• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 06:34
CET 12:34
KST 20:34
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13
StarCraft 2
General
Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win SC2 Proleague Discontinued; SKT, KT, SGK, CJ disband
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation
Brood War
General
The top three worst maps of all time Foreign Brood War BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Data analysis on 70 million replays BW General Discussion
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile ZeroSpace Megathread The Perfect Game
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Big Programming Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Where to ask questions and add stream? The Automated Ban List
Blogs
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
Physical Exertion During Gam…
TrAiDoS
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1459 users

Explaining SC2 APM versus Real APM

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Veratule
Profile Joined May 2010
United States105 Posts
March 23 2011 20:55 GMT
#1
I believe it was Artosis who said that APM measure by SC2 is around 30% lower than in BW. Hearing that, I figured that maybe it was because SC2 doesn't require as much APM to be successful as is needed for Brood War pros, and I left it at that.

Then I started to wonder just how fast I could click, and from there I discovered exactly why APM is ~30% lower, and it's actually not the player's faults.

The questions to ask.

1) How do I produce a perfectly reproducible test bed for APM?
2) Does computer performance impact APM readings?
3) Does internet connectivity (latency) impact APM readings?
4) Does game speed impact APM readings?


1) To make this test as accurate as possible, I used two keyboard macros on my Razer Blackwidow.

To get the maximum APM possible, the first I used a macro that spams 1, 2, 1, 2 as long as I hold the button down (1 and 2 are control-grouped workers), with 0 delay between presses. My keyboard has a polling rate of 1000Hz, so the maximum APM it can output is 60,000 per minute, or 1000 per second.
The second macro was set to put a 0.2 second delay between every keystroke, giving the player exactly 300APM.

Below is a thumbnail and a link to the full-size image of the 'Infinite APM' macro:

[image loading]
http://imgur.com/Hz8T8

2) Below are two tests using the "Infinite" APM macro key. The test is running on Q6600 with GTX260 at 1920x1200 on high and 1024x768 on low. The reason I'm using such extreme APM for these tests is that at higher APM, the difference in APM for each settings should be more obvious.

High Settings, Slowest Game Speed: 46488 APM
[image loading]
http://imgur.com/OICxg

Low Settings, Slowest Game Speed: 50256 APM
[image loading]
http://imgur.com/syY2O

What can be concluded here is that while computer performance may have an impact on APM, the difference is only slight, and is irrelevant at more natural APM.

3) For this test I compared the Low Settings Test above to a test done on single-player.

Low Settings/Online, Slowest Game Speed: 50256 APM
[image loading]
http://imgur.com/syY2O

Low Settings/Offline, Slowest Game Speed: 50940 APM
[image loading]
http://imgur.com/qGilb

Internet connection also appears to have a negligible impact on APM readings. Lets move on.

4) Having eliminated variables, we now have the final experiment, and the part that will probably make some people angry. The following are results from the 300 APM timing experiments:

Low Settings, Normal Game Speed (which is equal to real time):
[image loading]
http://imgur.com/MOl0j

Low Settings, Faster Game Speed (what we all play at):
[image loading]
http://imgur.com/Xs1rk



Conclusions: Why people should be annoyed at Blizzard about this.

Test 4 demonstrates that APM is calculated relative to GAME time instead of REAL time. In the Broodwar days, 3rd party APM calculators read APM in real-time.

If we take the 216 APM of 'Faster Speed' and divide by the 300 APM of 'Normal Speed', we get:

216 / 300 = .72, meaning SC2 APM = 72% of your actual APM, which is nearly a 30% decrease in APM, hence why SC2 players are 30% slower.


I would hope that someone at Blizzard will read this post and change the APM system to measure APM in real-time instead of game time. Means those 300 APM players should actually have 417 APM.

Thanks for reading!
-Veratule
RmpL
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany263 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 21:02:06
March 23 2011 21:01 GMT
#2
I dont want to be rude, but istn this common knowledge ?


But nice test anyways
Veratule
Profile Joined May 2010
United States105 Posts
March 23 2011 21:03 GMT
#3
On March 24 2011 06:01 RmpL wrote:
I dont want to be rude, but istn this common knowledge ?


