So, throughout all the cinematic scenes in Starcraft 2, including the one in which Tychus was placed in his suit, I always felt there was something a little "off" about the shape and size of the shoulders and arms of the Terran Marine. The head seemed seated too low, and the arms too thick for a normal human frame.
At first, I was able to shrug this off as mere poor vision on my part-- the Terran Marines were clearly already broad-shouldered folk, and most of that shoulder width could be chalked up to extra padding and armor above and around the standard shoulder. The head seems low due to the padding and armor around the neck-- this is explainable. There is nothing to see here, move along...
Yet I was wrong, and blind to the truth, however horrible it was. EVEN assuming the shoulder padding and other things cause the apparently broader shoulders, there remains the problem of arm positioning and angle. Given the thickness of the terran arm and chest armor on the marine, there was no way it was possible for the arms could come out of the shoulder pads straight down at that angle rather than slightly outwards. Your arms can't fall to your side straight if you have armor between your upper arm and your torso... they should press out slightly.
At first, my compatriots would not believe me, so I had my friend Maru the paint /graphic designer put together a blueprint to show how this is possible. I've placed this in spoiler tags for those of you with slower connections.
The first row of the image shows an anatomical diagram of a human, and a front view of a Terran Marine. The second row shows a superposition of the two images, demonstrating their incompatibility, and the hypothetical anatomy of a human who would fit into a Terran Marine suit.
I hope that this adequately explains my issues with the shape and size of the Terran Marine suit and its relationship with Terran anatomy. Various explanations like "Marines are genetically altered conscripts", "Marines are actually gorillas", and "Marines OP" are obviated by the presence of Raynor and Tychus clearly not having gorilla shoulders. I hope that other TL readers will now understand the true and insidiously sinister lies that underLIE the shape of the Terran Marine suit.
Feel free to use this thread to debate how a normal shaped human could fit into a Marine suit, or not fit, as the case may be.
haha yeah true. i also don't understand why marines in suits look much taller than normal human beings, since there's very little height extensions in the suit judging from the SC2 intro.
When you're good against everything else in the game, even banelings, you earn the right to have your shoulder any size that you want. Marines could even be rocking some suits and shoulder paddings from duran duran below that amor or some shit. They are in that level of badassery. They can do whatever the fuck they want.
I just rewatched the initial teaser video (which is totally still badass btw, watch it again... I got chills again ;D)
and I was like 'yeah this totally makes sense' the entire time. Then at the end I changed my mind again.
I'm forced to conclude that they go in normal, but the suit fucks their shit. This is not actually a problem since before any of these effects begin to cause serious problems (takes about 2 months), the average marine dies 32 times.
The reason the marine looks so funky and the hands look so big is because thats just his style.
A similar comparison can be see here in art from the movie Lilo and Stitch. See how exaggerated the lower half of Nani's body is? It was just the specific style of the lead artist that they chose for the movie.
On March 18 2011 18:17 Ptur wrote: the starcraft 2 intro cinematics shows a preview of how the marines get equiped
So when I used to cast (computer started not being able to do it and im to cheap to fix it) I would always say "build" marines and people in the chat would be like no no no you TRAIN marines in the barracks. My respoonse was always to watch that intro again because based on that it really does look like most of the marines suit gets built around him to equip him which is what i assumed would happen in the barracks, not training, building/equipping.
The reason the marine looks so funky and the hands look so big is because thats just his style.
A similar comparison can be see here in art from the movie Lilo and Stitch. See how exaggerated the lower half of Nani's body is? It was just the specific style of the lead artist that they chose for the movie.
You can see his style in all three of Blizzard's franchises, as well as on the album art for the band HammerFall.
They talked a lot about it in the Making Of DVDs that came with the collector's edition which are available here and there. While they could have made everything look normal they didn't think it looked as good from a top down perspective and ultimately decided that this is how it would look. They go into more depth in the DVDs obviously.
I get a weird sense of scale from the game anyway. I always see marines as something realyl tiny and puny (partly because they are in in comparison to everything else in the game ^^), then you see Tychus and wonder what the hell?
so I had my friend Maru the paint /graphic designer put together a blueprint to show how this is possible.
I read this and saw, Maru and Graphic designer and blueprint.
Then you show us the diagram... and I laughed, I was expecting something really awesome instead we are presented with stick figures. Not saying that stick figures are bad but I obviously mistook the sentence wrong.
to lazy to draw. Anyway since starcraft was supposed to be a warhammer 40k game before there was some issue (I love it when game companies fight ... only good things arise from em ps1 or starcraft 1 hehe)
Also they look within reason to me in the ingame scenes, but maybe i am to used to space marine look.
so I had my friend Maru the paint /graphic designer put together a blueprint to show how this is possible.
I read this and saw, Maru and Graphic designer and blueprint.
Then you show us the diagram... and I laughed, I was expecting something really awesome instead we are presented with stick figures. Not saying that stick figures are bad but I obviously mistook the sentence wrong.
The first row of the image shows an anatomical diagram of a human, and a front view of a Terran Marine. The second row shows a superposition of the two images, demonstrating their incompatibility, and the hypothetical anatomy of a human who would fit into a Terran Marine suit.
1st. That is everything except an anatomical diagram of a human.^^
2nd. Despite the 1st point I want to say that of course Blizzard tweaked the human body to fit in the marine suit. In a game like this VISUALS > SCIENCE. Always. ^^
Yeah it does, especially when you compare it to the pilot in the Viking. If you have ultra settings then you can see a miniature man fall out of the Viking as it dies, at least twice as small as a marine
ive always been confused about this aspect. In concept photos and other stuff where you see tychus without his suit he is only slightly taller than jim raynor... in the game where tychus suits up you clearly see his feet go into the bottom of the boots, and yet tychus is then a monstrous 2 feet taller than raynor. Yet when raynor and tychus both suit up they are about even again, yet both their heads are at the top of the suit. the comparison can be seen in the bar fight,(tychus suited, raynor not) and on char (both suited)
the arm length makes sense because when tychus suits up he is given a handle control mechanism to hold on to.
however the size changes between characters does not.
I often wondered about it. Also: Let's say marines barely fit. What's about Marauders? They're like twice as wide... There is no way in hell for a guy to fit into Marauder arms because the armor has so broad shoulders.
