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On March 12 2011 17:11 PinkPrincess wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 17:09 StarBrift wrote:On March 12 2011 16:39 bLuR wrote:On March 12 2011 13:50 Liquid`Ret wrote:
played twice vs igware, both games random vs random, first game close air metapolis he scouted for an overlord with his probe even though his nexus already saw it.
2nd game 4 player map he proxies 2 rax in between the top 2 bases before scouting any position (hes bottom left im top left) but closer to my base. He also proxied me on a 4player map without scouting my base. I feel like people have been ignoring Rets post. This bunched with the obvious facts of the OP and other statements in this thread is enough to safely say that he hacked imo. That and the fact that everyone who tries to defend the douchebag is a gaming buddy or IRL friend of his. To be fair, Ret and Sorcery have a "history" that has nothing to do with game play. I'm not saying that's behind his accusation, but it would be inaccurate to say that they are merely people who happened to randomly run into each other in ladder games.
If you're trying to say that Ret's point isn't very credible because he is biased, the same thing can be said about yourself.
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Take a step back accusors.
Accusations like this can destroy a reputation. Lets see the stream and whether he can maintain his rank whilst streaming.
Unless you have compelling evidence for cheating, (IMO the evidence so far has been circumstantial at best) there is not anything more you can really say or do.
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protech have a long history of accusing players that are better than him since BW days. just thought i'll let you guys know
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I've played him in 2s a while back, and noticed nothing strange. Probably because for one it was a long time ago and also because it was a short game where he and another player cheesed us.
Anyway based on what ret, catz, etc. are saying I am convinced myself that whoever is playing those games on iGware's account is hacking.
OP I think it would be beneficial if you quoted some of the posts that are on pages not everyone will check back onto the original post. For example the posts about blind proxies on 4 player maps, and the one where a poster describes how advanced some of these hacks are, that prevent us from noticing when a player checks their fog of war. That is a HUGE thing that I feel would better your case because the number one thing defenders of iGware are saying is that they don't notice him checking fog (though this could also be explained by knowing he doesn't really need to if he has production tab and mini map hacks, he can just glance to see what units are being made and where they are moving on the mini map)
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On March 12 2011 16:59 IamaGrapeMan wrote:
so you aren't even going to read and respond to all the significant points he made? i already see you [ProTech] as an emotional player who would be likely to attribute reasons to your losses other than the fact that you were outplayed. i've met you on ladder and i've beaten you, and each time you've lost you've responded in some BM way and left the game like some petulant child. the fact that you don't even read someone's critiques of your serious accusation of hacking just further takes away credibility from your case.
i think pinkprincess's critiques clearly showed a spurious quality to a lot of your arguments.
On the contrary, Protech is probably so convinced by his own carefully detailed account of events that some of these other arguments seem contrived, a few even childish. Protech isn't going to rehash the same tired points at the drop of a pin just to rescue ignoramus non-believers. An RTS player is a skilled interpreter of events. Protech realizes that if you weren't persuaded by his surgical wall of text, you simply don't get it.
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On March 12 2011 17:41 TommyLove wrote:
protech have a long history of accusing players that are better than him since BW days. just thought i'll let you guys know
Not true, I only accused people of hacking who were hackers, and I was right 100% of the time. BWHF agent to see whom I accused and is on there.
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I am unconvinced. In the third game the lack of scouting is slightly suspicious but past a certain point you pen them in with speedlings and scouting isn't really an option. Also, if you're droning up and taking expos, going for a bajillion bunkers isn't entirely unreasonable. Arguably many things would have "directly countered" your build, banshees among them, siege tanks would also have been an option.
+ Show Spoiler +And I'm definitely not biased just because you haCk mofos BM me every time I win a game.
Edit: At this point I cannot tell if I'm just seeing things but the lack of scouting really is bizarre. No scans, no sacing overlords. Also the infini-bunker wall is similarly bizarre, though not necessarily proof of cheating. Normal people use rax instead.
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Protech is probably the most annoying poster I have ever read 7 pages of.
I think it's definitely possible that this guy is hacking, but you are acting like a 12 year old and being inflammatory and picking fights and BMing everyone who disagrees with you instead of actually listening to them is not a good way to spread the truth if you indeed are right.