But nice test anyways


I actually didn't know if it was common or not. Either way I think Blizz should fix it.
ScrubS
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands436 Posts
March 23 2011 21:03 GMT
#4
The reason why its lower, is because we play at Faster modus, which is the normal speeld x1.38. But yeah, its kinda common knowledge but thanks for the efford
TrickyGilligan
Profile Joined September 2010
United States641 Posts
March 23 2011 21:04 GMT
#5
Good job OP, I was unaware of this.

Seems silly to have the M in APM not stand for "minute" but "blizzard minute." I just assumed the were using real units of time.
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it." -Groucho Marx
TerriBad
Profile Joined December 2008
United States146 Posts
March 23 2011 21:05 GMT
#6
This has been known since beta, where do you think Artosis got the 30% figure from?

Anway, it's a nice experiment you did, and I definitely agree that APM should be gauged on fastest game speed.
MrChupee
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia161 Posts
March 23 2011 21:05 GMT
#7
I think what you've found is that because time is accelerated in the faster game mode, APM calculated based on game time is bound to be less, but their realtime APM will be the same as it's always been (as we see, a gosu gosu 300); Not because they are slower, but just SC2 players are being measured by differing time scales.
holy_war
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States3590 Posts
March 23 2011 21:05 GMT
#8
Cool test, but this was known since March or April of last year (search function). Your actual APM is 1.33 times faster than the displayed APM.
Shodaa
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada404 Posts
March 23 2011 21:06 GMT
#9
Yea this is common knowledge since the beta. Program like SC2gears can also convert your game APM to real APM. Or you can multiplie your in game APM by 1.398 .
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/401120/1/Shodaa/
Amazements
Profile Joined August 2010
United States40 Posts
March 23 2011 21:06 GMT
#10
People have been bringing this up since the beta. Blizzard hasn't done anything so far, so I wouldn't expect it to change for a while, if at all.
Veratule
Profile Joined May 2010
United States105 Posts
March 23 2011 21:07 GMT
#11
On March 24 2011 06:04 TrickyGilligan wrote:
Good job OP, I was unaware of this.

Seems silly to have the M in APM not stand for "minute" but "blizzard minute." I just assumed the were using real units of time.


Thanks

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Doesn't make sense.

I didnt post it, but that test with 50940 APM, I did the same test on faster instead of slower and got around 21000, and normal was just under 30000.
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12240 Posts
March 23 2011 21:07 GMT
#12
Yeah this was already known. Faster speed runs at 1.3999x speed, and so your APM is measured at that speed. Your reported APM is equal to 1/1.3999 of your actual APM. This has been known since beta.
Moderator
KevinIX
Profile Joined October 2009
United States2472 Posts
March 23 2011 21:07 GMT
#13
Yep, this was known throughout beta. I think it's better this way. It's good to have a separation between Game Seconds and Real Seconds. Otherwise, everything gets confusing.
Liquid FIGHTING!!!
Treemonkeys
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2082 Posts
March 23 2011 21:07 GMT
#14
The problem is that everything in the game is based on the "blizzard minute". So do you have APM completely unrelated to the clock time and build times? Or do you readjust everything, which would completely ruin all the even 30/40/50 ect. build times.
http://shroomspiration.blogspot.com/
FLuE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1012 Posts
March 23 2011 21:07 GMT
#15
1 - Everyone knows this already.

2 - It doesn't really matter. I mean unless you are just trying to feel super good about yourself and your 80 APM is actually 110 or whatever, we are usually comparing APM's with players being measured by the same system.

So what we know - Anything 150-200 is high. Anything about 200 is really high(at least in my opinion).

If you compare 2 players and one has an APM of 150 and the other 200, the one with 200 is doing more APM. If it is actually 200 and 250 in real time it doesn't change the fact that the player at 200 is doing more and that is really all you need to know.

