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On April 14 2011 20:53 osten wrote:
Taking a small part of something, reviewing that specific part, then stating "this is why [entire part] is good/bad" is easy fault to do but might get you flak. I agree with your points, but I still think blizzard failed larger than they ever had with any game doing bnet 0.2 ladder. a simple "fitness" level would suffice, all the divisions and points and wins really clog it up for newbies not make it better.
I also don't understand why anyone would compare it to the scbw ladder and not the wc3 ladder, I would think that can be classified as ignorant. Wc3 ladder might not have been superduper, but in that game you could create a new account any time, which is a better solution and should be in this game too. If you can make new accs, you can bash some newbs. This may be is fun for the smurfer, but who wants to get bashed by smurfers?
WC3 then tried to avoid this with setting ELL (expected ladder level) for new accounts to 25. What happened? The smurfer first left many games in a row, getting down this ELL and then began to bash noobs. There was no punishment as everone could start a new acc any time.
To get consistent skill rating, any game key should be bound to one account. This of course requires 1 key per player, so a shared key use of two gamers with different skill is not feasible. While some see this as Blizzards plan to increase sales, I think it is still the overall better system because it prevents a lot of smurfing.
The Bnet 2.0 does have its drawbacks, but overall I think it is superior to any previous Blizzard ladder system. The WC3 system for example never really managed to get me enough opponents who as bad as I am. WC3 did provide some statistics but they did not make me a better player. Arrange team handling in WC3 is not done well. I did not see my ELL (MMR) either, I just saw my level and XP.
The new system is overall better for most players. You don't have to handle accounts when you login, you just have the account. The same one is used for WoW and any future Blizzard games. Account security concerns can be solved with an authenticator.
After a match you can chat to the opponent, I missed this feature in WC3. You also have some data and diagrams to analyze. The system even tells you the BO of the opponent! You also have the replay functions. While shared replay viewing (provided in BW but not WC3) is still missing, the detailed information tabs and even 1st-person-camera allow you to analyze all mistakes you made. I don't see the SC2 online service integration as a letdown.
Why do people worry about statistics like win ratio if they have much more useful data at their hands?
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On April 14 2011 21:22 [F_]aths wrote:
The Bnet 2.0 does have its drawbacks, but overall I think it is superior to any previous Blizzard ladder system.
I think the point that people need to take away is that all the changes, the changes people like and the ones they don't, were put in place because of specific goals on the part of the developers, and retaining lower-league players is a big one.
That said, most of the people who have been upset about this or that feature (or lack of a feature) have had desires for the system that differ from those of the developers. That's normal, but it doesn't mean it's a bad system, it just means it's not optimized for you.
Honestly, given what the devs said their goals were up-front at Blizzcon 2009, I'd say they pretty much nailed them.
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United States12275 Posts
On April 15 2011 00:05 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 21:22 [F_]aths wrote:
The Bnet 2.0 does have its drawbacks, but overall I think it is superior to any previous Blizzard ladder system. I think the point that people need to take away is that all the changes, the changes people like and the ones they don't, were put in place because of specific goals on the part of the developers, and retaining lower-league players is a big one. That said, most of the people who have been upset about this or that feature (or lack of a feature) have had desires for the system that differ from those of the developers. That's normal, but it doesn't mean it's a bad system, it just means it's not optimized for you.Honestly, given what the devs said their goals were up-front at Blizzcon 2009, I'd say they pretty much nailed them.
A major difficulty on the part of the developers and community team is accurately explaining the reasons for these changes and identifying why they are improvements over the old system, while at the same time being upfront about bugs in the system so players are aware of what their ultimate vision is.
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wait did they seriously take out your total losses? I thought they were still visible in your division ladder?
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On April 15 2011 00:57 War Horse wrote:
wait did they seriously take out your total losses? I thought they were still visible in your division ladder?
It only lists wins and the amount of points now. The only way you can view loses now is if you're in Master league and up.
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On April 15 2011 00:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:
A major difficulty on the part of the developers and community team is accurately explaining the reasons for these changes and identifying why they are improvements over the old system, while at the same time being upfront about bugs in the system so players are aware of what their ultimate vision is.
I agree to some extent. Blizzard has a culture of not committing to any future changes in public, on the principle that it avoids disappointing people if they miss a promised delivery date. Arguably, though, they sometimes take this so far that it can become counterproductive.
That said, I know you and I both attended sessions at Blizzcon over two years that covered their broad design goals with their ladder system pretty clearly, sessions which are available unedited, including Q&A, on Youtube. It's not that this information isn't out there for everyone to see, it's that there's a tendency for people who have different personal desires for the system than those goals dictate to tune out what they see and hear about why the system is the way it is.
I'd like to see my loss count on the ladder, because I know that when that number increases, I personally play more. However, they explained straight-out in their own forums why they were making that change (because some players find it intimidating) and simply because my experience is different, I'm not going to call them "stupid" for it, as some people have.
(Edit: To put it another way, it makes no sense to equate "this system isn't primarily designed to serve the interests of me and my immediate peers" with "this system is broken.")