I always figured that the inner arm portion of the Marine gauntlet armor was significantly thinner, so as to allow for more dexterity. If the plating is less bulky there, it's likely that the Terran inside the armor would be able to assume the "hanging arms" posture.
rofl as impeccable as that diagram is, it would require that the man's forearms bend. the wrists clearly don't control the elbows either, as they are in a rigid casing as seen in the Tychus assembly video.
also, i propose 2 men inside a marauder suit, as opposed to 3. they do require 2 food...
On March 18 2011 21:27 teekesselchen wrote: I often wondered about it. Also: Let's say marines barely fit. What's about Marauders? They're like twice as wide... There is no way in hell for a guy to fit into Marauder arms because the armor has so broad shoulders.
The Marauder armor i is easy to understand, since the marauder armor is about as big as the Iron Monger armor from the Iron Man film, the wearer is not 'wearing' the suit as much as actually piloting the suit inside a small cockpit.
On March 18 2011 21:27 teekesselchen wrote: I often wondered about it. Also: Let's say marines barely fit. What's about Marauders? They're like twice as wide... There is no way in hell for a guy to fit into Marauder arms because the armor has so broad shoulders.
The Marauder armor i is easy to understand, since the marauder armor is about as big as the Iron Monger armor from the Iron Man film, the wearer is not 'wearing' the suit as much as actually piloting the suit inside a small cockpit.
I was actually thinking more or less the same about marines as well. That the armor is more like the "Iron Man". The guys inside control it more than actually wear it.
Just the pure weight of that suite would make it impossible to move let alone run with
The marine wears a suit of armor that is really like a cross between a ghost and a maurader. If you rewatch when tychus gets the suit put on him, the armor extends well past his normal body boundaries (for example his gloves are more like joysticks that control the hands than actual gloves) thus the discrepency in size.
The way Tychus was suited up is not the way marines are made. Tychus was a prisoner in the suit. He actually could not get out of his suit. + Show Spoiler +
Mengsk wanted Tychus to kill Kerrigan in exchange for his freedom.
Well Blizzard games have always had these kinds of stylistic art, just take a look at any of their games, even diablo to some extent. I love the unique and colorful visual style of starcraft, even if sometimes the proportions are off.
Edit; and KevinIX just spoiled the entire sc2 Terran campaign :/
On March 19 2011 01:20 KevinIX wrote: The way Tychus was suited up is not the way marines are made. Tychus was a prisoner in the suit. He actually could not get out of his suit. Mengsk wanted Tychus to kill Kerrigan in exchange for his freedom.
I thought all marines were prisoners? The only way to get out of your cell is to join up with the marines.
On March 19 2011 01:20 KevinIX wrote: The way Tychus was suited up is not the way marines are made. Tychus was a prisoner in the suit. He actually could not get out of his suit. Mengsk wanted Tychus to kill Kerrigan in exchange for his freedom.
I thought all marines were prisoners? The only way to get out of your cell is to join up with the marines.
But Tychus was a prisoner in his own suit. Raynor for example could get in and out of his suit. Tychus was sealed in.
so I had my friend Maru the paint /graphic designer put together a blueprint to show how this is possible.
I read this and saw, Maru and Graphic designer and blueprint.
Then you show us the diagram... and I laughed, I was expecting something really awesome instead we are presented with stick figures. Not saying that stick figures are bad but I obviously mistook the sentence wrong.
It would seem that a lot of other people didn't get it xP
On March 18 2011 21:34 Aeres wrote: I always figured that the inner arm portion of the Marine gauntlet armor was significantly thinner, so as to allow for more dexterity. If the plating is less bulky there, it's likely that the Terran inside the armor would be able to assume the "hanging arms" posture.
Ah ha! A weakness that zealot psionic blades shall exploit.
This is why I think they should have kept the original SC 1 Marine suits. Those we're more realistic. These new suits are far fetched and clearly exaggerated.
On March 19 2011 04:04 Ageless wrote: The marine's hands aren't in the hands of the suit. They hands are robots. The marines hands are on controls in the suits forarms.
This might explain the length of arms, but it doesn't explain the angle at which the upper arm comes out of the shoulder. Primarily, this is a problem of both shoulder width and the thickness of the armor between the upper arm and the torso (on both the arm and the torso) that make the marine suit difficult to understand. See the anatomical diagrams in the original post for why the shoulders are a problem.
On March 19 2011 01:20 AlBundy wrote: Well Blizzard games have always had these kinds of stylistic art, just take a look at any of their games, even diablo to some extent. I love the unique and colorful visual style of starcraftWarhammer 40K, even if sometimes the proportions are off.
Fixed that for you. The Marine proportions are off because Adeptus Astartes are rather bulkier than normal humans, and changing that would have required Blizzard to make an original IP.
On March 19 2011 01:20 AlBundy wrote: Well Blizzard games have always had these kinds of stylistic art, just take a look at any of their games, even diablo to some extent. I love the unique and colorful visual style of starcraftWarhammer 40K, even if sometimes the proportions are off.
Fixed that for you. The Marine proportions are off because Adeptus Astartes are rather bulkier than normal humans, and changing that would have required Blizzard to make an original IP.
40k is Warhammer in space and Warhammer is a rip off of Tolkein.
Things that bug me are: -marine suit proportions -how marines go to the bathroom -where the suit gets its energy -what happens if marine needs to itch his butt
Does anyone else think the terrans should invent some sort of much better alloy to make their marine suits out of? If a broodling can get through what looks like at least 2 inches/5 cm of steel then either the zerg all have super strength or the terrans are doing armor wrong.
On March 19 2011 06:11 Attican wrote: Does anyone else think the terrans should invent some sort of much better alloy to make their marine suits out of? If a broodling can get through what looks like at least 2 inches/5 cm of steel then either the zerg all have super strength or the terrans are doing armor wrong.
The zerg DO have super strength. A single zergling is probably stronger than a rhino.
Do you have any idea what sort of injuries would result from you keeping your shoulders/trap muscles in that position constantly? I think they would literally be unable to move their necks and lose sensation in their arms after a day or two.
On March 18 2011 18:18 Ezekyle wrote: Astartes have significant changes made to their bodies as part of becoming a Space Marine.
This isn't WH40K?
You're right, the Protoss aren't the Eldar, the Zerg aren't Tyranids and Terran definitely aren't Adeptus Astartes...it's not litke the blue armor has anything to do with Ultramarines.
