If you are familiar with the backspace inject method, you are familiar then with having the off chance that your queens will run around the map do to accidentally clicking a hatchery without a queen beside it. Having included a new button in the cycles I have came across fixing this issue.
How it happened: While messing around with hotkeys, I have discovered that the Follow Current Selection overrides the base camera.
What is its purpose? : With the follow current selection hotkey activated it will allow you to cycle with the base camera zoning on your queens. This means that when cycling it wont bring the camera to your hatchery, it will bring it to the closest queen in the control group preventing accidental clicks.
How to change hotkeys: You can change Follow current selection and other hotkeys by going to option> hotkeys> global>camera, It will be the second down from the base camera
Notes: Its important to keep in mind this works by activating follow current selection before cycling. Shift must be held until the end of cycle. (unless you prefer to keep hitting the inject button (slower))
Set up: I have included follow current selection in my cycles as shift+e, and q as an alternate. I use w as base cameras and e as inject, with all queens on 4.
Execution: I will tap 4, then e, then shift+e (hold shift until end of cycle), I will then cycle with w and inject hatcheries by clicking them.
Conclusion: This works because following the current selection will activate your control group as a priority rather then zoning in on a hatchery when you cycle. This can be done effectively fast, you just need to have the right tempo.
Try it !, You have my word, practice makes perfect.
I apologize for the quickness in my post pre-edit, i was in a hurry, and also excited.
To re cap:
1) Go to the Hotkeys tab, and set "Follow Current Selection" to something. 2) Select queen hotkey group 3) Press Inject hotkey 4) Press Shift+ inject hotkey 5) Use the base camera to cycle the hatcheries and click to inject.(keep holding shift) 6) If you pan away it will automatically dis-activate follow current selection.
If you find it dosent and want to do it for yourself, you can set a alternate hot key to a spot you prefer. I prefer Q
MrBitter has kindly made a video explaining this method, Major props to him for bringing this to the limelight, and taking the time to make this video.
If you liked this post and are interested in the unexplored hotkey combinations and different toggles check out some more of my ideas to make our mechanics better:
On March 07 2011 12:28 ChefStarCraft wrote: It works by pressing shift+inject button (don't hold shift), inject button, then hold shift, cycle using base camera and inject like normal.
This will activate it and make it so you don't even have to practice a new button in your cycles.
I believe you'd be better off pressing the inject button first, hold shift, inject button again, then cycle through bases. This way you don't have to let go of shift and repress it. Minor perhaps but it's the same result and mechanically easier to perform.
Nice idea !, I will try it thank you
If it works I will edit,
It works by pressing inject button, shift+inject button, then hold shift, cycle using base camera and inject like normal. Differing form the backspace method by taping inject twice, once on its own, then tap shit+inject to toggle follow current selection, your activating it with buttons you we're going to press anyway with the backspace method.
This set up will make it so you don't even have to practice a new button in your backspace cycles. Just a extra tap. Since this is so easy, I don't see why someone wouldn't do this, especially if they are already backspace injecting.
This is a very friendly and forgiving way to add this key, I actually don't know why you wouldn't do this. It makes it so its very easy to get used too, you will learn even faster if your used to backspace injecting already.
Closing: The original creator of the backspace method is roark, you can find his thread at the top of the page. I only fixed it. In fact I love this guy for creating it, its helped my play so much, and inspired me to have my own style centered around the base camera and hotkeys.
The way i like to play is setting all my queens on one hotkey(4), and move around my bases with my backspace key (w). I move around with w even when I'm not injecting, to make drones, geysers, send drones to geysers, making a queen, shift+adding a queen to a control group. shift+adding a hatchery to a control group. even when i don't inject this is my main source of mobility.
If any hatchery at any point needs my attention i will mini map click it, and the shift+back mouse button the camera location, saving it for a brief moment, i will then reset it to creep spreading once the harass/attack/ scout ect. is dealt with.
It is ideal to do this whole method once you have 3-4 hatcheries at that point you will profit by doing them faster, shaving off seconds of your play at a time. Seconds can quickly add up to a minute, two minutes, ect.
With that small perk in mind, its always best to play with what your personal preference is, but that dosent make any other method wrong, or right.
