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On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:
I don't see how this is an argument to be honest. Most of you are relating Starcraft 2 to various mainstream sports, which happen to be different in a number of ways.
In what way?
On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:
Koreans have the local sponsors who have been involved in competitive gaming before, they also have the GSL offering a lot of prize money.
This has been addressed above in the thread, but I guess you ignored it. Major Korean teams do not have sponsors, and do not have salaries. All the major western teams do have those things. Korea only has GSL. The international scene has dozens of tournaments, also with very high prizes and many more opportunities to earn that money for the players.
On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:
These two things offer Koreans the stability to play full time
Westerners have them too. But they're not living in two-room apartments sleeping on bunk beds and training for 10-12 hours per day. When they are supported by their salaries/prize money/streaming revenues/etc. there is no excuse for this.
On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:
Catz referred to EPS as being a good model, as Germany is a great country for eSports.
EPS is not a great model and there is no reason why you would want to emulate it. How has EPS grown the German e-sports scene? Where are the team houses and media attention? If you're going to use something as an example to be emulated, at least make sure it has succeeded...
On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:
With no support by local or even international sponsors, it is hard for a North American pro-gamer to play full time.
This is simply ignorant.
On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:
Additionally it is difficult to develop a name for these players if they are constantly being beat down by foreign (Korean) competition coming in from overseas.
If they're not good enough, competition-level players then they don't deserve to develop a name. Sports are about competition, winning, being the best. Not being the fastest swimmer in the kid's pool.
On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:
When you allow an infant industry (Starcraft 2 in North America) to be dominated by foreign competition (Korean players) then you will most likely kill off the infant industry, leaving simply the foreign competitors to take over.
I don't see any evidence for this hapenning. In fact, the tournaments consisting only of "foreigners" like the daily go4sc2, etc. do not draw very big crowds. On the other hand, TSL, with its mix of best players from ALL OVER THE WORLD draws 60k live viewers.
On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:
If North America is not allowed to build up a foundation, offering our pro-gamers the chance to find stable footing locally, building relationships with local sponsors and fans alike, then in the long run we wont see a North American Starcraft 2 scene.
How are they going to develop these things if nobody watches them play? Low levels of play attract small crowds, it's very simple. And you're not going to draw in new people by telling them to watch an amateur league instead of the competitive professionals.
On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:
Starcraft 2 is facing the same problem that plagued Brood War.
The situation in BW was the exact opposite. The international and Korean scenes WERE completely segregated, just like you want. Look where that led.
On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:
coming to North American tournaments and "stealing" all of the prize money from the local players
Finally, someone stopped tip-toeing around it and actually said what they feel. If you dedicate yourself to being good, winning competitions is THEFT. Come on dude...
On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:
it will be a KOREAN entity soon enough if the players in North America are constantly losing out (not just the tournaments - but the support that comes from those successful events) to Koreans
...and your solution to stop them from losing is to stop playing them? That's absurd. By lowering the level of play and competition, you will guarantee that Americans will never stop losing. If you increase the level of competition and force the international players to dedicate and commit themselves to the game just as much as the Koreans, their skills and level of play will rise. Not that it's very far anyway, judging by the WC results.
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On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:
I don't see how this is an argument to be honest. Most of you are relating Starcraft 2 to various mainstream sports, which happen to be different in a number of ways.
Leaving the poorly thought out analogies alone for the time being, I urge people to consider the following:
For Starcraft 2 to thrive in the west, there needs to be a foundation. Catz speaks a little about this, referring to the Koreans infrastructure and how they are already setup for success. A large portion of this foundation is the players being able to focus on Starcraft 2 full time.
Koreans have the local sponsors who have been involved in competitive gaming before, they also have the GSL offering a lot of prize money. These two things offer Koreans the stability to play full time, and build up an image and foundation to introduce mainstream people to the otherwise unknown sport.
