EPTBase Camera Inject. Queen melt down, SOLVED - Page 7
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FarbrorAbavna
Sweden4856 Posts
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Nolari
Netherlands51 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:13 ChefStarCraft wrote: The new method is no different. If your queens are a little off you may have to move your cursor a little yes. I don't quite understand the link between these two sentences. That you have to move your cursor is what makes it different. The old method centers on Hatcheries, so you never have to move the cursor. The new method centers on Queens. | ||
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ChefStarCraft
Canada350 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:17 Nolari wrote: I don't quite understand the link between these two sentences. That you have to move your cursor is what makes it different. The old method centers on Hatcheries, so you never have to move the cursor. The new method centers on Queens. In most cases you don't, sometimes you do in that case you may have to look before you spam, yes this makes it a little different. That dosent mean its problematic. When i do my method I don't spam, I let the screen center on the queen before i inject its still fast like the other way, its just more accurate now. With my new edit i added the tip that you can use shift+ inject button as follow current unit selection, so you really don't change much in your cycles. | ||
Chill
Calgary25963 Posts
On March 07 2011 14:33 DreamChaser wrote: Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point. SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players. I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it. I see people writing these programs to play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. It often ends up being a crutch instead of just learning to play well. Obviously that can't be true of every technique, but looking at this quickly I would put it in the crutch list rather than solid technique list. Obviously a lot of people disagree given the feedback, that's fine, but my opinion isn't unfounded. I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. I'm worried people get locked into running this cycle. By doing the actions one-by-one you get a lot more versatility in controlling your individual units. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP. Anyways, I'll continue to try it more before I post again. | ||
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ChefStarCraft
Canada350 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:29 Chill wrote: I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it. I see people writing these programs play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. This obviously doesn't take it that far, but I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP. Anyways, I'll continue to try it before I post again, but I haven't had too many issues with just using 66 77 88 for my first three Queens. My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors. I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op | ||
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Chill
Calgary25963 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:31 ChefStarCraft wrote: My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors. I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually. It's hard for me to put it on paper. | ||
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szil4rd
Germany11 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:29 Chill wrote: I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it. I see people writing these programs to play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. It often ends up being a crutch instead of just learning to play well. Obviously that can't be true of every technique, but looking at this quickly I would put it in the crutch list rather than solid technique list. Obviously a lot of people disagree given the feedback, that's fine, but my opinion isn't unfounded. I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. I'm worried people get locked into running this cycle. By doing the actions one-by-one you get a lot more versatility in controlling your individual units. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP. Anyways, I'll continue to try it more before I post again. My mainproblem as Zerg is the creepspread. i always used 55 inject 66 inject.. and so on, but when the game gets to mid-late game, its so hard to inject with this method AND spread creep aside of all the other things you have to do. This inject method is as simple as it can gets and it brings me extra time to care about other things. I wouldnt call it tunnel vision because it helps me focus on other things. Beside of that, i put my Hatches on 5 to 9 to be able to get to them individual. It also allows me to look at the status of the injection be tapping 5 while microing. | ||
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ChefStarCraft
Canada350 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:35 Chill wrote: Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually. It's hard for me to put it on paper. The way it sounds your saying people wont micro or consider a units capabilities. This isn't a crutch its a method to inject 2 or many hatcheries in a fast time, nothing more. As for the queens, if you like microing them better on individual groups thats your preference, It dosent mean you cant still cant play like normal, I actual proposed using shift+ backspace mouse button, and shift + forward mouse button, as create camera locations, to spread creep faster, I go over this in my thread there a link at the bottom of my op. I have had much success using my backspace inject method and this creep spread method together, I feel it saves me so much time to be able to spread those extra tumors. Before anyone wants to comment on me using my mouse for camera locations please read the thread this is in no way macro key related, and certainty is not abusing macro keys. Please check out the thread. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25963 Posts
Lots of people put all their Hatcheries on 5. Then they have Drones built from the main going to their third base and units from their third base rallying in backwards to their main base. If they controlled the Hatcheries individually, they would play a lot better. That's where I'm coming from. Of course in late game when injects are just a chore that mechanically has to be done, this technique would be very appropriate. | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:35 Chill wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 08 2011 00:31 ChefStarCraft wrote: My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors. I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually. It's hard for me to put it on paper. This might crystallize what you're trying to get across better Chill. What do you think you gain from individually controlling queens over doing a semi-automated approach like this? I used to argue that individual control lets you check energies more efficiently, lets you respond to drops better, etc., but I've found that queen injecting is one of those things that you just don't gain a lot by trying to be more precise or deliberate about your control with it. I feel it's better to pick the most automated way possible (that's comfortable for you) and then put that focus into something else, e.g., creep tumor spreading. | ||
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ChefStarCraft