I enjoy friendly people, and still want more practice partners, my friends list is full but if I like you theres always space, Chef on N/A Code:420
i was under the impression that if you had a control group with 3 queens or wahtever and you spawned larva on a hatch the closest one was picked to do it anyway? unless i'm misreading what it is you are trying to explain
On March 07 2011 12:30 RyanRushia wrote: i was under the impression that if you had a control group with 3 queens or wahtever and you spawned larva on a hatch the closest one was picked to do it anyway? unless i'm misreading what it is you are trying to explain
Let me try and explain better,
It makes it so you don't zone on top of the hatcheries when using the base camera, it makes it so you zone in on top of the queens with your base camera, in your control group, preventing miss clicking a hatchery without a queen beside it.
I don't see how this is easier than just looking at your screen and not injecting bases with no queens. The order which the hatches cycle through is the same every time, so there's nothing to worry about, is there?
The command is actually called, follow selection or something of the sort, it is in the camera hotkeys and basically what it does is it scrolls automatically on the unit you selected, not sure how this improves the injects but Im going to try it...
On March 07 2011 13:04 TheBlueMeaner wrote: The command is actually called, follow selection or something of the sort, it is in the camera hotkeys and basically what it does is it scrolls automatically on the unit you selected, not sure how this improves the injects but Im going to try it...
It prevents queen melt downs by following the queens when hitting the base camera, rather then following the hatcheries with the base camera.
On March 07 2011 13:10 hazz. wrote: What is a queen meltdown...
I you are familiar with the backspace inject method then you are familiar with having the off chance that your queens will run around the map, because you accidentally click a hatchery without a queen beside it.
Please read the whole post, It has been cleaned up.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Yeah, being efficient and slightly modifying something to be even more efficient with 1 key press is worth inferring reduced mental capacities. Or are you suggesting that Injectings is a very easy mechanics that everyone does perfectly already and theres no point looking into mechanics with more detail?
On March 07 2011 13:17 a176 wrote: Are you trying to say not to use backspace, but the follow unit camera button instead?
No you still use the base camera, its just used to center on top of the queens rather then the hatcheries, because the follow current selection enables that.
On March 07 2011 13:17 a176 wrote: Are you trying to say not to use backspace, but the follow unit camera button instead?
No you still use the base camera, its just used to center on top of the queens rather then the hatcheries, because the follow current selection enables that.
People love youtube video's
Maybe that would help get the idea across convincingly. If you dont upload one i will PM you bad words and upload my own and claim that you stole the idea.
but by the time that happens i will have edited TL cache so this post doesnt exist.
On March 07 2011 13:17 a176 wrote: Are you trying to say not to use backspace, but the follow unit camera button instead?
No you still use the base camera, its just used to center on top of the queens rather then the hatcheries, because the follow current selection enables that.
People love youtube video's
Maybe that would help get the idea across convincingly. If you dont upload one i will PM you bad words and upload my own and claim that you stole the idea.
but by the time that happens i will have edited TL cache so this post doesnt exist.
Dont test me
I lack the software to do this, taking the credit will only show how dishonoring of a person you are.
However if you would like to help, you can pm me the video, I will include it, and give you proper credit.
On March 07 2011 13:17 a176 wrote: Are you trying to say not to use backspace, but the follow unit camera button instead?
No you still use the base camera, its just used to center on top of the queens rather then the hatcheries, because the follow current selection enables that.
People love youtube video's
Maybe that would help get the idea across convincingly. If you dont upload one i will PM you bad words and upload my own and claim that you stole the idea.
but by the time that happens i will have edited TL cache so this post doesnt exist.
Dont test me
I lack the software to do this, taking the credit will only show how dishonoring of a person you are.
However if you would like to help, you can pm me the video, I will include it, and give you proper credit.
i probably be banned for telling bronze-plats that in depth strategies only work when you have sufficient mechanics.. so i wont be here to receive proper credits..
On March 07 2011 13:22 SlapMySalami wrote: does this effect any other part of gameplay? like for my other unit groups will it zoom to them when i select them?
if not this is marvelous
Once the cycle is complete. If you double tap another hotkey it will end the follow current selection button. You can also click it after the injects to turn it off.
On March 07 2011 13:17 a176 wrote: Are you trying to say not to use backspace, but the follow unit camera button instead?
No you still use the base camera, its just used to center on top of the queens rather then the hatcheries, because the follow current selection enables that.
People love youtube video's
Maybe that would help get the idea across convincingly. If you dont upload one i will PM you bad words and upload my own and claim that you stole the idea.
but by the time that happens i will have edited TL cache so this post doesnt exist.