In the west, you do not have this same level of support currently. Catz referred to EPS as being a good model, as Germany is a great country for eSports. He referred to socke being sponsored by local German sponsors who do not care whether or not he does well internationally, because they are not the international portion of the company or they are just local to Germany.
In North America however, we do not see this happening, not to a large degree anyhow. With no support by local or even international sponsors, it is hard for a North American pro-gamer to play full time. Additionally it is difficult to develop a name for these players if they are constantly being beat down by foreign (Korean) competition coming in from overseas.
When you allow an infant industry (Starcraft 2 in North America) to be dominated by foreign competition (Korean players) then you will most likely kill off the infant industry, leaving simply the foreign competitors to take over. This is what Catz is eluding to. If North America is not allowed to build up a foundation, offering our pro-gamers the chance to find stable footing locally, building relationships with local sponsors and fans alike, then in the long run we wont see a North American Starcraft 2 scene. Starcraft 2 is facing the same problem that plagued Brood War -yes I know some of the circumstances are different-.
Whether players are able to build up an image with national or regional fan-bases is only a small fraction of what the North American scene is facing.
We see such strong foreign competition coming from Korea in the form of players who have the experience, the support and time to be the best they can be, coming to North American tournaments and "stealing" all of the prize money from the local players. This leaves them with nothing, which then becomes a big issue.
To be honest, the MLG and IGN events seem to be handling this the best. MLG forces competitors to come over to North America in order to compete. And from a Halo:Reach perspective, all of MLG's sponsors are local, allowing the top halo teams to simply focus on their game and winning the local tournaments in order to gain recognition and support from fans and sponsors alike. This support allows them to focus full time on their profession.
IGN at the moment also only allows North American players, allowing those players to earn some money without fear of the "Korean domination" coming in and stealing it from underneath their noses, otherwise forcing the North American players to go back to handling 8 online poker tables at a time simply to make ends meet and try and get some practice time in for the next failure of an event.
Catz is right, and this really shouldn't be a huge back and forth discussion. eSports is a global entity YES; however, it will be a KOREAN entity soon enough if the players in North America are constantly losing out (not just the tournaments - but the support that comes from those successful events) to Koreans. North American players need support -sponsors/income/recognition/fan bases, etc.- in order to survive and be able to compete on a global scale much like the Koreans already do.
CatZ is right and wrong. I think he's right on the all the stuff you're saying he's right on, he's wrong criticizing NASL for being part of the problem. They are just a different format than the format he is asking to be provided, but they are good in their own way.
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On April 10 2011 15:23 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
I don't see how this is an argument to be honest. Most of you are relating Starcraft 2 to various mainstream sports, which happen to be different in a number of ways.
Leaving the poorly thought out analogies alone for the time being, I urge people to consider the following:
For Starcraft 2 to thrive in the west, there needs to be a foundation. Catz speaks a little about this, referring to the Koreans infrastructure and how they are already setup for success. A large portion of this foundation is the players being able to focus on Starcraft 2 full time.
Koreans have the local sponsors who have been involved in competitive gaming before, they also have the GSL offering a lot of prize money. These two things offer Koreans the stability to play full time, and build up an image and foundation to introduce mainstream people to the otherwise unknown sport.
In the west, you do not have this same level of support currently. Catz referred to EPS as being a good model, as Germany is a great country for eSports. He referred to socke being sponsored by local German sponsors who do not care whether or not he does well internationally, because they are not the international portion of the company or they are just local to Germany.
In North America however, we do not see this happening, not to a large degree anyhow. With no support by local or even international sponsors, it is hard for a North American pro-gamer to play full time. Additionally it is difficult to develop a name for these players if they are constantly being beat down by foreign (Korean) competition coming in from overseas.
When you allow an infant industry (Starcraft 2 in North America) to be dominated by foreign competition (Korean players) then you will most likely kill off the infant industry, leaving simply the foreign competitors to take over. This is what Catz is eluding to. If North America is not allowed to build up a foundation, offering our pro-gamers the chance to find stable footing locally, building relationships with local sponsors and fans alike, then in the long run we wont see a North American Starcraft 2 scene. Starcraft 2 is facing the same problem that plagued Brood War -yes I know some of the circumstances are different-.