"I am not even going to bother to read this"
"guilty until proven innocent"
Okay, then let's try this. Everyone in this thread is a hacker. If you can prove that you're not, I am just not gonna read what you type or accept anything you say. If you agree with me, you obviously aren't a hacker.
people need to calm down and the word "obvious" has never been more overused.
All the Liquid[Name] Players who have come in have given evidence for what they think is going on.Then they left. And they have in those short posts given more weight to ProTech's cause than every post he has ever made onthe subject. Take a deep breath or something. Go for a walk. Jesus.
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I have also heard they were hackers by a mutual friend, Protech. He has played several games against Sorcery and this guy and he claims the same thing.
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On March 12 2011 18:37 Eknoid4 wrote:
Protech is probably the most annoying poster I have ever read 7 pages of.
I think it's definitely possible that this guy is hacking, but you are acting like a 12 year old and being inflammatory and picking fights and BMing everyone who disagrees with you instead of actually listening to them is not a good way to spread the truth if you indeed are right.
"I am not even going to bother to read this"
"guilty until proven innocent"
Okay, then let's try this. Everyone in this thread is a hacker. If you can prove that you're not, I am just not gonna read what you type or accept anything you say. If you agree with me, you obviously aren't a hacker.
people need to calm down and the word "obvious" has never been more overused.
All the Liquid[Name] Players who have come in have given evidence for what they think is going on.Then they left. And they have in those short posts given more weight to ProTech's cause than every post he has ever made onthe subject. Take a deep breath or something. Go for a walk. Jesus.
:/
React to rage with more rage. Not advisable.
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Hey, watched the replays without reading your explanations before, just wanted to see if I am able to notice something that may prove that he's cheating:
I think your ebay/cloak- timing- statement in game 1 is wrong, both are starting at about the same time, the ebay slightly earlier so this is no point. You should probably remove this.
However, the other things you mentioned can be interpreted as cheating.
In my opinion, the most noticable point is the marines being sent to the bottom PF's. I can understand his first move: he sends two marines to scout the bottom bases(and harass if sth is there and undefended). But shortly after he stops them, moves about 10-15 marines to the bottom(without having scouted) and furthermore moves them to the high ground in range of the PF. Assuming that he is not cheating, what is the reasoning behind this(I think it's almost impossible to "sense" not only one but two PF's, isn't it?).
I think you mentioned everything regarding game 2, I just want to add one thing that I considered as strange:
At 11:12 he scouts three lings moving towards his base with his banshee and immediately pulls all scv's to defend. Considering the amout of lings that followed the three he scouted, this was a good move but how did he know that such a big force was incoming? If this is just common sense then I apologize, I just wouldn't react in that way when I see three lings for such a short amount of time.
Nothing to add to game 3.
All in all, I have to say it's strange that playing in top masters level forgives scouting so little(I'm quite sure that people at platinum/lower diamond scout more than he did in these three replays). He probably has a tl.net- account so maybe he can speak out on these accusations and clarify some points/explain the reasoning behind the actions that are being accused.
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On March 12 2011 18:44 laLAlA[uC] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 18:37 Eknoid4 wrote:
Protech is probably the most annoying poster I have ever read 7 pages of.
I think it's definitely possible that this guy is hacking, but you are acting like a 12 year old and being inflammatory and picking fights and BMing everyone who disagrees with you instead of actually listening to them is not a good way to spread the truth if you indeed are right.
"I am not even going to bother to read this"
"guilty until proven innocent"
Okay, then let's try this. Everyone in this thread is a hacker. If you can prove that you're not, I am just not gonna read what you type or accept anything you say. If you agree with me, you obviously aren't a hacker.
people need to calm down and the word "obvious" has never been more overused.
All the Liquid[Name] Players who have come in have given evidence for what they think is going on.Then they left. And they have in those short posts given more weight to ProTech's cause than every post he has ever made onthe subject. Take a deep breath or something. Go for a walk. Jesus. :/ React to rage with more rage. Not advisable.
There isn't any kind of anger or rage in my post at all? I say he's annoying. Eating a cheeseburger and having the top half fall off because it was put together poorly is annoying, but I don't know many people who would get mad over it.