Dont test me
I lack the software to do this, taking the credit will only show how dishonoring of a person you are.
However if you would like to help, you can pm me the video, I will include it, and give you proper credit.
i probably be banned for telling bronze-plats that in depth strategies only work when you have sufficient mechanics.. so i wont be here to receive proper credits..
i may still help u tho
Just explaining/showing the process is good. I agree plagiarizing sucks, but i am a man of my word and will give you proper credit. If you want to comment anymore about this please take it to pms.
Did you really just tell Chill to refrain from commenting?
I think you should use a term less vague than "queen meltdown", it seems to be causing a lot of confusion for readers. Neat idea, though.
I dint mean anything by it, all do respect. (manly targeted to others posting nonsense.) This thread is quickly filling up with stupidness When its a legit good idea.
Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
I don't quite get this method, and perhaps it is a bit too far, but injecting is so important why not modify? For example the backspace method seems to be the ideal method, since instead of "remembering" when to inject you can just spam it every bit so that you can gauge when to actually inject (see the bars above hatches as you cycle through the queens). Only problem is, with the default settings, if you have Queens on 4 or 6 then you have to jump your hand a bit to reach the Shift+Backspace on the right side of the keyboard.
Anyways, my hotkey is just Queens on 4, Inject on v, Backspace on E. I find this so easy because your left hand is already there and if you have that many queens, you can use both your index/middle finger to hit the E (backspace) key to cycle (to lessen stress on one finger and to be faster), sort of like trilling when you play the piano.
(You said "complex" so you're probably just talking about the OP's method specifically but just wanted to share my method to others too ^^)
Did you really just tell Chill to refrain from commenting?
a red tag shouldn't mean that you can BM an idea just because you wanted slightly higher post count.
Mechanics are a very important thing in being a good player, analysing your own hotkey usage, and figuring out ways of making it more efficient has become pretty popular recently.. and for good reason.
any other poster would have been warn/temp banned for what is essentially flamebaiting/trolling Zerg players and suggesting that its an easy mechanic that requires no thought or planning to execute flawlessly.
It's not quite "are you serious" but lead by example you know..
1) Go to the Hotkeys tab, and set "Follow Current Selection" to something. 2) Press "Follow Current Selection" hotkey (It's a toggle) 3) Select queens 4) Press V (or whatever hotkey you use for it) 5) Hold shift and spam backspace+click 6) Turn off "Follow Current Selection" (press hotkey)
This method means that you will no longer cycle through your hatcheries without queens at them.
a red tag shouldn't mean that you can BM an idea just because you wanted slightly higher post count.
Mechanics are a very important thing in being a good player, analysing your own hotkey usage, and figuring out ways of making it more efficient has become pretty popular recently.. and for good reason.
any other poster would have been warn/temp banned for what is essentially flamebaiting/trolling Zerg players and suggesting that its an easy mechanic that requires no thought or planning to execute flawlessly.
It's not quite "are you serious" but lead by example you know..
Yep, but then again the guy did make a blatant insult "stop casting" or something like that. Although Chill's comment was quite confuzzling too, considering that something as important as larvae-injecting should be as efficient as possible. Although ideally it would be great if no one would BM at all, according to TL's rules they say they try to make everything good but in the end it is still "their house" and we have to play by their rules.
On March 07 2011 13:49 Goobus wrote: Here's how you do it:
1) Go to the Hotkeys tab, and set "Follow Current Selection" to something. 2) Press "Follow Current Selection" hotkey (It's a toggle) 3) Select queens 4) Press V (or whatever hotkey you use for it) 5) Hold shift and spam backspace+click 6) Turn off "Follow Current Selection" (press hotkey)
This method means that you will no longer cycle through your hatcheries without queens at them.
Thank you, I have added this to my first post, with minor tweaking (wasnt correct)
awesome video. Kinda makes me dizzy the way it smoothly pans toward the queen, but this now looks like the ultimate way to inject, its got the control of the 5/6/7/8/ in terms of no wandering queens but the speed and hotkey preservation of the backspace method.
heh well that opens up 5-6 hotkeys for me to be utilising every game.
Thanks Bitter and big thanks to chef for working this one out.
Just watched the video. Thanks Chef and Mr.Bitter. Now if only they made Queens generate 25 energy during an inject instead of 24. Or am I just imagining things?