:D
Blizzard stole the idea for the races years ago, it's pretty much common knoledge by now
On March 18 2011 18:18 Ezekyle wrote: Astartes have significant changes made to their bodies as part of becoming a Space Marine.
This isn't WH40K?
You're right, the Protoss aren't the Eldar, the Zerg aren't Tyranids and Terran definitely aren't Adeptus Astartes...it's not litke the blue armor has anything to do with Ultramarines.
:D
Blizzard stole the idea for the races years ago, it's pretty much common knoledge by now
You figure the xel naga will be like the necrons? (super high-tech robotic units with a twist of mystical powers) - Race characterized by ridiculously strong units but having very few numbers
I remember the explain the marine suit a bit in some starcraft books I've read, the suit is a lot bigger than a person, I think your feet are a foot (hehe) off the ground because of how the suit is built (so much armor and mechanical stuff!). And you control the gloves with mechanical jibberish stuff, your fingers aren't actually in the gloves. Thats how I visioned it anyway. As far as how wide you would have to be to fit into the suit, as your diagram shows clearly, I have no idea.
The reason the marine looks so funky and the hands look so big is because thats just his style.
A similar comparison can be see here in art from the movie Lilo and Stitch. See how exaggerated the lower half of Nani's body is? It was just the specific style of the lead artist that they chose for the movie.
You can see his style in all three of Blizzard's franchises, as well as on the album art for the band HammerFall.
Thank you for this! Probably the most informative post in the entire thread. I can see why people are still a tad confused with it: the series is made to look so realistic that an applied art style doesn't seem to "fit."
On March 18 2011 21:24 DannyJ wrote: Marines are designed to look good, not be functional.
Michelangelo's David has odd proportions too just because it looked better from the vantage point you were supposed to see it from.
On March 18 2011 18:18 Ezekyle wrote: Astartes have significant changes made to their bodies as part of becoming a Space Marine.
This isn't WH40K?
You're right, the Protoss aren't the Eldar, the Zerg aren't Tyranids and Terran definitely aren't Adeptus Astartes...it's not litke the blue armor has anything to do with Ultramarines.
:D
Blizzard stole the idea for the races years ago, it's pretty much common knoledge by now
You figure the xel naga will be like the necrons? (super high-tech robotic units with a twist of mystical powers) - Race characterized by ridiculously strong units but having very few numbers
One can hope, though it is a bit off-topic, but I really hope they don't add xel'naga as a playable race. EVER.
On March 18 2011 18:18 Ezekyle wrote: Astartes have significant changes made to their bodies as part of becoming a Space Marine.
This isn't WH40K?
You're right, the Protoss aren't the Eldar, the Zerg aren't Tyranids and Terran definitely aren't Adeptus Astartes...it's not litke the blue armor has anything to do with Ultramarines.
:D
Blizzard stole the idea for the races years ago, it's pretty much common knoledge by now
It isn't like space marines fighting bug aliens was an idea unique to games workshop. SC draws on a lot of classic sci-fi influences.
If it weren't for the cut scene where it shows tycus' wrist really close to the glove, it could be that the wrist controls the elbow and the elbow controls the shoulder.
Yeah, artistic license at it's worst. I really hate it when artists (myself being an amateur one) ignore facts of reality (or a contrived reality). I think if ou are doing any kind of representational art (meaning not an abstraction of something), you should strive to be consistent with what you are creating. It may take extra effort, but it's worth it to take the time to create something that "seems real." Thats always the problem I've had with Blizzard games and especially their art staff. The art direction that defines WOW is the stupidest I have seen in a major game and they passed a lot of that on to SC2. Of course the rendering in SC2 is amazing, but they kept a lot of the idiotic physiological elements that make WOW intolerable to me. WOW characters don't physically make sense (and therefore look idiotic to me) so it's no surprise that SC2 characters are the same way. I think they toned it back a lot for SC2, but they really didn't try to make the marine, marauder, firebat, etc. seem real. Even the ghosts and especially the female characters have bizarre proportions. Diablo 3 is going to be the same way. I really miss the stylings of Black Isle games where characters, even fictional fantasy races, had logical and convincing frames. Everything else just looks stupid to me and really takes me out of the story. In game its not really a problem, but in the cut scenes and cinematics, I think they could do a lot better. Definitely one of the elements that contributes to outsiders looking down on fantasy and sci-fi genres as being goofy and not worth taking seriously.
Haha yeah, always felt a bit weird about that and felt the design of the marine suits were too big; Marine suits should be suits, not power suits. Power suits for the bigger Firebats/marauders are fine, but not for Marines who are already big themselves.
But anyways, it showed in that SC2 trailer apparently they don't wear it normally; it is indeed a power suit.
well just like any other character they are designed bigger. its the style of the artwork dudes. ive never rly seen a human in a blizzard game that looks like the average humain being.
Raynor transformed from a slim bald fun guy into a fucking hulk (with hair too!) so they could put him into that damned marine suit. No idea how thats supposed to have happened. I dont even _like_ him anymore, such a 0815 hero guy in sc2.
On March 19 2011 07:45 Monsieur wrote: well just like any other character they are designed bigger. its the style of the artwork dudes. ive never rly seen a human in a blizzard game that looks like the average humain being.
I don't know about you, but here in seattle, we're all ripped, ten feet tall and have flowing hair, sexy space cowboy voices and a bone to pick with the establishment.
Wait. We're actually just hipsters that ride fixies and drink pabst. FML.
The Marines suit is powered combat armor. I had always assumed that the suits were built around each and every Marine, and that it wouldn't matter where their hands would end because they are using hand-grip controls to move the arms, so their arms most likely DO end quite a bit up the suits arm, but it makes sense when you watch the SC2 video and see the huge glove with the hand controls go on Tychus.
The head is too low, but really thats it imo. The marine armor isnt just some armor, its actually a mechanical suit. its not just armor strapped on some guy's arm, its the guy's arm, plus some mechanical parts (which for obvious practical reasons would be placed on the external side of the body, and not all around the arm), the lot of it covered in armor.
I think we all know about the mechanical hands and stuff. The part that doesn't make sense is the shoulders or specifically the armpit areas. Some of the movements they do don't make sense thinking about the human inside.
The head is too low, but really thats it imo. The marine armor isnt just some armor, its actually a mechanical suit. its not just armor strapped on some guy's arm, its the guy's arm, plus some mechanical parts (which for obvious practical reasons would be placed on the external side of the body, and not all around the arm), the lot of it covered in armor.