Whether players are able to build up an image with national or regional fan-bases is only a small fraction of what the North American scene is facing.
We see such strong foreign competition coming from Korea in the form of players who have the experience, the support and time to be the best they can be, coming to North American tournaments and "stealing" all of the prize money from the local players. This leaves them with nothing, which then becomes a big issue.
To be honest, the MLG and IGN events seem to be handling this the best. MLG forces competitors to come over to North America in order to compete. And from a Halo:Reach perspective, all of MLG's sponsors are local, allowing the top halo teams to simply focus on their game and winning the local tournaments in order to gain recognition and support from fans and sponsors alike. This support allows them to focus full time on their profession.
IGN at the moment also only allows North American players, allowing those players to earn some money without fear of the "Korean domination" coming in and stealing it from underneath their noses, otherwise forcing the North American players to go back to handling 8 online poker tables at a time simply to make ends meet and try and get some practice time in for the next failure of an event.
Catz is right, and this really shouldn't be a huge back and forth discussion. eSports is a global entity YES; however, it will be a KOREAN entity soon enough if the players in North America are constantly losing out (not just the tournaments - but the support that comes from those successful events) to Koreans. North American players need support -sponsors/income/recognition/fan bases, etc.- in order to survive and be able to compete on a global scale much like the Koreans already do.
Please read Liquid'Nazgul's post. In a nutshell, there are more paid players in the west plus they are better paid than the average korean progamer. The problem is lack of commitment to an eSport career compared to koreans.
Getting a salary is irrelevant. More players are probably paid a salary in the west compared to Korea, but Koreans still have more full time players, hands down. My "support" is more than simply a salary, hell, I get a salary from Fnatic but that doesn't mean I am full time, nor does it mean the rest of Fnatic is either, players or staff.
However, when you look to Korean teams, maybe the Prime.WE, oGs, SlayerS, IM and StarTale players aren't all given a salary, or even many or any of them, but those teams ALL have a training house where they all live and practice FULL TIME, allowing them to compete at the level of which they do.
There needs to be a level of "support" in the west, so players can develop full time. That means sponsors, fans, teams, prize pools, and everything else under the sun that contributes to a players well-being needs to improve. Allowing Koreans to come in and dominate continuously impedes this process.
Also - Regarding that poll a couple posts above, that is absolutely ridiculous. Of course most, if not ALL people would want to see a mixed event with players from all over the world, who wouldn't? We are not discussing that at all. We are discussing whether or not the west require more..."localized" events and support in order to compete alongside the Koreans.
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On April 10 2011 10:37 Sami` wrote:
Also from a sponsor point of view:
Worldwide exposure > North American exposure
If we want to keep it real in terms of what really grows esports in a country its good sponsorship.
Maybe you didn't watch the same video I did, but he specifically brought up Socke and about his team's sponsors. They don't care if he wins MLG which would be an impressive accomplishment, but if he wins EPS it's awesome and that's what they want as I assume their target audience would be the german people.
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On April 10 2011 15:30 fams wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 15:23 LagT_T wrote:On April 10 2011 15:08 fams wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
I don't see how this is an argument to be honest. Most of you are relating Starcraft 2 to various mainstream sports, which happen to be different in a number of ways.
Leaving the poorly thought out analogies alone for the time being, I urge people to consider the following:
For Starcraft 2 to thrive in the west, there needs to be a foundation. Catz speaks a little about this, referring to the Koreans infrastructure and how they are already setup for success. A large portion of this foundation is the players being able to focus on Starcraft 2 full time.
Koreans have the local sponsors who have been involved in competitive gaming before, they also have the GSL offering a lot of prize money. These two things offer Koreans the stability to play full time, and build up an image and foundation to introduce mainstream people to the otherwise unknown sport.