On March 07 2011 13:49 Goobus wrote: Here's how you do it:
1) Go to the Hotkeys tab, and set "Follow Current Selection" to something. 2) Press "Follow Current Selection" hotkey (It's a toggle) 3) Select queens 4) Press V (or whatever hotkey you use for it) 5) Hold shift and spam backspace+click 6) Turn off "Follow Current Selection" (press hotkey)
This method means that you will no longer cycle through your hatcheries without queens at them.
Thank you, I have added this to my first post, with minor tweaking (wasnt correct)
Not sure why you think what he wrote there isn't correct. When you press the "Follow Current Selection" hotkey really doesn't matter, although it makes more sense to do it after you select the queen but before you press larva inject and hold down the shift key.
Interesting method though, but I think it was faster for me to just pay attention to hatcheries that don't have a queen next to them. Or to make sure that all my hatcheries have queens.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
On March 07 2011 13:49 Goobus wrote: Here's how you do it:
1) Go to the Hotkeys tab, and set "Follow Current Selection" to something. 2) Press "Follow Current Selection" hotkey (It's a toggle) 3) Select queens 4) Press V (or whatever hotkey you use for it) 5) Hold shift and spam backspace+click 6) Turn off "Follow Current Selection" (press hotkey)
This method means that you will no longer cycle through your hatcheries without queens at them.
Thank you, I have added this to my first post, with minor tweaking (wasnt correct)
Not sure why you think what he wrote there isn't correct. When you press the "Follow Current Selection" hotkey really doesn't matter, although it makes more sense to do it after you select the queen but before you press larva inject and hold down the shift key.
Interesting method though, but I think it was faster for me to just pay attention to hatcheries that don't have a queen next to them. Or to make sure that all my hatcheries have queens.
I see, i guess it dosent matter when its selected. Apologies, I still use base camera, to cycle in between hatcheries, I just use this new method when i inject them.
You could bind W to follow current selection and shift+W to base camera, since you're holding shift anyway when cycling. This will save you from having to use the tilde key. So this will be 4, v, w, hold shift, w, click, w, click, etc.
I personally use E for inject and shift+E to cycle hatches, so I've bound shift+W to "center on current selection". It does the same thing but you hold it instead of it being a toggle. So for me I'm going to be holding shift+w and tapping e+click to inject. So 4, e, hold shift+w, e, click, e, click, etc. I don't want to use up W because I do like it when I'm playing protoss.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
most people didnt play broodwar, chill.
Hahaha that is so true. Broodwar players will probably look at this thread and be like, "wait, SC2 is so easy as it is, do people really have problems with that?" But I think every little applicable trick can help if it can reduce the probability of catastrophic failure! Great thread ChefSC, and great video MrBitter!
Slightly off topic, but in regards to the backspace trick, with the custom hotkeys I rebound backspace to spacebar and its a lot easier for me (for those like me who have trouble reaching across the keyboard). Try it out if you want.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
Just a warning, even with follow unit toggled, the camera will still jump to the next hatch before it snaps back to the closest queen. So if you're spammy with base cam + clicking like me, you can still accidentally click a non-queen hatch and have a queen run off.
On March 07 2011 14:55 Kambing wrote: Just a warning, even with follow unit toggled, the camera will still jump to the next hatch before it snaps back to the closest queen. So if you're spammy with base cam + clicking like me, you can still accidentally click a non-queen hatch and have a queen run off.
Yes, its important not to spam, which was one way to stop the queen melt down, but this offers a more accurate system, that can be done quicker without making a mistake. To avoid this simply don't click a hatchery until its centered on a queen.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
That said, just because Brood War was a succes despite it's archaic and broken UI is not a good reason to continue using an archaic and broken UI in the future. All of those things you mention in the above paragraph are items I consider FIXES to the mechanics of the game. They are all items that should have been the norm to begin with.
I'm not convinced that the mechanics of the game are what made it so legendary. I'm pretty sure it became a commercial success in Korea because of it's viewer-friendly interface. It's entertaining to watch a war happen on-screen, and the units were big enough, they had unique and interesting abilities, and the game played at just the right speed that you can watch it, and be entertained. I would also argue that the average viewer didn't much care about HOW those armies were being made, only that they WERE made and led to an entertaining game.
