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Active: 681 users

Is SC skill natural or trained? - Page 28

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 26 27 28 29 30 Next All
ROOTFayth
Profile Joined January 2004
Canada3351 Posts
October 08 2011 16:41 GMT
#541
It's obviously both, and mainly hard work, heavily weighted toward hard work actually
svi
Profile Joined October 2010
405 Posts
October 08 2011 16:45 GMT
#542
On October 09 2011 01:13 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2011 00:24 svi wrote:
On October 08 2011 18:03 Big J wrote:
Like EVERYTHING IN LIFE IS PURE PRACTICE, SC is pure practice as well.
Ofc everyone is born slightly different, but from the day the egg and the sperm meet, everything becomes learning and being taught.

There is no such thing as natural skill. Mozart didn't just start making music. He was raised that way. All he ever saw was his father and sister making music.


Just ask any progamer out there:
-) training the game
-) thinking about the game
-) talking about the game
-) experimenting in the game
-) experiencing the game
-) practicing the game
-) focusing on the game
-) playing the game
...

that's all they ever talk about, if they tell you what makes them good players.


lol what a joke...

To deny talent is to deny reality. No matter how much training you have you'll never be able to be better than Michael Jordan in basketball if you're 4 foot tall with bad reflexes just like how you'll never be able to do better math than Gauss if you have an average IQ.

We all have limits and we should be realists and accept that.

SC2 is not a very competitive activity though outside of Korea, so people with 80 IQ's can probably be top players if they practice way more than the rest, since the competition pool is very bad.



reflexes can be trained, IQ/math can be trained... Denying that means that you're hiding behind the fact that you are a lazy.
If people with an artificial leg can run 100m under 11sec, I don't accept that someone blames "bad luck to be born with low IQ", for being unable to do whatever they want.


When you see a retarded guy with 60 IQ in a mental institution struggling to learn basic arithmetic, it's crazy arrogant to say that it's because he's lazy, instead it's because he lost in the genetic lottery.

Yes reflexes and math skills can be trained but to what extent? There are people who are world class mathematicians when they're 16 years old like Gauss and there have been prodigies who were able to do calculus when they're 4 years old (a korean kid). You really think that this isn't because of genetics?

We also have MMA fighters who are the best in their field while training only for 3 years (Jon Jones) and that's against people who have been training for 5 times longer.

Learning speed is different for everyone. We all have a insuperable barrier and that barrier is our genetics.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
October 08 2011 16:52 GMT
#543
On October 09 2011 01:25 Cruncharoo wrote:
So really the only thing stopping you from being the next Einstein is hard work? Shame on you


I don't see a reason why I would want to become a such, especially when I meet people just as intelligent and dedicated to their work as Einstein was everyday at the university, but they don't get anything back from life, apart from being one of the best in their respective fields.

But I'm really sorry for you, if you think you're already the best you can be or at least close to that.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
October 08 2011 17:05 GMT
#544
On October 09 2011 01:45 svi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2011 01:13 Big J wrote:
On October 09 2011 00:24 svi wrote:
On October 08 2011 18:03 Big J wrote:
Like EVERYTHING IN LIFE IS PURE PRACTICE, SC is pure practice as well.
Ofc everyone is born slightly different, but from the day the egg and the sperm meet, everything becomes learning and being taught.

There is no such thing as natural skill. Mozart didn't just start making music. He was raised that way. All he ever saw was his father and sister making music.


Just ask any progamer out there:
-) training the game
-) thinking about the game
-) talking about the game
-) experimenting in the game
-) experiencing the game
-) practicing the game
-) focusing on the game
-) playing the game
...

that's all they ever talk about, if they tell you what makes them good players.


lol what a joke...

To deny talent is to deny reality. No matter how much training you have you'll never be able to be better than Michael Jordan in basketball if you're 4 foot tall with bad reflexes just like how you'll never be able to do better math than Gauss if you have an average IQ.

We all have limits and we should be realists and accept that.

