I think natural talent has a role, but only at the highest of levels -- I don't think Flash just practices harder than everyone else. I'd say any person can practice his way to grandmasters if he really devotes himself to it, though.

Most people will never have the mindset to actually devote themselves to it, though.. which sort of seems like a natural talent in itself.

If you want to be good, if you really want it, then it's within reach.

hoby2000

United States918 Posts

March 21 2011 13:37 GMT

#22

If you believe that people are just "natural" at some things, then you probably believe in a deity.

Why do I say this? Because if you believe in "natural" talent, you don't understand the world around you. These players like Jaedong, or Flash, or anyone else who is really good at SC or SC2, are only good because of the amount of practice, and their method of practicing. They have been doing this for a very long time, and what people perceive as "natural" talent, is just an accumulation of their experiences poured into the game.

For example, if someone grows up working hard at everything they do, then they discover SC2, and decide to devote their time and energy to it, chances are that they will probably pick up the game pretty quickly, and be able to start beating people who are gold leaguers pretty quickly. This isn't because of a natural ability though, it's just because they understand the method they need to practice to make them understand the game better.

Musicians are the same way - I have a friend who has been playing piano since he was 4 or 5 years old. He's a wizard at piano now, and is a master of music in general. When he plays video games, he knows what he needs to do to already, to become good at said video game. He already has 15+ years of experience playing, practicing, and performing in the music arts - Playing, practicing and performing in video games won't really be a stretch.

However, this ability to play, practice and perform isn't all that you need - You also need determination. This is critical, because if you can get good at something, but don't really put forth enough time or effort, all your practice is pretty much wasted. You have to be determined to be good.

Determined play, practice, and performance - That's what makes someone good.

Geiko

France1961 Posts

March 21 2011 13:42 GMT

#23

On March 21 2011 22:32 Markus138 wrote:

Show nested quote +

the number of games played has nothing to do with it. people can be in bronze after 500 games because they don't care much about the game or because they don't know (and don't want to know) what they made wrong.

I think everybody could get into higher masters rank without any problems (given that he/she invests enough time and effort into it). The best players in the world might need some natural skill

Same goes for everything, skill isn't just about having a higher potential then someone else, it's also how fast you learn, your intuition of things that are going to work etc...
I got to diamond in the beta in a couple of days (well plat actualy at the time was the highest league) without watching any VODS or analyzing replays or reading strategy threads or even putting a lot of effort in understanding the game. Then I had to work to understand the matchups, perfect BOs etc... to ladder up and make it to masters.
I know some people who just fool around, never watch anything SC2 related and who are in masters with less then 100 games played total.

Natural skill and work both contribute to being good at starcraft. Currently, not that many people are playing starcraft so you can get into GSL by work alone, but that doesn't mean that everyone has equal chances to do good in starcraft.

dras

Kazakhstan376 Posts

March 21 2011 13:43 GMT

#24

random luck and chance is the way it goes in my opininion.

ClockToweR

United States61 Posts

March 21 2011 13:43 GMT

#25

Talent certainly plays i part in it but IMO i think its mostly practice

KOVU

Denmark708 Posts

March 21 2011 13:44 GMT

#26

"You can train a noob, but he will always be a trained noob" - some wise man

Natural skill has a lot to do with it in my opinion, but dedication and training hard will get you pretty far.

ChaseR

Norway1004 Posts

March 21 2011 13:47 GMT

#27

Champions aren't simply born, they're made! By us...rising them above others.

Tyree

1508 Posts

March 21 2011 13:49 GMT

#28

I do not believe in "natural skill" or "talent" really, anyone who is good at SC2 from the get go is good because they played BW or Warcraft 2 or any other RTS game. With hard work you can hone that skill, and perfect it.

The reason why you have great players different from good is mainly due to their training regiment and how they approach the game. Flash is good at BW because his mindset and hard work have propelled him into being as good as he is.

Playing 10 hours a day wont turn you into Flash, you would need people around you to hone your skills to perfection and top notch competition to challange you so that you have to keep improving.

Siwa

91 Posts

March 21 2011 13:50 GMT

#29

I think most pros do it max 3-5 times a week. Now compare that to average SC2 player with 1-2 times a day. With preparations and recuperation one moment takes about 15-30 minutes. Thats almost three hours more practice every week. Things like this can make a difference who goes to GSL and who is not.

