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+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2011 02:42 skipdog172 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:39 Icx wrote:
Okay what about the other person, let's call him Icx.
Icx is far from a talented rts player, and he will never be in the top of something, but he still wants to get good at the game as possible.
Icx is also very competitive, and likes the competitive aspect of starcraft2
Icx is in diamond, not the best out there, but not a bronze league newbie anymore.
Icx wants to know how much he has improved, how far he is progressing, and w/l ratio is part of that, why does he have to have the same rules enforced on to him by bob the bronze leaguer?
My point is, yes everything in your post is correct, but imo blizzard went to far with enforcing it onto a to large group of players.
I can understand it for bronze/Silver/gold, but everyone I know in plat/diamond is actually playing to get better, and isn't seeing this is just a pure "I wanna be a battlecruiser commander".
Why not have a system where they are disabled by default and you can actually turn them on if you so wish?
Or enforce them only on the casual players, for example bronze/silver (and if you look at sc2 ranks, like 40% of the community is in bronze, and my guess is that is actually that large more casual crowd that doesn't want to see their w/l ratio or care about it) This is where I disagree. I don't believe your win/loss ratio is ANY sort of proof or indication of how much you have improved. I think too many people hold themselves back because they are trying to improve their win/loss ratio, as to them, that is what signifies that they are a good player or that they are improving. At first I didn't like this change, but now I think it is fine. I don't need to see my ratio. You should be able to point out the weaknesses of your play, and if you aren't willing to try new things, or NOT CARE about your ratio, it can hurt your progress in improving. All your ratio really represents, is how far away you are currently deviating from your hidden MMR. The fact is, you are going to end up near a 50/50 win/loss ratio and thinking that since you have won a string of games and now have a 55% winning percentage, doesn't necessarily mean you are improving or have increased in skill. Players need to judge that for themselves by analyzing their own play and analyzing why they won or loss the games they have played. You don't need to know your w/l ratio to judge how much you are improving. You should focus on analyzing your play and knowing your weak points. Boasting about your 60% w/l ratio is meaningless or thinking you are good because of it, is purely detrimental IMHO.
Ok, why display the number of wins then ? Cut it out too.
edit: Im envious that the person above me has twice as much wins as me. How embarrassing !
Is this next ?
edit2: Oh, and yes i hate losing. I love a good WL ratio. Yes i am scared of playing ladder because i dont want to ruin my stats. It stresses me. It worries me. Sometimes it keeps me from playing. But, all these things are my personal problems. I need to get over it. I dont need to be soothed artificialy, cause thats just lying to yourself. Its no solution for the actuall problem. It like vomiting on the floor and putting a carpet above it rather than cleaning it..
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On April 14 2011 02:46 creepcolony wrote:
Ok, why display the number of wins then ? Cut it out too.
They removed the losses because they were finding people avoided playing because of the number. That didn't apply to wins, so why would they remove that?
I think it's kind of a loopy move to remove losses regardless of that reason, but the more people whine about their meaningless win/loss ratios being uncorrelated with their promotions, the more I get behind it.
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United States12240 Posts
On April 14 2011 02:46 creepcolony wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2011 02:42 skipdog172 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:39 Icx wrote:
Okay what about the other person, let's call him Icx.
Icx is far from a talented rts player, and he will never be in the top of something, but he still wants to get good at the game as possible.
Icx is also very competitive, and likes the competitive aspect of starcraft2
Icx is in diamond, not the best out there, but not a bronze league newbie anymore.
Icx wants to know how much he has improved, how far he is progressing, and w/l ratio is part of that, why does he have to have the same rules enforced on to him by bob the bronze leaguer?
My point is, yes everything in your post is correct, but imo blizzard went to far with enforcing it onto a to large group of players.
I can understand it for bronze/Silver/gold, but everyone I know in plat/diamond is actually playing to get better, and isn't seeing this is just a pure "I wanna be a battlecruiser commander".
Why not have a system where they are disabled by default and you can actually turn them on if you so wish?