In the west, you do not have this same level of support currently. Catz referred to EPS as being a good model, as Germany is a great country for eSports. He referred to socke being sponsored by local German sponsors who do not care whether or not he does well internationally, because they are not the international portion of the company or they are just local to Germany.
In North America however, we do not see this happening, not to a large degree anyhow. With no support by local or even international sponsors, it is hard for a North American pro-gamer to play full time. Additionally it is difficult to develop a name for these players if they are constantly being beat down by foreign (Korean) competition coming in from overseas.
When you allow an infant industry (Starcraft 2 in North America) to be dominated by foreign competition (Korean players) then you will most likely kill off the infant industry, leaving simply the foreign competitors to take over. This is what Catz is eluding to. If North America is not allowed to build up a foundation, offering our pro-gamers the chance to find stable footing locally, building relationships with local sponsors and fans alike, then in the long run we wont see a North American Starcraft 2 scene. Starcraft 2 is facing the same problem that plagued Brood War -yes I know some of the circumstances are different-.
Whether players are able to build up an image with national or regional fan-bases is only a small fraction of what the North American scene is facing.
We see such strong foreign competition coming from Korea in the form of players who have the experience, the support and time to be the best they can be, coming to North American tournaments and "stealing" all of the prize money from the local players. This leaves them with nothing, which then becomes a big issue.
To be honest, the MLG and IGN events seem to be handling this the best. MLG forces competitors to come over to North America in order to compete. And from a Halo:Reach perspective, all of MLG's sponsors are local, allowing the top halo teams to simply focus on their game and winning the local tournaments in order to gain recognition and support from fans and sponsors alike. This support allows them to focus full time on their profession.
IGN at the moment also only allows North American players, allowing those players to earn some money without fear of the "Korean domination" coming in and stealing it from underneath their noses, otherwise forcing the North American players to go back to handling 8 online poker tables at a time simply to make ends meet and try and get some practice time in for the next failure of an event.
Catz is right, and this really shouldn't be a huge back and forth discussion. eSports is a global entity YES; however, it will be a KOREAN entity soon enough if the players in North America are constantly losing out (not just the tournaments - but the support that comes from those successful events) to Koreans. North American players need support -sponsors/income/recognition/fan bases, etc.- in order to survive and be able to compete on a global scale much like the Koreans already do.
Please read Liquid'Nazgul's post. In a nutshell, there are more paid players in the west plus they are better paid than the average korean progamer. The problem is lack of commitment to an eSport career compared to koreans. Getting a salary is irrelevant. More players are probably paid a salary in the west compared to Korea, but Koreans still have more full time players, hands down. My "support" is more than simply a salary, hell, I get a salary from Fnatic but that doesn't mean I am full time, nor does it mean the rest of Fnatic is either, players or staff. However, when you look to Korean teams, maybe the Prime.WE, oGs, SlayerS, IM and StarTale players aren't all given a salary, or even many or any of them, but those teams ALL have a training house where they all live and practice FULL TIME, allowing them to compete at the level of which they do. There needs to be a level of "support" in the west, so players can develop full time. That means sponsors, fans, teams, prize pools, and everything else under the sun that contributes to a players well-being needs to improve. Allowing Koreans to come in and dominate continuously impedes this process. Also - Regarding that poll a couple posts above, that is absolutely ridiculous. Of course most, if not ALL people would want to see a mixed event with players from all over the world, who wouldn't? We are not discussing that at all. We are discussing whether or not the west require more..."localized" events and support in order to compete alongside the Koreans.
So the question is how much does it cost to run a korean style progamming house vs how much does it cost to maintain a full roster of western pro players. Because the only difference is how are the teams resources allocated, individually (western style) or collectively (korean style).