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Well written story imho. You are talking mostly about MMR and not taking into account the flows (which are flows in my opinion) for example you cant see your MMR nor can your see your losses or even how many games you have played in total which is very frustrating atleast for me and many many other people.
e: im not really interested in my winratio
The display of losses makes you want to avoid losses. This is the tournament mindset, where you show off what you are capable of. The ladder is a playground. You should not try to avoid losses, but to learn from your losses.
I get pressure of ladder from the loss itself and getting -points and lower MMR and chance of BM. Couldn't care a shit about the statistics.
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On April 15 2011 01:58 Ryndika wrote:
Well written story imho. You are talking mostly about MMR and not taking into account the flows (which are flows in my opinion) for example you cant see your MMR nor can your see your losses or even how many games you have played in total which is very frustrating atleast for me and many many other people.
e: im not really interested in my winratio I think there are a few reasons to hide MMR, for example to avoid an MMR-optimizing meta-game.
Knowing from the MMR that you could get promoted soon results in a loss-avoiding mindset. Anything which incites you to want avoid losses, results in playing less ladder because you increase the portion of practice before you ladder again. This is not how Blizzard intended the ladder to work. You should just login and play ladder, not practice in customs and play ladder just for wins.
You can know your standing (at least in your region) if your are grand master, even if you are just in master since the Battle.net shows the unspent bonus pool. Players in Diamond and below should just not worry about the MMR, they should focus entirely on learning from mistakes.
Hiding the number of games played may looks like a flaw in Diamond and below, but this is the only way to show the wins but not the win ratio.
On April 15 2011 01:58 Ryndika wrote:Show nested quote +The display of losses makes you want to avoid losses. This is the tournament mindset, where you show off what you are capable of. The ladder is a playground. You should not try to avoid losses, but to learn from your losses. I get pressure of ladder from the loss itself and getting -points and lower MMR and chance of BM. Couldn't care a shit about the statistics. Yes, laddering can be stressful. A loss counter confuses some gamers because they think they should have a win ratio >50% to show off they are skilled.
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On a personal note: I am currently fighting about the top 1 rank in my division. Sometimes I am ranked #1, sometimes my nearest competitor logs in and wins some games and has more points than me. What do I do? I play more games than my bonus pool offers me free points because this is currently the only way to keep up in the ranking. Since of course implies that I must show some skill to win my games, so I try to improve beyond my casual-play improvement.
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unless u are masters or GM, the only reason why u are still in the top 8 is because u consistently beat the divison below u, u average about 50% win loss with the division ur playing in, and u get consistently beaten by the divison above you.
other wise the only reason why u both are stuck in ur ranks and trading ranks, (both being you and your nearest competitor), is because u guys have about the same win/loss.
its stupid advice but the only one that makes sense, stop losing, win more
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I get what you're saying, but I personally think it is ridiculous to hide players from their own losses. I don't think it should shove the losses in your face, but you should be able to look up your own W:L if you want.
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TLADT24920 Posts
While I see your point, I think the route they took is unfair to other players including myself. I'm only in silver but I really want to see my losses, shouldn't have to check sc2ranks or sc2gears, etc.... to see it. Either way, I'm well aware of when I'm losing so hiding my losses isn't going to boost my moral when I'm on a tilt. I think giving you the option to turn your loss record on or off would be a much smarter idea and would give all players the same opportunity. I just don't think it's fair that only players in masters can see their losses :/
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the only ones who complain about 1 account per key is those kids who love to bash noobs like in sc1,
i remember when i played sc1 BGH the home team would always be stacked with high stats players and the away team would have to play with stangers.
so i m rly happy with this matchmaking, people will always find reason to complain about
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On April 18 2011 03:47 Nemuru wrote:
unless u are masters or GM, the only reason why u are still in the top 8 is because u consistently beat the divison below u, u average about 50% win loss with the division ur playing in, and u get consistently beaten by the divison above you. Yes so far I rarely get even opponents from the league above me.
On April 18 2011 03:47 Nemuru wrote:
its stupid advice but the only one that makes sense, stop losing, win more I must win where it matters. In the end I will have about 50% win ratio anyways, but if I win versus better players my MMR rises and I get better players so I start to lose again. If I have 50% win ratio versus players in the league above me, I get promoted as long as I also have 50% loss ratio versus them. If I still lose to low-ranked players my wins versus better players don't help me. But I can afford losses versus better players. One can even get a promotion right after a loss (when this loss stabilized the MMR.)
Of course I need wins which raise my MMR enough I actually get better opponents. Then I must beat some of them, too. It is still more important to learn from the losses than to play with a mindset that a loss a bad and will hinder my promotion. It's ok to lose as long as you don't lose too much versus players with smaller MMR than you.
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On April 18 2011 03:58 BigFan wrote:
While I see your point, I think the route they took is unfair to other players including myself. I'm only in silver but I really want to see my losses, shouldn't have to check sc2ranks or sc2gears, etc.... to see it. Those sites cannot display your total losses either because they grab the data from battle.net ladder and profile sites.