The people who care about the mechanics, by and large, are players, and the best players were the ones capable of building their army, and doing something entertaining with it. At the end of the day, SC2 allows players to build an army, and do something entertaining with it, and thus, at the end of day, it's all the same to the average viewer.
What *I* would argue is going to hold SC2 back is it's current lack of interesting and unique units, and the Death-Ball style of play that's so prevalent right now. But that has very little to do with mechanics, and very much to do with unit-design.
This is how I did it. I changed the v buttom to inject for queens to p. Now all I do is 99p88p77p66p which is A LOT easier than 99v88v77v because v is much further away from the numbers than p.
very sick! i already heavily use the backspace method myself and might just incorporate this as well for those uncommon situations of losing a queen or what have you.
On March 07 2011 15:03 Nemireck wrote: What *I* would argue is going to hold SC2 back is it's current lack of interesting and unique units, and the Death-Ball style of play that's so prevalent right now. But that has very little to do with mechanics, and very much to do with unit-design.
On March 07 2011 12:40 OwlFeet wrote: sounds good, a little hard to follow since the OP is written like a spam email.
On March 07 2011 12:28 ChefStarCraft wrote: HUGE NEWS !
...
This is 100% accurate and fast.
... All you need to do is include
...
Try it !, You have my word.
I dint have trouble understanding this when writing it.
If your complaining about my delivery, please keep it to yourself
I will make a effort to clean it up
Well that's alright then! As you long as you can understand your post the thread definitely serves its purpose, oh wait.
It was choppy, I organized it to perfection though. As close to perfect as i could. Some people had trouble following, others dint, I'm at fault though I should have put more time into it before submitting so fast, something i wont lose sight of again.
Nice find but in a heated battle this can really mess you up if you forget to toggle off follow selection. Because whaterver unit or building you select it will start to follow it. But still I like it. Thanks for the post.
I'm so going to practice this. The occasional queen stroll was the only reason why I didn't practice the backspace method. This combined with shift-egg selection is going to speed up my zerg play by seconds!
But since it was said on stream you won't be able to modify hotkeys on competitive LANs i really dunno. I ll refrain from hotkey changes like that even if i am never able to compete at one myself =D.
Dont get me wrong, IMO zergs really are hardest race, but with this... You build pool, extractor, roach warren and hydra den/spire, expand and add extractors - and thats about only 10 actions in whole game that actually requires zerg player to move his camera back to his base.
With new SC2 UI zergs have very limited things to do that can not be done from control groups. Its not like SC1. You just press 4/5 wherever your hatches are and make supply, units, drones whatever, dont build anything except very few limited structures...
So queens are needed - to force zergs to go back to their base. Easier this mechanics will get, more likely they will change them.
No matter how hard can zerg play actually be, if last moment you need to see your base is around 8 min, and from that you can watch your army for rest of the game, something is wrong.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why would you even say that, Chill? I mean you can say that about pretty much everything - why do we need huge hotkey thread if the hotkeys are already much more easier than in BW?^^
Btw that's nothing complex, just a nice new method which looks more universal than backspace method.
wow this is nice. But hell it will take time to get used to it, if I think back to the time, when I was looking for my way of injecting, it was hell of a work to get used to it.
Alright so, I've thought about this for a while. From my perspective the main issue with the backspace method was if you were using one queen for 2 Hatcheries next to each other.
Note: My point would be solved if you literally use 1 queen per hatch, then yea it wouldn't be a problem.
Due to the delay of casting "Inject Larva" on a hatchery while injecting the hatch next to that queen which shares both, it would literally make other queens run for it anyways. This is if the hatch is close enough to the queen, other than that you could put it slightly further away to avoid this, but then cast it manually onto that single hatchery.
Either way, that was my main issue with the backspace method, but nice find.
I haven't read every single post in this thread but wouldn't it be more simple to just hit 4 S to make all queens stop moving? Replace 4 and S with your own setup, obviously.
once i find an efficient setup for the toggle thing that doesnt block any other race's hotkey (since iam playing random) i think this will be a huge improvement. I used the backspace method before and it was kinda annoying once you got into the lategame or you had some macrohatches you didnt want to get extra queens for.
It feels smooth the only problems i had so far is when i try to put a macro hatch close to another hatch and the queen is out of energy. It is also possible to spamclick too fast if a hatch without a queen is too close to another hatch but not quite on the screen(about the distance XNC nat -> main), so the queens run to the hatch that you can only see for miliseconds on the screen.