Or enforce them only on the casual players, for example bronze/silver (and if you look at sc2 ranks, like 40% of the community is in bronze, and my guess is that is actually that large more casual crowd that doesn't want to see their w/l ratio or care about it) This is where I disagree. I don't believe your win/loss ratio is ANY sort of proof or indication of how much you have improved. I think too many people hold themselves back because they are trying to improve their win/loss ratio, as to them, that is what signifies that they are a good player or that they are improving. At first I didn't like this change, but now I think it is fine. I don't need to see my ratio. You should be able to point out the weaknesses of your play, and if you aren't willing to try new things, or NOT CARE about your ratio, it can hurt your progress in improving. All your ratio really represents, is how far away you are currently deviating from your hidden MMR. The fact is, you are going to end up near a 50/50 win/loss ratio and thinking that since you have won a string of games and now have a 55% winning percentage, doesn't necessarily mean you are improving or have increased in skill. Players need to judge that for themselves by analyzing their own play and analyzing why they won or loss the games they have played. You don't need to know your w/l ratio to judge how much you are improving. You should focus on analyzing your play and knowing your weak points. Boasting about your 60% w/l ratio is meaningless or thinking you are good because of it, is purely detrimental IMHO. Ok, why display the number of wins then ? Cut it out too. edit: Im envious that the person above me has twice as much wins as me. How embarrassing ! Is this next ? edit2: Oh, and yes i hate losing. I love a good WL ratio. Yes i am scared of playing ladder because i dont want to ruin my stats. It stresses me. It worries me. Sometimes it keeps me from playing. But, all these things are my personal problems. I need to get over it. I dont need to be soothed artificialy, cause thats just lying to yourself. Its no solution for the actuall problem. It like vomiting on the floor and putting a carpet above it rather than cleaning it..
The wins are at least somewhat relevant because they can be used in tracking portrait or achievement unlocks. I think they also had to show something or it would look even more barren than it does.
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When I came to Starcraft 2 I was completely new to gaming, as a result I dropped below bronze zero MMR-wise during my first 70-ish games with a win percentage <20%. Then something clicked - there were enough minerals on the map that building an extra barracks was definitely worth it to get more units faster and wouldn't cause me to be disadvantaged, these things called control groups existed and I could set multiple buildings to them. It took until I was at 80W80L before I started getting points but I knew I was improving, not just having a couple of good days because my win percentage was changing so quickly. Edit: I went from ~10W60L to 80W80L in the first week of summer break, it wasn't just match-making working out where I was.
I liked being able to see my stats, and those of people I played against. If Blizzard wants the default to be that you can't see it to save a few egos that's fine, but we should have the option to see our own/display it.
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Russian Federation396 Posts
wheres the tl;dr
 hah
User was warned for this post
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i disagree
User was temp banned for this post.
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Blizzard should make it optional. Options are always awesome. Awesomeness represents options. Only if the new Deus Ex will follow the path of enlightenment...
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On April 14 2011 00:55 Lysenko wrote:
The MMRs of top-5 silver (in an active division) and mid-gold are similar because of overlap between the two leagues. Most of my opponents are mid-gold, but I would have to do slightly better than that for a promotion. Still, it's a reasonable guess that my MMR is about 50th %-ile based on whom I'm playing.
(Also, according to sc2ranks.com, 55% of people who have played in the last 7 days are in bronze and silver, so high silver is pretty darn close to 50th percentile.) As I understand the system, mid-gold cuts the active players in half. May be the system does not count anyone who plays some games every week-end as active, so one may be need X games per week to be considered active. I don't know the "active" criterion. May be its directly related to the unspent bonus pool.
Your mid-gold opponents are may be they are on the way down to silver and get demoted soon and their division standing is just a bonus pool effect. As I understood the game, you would be promoted to gold if you stabilize in one of the two gold level tiers. Since active players get better, you must of course get better faster than the rest to be promoted.
I don't claim to know all the ladder details though.
On April 14 2011 01:01 Lysenko wrote:
It's not like removing the loss statistic actually makes the games easier. If it did, that would be "hand-holding." Yes. And one still loses points after a loss. The removal of the total games counter does not help to get any nooby or mediocre medals.