SC2 is not a very competitive activity though outside of Korea, so people with 80 IQ's can probably be top players if they practice way more than the rest, since the competition pool is very bad.



reflexes can be trained, IQ/math can be trained... Denying that means that you're hiding behind the fact that you are a lazy.
If people with an artificial leg can run 100m under 11sec, I don't accept that someone blames "bad luck to be born with low IQ", for being unable to do whatever they want.


When you see a retarded guy with 60 IQ in a mental institution struggling to learn basic arithmetic, it's crazy arrogant to say that it's because he's lazy, instead it's because he lost in the genetic lottery.


It's crazy arrogant to imply I'm so dumb, that I take this for serious.
It's called genetic defect and means that you're genes aren't allright. Maybe it was harsh for your intelligence to imply that I'm talking about people with healthy genes.
Cruncharoo
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States136 Posts
October 08 2011 17:54 GMT
#545
You're obviously just trolling now. Good to know
xxSuP4hFLyxx
Profile Joined October 2011
Guernsey32 Posts
October 08 2011 18:00 GMT
#546
Its natural. You can play 100 hours a day and not improve if you dont have the natural skills. On the other hand, like me, i just saw SC2 last month and played it and after 3 days playing without any RTS background Im already im GM.
DarQraven
Profile Joined January 2010
Netherlands553 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-08 18:03:05
October 08 2011 18:01 GMT
#547
On October 09 2011 02:05 Big J wrote:
It's crazy arrogant to imply I'm so dumb, that I take this for serious.
It's called genetic defect and means that you're genes aren't allright. Maybe it was harsh for your intelligence to imply that I'm talking about people with healthy genes.


And what would you, in all your infinite wisdom, say is the barrier between healthy genes and bad genes? Where's the cutoff? 60IQ? 80? Wherever you feel is convenient?

The brain isn't something ethereal - it's a physical thing, inside your head. It is capable of developing to differing degrees, just like any other part of your body.
You know that kid who was twice as tall as you when you were a kid? You reckon he sat up in his room stretching all day? Or could it be that he was simply naturally taller than you (at that age, or even still)?

Tell me why the brain/nervous system would be any different than other physical aspects of a human being, and then we can talk about your 'argument'.
Kakaruku
Profile Joined October 2011
4 Posts
October 08 2011 19:08 GMT
#548
On October 09 2011 03:00 xxSuP4hFLyxx wrote:
Its natural. You can play 100 hours a day and not improve if you dont have the natural skills. On the other hand, like me, i just saw SC2 last month and played it and after 3 days playing without any RTS background Im already im GM.

lol what a douchebag! derp
Xyik
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Canada728 Posts
October 08 2011 19:17 GMT
#549
There is 'natural' skill, thats the reason some people improve faster than others and thats why players with the same base of knowledge can do better or worse than the other. Like all things in life, talent comes from being able to accomplish a lot within a very short period of time - this applies to SC as well.
RobCorso
Profile Joined May 2011
United States111 Posts
October 08 2011 19:20 GMT
#550
There is natural skill in hand movement, but it can be trained up to a certain degree (but people with natural skill can put in the same training to get even better, and so someone with natural skill will be better than someone without it; the difference is very subtle and doesn't matter much). It is the way mind thinks, the ability to predict people, and how you react to pressure. Some people will always overreact and freak out, and cannot multitask. This difference, again, is very subtle and you doesn't matter in pro play
We make expand, then defense it-WhiteRa
IntotheNorth
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark116 Posts
October 08 2011 19:23 GMT
#551
trainable, as long as u r not a total retard tbh...
Monkeyballs25
Profile Joined October 2010
531 Posts
October 08 2011 21:05 GMT
#552
On October 08 2011 18:43 HaXXspetten wrote:
I think the quite obvious answer is both.