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The Koreans get 0 pay, sleep in bunk beds in crowded 2 room apartments, and probably eat ramen every day. They practice 12 hours a day for a chance to compete in ONE tournament with an extremely top heavy prize pool. So just because they are better because of their dedication, they should be excluded from an ONLINE tournament to "grow" North American e-sports? That's ridiculous.
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there aren't 50 NA players worth watching. inviting koreans/euros is the best thing NASL has done.
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Why does it always have to be Korea vs The World? From the start of SC2 I have cared very little about the country in which a player is from and more and more about how much I actually enjoy watching them play.
I don't think I would be staying up all night watching the GSL if it wasn't for the great "cast of characters" they have been able to bring together. That almost always includes non-Koreans. Furthermore I wouldn't be as interested in the NASL if not for the inclusion of pieces of that cast being brought in with many others I enjoy.
It is unrealistic, in my opinion, to think that "Western E-sports" will ever explode and be as big as the Korean scene. When you factor in this economy and the sheer size of the geographic area it simply prohibits it. That's not to say it cannot succeed in the West, I really hope it does, but I think the goals and expectations need to be realistic. It doesn't need to compete with South Korea to be great. Striving to be the next South Korea just feels like it will end in disappointment.
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On April 10 2011 16:28 Daozzt wrote:
The Koreans get 0 pay, sleep in bunk beds in crowded 2 room apartments, and probably eat ramen every day. They practice 12 hours a day for a chance to compete in ONE tournament with an extremely top heavy prize pool. So just because they are better because of their dedication, they should be excluded from an ONLINE tournament to "grow" North American e-sports? That's ridiculous.
Well said, the video sounds like a bunch of whining. The growth of esports in the west is not dependent on who's playing, but the quality of the game and general interest society has for sc2.
Sometimes I doubt sc2 will ever be a major esports in the west like it is in korea just simply because of our cultural differences. In America and Europe, computer games are for nerds and football is for the cool ppl; in Korea it obviously is not seen this way. I agree we shouldn't give up trying to make this into a sport as the culture may change in the future, but saying that the koreans shouldn't come b/c it hurts esports in the west is just nonsense and is really about keeping the money within the west.
This is starcraft: may the best player win.
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I really enjoyed CatZ's discussion and completely agree with it. I really think some NA events should be strictly for just NA. Let it grow, then offer foreigners to come in.
In addition I like how ROOT has set their goal to be the number 1 NA team. I feel they are/have done that winning the recent SGL/SCL leagues.
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agreed with Catz, but this was my standpoint before listening to this
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Wow... I disagree so whole heartedly with CatZ. If your scared of the Koreans taking away potential prize money, do something about it. Koreans are human being's just like everyone else.
IMO in order for E-Sports to be a western phenomenon, westerners must be able to compete at the same level as Koreans. Why reward players for incompetence, as strong as a word as that may be. The only skill gap here is between the players themselves, not nationality.
Starcraft 2 is a global competition just like any other forms of competition that take place around the world. Are you going to exclude a Russian hockey player from entering the National Hockey League because he's going to dominate? No. They deserve to compete just like everyone else. They are made up of the same chemistry as every human being on this Earth.
Starcraft 2 should be global, and not segregated like Starcraft 1 was. In fact, that is definitely part of the reason why it failed in the west in first place i'm sorry to say. To continue that practice would spell nothing but disaster, and only damage the credibility of SC2 as an E-Sport in the west...
I say no to truncating the competition. It only favors incompetence, and caters to a delusional idea that just because you hail from a certain country, your automatically the better person, which is definitely NOT the case.
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I really like what Catz has to say here.
The Koreans are amazing players there is no doubt about that. On top of them taking spots from non Korean players though I think there may be other issues that come into play. Such as lag, I remember after the first round of TSL recently hearing about lag issues.
Either way though, NASL is doing something HUGE for the community and eSports and while there is no one out there including me that will agree with all of their player choices, its still an amazing thing for eSports!
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I agree with Catz.