Just tested it on YABOT, man this is a great find. I wasn't convince with the backspace method because of that possible mess ( and watching Mrbitter convince me it wasn't so good :p ), but now i will definitely give it a try for the next weeks.
I was using the base-camera-method and had the same problems with my queens beeing retarded and running all over the map.
Now i can fit my macro routine easily even in the midst of a hard micro battle, as i don't need to waste time with my mouse hand anymore.
Thanks @OP for making the life of zergs easier. Great find.
@People who are for some reason critzising this:
This not cheating. This is not using a macro. I do a button-press for all of my actions and it just happens to be by far the most efficent way to deal with the macro-task that is Larva Spawn. This is a great find and i have no doubt that it will become the standard mechanic for doing it. It's just so much faster than injecting over the minimap or with each queen individually hotkeyed.
The major advantage is: It can be done blind. You don't need see where your hatches or queens are. You only need to center your cursor in the middle of the screen, the rest does your left hand.
I'm so going to practice this. The occasional queen stroll was the only reason why I didn't practice the backspace method. This combined with shift-egg selection is going to speed up my zerg play by seconds!
What is this? I am intrigued, and am wondering if there's some trick I don't know about. Do you mean adding the eggs of morphing units into a hotkey group via shift + #, or is this something else?
And to the OP (and Mr Bitters for making the youtube vid) - great job. I'll be trying this one out straight away next time I play SC2! I'm a little concerned the camera looks kind of... "wobbly" when you're cycling through the bases, potentially making it a bit harder to hit the hatches. I'll soon see for myself though
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
What was the purpose of this post? I can see no reason why anyone would think this subject is frivolous. Injecting isn't "difficult" by any means, regardless of what technique you use. Even slowly scrolling around the screen with the mouse isn't "difficult". It IS, however, time consuming - and any technique to improve either the speed or reliability of injecting is something that is very welcome indeed.
If you think any mechanics of SC2 aren't difficult enough for your tastes then you should make a seperate thread about it. In THIS thread, however, we want to try to perform as best we can with the mechanics that are in place.
On March 07 2011 13:34 Keitzer wrote: obviously 1 queen per hatch is hard to get
There's no need to be a smartass. In very lategame situations where you have loads of hatcheries you don't necessarily WANT a queen on every hatchery because you won't be able to make use of all the larvae, and so those queens are just using up supply that could be spent elsewhere. Not to mention that queens can be killed by drops, and sometimes new hatcheries won't have queens yet too. Or I might want to pull several queens to aid in a battle, but still have my queens that ARE still at hatcheries inject.....
Still not 100% there, a few flaws with hatches being close together and queens still running for them if you do it too fast. I was considering adding S to the end of my inject cycle as a method but then realized there is a flaw with that too, if a queen has some how been moved she will never get to the hatch to inject before I press S and therefore waste time too... this is still a tricky situation but I'm glad people continue to work on it.
On March 07 2011 21:36 aka_star wrote: Still not 100% there, a few flaws with hatches being close together and queens still running for them if you do it too fast. I was considering adding S to the end of my inject cycle as a method but then realized there is a flaw with that too, if a queen has some how been moved she will never get to the hatch to inject before I press S and therefore waste time too... this is still a tricky situation but I'm glad people continue to work on it.
That is only if you are mindlessly spamming. You can do this effectively fast. While still spamming at reasonable speed. There is no way to 100% solve this problem while spamming mindlessly. This method allows there to be that perfect percentage, but you need to spam at a reasonable speed, you need to allow a very small delay to let it center to the queen then inject.
Why did the poster get "User Warned" for posting a comment back to an admin that posted a message that had no merit, and no insight other then an ignorant remark. Am I wrong, or does red imply you can post whatever you want, maybe the warning sign should have went to the admin instead, but who would ever imagine that.
Oh, on a side note, the mech. skills of chill can be presented watching Bo5 chill vs combat-ex : P went there. This is no bm, just factual representation, check youtube. It's day9 special.
On March 07 2011 21:49 Existor wrote: You can multi-inject with selected queens and ONE BIG FINGER with this hotkey scheme (everything binded to mouse)
You can do it with any mouse, that have 2+ sub-buttons under big finger
I used to use those buttons a lot but I don't recommend it because it gave me pains, which I've never gotten just using a mouse / kb before. Could've been me, but I think there's something about that button placement that's not conducive to pressing them a lot.