Canada350 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:44 Chill wrote: Here's an analogy: Lots of people put all their Hatcheries on 5. Then they have Drones built from the main going to their third base and units from their third base rallying in backwards to their main base. If they controlled the Hatcheries individually, they would play a lot better. That's where I'm coming from. Of course in late game when injects are just a chore that mechanically has to be done, this technique would be very appropriate. I can see what your saying now, I play the way you explain, I do this by using my base camera hot key. I cycle in between hatcheries to do things with it, even when I'm not injecting, and treat each hatchery as you should. This is just something for people to learn and improve on, it dosent make this a bad method. If anything it allows you to inject faster, in larger quantities at once, saving time. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25963 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:44 Kambing wrote: This might crystallize what you're trying to get across better Chill. What do you think you gain from individually controlling queens over doing a semi-automated approach like this? I used to argue that individual control lets you check energies more efficiently, lets you respond to drops better, etc., but I've found that queen injecting is one of those things that you just don't gain a lot by trying to be more precise or deliberate about your control with it. I feel it's better to pick the most automated way possible (that's comfortable for you) and then put that focus into something else, e.g., creep tumor spreading. You're probably right. I like seeing the energy to plan my creep tumours and prepare transfusions if attacks are coming, but like you said thats a fringe situation. You would be better off having 10% faster injections and giving up this "luxury". I guess I'm seeing the following situation: 3 Hatcheries, 3 Queens. The expansion is getting harassed by a Banshee. The "old" player would 66v 88v and then 77 and fight the banshee. But the person using this technique wouldn't inject anything until everything is completely clear. | ||
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ChefStarCraft
Canada350 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:53 Chill wrote: You're probably right. I like seeing the energy to plan my creep tumours and prepare transfusions if attacks are coming, but like you said thats a fringe situation. You would be better off having 10% faster injections and giving up this "luxury". I guess I'm seeing the following situation: 3 Hatcheries, 3 Queens. The expansion is getting harassed by a Banshee. The "old" player would 66v 88v and then 77 and fight the banshee. But the person using this technique wouldn't inject anything until everything is completely clear. Thats very hard to say. The better play would inject and then deal with the harass, as needed | ||
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Chill
Calgary25963 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:51 ChefStarCraft wrote: This is just something for people to learn and improve on, it dosent make this a bad method. If anything it allows you to inject faster, in larger quantities at once, saving time. Yes, of course. I'd like to test it more before I comment again. I'll try it as soon as I have time because I find I'm very, very bad at the mindless injects that happen through the midgame. I guess another question I have: Does enabling the "follow current selection" option have any other side effects that the average person should worry about? | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:44 Chill wrote: Here's an analogy: Lots of people put all their Hatcheries on 5. Then they have Drones built from the main going to their third base and units from their third base rallying in backwards to their main base. If they controlled the Hatcheries individually, they would play a lot better. That's where I'm coming from. Of course in late game when injects are just a chore that mechanically has to be done, this technique would be very appropriate. This is the sticking point for me. In an 8 minute game, I won't use backspace injects at all. Its just not necessary. In a 25 minute macro game, when it's crucial that injections happen while armies are being microd, little tricks like this really shine. I don't think you're wrong at all in saying that having more control, or tighter control is a good thing, but there are also times in the game when speed is much more important than precision. Something like this makes those moments that much more manageable. It's a far cry from BW precision, but that doesn't mean we should limit ourselves by not taking advantage of the tools given to us. | ||
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ChefStarCraft
Canada350 Posts
In the case its doing that in your play, with my new method's set up i have follow current selection set to Q as a alternate hot key, to turn of whenever i need to. | ||
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ChefStarCraft
Canada350 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:58 MrBitter wrote: This is the sticking point for me. In an 8 minute game, I won't use backspace injects at all. Its just not necessary. In a 25 minute macro game, when it's crucial that injections happen while armies are being microd, little tricks like this really shine. I don't think you're wrong at all in saying that having more control, or tighter control is a good thing, but there are also times in the game when speed is much more important than precision. Something like this makes those moments that much more manageable. It's a far cry from BW precision, but that doesn't mean we should limit ourselves by not taking advantage of the tools given to us. Very well put, I don't use this method until i get 3 or more hatcheries with queens, sometimes 4, but i still use the base camera early game. | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:53 Chill wrote: You're probably right. I like seeing the energy to plan my creep tumours and prepare transfusions if attacks are coming, but like you said thats a fringe situation. You would be better off having 10% faster injections and giving up this "luxury". I guess I'm seeing the following situation: 3 Hatcheries, 3 Queens. The expansion is getting harassed by a Banshee. The "old" player would 66v 88v and then 77 and fight the banshee. But the person using this technique wouldn't inject anything until everything is completely clear. That situation is very real. And I definitely fall into that trap at times when I panic and I don't individually grab and one-off hotkey the queens that need to defend vs. are free to inject. It's basically 1a syndrome for queen defense. But yep, that's the fun part about discussing this. There's different trade-offs to each injection technique and different ways to patch them up. For example, in the early game you can hotkey your main and nat queens separately in addition to your uber-queen hotkey to get the best of both worlds. | ||
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Floydian
United Kingdom374 Posts
1) Like some other people, I'm not liking the fact that when you shift between bases, there's that initial camera wobble where it shifts to the queen, it slows down the process quite considerably for me. 2) Unlike simply using backspace, the camera will often repeat back to bases that have already been injected before shifting to un-injected bases. I was just testing this on Xel-naga, and it would often shift to my nat, then to my main, then instead of then shifting to my next base, it shifts first back to the nat. Means you have to cycle more times. Those two combined may be a deal breaker for me, gonna see if i get used to it though. Nice find though, kudos on discovering this! | ||
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Chill
Calgary25963 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:59 ChefStarCraft wrote: It will follow the next selection if you haven't paned away. In the case its doing that in your play, with my new method's set up i have follow current selection set to Q as a alternate hot key, to turn of whenever i need to. Oh wow, that's a huge issue to me... hmm. Guess I'll just add Q to the start and end of the cycle. | ||
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