Koreans should be able to participate in the NASL. But they shouldnt be able to do it just by spending a few hours a week playing their games. Yes i realize that they are doing the same thing that NA's are doing, and it's not like i have a logical argument against this.
But having someone like MC just spend a few hours and then winning the whole tournament, just seems, idk, anticlimactic? It obviously shouldnt be a LAN event from the start either, nobody wants that.
But if the tournament is just dominated by Koreans it just isnt as exciting, you might aswell just watch the GSL then.
On April 10 2011 16:46 EnderCraft wrote:
Wow... I disagree so whole heartedly with CatZ. If your scared of the Koreans taking away potential prize money, do something about it. Koreans are human being's just like everyone else.
IMO in order for E-Sports to be a western phenomenon, westerners must be able to compete at the same level as Koreans. Why reward players for incompetence, as strong as a word as that may be. The only skill gap here is between the players themselves, not nationality.
Starcraft 2 is a global competition just like any other forms of competition that take place around the world. Are you going to exclude a Russian hockey player from entering the National Hockey League because he's going to dominate? No. They deserve to compete just like everyone else. They are made up of the same chemistry as every human being on this Earth.
Starcraft 2 should be global, and not segregated like Starcraft 1 was. In fact, that is definitely part of the reason why it failed in the west in first place i'm sorry to say. To continue that practice would spell nothing but disaster, and only damage the credibility of SC2 as an E-Sport in the west...
I say no to truncating the competition. It only favors incompetence, and caters to a delusional idea that just because you hail from a certain country, your automatically the better person, which is definitely NOT the case.
Uh, well if he wanted to participate in the NHL then he would have to move to America. Imagine if he could do it from Russia... You cant even compare hockey to this.
It's not about skill levels, it's that someone can play in the NASL without committing to anything. If you want to play in the GSL then you have to go to Korea. Yes the NA players dont have to commit to anything either but that's why it's called the NASL, right?
MLG, GSL, ESL (EPS), these are local tournaments, and if you just have 1 guy dominating everything, whether he is NA, EU or KR, it just makes it boring. Every sport in the world has local leagues. They arent as prestigious, but they dont need to be. If this was called the "World Championship Of the Best Players in the World at Starcraft" then yea, you should invite everyone, but it isnt.
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On April 10 2011 17:25 Deadlyfish wrote:I agree with Catz. Koreans should be able to participate in the NASL. But they shouldnt be able to do it just by spending a few hours a week playing their games. Yes i realize that they are doing the same thing that NA's are doing, and it's not like i have a logical argument against this. But having someone like MC just spend a few hours and then winning the whole tournament, just seems, idk, anticlimactic? It obviously shouldnt be a LAN event from the start either, nobody wants that. But if the tournament is just dominated by Koreans it just isnt as exciting, you might aswell just watch the GSL then. Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 16:46 EnderCraft wrote:
Wow... I disagree so whole heartedly with CatZ. If your scared of the Koreans taking away potential prize money, do something about it. Koreans are human being's just like everyone else.
IMO in order for E-Sports to be a western phenomenon, westerners must be able to compete at the same level as Koreans. Why reward players for incompetence, as strong as a word as that may be. The only skill gap here is between the players themselves, not nationality.
Starcraft 2 is a global competition just like any other forms of competition that take place around the world. Are you going to exclude a Russian hockey player from entering the National Hockey League because he's going to dominate? No. They deserve to compete just like everyone else. They are made up of the same chemistry as every human being on this Earth.
Starcraft 2 should be global, and not segregated like Starcraft 1 was. In fact, that is definitely part of the reason why it failed in the west in first place i'm sorry to say. To continue that practice would spell nothing but disaster, and only damage the credibility of SC2 as an E-Sport in the west...
