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On July 16 2011 19:04 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 17:17 EmilA wrote:
If ladder winrates are overall very even with close spawning positions, then removal of close positions would screw the winrates in favour of a certain race and the game's inherent design flaw (races uneven at various stages of the game) would have to be dealt with as well. Isn't this a good reason to remove close position? Instead of relaying on close positions to keep the statistics even, they would actually have to balance the game properly. Or more late game strategy's might be developed.
unfortunately it seems that blizzard thinks it's too much :effort: to fully balance this game that way, and just throws in close positions..
though why should I have to play in close positions when I feel I just have to just ragequit from close position games right when I realize it's close positions to like.... not waste my time? = =
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Because the honest truth is i still want to win V zerg on ladder.
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it depresses me ever time I play Meta/shattered on the ladder -.-
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As a zerg player close positions makes me want to pull my hair out, as it instantly means that my T or P opponent is a living time bomb (if they play safe) and if I'm not able to kill them during a certain period of time i lose.
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So basically everyone either wants close positions removed or just more 2 player maps and the rest loves All ins or cheese and loves to get a free win in certain matchups? I really dont get it why people love close positions.
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I think the maps should be like closest positions aren't even that big of a problem but in general: YES!!! I feel horrible everytime I have to play close positons meta/ST even if i win.
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It's a fallacious argument that being spawn close position makes zerg more vulnerable to 4 gate. Warp in negates the traveling distance notwithstanding the map.
Plus, while zerg constantly complains that they have less time to react to attack, please be reminded that conversely, toss are more vulnerable to roach-ling all in as well.
So I find this amount of grousing very silly. Once a zerg promptly quit when he scouted me close position - all that is left for me to say is WTH?
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I hope metal and shattered get fixed next season or removed from the map pool. With how imba the new maps look, it seems like the Blizzard ladder may become completely useless for improvement.
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I think Z is too strong on cross positions vs Protoss, because it's rather easy to deny a 3rd for a long time. Hence we have alot of 2base all ins from P on xpositions.
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The real issue with temple/metal is the variance based on spawn positions. Better to just remove the maps than fiddle with spawning locations. Disabling close spawns just turns them into Zerg heaven maps.
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On July 16 2011 22:10 Quochobao wrote:
It's a fallacious argument that being spawn close position makes zerg more vulnerable to 4 gate. Warp in negates the traveling distance notwithstanding the map.
Plus, while zerg constantly complains that they have less time to react to attack, please be reminded that conversely, toss are more vulnerable to roach-ling all in as well.
So I find this amount of grousing very silly. Once a zerg promptly quit when he scouted me close position - all that is left for me to say is WTH?
Protoss can play really safe on close positions vs z and is prepared for all ins and also we are not talking about 4gate but about taking a 3rd... and also about more matchups and all ins. Especially a Zerg just needs time to prepare for a timing attack and this isnt given by close positions.
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On July 16 2011 22:10 Quochobao wrote:
So I find this amount of grousing very silly. Once a zerg promptly quit when he scouted me close position - all that is left for me to say is WTH?
As a Zerg player, I think it's pretty ridiculous as well. Close positions aren't my favorite, but they forced me to adapt my play and develop some pretty nasty 2-base all-ins. I don't see the point in quitting without trying, that's as bad as complaining about the protoss deathball without trying different ways to take it town in my eyes.
On July 16 2011 22:12 Sina92 wrote:
I think Z is too strong on cross positions vs Protoss, because it's rather easy to deny a 3rd for a long time. Hence we have alot of 2base all ins from P on xpositions.
I don't know where you're getting this idea from. The fact that protoss is still competitive at high levels, at tournaments such as MLG, GSL and Dreamhack where the map pool is composed solely of long-rush distance maps, makes me think this is completely false.
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On July 16 2011 22:18 Slivered Skin wrote:
I don't know where you're getting this idea from. The fact that protoss is still competitive at high levels, at tournaments such as MLG, GSL and Dreamhack where the map pool is composed solely of long-rush distance maps, makes me think this is completely false.
Of course long rush distance favors Zerg - they're a reactive race. It's not the only possible feature of a map though - stuff like security/availability of the 3rd, choke points etc also matter. Most maps have a mix of features to offer something to all races. Some - like cross Metal or Terminus, offer too much to the Zerg and are thus imba.
Tournaments tend to have some imba maps for each race so the results don't mean much.
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I really feel like close position should stay in the game. They promote diversity, you don't have to all-in in close positions, all-ins are just stronger than macro oriented builds. If you do want to do a macro oriented build you just have to play safer.
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United States154 Posts
On July 16 2011 22:16 Yaotzin wrote:
The real issue with temple/metal is the variance based on spawn positions. Better to just remove the maps than fiddle with spawning locations. Disabling close spawns just turns them into Zerg heaven maps.
This is the problem. In a TvZ matchup the close position really favors the Terran while the cross position equally favors the Zerg. I don't think one should be removed without the other being removed.
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Yes, remove them please, or at the very least, make the rush distance longer or with some drawbacks (don't know what they can do about it but anything would be welcomed)
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On March 30 2011 08:24 Tump wrote:
Don't eliminate close positions. Just make less rush maps. A balanced map pool is a good one.
Game would be boring if every single game was played on a macro map (and vice versa!). Just sayin'.
The problem is that Blizzard didn't design all the races to be balanced on rush maps, so the only way for actual fair gameplay without granting one race free advantages over the other is to use so-called macro maps.
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Off of these 3k voting guys are playing 2,3k Zerg? wow didnt thought that there are so many Zerg players are out there.
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On July 16 2011 22:10 Quochobao wrote:
It's a fallacious argument that being spawn close position makes zerg more vulnerable to 4 gate. Warp in negates the traveling distance notwithstanding the map.
Plus, while zerg constantly complains that they have less time to react to attack, please be reminded that conversely, toss are more vulnerable to roach-ling all in as well.
So I find this amount of grousing very silly. Once a zerg promptly quit when he scouted me close position - all that is left for me to say is WTH?
The problem for Z are not 1 base all ins. I agree that it can be tricky to secure an expo in close position in PvZ but if P has acomlished that then zerg has to take protoss army head on head. You can't counter attack, dropping is nearly impossible and stuff like muta switches etc. are even more risky then they are usually and I say that as protoss.
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On July 17 2011 01:41 Influ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 22:10 Quochobao wrote:
It's a fallacious argument that being spawn close position makes zerg more vulnerable to 4 gate. Warp in negates the traveling distance notwithstanding the map.
Plus, while zerg constantly complains that they have less time to react to attack, please be reminded that conversely, toss are more vulnerable to roach-ling all in as well.
So I find this amount of grousing very silly. Once a zerg promptly quit when he scouted me close position - all that is left for me to say is WTH? The problem for Z are not 1 base all ins. I agree that it can be tricky to secure an expo in close position in PvZ but if P has acomlished that then zerg has to take protoss army head on head. You can't counter attack, dropping is nearly impossible and stuff like muta switches etc. are even more risky then they are usually and I say that as protoss.
Those are all problems, but i would say taht the biggest issue with close spawns as Z, is that you have zero preperation time when you see the opponent moving out.
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EPT