The more I think about the ladder, the more I like several decsions about what you can not see or do. It keeps the focus on the game – where it should be. We don't need an MMR improving metagame.
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On April 14 2011 02:39 creepcolony wrote:
This descision by blizzard makes me rage SO hard, its hard to believe.
This thing is pretty simple over all:
If you dont get over losing some games, its your problem no one elses. And its not only your problem it even is your fault.
I can not believe that im missing information, because some people cant stand seeing their loses. Some folks probably can't stand to see their losses. But this is only a part of the reason why Blizzard removed it. While only some people can't stand a big loss counter, most people still misinterpret the win ratio. Removing it is not just pleasing the guys who can't stand to see how n00by they are. It gets everyone below Master out of the mindset to keep a good win ratio. Before you improve, you normally get into a small slump. With no win ratio displayed, you are not afraid of that slump. It underlines that the ladder below master league is a large playground where you find people to play against. It encourages you to improve the right way. Just playing it safe every time to avoid losses will not help anyone in the long term.
On April 14 2011 02:39 creepcolony wrote:
Thats ridiculous. That is a shame. What do 100 wins mean if i dont know how much i lost to win this 100 games ? Its worth NOTHING. For 100 wins below Master League you can expect to get about 100 losses. This is how the match-making system is designed. Since it is designed for a win ratio close 50%, a win ratio display just indicates how good the match making system works. It does not indicate a particular skill (unless you are a pro on the way to master, but in master you see your losses anyway.)
On April 14 2011 02:39 creepcolony wrote:
This descision reflects what this world has come to i a very distinct way. And this isnt even something to discuss about. Its absolutley obvious whats right and whats wrong. Sorry, but the only thing which is obvious is that you did not understand the purpose of the match making for any non-extreme skill level. Given you play enough games, the match making will you get close to 50% regardless. This renders a loss counter meaningless.
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On April 14 2011 02:42 skipdog172 wrote:
You don't need to know your w/l ratio to judge how much you are improving. You should focus on analyzing your play and knowing your weak points. Boasting about your 60% w/l ratio is meaningless or thinking you are good because of it, is purely detrimental IMHO. Quoted for great justice!
How would a win ratio metagame work? I could play customs versus friends until I feel ready. Then I could brag around with a good win ratio. If I would just play on ladder, I still would be close to 50% but my skill would be on the same level. There is no way to avoid losses, given a fair matchmaking in place. But many guys are having the mindset that it would be good to hide losses (making a new account in BW or WC3, practice in custom games in SC2.)
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Great OP, some good points raised there :D
I feel like Diamond league should be permitted to view their W-L as well, simply because that league definitely features a group of players who are most likely quite dedicated to reaching the master league, and would appreciate being able to see their progress. But for lower-level players, hiding the W-L is an acceptable decision, not one I entirely agree on, but one I can see good points in as well as bad.
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On April 14 2011 18:12 GGPope wrote:
Great OP, some good points raised there :D
I feel like Diamond league should be permitted to view their W-L as well, simply because that league definitely features a group of players who are most likely quite dedicated to reaching the master league, and would appreciate being able to see their progress. But for lower-level players, hiding the W-L is an acceptable decision, not one I entirely agree on, but one I can see good points in as well as bad.
How would seeing either 45-55 or 60-50 tell you anything about your own progress? There's an easy way to check if you are close to masters, just look at the profiles of the people you faced.
Edit: I have the feeling most people who complain about the removal of the losses just don't like to accept change. So far most of the negative points brought up have been rebutted or am i wrong?
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On April 14 2011 18:12 GGPope wrote:
Great OP, some good points raised there :D
I feel like Diamond league should be permitted to view their W-L as well, simply because that league definitely features a group of players who are most likely quite dedicated to reaching the master league, and would appreciate being able to see their progress. But for lower-level players, hiding the W-L is an acceptable decision, not one I entirely agree on, but one I can see good points in as well as bad.
I'm in diamond, and my goal is masters, and I track my progress like this - win streaks and when i meet a masters and lose I know im not good enough, when I meet a masters and win I know I'm getting better. And as the above said what diffrence would w/l ratio do for your progress? I mean if you are winning against higher ranked opponents you are improving.