So does it really matter if it is exact real time or not? As long as the point of comparison is the same we get everything we need. This to me is a non-issue and something everyone already knows and is brought up often when talking about SC2 APM. Just don't compare 3rd party APM counters from BW(real time) with SC2(game time) APM because you are then comparing 2 different measurements at that point, again something we all know which is why people don't do it.
Divine-Sneaker
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark1225 Posts
March 23 2011 21:08 GMT
#16
It was kinda established that APM was approximately 30% lower, but I haven't actually seen anyone do an in depth test regarding it, so good job on that.
bLuR
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada625 Posts
March 23 2011 21:12 GMT
#17
everyone knew this but it is still a good demonstration and good op, it makes no sense to show a decreased apm.
andiCR
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Costa Rica2273 Posts
March 23 2011 21:14 GMT
#18
Known to people or not, i have always believed Blizzard implemented APM in a wrong way. If a game is played at "Faster" speed, APM be interpreted in terms of Faster speed, not Normal. Calculating apm based on a magic number called ingame minutes is just plain dumb. This shouldnt be too much of a fix, and would reflect the true meaning of APM.
Nightmare1795 wrote: I played a guy in bronze who said he was Japanese. That was the only game I ever dropped a nuke, which was purely coincidental.
Veratule
Profile Joined May 2010
United States105 Posts
March 23 2011 21:14 GMT
#19
On March 24 2011 06:07 FLuE wrote:
1 - Everyone knows this already.

2 - It doesn't really matter. I mean unless you are just trying to feel super good about yourself and your 80 APM is actually 110 or whatever, we are usually comparing APM's with players being measured by the same system.

So what we know - Anything 150-200 is high. Anything about 200 is really high(at least in my opinion).

If you compare 2 players and one has an APM of 150 and the other 200, the one with 200 is doing more APM. If it is actually 200 and 250 in real time it doesn't change the fact that the player at 200 is doing more and that is really all you need to know.

So does it really matter if it is exact real time or not? As long as the point of comparison is the same we get everything we need. This to me is a non-issue and something everyone already knows and is brought up often when talking about SC2 APM. Just don't compare 3rd party APM counters from BW(real time) with SC2(game time) APM because you are then comparing 2 different measurements at that point, again something we all know which is why people don't do it.


I understand that it's all relative, I agree with your point, but I would rather the APM be right instead of relative.
Beef Noodles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States937 Posts
March 23 2011 21:20 GMT
#20
So if my apm is 140... that means its really 200? Cool. I'll take it
1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #114
Classic vs PercivalLIVE!
TriGGeR vs SKillous
CranKy Ducklings199
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
trigger 60
SpeCial 52
Rex 27
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyuk 1510
BeSt 1151
Jaedong 718
firebathero 386
EffOrt 310
Stork 279
Killer 257
Last 236
910 180
Hyun 175
[ Show more ]
Mini 157
Dewaltoss 143
ZerO 101
Barracks 92
Bale 81
sorry 75
Sharp 50
zelot 47
Mind 43
ggaemo 42
Shinee 41
Sea.KH 28
Noble 25
HiyA 15
Dota 2
singsing5103
XcaliburYe304
Counter-Strike
x6flipin278
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0602
hungrybox229
AZ_Axe43
Mew2King13
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor219
Other Games
B2W.Neo390
RotterdaM154
nookyyy 16
ZerO(Twitch)12
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
CasterMuse 29
lovetv 7
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1596
• lizZardDota274
League of Legends
• Jankos3687
Upcoming Events
WardiTV 2025
26m
OSC
3h 26m
IPSL
5h 26m
Bonyth vs KameZerg
BSL 21
8h 26m
Bonyth vs StRyKeR
Tarson vs Dandy
Replay Cast
21h 26m
Wardi Open
1d
StarCraft2.fi
1d 4h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 5h
Replay Cast
1d 12h
WardiTV 2025
2 days
[ Show More ]
StarCraft2.fi
2 days
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
StarCraft2.fi
3 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
WardiTV 2025
4 days
StarCraft2.fi
4 days
WardiTV 2025
5 days
StarCraft2.fi
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
IPSL
6 days
Sziky vs JDConan
RSL Revival
6 days
Classic vs TBD
herO vs Zoun
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-12-04
RSL Revival: Season 3
Light HT

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
Slon Tour Season 2
Acropolis #4 - TS3
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
Kuram Kup
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
RSL Offline Finals
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.