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Interesting read. Based on people's experiences (the blind proxy stories) with iGware and the facts that his apm and macro are really low compared to other top players make this a suspicious case for certain. Since this guy is currently doing extremely well rising up to the top like crazy without the "skills" others at the top posses, it makes a good load of sense suspicion is rising.
Accusations or not, if a hacker hacks he'll be caught eventually. Especially in a game like SC2, where tournament play/streams are inevitable things if you wanna truly show you're real top material. Comparing it with football for a second: the FIFA has a world ranking of countries. Imagine a football player saying "I'm not going to the world cup, 'cause I'm just not into the whole best of the world thing. Our ranking is the highest anyway". Keep on dreaming. It means nothing. And if that player uses some kind of "ball hack" (getting a bit of a tricky comparisson now, but stick with me!) the whole world will witness it. And besides the fact the whole world will hate him, the person to hate him most is probably himself. Because he knows he hasn't been any good ever anyway. Sucks to be him. And if anyone ever asks him about what he did in the past, and he tells the story of him being a great football player, there's always going to be someone asking for his name and pointing out he was just a lowsy cheater.
That's why I dislike cheating. And after reading another thread about iGware in the past I got all excited 'cause people pointed out he pulled crazy stuff. Reading this thread makes that positive view turn a bit around. I hope it isn't true. Since hackers getting high up can damage the SC2 scene as a whole as well. Kinda like cycling is a known "who has the best doctor to drug" fest. Time will tell. Although the current state of the SC2 scene is far from such a scenario. So that makes me happy!
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You're wrong if you watch those and think he was hacking from these replays.
Game one: I saw that tech lab and factory and thought banshee instantly, it was a dead giveaway when the building scouted no add ons on the factor or rax, where is the gas going? And that's where I would drop marines, on the mineral line. And he ends up losing that match, do you have any idea how much shit he lost to blue flame hellion drops that if he was hacking he could have stropped, that match looked completely normal no hacking. Even if it was just a production tab hack he would have prepared for BCs before he just "oh shit" ran into them
Game two: He moves back to the ramp at 14 minutes because it's obvious you won't just let his marines kill your whole base, doesn't take a genius that you will come up the ramp to kill them, and you guys are the whoreist zerg people to play against, when your opponents double 10 pool mass ling it's obvious that your opponents aren't manner enough to play a macro game, so of course you prepare for banelings.
Game three: there are over 9000 lings just fucking chilling outside of his base what is he thinking they are doing there just scouting ahead? Those lings being there made it so obvious that a baneling bust was coming, iGware is just thinking while he plays :O stop QQ about your double Z whoreish baneling bust not working and make a real build instead of complaining about hacking.
TL;DR: OP is butt hurt about losing with his super gay 2v2 style and iGware was just thinking, these particular replays at least do absolutely nothing to prove iGware a hacker.
The most compelling evidence of his hacking is simply that he is number 2 on the ladder and seems to play very average.
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On March 12 2011 19:19 confusedcrib wrote:
You're a really low level player if you watch those and think he was hacking.
Game one: I saw that tech lab and factory and thought banshee instantly, it was a dead giveaway when the building scouted no add ons on the factor or rax, where is the gas going? And that's where I would drop marines, on the mineral line. And he ends up losing that match, do you have any idea how much shit he lost to blue flame hellion drops that if he was hacking he could have stropped, that match looked completely normal no hacking. Even if it was just a production tab hack he would have prepared for BCs before he just "oh shit" ran into them
Game two: He moves back to the ramp at 14 minutes because it's obvious you won't just let his marines kill your whole base, doesn't take a genius that you will come up the ramp to kill them, and you guys are the whoreist zerg people to play against, when your opponents double 10 pool mass ling it's obvious that your opponents aren't manner enough to play a macro game, so of course you prepare for banelings.
Game three: there are over 9000 lings just fucking chilling outside of his base what is he thinking they are doing there just scouting ahead? Those lings being there made it so obvious that a baneling bust was coming, iGware is just thinking while he plays :O stop QQ about your double Z whoreish baneling bust not working and make a real build instead of complaining about hacking.