Nice diagrams! Almost as good as the hand-drawn ones from my graphic designer, Maru-- but because they are part clip-art and cut/paste, and not photo-realistically drawn from human models like the ones in my original post, there are some proportionality problems that show up that I would like to critique:
That image of Raynor is scaled to be like 15% too large... look at where his legs are parting from his torso. This is just showing that the shoulders are 15% too wide for the size of the occupant. The second diagram has the marine elbow at half-way down the forearm of the human occupant. In this circumstance, any arm-bending would snap the forearm in half. The problem of proportionality, shoulder breadth, and armor plating between the torso and the arms remains. I feel as though these attempts to get a human shape to actually fit into a marine armor just further proves the point: there's some serious issues at work here.
Clearly Marines have their arms ripped off when they get into their suits, then somehow the suits reattach the arms when the Marine has to get out to pee.
I feel like all the marines are huge motherfuckers (raynor, tychus). This is probably a result of futuristic hormones and drugs. Thus they have wide chests and long arms.
Right, they have wide chests and long arms... but look at the amount of space, say in the above picture, between the biceps and the chest. There isn't enough room for the plate armor and huge shoulder pads that are part of the marine suit; there's no way his arms could hang by his side wearing it. Even the most grotesquely in-shape humans cannot match a terran marine for shoulder width.
EDIT: @morimacil you may make fun the anatomical diagram I commissioned for my post, but I feel like it got the point across fairly well, even if some artistic license was sacrificed on the altar of medical accuracy. Seriously though, I think it does get the point across.
Judging by the cinematic, it looks like the boots maybe add like 6 inches to their height, so I feel like marines are wayyyy taller than they should be.
LOL blazing, well done with the thread well done and Maru the paint guy? HAHA! very very funny :p
I for one agree, its impossible but no big deal since I suspend my disbelief I mean, how do they create marines from barracks in only seconds!?
Zerg evolves - makes sense.
Protoss come warp in - makes sense.
Terran - magically born human beings are instantly mature and placed in super suits that only cost 50 minerals to make instantly inside of a barracks? ... idk man idk. Can't say they live in the Rax, since how come a reactor means two come out at the same time? Does the reactor make the doors double wide so 2 can fit through at once? I don't man I just don't know :o
Heres another one, it really doesnt look that far fetched.
Right, they have wide chests and long arms... but look at the amount of space, say in the above picture, between the biceps and the chest. There isn't enough room for the plate armor and huge shoulder pads that are part of the marine suit;
Well true, there isnt much space between this guy's biceps and his chest. But then again, if you look at the marine armor, you will notice that they dont have upper arms, they just have really big shoulderpads. These shoulderpads are connected to the body through 50% of the torso. So a human could fit his shoulder and upper arm in there, even if his arms werent hanging perfectly straight down.
@morimacil you may make fun the anatomical diagram I commissioned for my post, but I feel like it got the point across fairly well, even if some artistic license was sacrificed on the altar of medical accuracy. Seriously though, I think it does get the point across.
Well I wont deny that it gets your point across. But I also wouldnt call it medically accurate I mean, your stick figure has shoulders that are barely wider than his head. Shoulder breadth seems to be closer to 3 times the size of the head, which is what your drawing represents when you fit the stickman inside the marine costume in your original diagram.
I think that the reason it looks strange when you try to fit a stickman inside the marine costume, isnt because the proportions are off, but rather because we are acustomed to seeing stickmen without shoulders, or with very slender ones. + Show Spoiler +
This is the kind of stickman we are used to looking at, not stickmen drawn to human proportions.
And thus when you see a stickman with human proportions, it doesnt really look right.
On March 19 2011 07:45 Monsieur wrote: well just like any other character they are designed bigger. its the style of the artwork dudes. ive never rly seen a human in a blizzard game that looks like the average humain being.
I don't know about you, but here in seattle, we're all ripped, ten feet tall and have flowing hair, sexy space cowboy voices and a bone to pick with the establishment.
Wait. We're actually just hipsters that ride fixies and drink pabst. FML.
having lived in seattle for the last few years i thought this was exceptionally funny. ^^ + i cant believe this is important enough to discuss lol.
On March 19 2011 09:24 ZeromuS wrote: LOL blazing, well done with the thread well done and Maru the paint guy? HAHA! very very funny :p
I for one agree, its impossible but no big deal since I suspend my disbelief I mean, how do they create marines from barracks in only seconds!?
Another fun fact is that even though marines live in Rax, and in theory sleep, eat, and use the facilities there, after they initially leave the racks THEY NEVER GO BACK(S). Even the protoss warp-in seems weird. Why does the warpgate pylon fields warping tech work for gateway units but not aircraft or robotics units? If its about size (say, immortals are too big), why not observers? Why does researching some sort of upgrade (like armor or shields) affect warriors that have been chilling for a while at home and are waiting to be warped in? etc etc.
I'm entirely willing to suspend my disbelief over Terran Marine shoulders... I mean, I play Terran and love Marines, but still, man-- it is a little lover the top. It's far less noticeable in game, I think, than it is in cutscenes-- you're usually so zoomed out from Marines and the units around them are usually so much bigger that you don't notice.
btw I like how Fredow is on the first page of the confusing /awesome BM thread. PEJ 4 eva.
On March 19 2011 06:11 Attican wrote: Does anyone else think the terrans should invent some sort of much better alloy to make their marine suits out of? If a broodling can get through what looks like at least 2 inches/5 cm of steel then either the zerg all have super strength or the terrans are doing armor wrong.
The zerg DO have super strength. A single zergling is probably stronger than a rhino.
The thing about that though is that in a cinematic in the original Starcraft a zergling gets hit and killed by a car. So, either they've been retconned or zerglings have gotten massively stronger without changing much in size.
On March 19 2011 01:20 AlBundy wrote: Well Blizzard games have always had these kinds of stylistic art, just take a look at any of their games, even diablo to some extent. I love the unique and colorful visual style of starcraftWarhammer 40K, even if sometimes the proportions are off.
Fixed that for you. The Marine proportions are off because Adeptus Astartes are rather bulkier than normal humans, and changing that would have required Blizzard to make an original IP.
40k is Warhammer in space and Warhammer is a rip off of Tolkein.