That being said, quality and quantity of practice = 90%. So called natural talent (your whole life and experiences) is the rest.

RealRook

Czech Republic54 Posts

March 21 2011 13:51 GMT

#30

talent is definitely less than 10%, persistence, will and hard work are way more important

Stropheum

United States1124 Posts

March 21 2011 13:51 GMT

#31

Honestly, at the highest level of play, so much practice goes INTO improving, that natural talent has little to no impact. Natural talent basically dictates what skill level you start at and how fast you learn the fundamentals. After that, it's 100% practice that makes you better

Double Letters

United States58 Posts

March 21 2011 13:53 GMT

#32

I suspect that it's a little bit of both: Some people can be naturally good at multitasking etc, but those who aren't can train for it.

Blackthorne

Norway69 Posts

March 21 2011 13:54 GMT

#33

I have a good friend who has been to two Winter Olypmics in slalom/downwill, and won several world cup events. So, she was one of the very best at a very competitive sport. She now works as a trainer for kids. I remember asking her about the talent/hard work thing, and she basically said that talent for slalom wasn't important. However, having the "talent" for training, meaning you could train for hours and hours without going bored or losing concentration, was everything. And I believe this applies to pretty much everything, including SC.

sVnteen

Germany2238 Posts

March 21 2011 13:57 GMT

#34

i think if you just start early enough (not with like 27 or so years) and work a lot you can become a pro if you really dedicate yourself to it
but you of course should be open to the game and not be totally dumb xD

iSTime

1579 Posts

March 21 2011 13:59 GMT

#35

Anyone intelligent enough to succeed at anything is probably intelligent enough to be really good at SC2. Especially a few years from now when strategy has been worked out a lot more and mechanics become relatively more important.

PariahCaste

United States73 Posts

March 21 2011 14:05 GMT

#36

I started with no RTS experience, and at the lowest bronze level, and I'm now a high diamond, So i would say anyone can be pro if they train hard enough.

YokaY

United States108 Posts

March 21 2011 14:07 GMT

#37

On March 21 2011 22:49 Tyree wrote:
I do not believe in "natural skill" or "talent" really, anyone who is good at SC2 from the get go is good because they played BW or Warcraft 2 or any other RTS game. With hard work you can hone that skill, and perfect it.

The reason why you have great players different from good is mainly due to their training regiment and how they approach the game. Flash is good at BW because his mindset and hard work have propelled him into being as good as he is.

Playing 10 hours a day wont turn you into Flash, you would need people around you to hone your skills to perfection and top notch competition to challange you so that you have to keep improving.

This doesn't make sense to me. You seem to contradict yourself with the first and last statement. If your first statement is true, then all of Flash's teammates should be on his level of play.

I am uncertain what bearing talent plays on skill, but people serious about improvement shouldn't concern themselves with this; because between hard work and talent, there's only one factor that they can control.

nihlon

Sweden5581 Posts

March 21 2011 14:08 GMT

#38

I also depends on what you mean by 'natural talent'. I for instance are a little color blind (hard to seperate green/red etc), which definatly limits me in some ways in a game like sc2. Something as simple as seeing what units are yours in a ZvZ, where the dot for a nuke are (rarely see it). That is from birth and could be seen as a natural limitation, and it's not too hard to imagine there being more subtle limitations in people that you can't overcome by simply training hard. Even though that is probably a much bigger factor.

intrigue

Washington, D.C9934 Posts

March 21 2011 14:08 GMT

#39

pretty good quote from idra:

On September 27 2010 12:19 IdrA wrote:
you can spontaneously decide to be good at something and be successful if you can make yourself work at it. until the very very top, in almost anything, all that matters is how much work you put in, the only problem is most people cant work hard even at things they do enjoy, much less things they dont have a real passion for.

i'd like to add that hard work does not mean just mindlessly grinding out games. starcraft is an rts, after all. nothing is sadder than seeing people stuck at a certain level over thousands of games - at that point, they're just reinforcing bad habits.

Gheed

United States972 Posts

March 21 2011 14:14 GMT

#40

One would have to qualify talent. Naturally high handspeed? Innate ability to see and understand strategy and timings? Able to stick to a practice regimen and train?

I think you would need to at least be naturally good at something to become a top tier professional gamer. On the other hand I bet you could be "bad" and grind your way to masters by just playing a ton and slowly working on things.