On April 18 2011 03:58 BigFan wrote:
Either way, I'm well aware of when I'm losing so hiding my losses isn't going to boost my moral when I'm on a tilt. I think giving you the option to turn your loss record on or off would be a much smarter idea and would give all players the same opportunity. I just don't think it's fair that only players in masters can see their losses :/ If you caóuld turn it on, you still would be in the mindset to keep your winratio above 50%. This is counterproductive to skill improvement. Since the match making system is designed to match the skill level, your loss counter will be close to the win counter anyway (unless you throw games or if you are in a real slump.)
You still lose ladder points for losses. The removal of the loss counter (or to be more precise, of the total games counter) just removes the wrong mindset about that win ratio.
On April 18 2011 03:57 Ruibarian wrote:
I get what you're saying, but I personally think it is ridiculous to hide players from their own losses. I don't think it should shove the losses in your face, but you should be able to look up your own W:L if you want. The only information you get from it is how good the battle.net can estimate your skill. You cannot see how skilled your actually are. But you would probably still measure your skill including the win ratio. To keep you from this false assumption, it is actually an advantage no longer see your losses.
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How many have noticed that win/lose ratio is still partially visible?
There's this blue bar that represents total wins and losses, so if there's any consistency to it, we can determine a player's win/lose just by glancing at said bar.
Example of 0% win and 100% win.
+ Show Spoiler +
(You can add me on EU server to verify that I my win/lose ratios are in fact 0% and 100%, character code is 938)
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I was one of these old guys that loved the SC universe and wanted to play ladder, but was afraid to loose. "Just need one more practice against the AI".
Good thing that I finally got over this after hearing what Day9 said... "The most important thing is that you play and have fun".
I said, to hell with loosing. Started my placement matches after being away from SC for a while. I ofc lost 4 of them and ended in bronze (1 guy disconnected). But man I had fun! 
I don't mind not being able to see the looses, but now I wouldn't mind seeing them. But I agree 100% with the reasons outlined by the OP.
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On April 17 2011 18:18 [F_]aths wrote:
On a personal note: I am currently fighting about the top 1 rank in my division. Sometimes I am ranked #1, sometimes my nearest competitor logs in and wins some games and has more points than me. What do I do? I play more games than my bonus pool offers me free points because this is currently the only way to keep up in the ranking. Since of course implies that I must show some skill to win my games, so I try to improve beyond my casual-play improvement.
IMO this is the flaw with the current division system: The points do not actually reflect how high up you are in your division (in other words your hidden MMR). In platinum and lower it essentially means how well you where able to deplete your bonus pool which is a matter of playing enough games.
If you start winning more you'll eventually move up, so you cant really focus on becomming first in your division (< masters)..
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On April 18 2011 20:29 Blurb wrote:How many have noticed that win/lose ratio is still partially visible? There's this blue bar that represents total wins and losses, so if there's any consistency to it, we can determine a player's win/lose just by glancing at said bar. Example of 0% win and 100% win. + Show Spoiler +(You can add me on EU server to verify that I my win/lose ratios are in fact 0% and 100%, character code is 938)
Hey,
I;ve checked a few profiles and i think the bars are actually representing the % of wins per leage..
For example: 5 1v1 wins and 5 2v2 wins means they are both 50%
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On April 18 2011 21:01 Lizarb wrote:
I was one of these old guys that loved the SC universe and wanted to play ladder, but was afraid to loose. "Just need one more practice against the AI".
Good thing that I finally got over this after hearing what Day9 said... "The most important thing is that you play and have fun". I find it strange that many players like to play vs. AI. I only did so (in AoE for example) because I had no mates to play against. Then I found the online gaming service and played there.
Vs. AI it's mostly to learn how to abuse AI weaknesses. I did like to play the campaign, though.
While I never recommend to practice vs. AI for mulitplayer, if someone likes to do so, he should of course do so.
On April 18 2011 21:01 Lizarb wrote:I said, to hell with loosing. Started my placement matches after being away from SC for a while. I ofc lost 4 of them and ended in bronze (1 guy disconnected). But man I had fun! I don't mind not being able to see the looses, but now I wouldn't mind seeing them. But I agree 100% with the reasons outlined by the OP. Of course, high-level play is more fun that low-level play. Highly skilled players probably pity us noobs since we never know the real joy the game can provide. But one can improve.
In 2004, I purchased a Playstation 2 just for Gran Turismo 4, later I also purchased a driving wheel controller. I just bought it for fun. I knew how a bad driver I am (with even no driving licence in RL.) I played and it WAS fun. That kept me playing. As I once needed to remake my licences, I notices how easy they were. I improved a lot even though I played only for my pleasure. I fine tuned my cards and turned driving aids OFF – to have more control over my car, even though I need to avoid any mistake. It was now even more fun as it got harder because I had more control over it.
I never played GT4 for any achievement, I just like to drive a car in a game.
This is also true for Starcraft. I want to build my favourite units. I want to test my new strategies. I never will be able to compete in a tournament but I will have fun and eventually improve somewhat.
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