On March 19 2011 09:24 ZeromuS wrote: LOL blazing, well done with the thread well done and Maru the paint guy? HAHA! very very funny :p
I for one agree, its impossible but no big deal since I suspend my disbelief I mean, how do they create marines from barracks in only seconds!?
Zerg evolves - makes sense.
Protoss come warp in - makes sense.
Terran - magically born human beings are instantly mature and placed in super suits that only cost 50 minerals to make instantly inside of a barracks? ... idk man idk. Can't say they live in the Rax, since how come a reactor means two come out at the same time? Does the reactor make the doors double wide so 2 can fit through at once? I don't man I just don't know :o
One of Huxley's book has something to say about that, sir.
The marine suit kinda makes sense. I don't recall ever seeing a marine with their arms straight down like they're standing at attention, they're always somewhat angled out. That way they can have a really wide torso. But I bet if the suit is uncomfortable they don't really care about putting convicts in an awkward position.
On March 19 2011 06:11 Attican wrote: Does anyone else think the terrans should invent some sort of much better alloy to make their marine suits out of? If a broodling can get through what looks like at least 2 inches/5 cm of steel then either the zerg all have super strength or the terrans are doing armor wrong.
The zerg DO have super strength. A single zergling is probably stronger than a rhino.
The thing about that though is that in a cinematic in the original Starcraft a zergling gets hit and killed by a car. So, either they've been retconned or zerglings have gotten massively stronger without changing much in size.
Doncha 'member? That's a zergling Lester, smaller type 'f zerg.
Indeed. It's possible that the zergling was just stunned, and not dead, as well. There certainly was a good deal of retcon between SC1/BW and SC2, so I'm not sure BW references will be legitimate in arguing over the realism of the SC2 marine proportions.
On March 19 2011 11:12 Blazinghand wrote: Indeed. It's possible that the zergling was just stunned, and not dead, as well. There certainly was a good deal of retcon between SC1/BW and SC2, so I'm not sure BW references will be legitimate in arguing over the realism of the SC2 marine proportions.
You're probably right. I personally just think the marine suit just looks too big/too heavily armored to be destroyed by something like a zergling
Have you played a video game in the last 20 years? Tons of games and forms of media do the impossibly beefy dude.
Unreal games come to mind.
Space Marines get all sorts of enhancements in the process of becoming a marine, so it's perfectly reasonable to assume that their body shape changes to allow them to fit in that armor. So at least with Warhammer 40K it makes sense because they bother to explain something like this.
Have you played a video game in the last 20 years? Tons of games and forms of media do the impossibly beefy dude.
Unreal games come to mind.
Space Marines get all sorts of enhancements in the process of becoming a marine, so it's perfectly reasonable to assume that their body shape changes to allow them to fit in that armor. So at least with Warhammer 40K it makes sense because they bother to explain something like this.
For WH40K Space Marines these enhancements include things from gene therapy to having an extra backup heart in case a bullet goes through the first one, extra stomachs, livers, etc. They're not Human in the normal sense of the word... whereas Terran Marines appear to be largely unmodified (no pun intended).
On March 18 2011 18:18 Ezekyle wrote: Astartes have significant changes made to their bodies as part of becoming a Space Marine.
This isn't WH40K?
Then why are they often seen fighting raveners, carnifexes, genestealer cultists and other such foul xenos, hmmmm?
If you are talking about 40K space marines being bad-ass, then yeah, I agree.
Starcraft seemed to copy WH40K a fair bit.
OT: It's the marines head that looks weird to me :/ Especially when there are plenty of them.
Ya, Blizzard has copied the shit out of the Warhammer universe, and you can't really blame them, it's depth and characters are far superior.
Protoss - Eldar Terran - Space Marines + Imperial Guard Zerg - Tyranids
Hate to say it, but even now, I still think the original Dawn of War was the best RTS game of all time. I wish Starcraft 2 had 1-2 more races and ALOT more unit diversity.
Speaking of Warhammer 40k, was anyone else disappointed when someone asked Day9 about what he thinks of the Warhammer 40k series in the Q&A daily and Day9 responded by talking about the Dawn of War games?
since were on the topic of making fun of designs, I feel like returning to the discussion of the battle cruisersize. that, and how ever the hell someone drives a viking.
Here are four pictures of a human skeleton superimposed upon a model of a marine (Tychus) in his suit. In the following diagrams, the skeleton and the marine were aligned so that the head, the pelvis, and the knees would be in the same place.
In this one, the skeleton is simply placed on top of the power armor. no adjustments.
Here, I've moved the bones of the arms and the legs as to make it fit the angle and positions of corresponding bits of power armor.
Here, I tried it with the humerus spread far apart.
Here is one last picture where the humerus is at an angle. At first glance, this looks workable. However, if you watched the Tychus assembly video, you realize the shoulder pads are located on top of tychus's actual shoulders. On top of that, this configuration becomes problematic when moving the arms in any way. The forearm joints of the armor are located so that your forearms would need to bend. When rotating your arms forward, your humerus would have to snap in half (if you look carefully, the shoulder joints between the shoulder pads and the torso do not allow for something at such a angle to rotate). Not only that, but if your arms have any muscle at all, your muscles would need to overlap with the piping and plating of the armor; it barely works with only the bones.
On March 19 2011 11:36 LoLAdriankat wrote: Speaking of Warhammer 40k, was anyone else disappointed when someone asked Day9 about what he thinks of the Warhammer 40k series in the Q&A daily and Day9 responded by talking about the Dawn of War games?
It's a depressing tendency people have to see Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War and then think that WH40K and DoW are the same thing.
On this 40K topic, I'm so tempted to make a 40K SC2 map with Imperium, Eldar and Tyranids. There's so many nifty things one could do with the 40K setting and SC2 engine.
TrinitySC offers the most compelling evidence yet for the medical impossibility of the Terran Marine. I think the Human Skeleton offers a fairly accurate aspect ratio for height vs wingspan, assuming everything was scaled up correctly (which it was).
On March 19 2011 06:11 Attican wrote: Does anyone else think the terrans should invent some sort of much better alloy to make their marine suits out of? If a broodling can get through what looks like at least 2 inches/5 cm of steel then either the zerg all have super strength or the terrans are doing armor wrong.
The zerg DO have super strength. A single zergling is probably stronger than a rhino.