I say no to truncating the competition. It only favors incompetence, and caters to a delusional idea that just because you hail from a certain country, your automatically the better person, which is definitely NOT the case. Uh, well if he wanted to participate in the NHL then he would have to move to America. Imagine if he could do it from Russia... You cant even compare hockey to this. It's not about skill levels, it's that someone can play in the NASL without committing to anything. If you want to play in the GSL then you have to go to Korea. Yes the NA players dont have to commit to anything either but that's why it's called the NASL, right? MLG, GSL, ESL (EPS), these are local tournaments, and if you just have 1 guy dominating everything, whether he is NA, EU or KR, it just makes it boring. Every sport in the world has local leagues. They arent as prestigious, but they dont need to be. If this was called the "World Championship Of the Best Players in the World at Starcraft" then yea, you should invite everyone, but it isnt.
You mean the NorthAmerica Amateur Starcraft League? However I agree, it does suck to have to go all the way to Korea and live there to actually compete. But to deny willing Koreans to participate outright is just plane wrong. It honestly just makes it easier on the (western) players, and lowers the skill ceiling for the overall tournament. When frankly, any good PROFESSIONAL competition should have the best of the best. To not have the best of the best lowers the professional credibility of any tournament. Your always going to have the Pro's, and the amateurs. Not everyone is going to be the best of the best. And if the NASL is a so called possessional Starcraft tournament, then amateurs do not belong.
I don't care if oGsMC wins the NASL 20 times. Western players have been playing SC2 professorially just as long as he has, there is absolutely no excuse for incompetence. The only thing that is hurting the western progamers is themselves.
I admit, the NHL analogy was kind of bad. My point is that truncating the competition of any possessional competition will always lower its credibility overall. Especially when your calling the tournament a professional venue.
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i want to be the best player i can be, and i want to play vs the best, I am looking forward to playing vs top koreans and showing my stuff. If the koreans own non-koreans with the 2-second delay lag then we don't deserve to win nasl/tsl lol
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On April 10 2011 17:47 drewbie.root wrote:
i want to be the best player i can be, and i want to play vs the best, I am looking forward to playing vs top koreans and showing my stuff. If the koreans own non-koreans with the 2-second delay lag then we don't deserve to win nasl/tsl lol
AMEN!!! This is the mentality to have ^_^
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On April 10 2011 17:43 EnderCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 17:25 Deadlyfish wrote:I agree with Catz. Koreans should be able to participate in the NASL. But they shouldnt be able to do it just by spending a few hours a week playing their games. Yes i realize that they are doing the same thing that NA's are doing, and it's not like i have a logical argument against this. But having someone like MC just spend a few hours and then winning the whole tournament, just seems, idk, anticlimactic? It obviously shouldnt be a LAN event from the start either, nobody wants that. But if the tournament is just dominated by Koreans it just isnt as exciting, you might aswell just watch the GSL then. On April 10 2011 16:46 EnderCraft wrote:
Wow... I disagree so whole heartedly with CatZ. If your scared of the Koreans taking away potential prize money, do something about it. Koreans are human being's just like everyone else.
IMO in order for E-Sports to be a western phenomenon, westerners must be able to compete at the same level as Koreans. Why reward players for incompetence, as strong as a word as that may be. The only skill gap here is between the players themselves, not nationality.
Starcraft 2 is a global competition just like any other forms of competition that take place around the world. Are you going to exclude a Russian hockey player from entering the National Hockey League because he's going to dominate? No. They deserve to compete just like everyone else. They are made up of the same chemistry as every human being on this Earth.
Starcraft 2 should be global, and not segregated like Starcraft 1 was. In fact, that is definitely part of the reason why it failed in the west in first place i'm sorry to say. To continue that practice would spell nothing but disaster, and only damage the credibility of SC2 as an E-Sport in the west...