TL;DR: OP is butt hurt about losing with his super gay 2v2 style and iGware was just thinking, these particular replays at least do absolutely nothing to prove iGware a hacker.
Game one: Ask yourself, if you know your opponent is going to blue-flame drop you because you're hacking. How would you go about stopping it without looking sus?
Game three: I think the point is that, he didn't see the 9000 lings chilling outside his base. And just blindly reacted to the 'great wall of china' barracks set up + 6 bunkers. Watch from his pov and not just x8 speed through it.
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On March 12 2011 19:19 confusedcrib wrote:
You're a really low level player if you watch those and think he was hacking.
you're saying drewbie a low player? There are many players who agrees with OP..
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On March 12 2011 19:31 MiraKul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 19:19 confusedcrib wrote:
You're a really low level player if you watch those and think he was hacking.
you're saying drewbie a low player? There are many players who agrees with OP.. Do you think he'll make it obvious that he hacks? Of course not~
From these replays* I'll add that now. perhaps he hacks in other games though. Not to mention I read Drewbie's post, he says pretty much the same thing I do.
And @ Mie_vet
The battlecruiser example in game 1 is something he could have stopped from the production tab hack
And in game 3 he sees some zerglings outside, and if there are that many I would assume there are more, especially with the tendencies of 2v2. I've played him in a 2v2, it was a while ago so no replay, but we went Marine Maurader, and they countered with hellion roach, definitely wasn't hacking then.
I'm not saying he doesn't hack, just that these replays are bad examples.
And shit no one on TL likes being called low level, I'll just delete that.
@Kasumimi
If you are being sarcastic and asking me if I watched the replay in first person I did, I watched all the replays in first person before reading the OP, to be sure I was unbiased.
The example you give of @ 20:30ish is the most compelling evidence. But he had ample reason to suspect a 3rd and 4th base, and that a planetary would be there, while this is good evidence, it is not enough for a conviction
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On March 12 2011 19:19 confusedcrib wrote:
You're a really low level player if you watch those and think he was hacking.
Did the high-level player look at the replays in first person? Looking at fog of war and acting accordingly doesn't bother you at all?
Also keep in mind he is trying to hide he is blatantly hacking. He won't stare at fog, but he can glance at the minimap or that production tab hack I keep hearing about and draw his conclusions.
The blue flame hellions slipping through happened bacause there's too many information to parse.
Seriously the 20:18 mark on the 1v1 rep just screams he is cheating. Unless he had the insight and the calmness to know there was a PF expansion and send a group of marines, split them, crossmap, on the ramp, with 2 clicks, without scouting.
*Edit: Reading through the thread a bit more careful I would like to add the OP is acting like a baby and overacting to any negative post.
My personal advice to you Mr.ProTech, being hostile doesn't help you get your message through.
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On March 12 2011 18:14 ProTech wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 17:41 TommyLove wrote:
protech have a long history of accusing players that are better than him since BW days. just thought i'll let you guys know Not true, I only accused people of hacking who were hackers, and I was right 100% of the time. BWHF agent to see whom I accused and is on there.
you accused surfer4life, merf, koolam, coogi, madwinner, 2pac, easterprotoss, etc for hacking in the past since they were better than you. as for sc2, you've accused Legend, undercover, sorcery, igware, megumixbear, etc since they beat you at team games.
you even named your clan haCk, so you can start accusing more people when you lose
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On March 12 2011 19:35 TommyLove wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 18:14 ProTech wrote:On March 12 2011 17:41 TommyLove wrote:
protech have a long history of accusing players that are better than him since BW days. just thought i'll let you guys know Not true, I only accused people of hacking who were hackers, and I was right 100% of the time. BWHF agent to see whom I accused and is on there. you accused surfer4life, merf, koolam, coogi, madwinner, 2pac, easterprotoss, etc for hacking in the past since they were better than you. as for sc2, you've accused Legend, undercover, sorcery, igware, megumixbear, etc since they beat you at team games. you even named your clan haCk, so you can start accusing more people when you lose
If he was right about those people then that actually stands to his credit. Was there a conclusion either way?
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EPT