And since my goal is masters the only thing I need to do, is win every game.
Even if I have 100% win ratio and still in diamond it doesn't matter -> I'm still not in masters.
Even if I have 10% win ratio and still in diamond it doesn't matter -> I'm still not in masters.
Even if my win ratio has increased with 4% it doesn't matter -> I'm still not in masters.
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On April 14 2011 02:39 creepcolony wrote:
I can not believe that im missing information, because some people cant stand seeing their loses. Thats ridiculous. That is a shame. What do 100 wins mean if i dont know how much i lost to win this 100 games ? Its worth NOTHING. Blizzard actually could randomly generate a number that shows you how awesome you are. What should i tell friends of me to compare ? I have 100 wins ? I can better say nothing at all its the very same thing.
Win loss ration DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING unless you are so good or so bad that the match maker can't find enough equally skilled opponents for you to play against. If your w/l ratio is not 50% that can only be because:
1. Your sample size of played games is not big enough..
2. The match engine is wrong about your skill.. For example, you have improved by playing a ton of non ladder games and the match engine has to catch up.
It wont be because of your skill, because your skill == opponent skill untill you are very very good.
If you like to see the losses count, thats fine, but please do not act like it means anything..
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the new ladder thing is great if you're not happy about it how about make a .txt and write all the losses that you have..? not everyone in starcraft are as educated and as so call "brave" as TL.... there is nothing to lose basically and when u win u can acutally see it and for people who say win dont matter etc etc skill is the same is not correct because not everyone is like you and as smart as you, they just want to play. If you want to be pro you can just play and get better not look at your win/lose ratio OMG i have 70% win ratio i must be very very very good
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Games like this only live for years after release because the fan-base and community is large and commited - and if making the ladder more gentle achieves this - how can anyone explain?
Your efforts in the game are for fun only, unless you are a pro-gamer. And if you are a pro-gamer the ladder means very little to you, you pay your bills by winning tournaments, and if you are aspiring to be a pro-gamer you make your name by winning smaller cups and tournaments.
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On April 14 2011 19:58 resilve wrote:
Games like this only live for years after release because the fan-base and community is large and commited - and if making the ladder more gentle achieves this - how can anyone explain?
Your efforts in the game are for fun only, unless you are a pro-gamer. And if you are a pro-gamer the ladder means very little to you, you pay your bills by winning tournaments, and if you are aspiring to be a pro-gamer you make your name by winning smaller cups and tournaments.
True for many but weak-minded people (who account for most of the population, IMO) also pay the bills and Blizzard wants to keep them around.
I miss the W:L ratio a lot but I think ultimately it's less important than looking at someone's recent games and the caliber of the opponents in those games.
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I understand the noob idea, but people that are in diamond aren't really noobs anymore and have probably had the game for a fair while and like it enough to recommend it to others, I think it should have only had been for bronze-gold, but still was a good idea and I like the top 8 and top 50 things.
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Taking a small part of something, reviewing that specific part, then stating "this is why [entire part] is good/bad" is easy fault to do but might get you flak. I agree with your points, but I still think blizzard failed larger than they ever had with any game doing bnet 0.2 ladder. a simple "fitness" level would suffice, all the divisions and points and wins really clog it up for newbies not make it better.
I also don't understand why anyone would compare it to the scbw ladder and not the wc3 ladder, I would think that can be classified as ignorant. Wc3 ladder might not have been superduper, but in that game you could create a new account any time, which is a better solution and should be in this game too.
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On April 14 2011 12:55 DigitalisDestructi wrote:
Blizzard should make it optional. Options are always awesome. This option would still be used by a lot of folks and they would continue to stay in the wrong mindset.
To care about avoiding losses in the ladder always means to play less ladder. You may be play some customs instead or not at all. This cannot be the goal for a match making system.
At first, it sounds good: Give the player the option. It sounds also good: Offer match-making for unranked custom games. But at the end of the day it would be counterproductive to the ladder.
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EPT