I say no to truncating the competition. It only favors incompetence, and caters to a delusional idea that just because you hail from a certain country, your automatically the better person, which is definitely NOT the case. Uh, well if he wanted to participate in the NHL then he would have to move to America. Imagine if he could do it from Russia... You cant even compare hockey to this. It's not about skill levels, it's that someone can play in the NASL without committing to anything. If you want to play in the GSL then you have to go to Korea. Yes the NA players dont have to commit to anything either but that's why it's called the NASL, right? MLG, GSL, ESL (EPS), these are local tournaments, and if you just have 1 guy dominating everything, whether he is NA, EU or KR, it just makes it boring. Every sport in the world has local leagues. They arent as prestigious, but they dont need to be. If this was called the "World Championship Of the Best Players in the World at Starcraft" then yea, you should invite everyone, but it isnt. You mean the NorthAmerica Amateur Starcraft League? However I agree, it does suck to have to go all the way to Korea and live there to actually compete. But to deny willing Koreans to participate outright is just plane wrong. It honestly just makes it easier on the (western) players, and lowers the skill ceiling for the overall tournament. When frankly, any good PROFESSIONAL competition should have the best of the best. To not have the best of the best lowers the professional credibility of any tournament. Your always going to have the Pro's, and the amateurs. Not everyone is going to be the best of the best. And if the NASL is a so called possessional Starcraft tournament, then amateurs do not belong. I don't care if oGsMC wins the NASL 20 times. Western players have been playing SC2 professorially just as long as he has, there is absolutely no excuse for incompetence. The only thing that is hurting the western progamers is themselves. I admit, the NHL analogy was kind of bad. My point is that truncating the competition of any possessional competition will always lower its credibility overall.
Koreans are obviously allowed to participate, but i just dont think that they should be able to do it from Korea just spending a few hours a week playing a few games.
It just all depends on how you view the NASL. I think it should be the North American league, where we see the best of the best of the North Americans. Just like GSL is the best Koreans, and
EPS is the German league. Anyone can compete in the EPS, but they have to move to germany, like a few players already did. Do you think EPS should allow top Koreans to participate from Korea?
My favorite players are NA players, i don't really care as much about Koreans, Africans or Australian players.
I guess some people would rather want an international league, which is fine, i'd love seeing that as well.
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On April 10 2011 16:46 EnderCraft wrote:
Wow... I disagree so whole heartedly with CatZ. If your scared of the Koreans taking away potential prize money, do something about it. Koreans are human being's just like everyone else.
IMO in order for E-Sports to be a western phenomenon, westerners must be able to compete at the same level as Koreans. Why reward players for incompetence, as strong as a word as that may be. The only skill gap here is between the players themselves, not nationality.
Starcraft 2 is a global competition just like any other forms of competition that take place around the world. Are you going to exclude a Russian hockey player from entering the National Hockey League because he's going to dominate? No. They deserve to compete just like everyone else. They are made up of the same chemistry as every human being on this Earth.
Starcraft 2 should be global, and not segregated like Starcraft 1 was. In fact, that is definitely part of the reason why it failed in the west in first place i'm sorry to say. To continue that practice would spell nothing but disaster, and only damage the credibility of SC2 as an E-Sport in the west...
I say no to truncating the competition. It only favors incompetence, and caters to a delusional idea that just because you hail from a certain country, your automatically the better person, which is definitely NOT the case.
I think there's a balance point. There should be some online global leagues like NASL and TSL3, and some local leagues like IGN and MLG. CatZ is right, you need the local leagues to contribute to the success of the local gamers so that their only option isn't competing on the highest stage if they want to make a living off of pro gaming. Of course, to really be successful you need to rule the highest stage as well, and that's just the reality for gaming.
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NASL is a global league. It's run by north Americans, and targeted primarily at north American fans, but it's a highest level professional league, and it's designed to have international players competing for their rank in the world. It's not a local tournament. You do need local leagues, but we need global leagues as well, and NASL has clearly thrown their hat into the latter, not the former.
It's not wrong for CatZ to say "we need local leagues" it is wrong for him to say "NASL is bad because it is not a local league". NASL was not designed to be a local league, it's supposed to showcase to NA fans, the highest level of play in the entire world.
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EPT