And yet there's a 28 page thread full of people who disagree, silly really
Pretending that genetics has absolutely no impact on brain development when it impacts the development of *every other aspect of our physical bodies* is just ignorant. The brain ain't anything special in that regard.
But even if genetics had no impact, early education and environment certainly do. I assume most players here are already past those early formative years. So pointing at someone in bronze and saying they could be in GM league if they just practiced long enough is still ridiculous. It could be true for some, but not even close to all of them.
emidanRKO
Profile Joined December 2010
United States137 Posts
October 08 2011 22:32 GMT
#553
raising iq is possible. however, iq isn't fundamental to be good at sc2; it's for being near the best.

if you have an average iq, you will never reach a really high level of skill.

think of this way - iq and skill cap have a direct relationship. the higher your iq, the higher your skill cap will be. so, say, if someone has an iq of 150, it means they have a skill cap of 10(random number). when that person starts sc2 for the first time, his skill level will be at 0. training will get him slowly(or quickly) to the skill cap of 10. if he raise his iq, his skill cap will increase and he will have to train again to reach the cap, etc etc
son
Mirosuu
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
England283 Posts
October 08 2011 22:36 GMT
#554
I don't deserve a high diamond spot on NA, because I know I'm high platinum on EU. I just take this fact and just continue to work hard at my mechanics and focusing on the core things than worrying about many new strategies. I don't deserve any of what I have, I just keep my head down and working at it until I'm satisfied with where I am.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Gurblechev
Profile Joined May 2011
188 Posts
October 08 2011 22:42 GMT
#555
On October 09 2011 07:32 emidanRKO wrote:
raising iq is possible. however, iq isn't fundamental to be good at sc2; it's for being near the best.

if you have an average iq, you will never reach a really high level of skill.

think of this way - iq and skill cap have a direct relationship. the higher your iq, the higher your skill cap will be. so, say, if someone has an iq of 150, it means they have a skill cap of 10(random number). when that person starts sc2 for the first time, his skill level will be at 0. training will get him slowly(or quickly) to the skill cap of 10. if he raise his iq, his skill cap will increase and he will have to train again to reach the cap, etc etc

There is no way to raise IQ unless it was being suppressed by malnutrition or some other fixable problem.

You can lower IQ by causing brain damage, but with current technology there is no way to raise it. Perhaps in the future gene therapy will change this.

Intelligence will have a significant effect on Starcraft ability at any skill level. Even between two players completely new to RTS games the one with higher intelligence would have a natural advantage in reaction time and decision making.
Demoe
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada105 Posts
October 08 2011 22:54 GMT
#556
Theres a certain level of intelligence you need to have to be successful at this game. That is something no amount of practice can give you.
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
October 08 2011 23:59 GMT
#557
Being raised a certain way or being born with certain traits may affect the speed of which one can get better, but that can change as well.

When it comes to the overall maximum, eventually anyone at a decent age, and without a mental or physical handicap could excel at starcraft 2 to the highest levels.
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
Zodiac7777
Profile Joined November 2010
81 Posts
October 09 2011 00:08 GMT
#558
Of course there is talent, there is talent for everything in life. But to be a top player you have to accompany that talent with practice. With the player pool of SC right now talent is much less of a factor, but if SC gets big then talent will start showing up.
dar0za
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada74 Posts
October 09 2011 00:22 GMT
#559
On October 09 2011 07:42 Gurblechev wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2011 07:32 emidanRKO wrote:
raising iq is possible. however, iq isn't fundamental to be good at sc2; it's for being near the best.

if you have an average iq, you will never reach a really high level of skill.

think of this way - iq and skill cap have a direct relationship. the higher your iq, the higher your skill cap will be. so, say, if someone has an iq of 150, it means they have a skill cap of 10(random number). when that person starts sc2 for the first time, his skill level will be at 0. training will get him slowly(or quickly) to the skill cap of 10. if he raise his iq, his skill cap will increase and he will have to train again to reach the cap, etc etc

There is no way to raise IQ unless it was being suppressed by malnutrition or some other fixable problem.

You can lower IQ by causing brain damage, but with current technology there is no way to raise it. Perhaps in the future gene therapy will change this.

Intelligence will have a significant effect on Starcraft ability at any skill level. Even between two players completely new to RTS games the one with higher intelligence would have a natural advantage in reaction time and decision making.


actually, all IQ really is is a test result.
open your mind a little too much and your brain will fall out. | sansfromage #302
scorch-
Profile Joined January 2011
United States816 Posts
October 09 2011 00:30 GMT
#560
or IQ is an innate quality that is tested by an IQ test.
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