I've never considered in game balance to scale with lore numbers. For instance, the Banshees totally outrun the speedlings in the cut scene where you rescue General Warfield. I also consider a marine, lorewise, not just micro'd by MKP, able to take down more than 2 of those zergling critters, but in a lore sense I consider the Zerg to have far greater numbers than you actually see in most of the campaign. The only time it really felt like the Zerg is when you were scripted to die, such as the Zero Hour type mission, or All-In. Well, All-In was cheesy because of the bosses. Consider the number or Zerg units killed after All-In. It's around 3,000 on hard/brutal? Yea, that's a lot but do you think invading the planet Char and fighting all the way to the primary hive cluster you'll really only come across as few as 10,000 (taking other missions and rounding up a bit) zerg units? Starcraft still has to be on a scale comprehensible to its people (okay, I paraphrased Tracer Tong from Deus Ex there).
As far as human beings fitting in those suits and all, this is the universe of the convict marine. And Raynor is ripped, and even Matt Horner probably is pretty strong as well. At least he has really good posture and figure. It's hard to conceptualize why all these men are so ripped after watching Wall-E, but it of course fits the needs of a video game.
And yea, I suppose there's more room on the inside arm of the marine suit than the armored outside, because even those ripped convicts aren't reshaping their arms.
Well the problem here, is that you are taking an average skeleton. Tychus is most certainly not average. There is an average for shoulder width, just like for anything else in the human body, like height, handsize, nose size, and so on, but there are also people who have larger shoulders than others, as with pretty much every other feature of the human body, not everyone has a skeleton that is exactly the same as the average skeleton. I think the bodybuilder picture I found fit quite well.
Also, its not unthinkable that under constraints such as perhaps increased gravity due to not living on earth, but in the koprulu sector, and generally, life on other planets, that the human body would evolve a little.
On March 18 2011 18:18 Ezekyle wrote: Astartes have significant changes made to their bodies as part of becoming a Space Marine.
This isn't WH40K?
Then why are they often seen fighting raveners, carnifexes, genestealer cultists and other such foul xenos, hmmmm?
If you are talking about 40K space marines being bad-ass, then yeah, I agree.
Starcraft seemed to copy WH40K a fair bit.
OT: It's the marines head that looks weird to me :/ Especially when there are plenty of them.
Ya, Blizzard has copied the shit out of the Warhammer universe, and you can't really blame them, it's depth and characters are far superior.
Protoss - Eldar Terran - Space Marines + Imperial Guard Zerg - Tyranids
Hate to say it, but even now, I still think the original Dawn of War was the best RTS game of all time. I wish Starcraft 2 had 1-2 more races and ALOT more unit diversity.
Kinda off topic (or I guess semi-proving yours), but my brother works at a local movie theater in SoCal. He realized that a frequent customer that they have was in the newspaper, but he couldn't remember what for. So he asked him, and it turns out the the frequent customer of his movie theater is Blizzard's Lead Starcraft II Art Designer, Sam Didier. My brother is also an avid 40k fan and always reads 40k books (and i mean always). Didier noticed that and then they got into a conversation about w40k. Didier plays the tabletop and don't quote me on this, but my brother says that he got a lot of the inspiration/ideas from 40k.
On a side note, pretty sick to see that some people from blizzard play w40k. Awesome tabletop
i like how you guys are arguing about the marine... have you seen the marauder that fool is twice the size of a marine. I'm pretty sure a marauder can palm and dunk a marine -.-
On March 19 2011 14:11 Whomp wrote: i like how you guys are arguing about the marine... have you seen the marauder that fool is twice the size of a marine. I'm pretty sure a marauder can palm and dunk a marine -.-
On March 19 2011 14:11 Whomp wrote: i like how you guys are arguing about the marine... have you seen the marauder that fool is twice the size of a marine. I'm pretty sure a marauder can palm and dunk a marine -.-
There are 2 dudes in a marauder. Fact. ~_~
Just using your quote as an image reference.
Repeatidly, people are trying to put the arms into the center of the suit arm armor, trying to see how a Human could fit his shoulders/arms into that huge L-look the Marine has.
The arms aren't making 90degree angles straight to the side and then down, or being detached from the body, neither of those make sense. I'm pretty sure the SC2 intro was to show people this regarding the discussion we're having. In any posture aside from a military attention stance, you're arms aren't going to be going straight down. The angle of the arm during a regular stance would be like 15-30degrees as Raynor shows, and someone who is muscular is going to have a wider normal angle.
Anyway, the arms are most likely hugging the inside of the arm/shoulder armor, meaning that the arms and shoulders wouldn't have to be so wide, and the arms at a wide angle. If you look at the Raynor picture, if his shoulder angle was wider at about 40-50degrees, the arms, including elbow and where the fingers end match the SC2 intro video and what would look logical to be the positioning of the human body inside the suit. Like most other war machines, the inside armor is probably a lot less thick, and protective as the outside. In the Raynor picture, the elbow joint ends slightly below the circular shoulder peice, and from the Tychus intro we know the hands end about where the armor gauntlets start.
Like someone else mentioned, if anything, the Marauder looks to be the problem for this topic, but like someone else has also mentioned, the Marauder is most likely a pilot in a combat suit like the viking.
Wouldst the suits be customized to suit the person its for? that would make sense Ive read heavens devils and Tychus is like 6'6 280 or something he needs bigger equipment
On March 19 2011 15:24 Zerkaszhan wrote: Wouldst the suits be customized to suit the person its for? that would make sense Ive read heavens devils and Tychus is like 6'6 280 or something he needs bigger equipment
And that too, its completely possible there are numerous sizes of armor, or at least armor with different internal sizes/fitting.
On March 19 2011 15:24 Zerkaszhan wrote: Wouldst the suits be customized to suit the person its for? that would make sense Ive read heavens devils and Tychus is like 6'6 280 or something he needs bigger equipment
And that too, its completely possible there are numerous sizes of armor, or at least armor with different internal sizes/fitting.
No, it's one size fits all, and the dimensions are, 3 by 1/2*.
*In millimeters**.
**Proof .
And yes, the universe is two dimensional, why do you ask?
TrinitySC once again demonstrates that how clearly the marine is disproportioned. Raynor is our best example, and i think this most recent set of diagrams shows that there's no way the Raynor Marine can match up to Raynor in terms of shoulder and arm shape.
On March 19 2011 14:11 Whomp wrote: i like how you guys are arguing about the marine... have you seen the marauder that fool is twice the size of a marine. I'm pretty sure a marauder can palm and dunk a marine -.-
Nice comparison, but again remember the SC2 trailer? The Marine suits aren't just armor but rather actual power suits. Meaning, the arm is more realistically bent outwards a little. They use those machine thingies that map the human hand to the suit's hand, if u know what I mean. I guess you can check out the trailer to see xD
Interesting find, but I'm not convinced that the shoulders go completely out into the shoulder metal pads, I can see how the pauldrons are very large to literally cover the top of the shoulders that are on the inner region of the mechanical armor.
On March 19 2011 17:12 Buddhist wrote: Did you have to write us a novel to state the obvious fact that marines are extremely overly bulky? It's the same in warhammer:
like, i dunno what the artists are thinking, but it's stupid as fuck
there is a difference.
warhammer 40k marines are actually genetically-altered super humans. Their large hulking body frames actually fit nicely within their suit's dimensions.
starcraft marines on the other hand are normal human beings with normal body frames, yet they wear suits larger than their body frames allow.
Does anyone want to consider the probability that humans are given injections of all kinds of growth hormones to increase their physical size? I mean they take stimpacks and have an expected lifespan in minutes, so how could a few deadly chemicals hurt?
The arms in this pic are in the middle of the marine suit arms, instead of being on the inside, and also much too low.
Paint somehow doesnt allow to rotate stuff without stretching it, so I left the upper arms as they were, but its not hard to see that if the angle on them was slightly different, it would work out fine. The hands are inside the marine forearms, not inside the marine mechanical gloves. The shoulderpads encompass the whole upper arm, and most likely the forearm too.
This modified diagram suffers from the same problem as the others: There's no way the elbow in this could bend without snapping the forearms of the man inside. The main issue is that eating into the width of the shoulders by spreading the arms leads always to a misalignment of the elbow joints, leading to horrible horrible bone-snapping for the occupant of the suit.
On March 20 2011 08:20 Blazinghand wrote: This modified diagram suffers from the same problem as the others: There's no way the elbow in this could bend without snapping the forearms of the man inside. The main issue is that eating into the width of the shoulders by spreading the arms leads always to a misalignment of the elbow joints, leading to horrible horrible bone-snapping for the occupant of the suit.
Just to illustrate this (fear my MS paint skills!)
On March 19 2011 17:12 Buddhist wrote: Did you have to write us a novel to state the obvious fact that marines are extremely overly bulky? It's the same in warhammer:
like, i dunno what the artists are thinking, but it's stupid as fuck
there is a difference.
warhammer 40k marines are actually genetically-altered super humans. Their large hulking body frames actually fit nicely within their suit's dimensions.
starcraft marines on the other hand are normal human beings with normal body frames, yet they wear suits larger than their body frames allow.
In the cinematic where Tychus gets his suit, I don't think he has a "normal body frame". Jim Raynor isn't exactly thin either.
This has already been explained-- the issue isn't arm length, it's arm angle and shoulder length. Even given that the arms don't go down into the hands, the location of the suit's elbow and shoulder and a person's elbow and shoulder don't line up, and would cause severe, severe breakage in any normal operation.
they're NOT suits of armour, they're actually more like a mecha, the arms of the marine pretty much end in the elbow of the suit and the legs are actually more like in the shins.
Again, and I'm not sure if I've made this clear: It's actually okay how long the arms and legs are. It's pretty obvious that there are mechanical extensions there. The issue is the alignment of the joints-- the marine's arms ARE physically inside the suit's arms, even if the arm's actual strength is servo-assisted, and actual length is suit-assisted. This means that the joints in the suit have to line up with the joints in the arm in order to properly bend without snapping the forearm or upper arm of the occupant.
LENGTH is not the issue, but rather, joints are. I refer you to The Touch's diagram:
On March 20 2011 08:20 Blazinghand wrote: This modified diagram suffers from the same problem as the others: There's no way the elbow in this could bend without snapping the forearms of the man inside. The main issue is that eating into the width of the shoulders by spreading the arms leads always to a misalignment of the elbow joints, leading to horrible horrible bone-snapping for the occupant of the suit.
Just to illustrate this (fear my MS paint skills!)
yeah people should watch big wars anime XD. Or everything else involving heavy exo suit armors ... But after examining the video a bit closer and the armors i must say. The plating of the arms towards the body is damn thin, really easy to disable the arm, though i guess not much strength needed to move the arms, as servos do this job. Plus you can't snipe in this armor anyway. PS: test it yourself it works to move with such restrictions, they are on drugs anyway so pain is no problem. But i sure would love servo support moving my arms.
PPS: budget was running low so they didn't made a extra space marine model for the dead hyperion vize captain on char.
Actually, I always through the elbow went at the shoulders and the forearms used a control apparatus kinda like how they do armatures for animations puppets with long arms. Because you know... the hands are like 8x the size of normal hands.
On March 20 2011 08:20 Blazinghand wrote: This modified diagram suffers from the same problem as the others: There's no way the elbow in this could bend without snapping the forearms of the man inside. The main issue is that eating into the width of the shoulders by spreading the arms leads always to a misalignment of the elbow joints, leading to horrible horrible bone-snapping for the occupant of the suit.
Just to illustrate this (fear my MS paint skills!)
Not to mention the following:
Notice the indents where the shoulders are hinged. Even if you ignore the fact that the arms hang perpendicular to the ground (ie arms aren't extended from the shoulders of the suit's occupant), the arms cannot simply fit in the suit in such a fashion to begin with. If you were to force it to fit in such a manner, you would either break the humerus outright or severely limit the range of motion of the arms.
Edit: this has more to do with morimacil's post than Touch's, but Touch posted a nice template for a diagram. hehe
The arms wouldn't go down the center of the armored suit's arms because then you could not bend the arm. More realistically, the arm would have to positions closer to the torso (under arm) side of the suit's arms and the should would have to be lower as well. Being able to pull your arms in front of you would be beneficial of you wanted to use a gun.
I do agree Blizzard may have taken some artistic license, but I also think all of the pictures here assume the body overlap is 1 to 1 which it can't be for obvious reasons. The suit would work fine if you assumed the should rested closer to the armpit region of the suit and the arms closer to the under arms (which would make sense since damage would probably come more from the outside rather then inside of the arm.
Whether the arm is more to the left or to the right inside the suit arm doesn't change the location of the joints. Sure, maybe it makes sense for the arm length or perhaps even the shoulder width, but it doesn't matter if the hinge is in the middle of your forearm and the pivot is in the middle of your upper arm, leaving your bones shattered. The issue isn't arm length, you see? It's arm joint location.
On April 10 2011 13:52 Tonic420 wrote: Wow, it is a video game remember.. Can you explain to me the physics behind how an archon warps in please!?!?
Physics is one thing... basic (very basic) human anatomy another.
There's one thing you guys must have missed in the intro video. They have considerable hand extensions - that is to say their hands in the suit, are where the forearm is on the outside. Something similar happens with the the feet as well. This means that the marine fits into the suit, in such a way that the head being where it is does not mean their arms hinge at their shoulders on a 70 degree angle.
On April 10 2011 06:15 Blazinghand wrote: This has already been explained-- the issue isn't arm length, it's arm angle and shoulder length. Even given that the arms don't go down into the hands, the location of the suit's elbow and shoulder and a person's elbow and shoulder don't line up, and would cause severe, severe breakage in any normal operation.
That could be what the stims are for, to dull the pain of shattered forearms.
On April 10 2011 13:52 Tonic420 wrote: Wow, it is a video game remember.. Can you explain to me the physics behind how an archon warps in please!?!?
The formation of an archon begins with a gravitational instability inside a psionic cloud, often triggered by shock waves from two templar (massive psionic explosions) or the collision of two templar. Once an archon reaches a sufficient density of matter to satisfy the criteria for Jeans instability it begins to collapse under its own gravitational force.
Archons spend about 90% of their lifetime fusing psionic energy to produce psionic shockwaves in high-temperature and high-pressure reactions near the core.
Fusion continues until the iron core has grown so large that the archon can no longer support its own mass. The core will suddenly collapse as its electrons are driven into its protons, forming neutrons and neutrinos in a burst of inverse beta decay, or electron capture.
I think it's funny you analyzed it to that point, but I do see what you mean. Realistically, sticking someone in an armor suit like that, they won't have actual arm control to the normal degree of a regular, unsuited individual, hence why suits like that don't already really exist.
On April 10 2011 14:30 Blazinghand wrote: Whether the arm is more to the left or to the right inside the suit arm doesn't change the location of the joints. Sure, maybe it makes sense for the arm length or perhaps even the shoulder width, but it doesn't matter if the hinge is in the middle of your forearm and the pivot is in the middle of your upper arm, leaving your bones shattered. The issue isn't arm length, you see? It's arm joint location.
The length and joint locations are altered. They are not proportional (I don't think) to the layout of the human body. The arm joint at the elbow for example is shifted to inside (closer to the torso) but the elbow, forearm armor, puff it out I think. This would work even better if the armor could collapse in on itself around the jointed around similar to iron man. His arm would then be closer to the torso then it would appear allowing for more reasonable joint movement. Subsequently, you would have to then shift the shoulder joint down and elbow joint inward to a more a human scale relative to the body of the human.
On March 19 2011 17:12 Buddhist wrote: Did you have to write us a novel to state the obvious fact that marines are extremely overly bulky? It's the same in warhammer:
like, i dunno what the artists are thinking, but it's stupid as fuck
there is a difference.
warhammer 40k marines are actually genetically-altered super humans. Their large hulking body frames actually fit nicely within their suit's dimensions.
starcraft marines on the other hand are normal human beings with normal body frames, yet they wear suits larger than their body frames allow.
In the cinematic where Tychus gets his suit, I don't think he has a "normal body frame". Jim Raynor isn't exactly thin either.
The difference being, warhammer marines arent exactly.. human considering they are all made from a single gene seed(usually of the chapters captain) iirc.
On April 10 2011 13:52 Tonic420 wrote: Wow, it is a video game remember.. Can you explain to me the physics behind how an archon warps in please!?!?
The formation of an archon begins with a gravitational instability inside a psionic cloud, often triggered by shock waves from two templar (massive psionic explosions) or the collision of two templar. Once an archon reaches a sufficient density of matter to satisfy the criteria for Jeans instability it begins to collapse under its own gravitational force.
Archons spend about 90% of their lifetime fusing psionic energy to produce psionic shockwaves in high-temperature and high-pressure reactions near the core.
Fusion continues until the iron core has grown so large that the archon can no longer support its own mass. The core will suddenly collapse as its electrons are driven into its protons, forming neutrons and neutrinos in a burst of inverse beta decay, or electron capture.
Lmao. I just wrote my planetary astronomy exam this week, and this is the greatest post ever
On April 10 2011 14:57 Creegz wrote: I think it's funny you analyzed it to that point, but I do see what you mean. Realistically, sticking someone in an armor suit like that, they won't have actual arm control to the normal degree of a regular, unsuited individual, hence why suits like that don't already really exist.
The black guy gets his arm cut off after being hit by a hydralisk ( and gets a new one ) in the campaign
these two both allow the users to lift up to 200 lbs while walking (Sarcos/Raytheon) (Cyberdyne) (Lockheed) (UC berkeley) they sort of exist in some ways
Their arms are not actually inside those armour arms, is how I understood it. They control the mechanical arms attached to the suits using controls inside it.
Of course this does not explain why general warfield had to have his arm replaced when it was damaged by the hydralisk spines, when all it did was pierce the arm in his armour.
On April 10 2011 13:52 Tonic420 wrote: Wow, it is a video game remember.. Can you explain to me the physics behind how an archon warps in please!?!?
Oh come on .... there is a little difference between "mystical / magical" and totally alien creatures and some guys which are supposed to be humans. These humans are shown without the suit after all, so any comments like ...
On March 18 2011 18:18 Ezekyle wrote: Astartes have significant changes made to their bodies as part of becoming a Space Marine.
are highly irrelevant. There is also something called IMMERSION and small things like the illogical tidbit of these wrong proportions is important. Sure we have gotten used to the look of the Marine and the fact that a BC isnt 100 times as big as it is(*1), but the proportions of the Marine just concern one model and not a comparison between several of them.
(*1) Easy explanation for the "seemingly bad unit size proportions" would be that 1 Marine actually represents 1 SQUAD of Marines and so on, whereas 1 BC actually is 1 BC.
EPT
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woof.
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