On March 07 2011 21:36 aka_star wrote: Still not 100% there, a few flaws with hatches being close together and queens still running for them if you do it too fast. I was considering adding S to the end of my inject cycle as a method but then realized there is a flaw with that too, if a queen has some how been moved she will never get to the hatch to inject before I press S and therefore waste time too... this is still a tricky situation but I'm glad people continue to work on it.
That is only if you are mindlessly spamming. You can do this effectively fast. While still spamming at reasonable speed. There is no way to 100% solve this problem while spamming mindlessly. This method allows there to be that perfect percentage, but you need to spam at a reasonable speed, you need to allow a very small delay to let it center to the queen then inject.
Hmmm, If I can not mindlessly spam then I don't see how it is faster than the alternative which is
1) select queens 2) hold shift +V 3) press backspace 4) visual check, is queen next to hatch? 4 Yes) Click 4 No) repeat step 3
Saving the need for an extra button/toggle press Introduced here, since we still need a visual check to see if we've given it enough time before we can click.
So its agreed its not a 100% full proof method, which is a shame - I was getting my hopes up too much when I logged in this morning and spotted the post. Would be nice to have this inject simplified so we can maximize our army & be like the swarm blizzard intended without stupidly high APM. I'm probably still going to stick with the 6/7/8 Queen method just seems less problematic at this time.
Interesting find, really. I had so many queens near xel'naga towers during games that I can't tell, then i figured out a way to use stop or hold
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Comparing to mule-cb or brood war macro mechanics? Yes for the former, no for the latter (in my experiences ofc). I agree with the fact that (even though being more difficult than cb-mule,) it's not as difficult as you said. But, figuring out how to do things (that are already not that difficult) easier and easier improves gameplay. It's like laying mines by selecting vultures one by one or magic-boxing vultures so that they all can lay mines in a single command (there was a technique for that, I sometimes could do, sometimes could not when playing Terran campaign).
I also agree with the fact that using tilde key for the sake of not going to hatcheries without queens or using hold or stop has the same difficulty level for someone who got used to.
Hmmm, If I can not mindlessly spam then I don't see how it is faster than the alternative which is
1) select queens 2) hold shift +V 3) press backspace 4) visual check, is queen next to hatch? 4 Yes) Click 4 No) repeat step
A visual check is always slower than doing something by habit. Yes, you actually need to CONTROL your clicks while doing that, but if you get a rythm and leave about half-a-second inbetween each click you still need no visual check, get no wandering queens and are still faster than pretty much every other method. Why you would want to spam your clicks if you can achieve the same thing with properly timed controlled clicks is beyond me. It might take some time to learn it, but that goes for everything in SC.
On March 07 2011 22:27 Ctuchik wrote: For some reason I can't disengage the follow cam by scrolling or selecting a different group. I need to hit the hotkey again.
When you're following a unit, edge scrolling has a little bit of slack so that you don't break the follow by accident. You have to scroll off the edge of the screen for a little bit longer than you would expect to untoggle follow.
This technique sounds interesting. I get quite some queen meltdowns during the later stages of the game when I have 3+ bases and 1-2 extra hatcheries. Really, any way to reduce the mechanics gap between Z and T/P is more than welcome!
Just wanted to tip others use follow cam and base cam on same key, just have one while shift is pressed.
Have follow cam on tilt (one next to 1), and base cam on shift + tilt. Makes is sooo easy to do since you will be holding down shift anyway to incect all the bases.
Queens -> V -> Tilt -> Shift down -> Tilt untill done -> Shift up
On March 07 2011 23:03 Eka wrote: Just wanted to tip others use follow cam and base cam on same key, just have one while shift is pressed.
Have follow cam on tilt (one next to 1), and base cam on shift + tilt. Makes is sooo easy to do since you will be holding down shift anyway to incect all the bases.
Queens -> V -> Tilt -> Shift down -> Tilt untill done -> Shift up
This will make it so its automatic, wow. This is awesome thankyou.
After reading the OP I thought this might be a nice technique. But as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, if you spam click to fast, you will hit hatches with no queens attached. So I searched the forums a little and found Queen Inject Using Camera Hotkeys.
What I currently gonna try is this setup: Rebind some screenlocation hotkeys to shift+Q/W/E/R and set them to your hatches with queens available. Select your queens, hit shift+V, hold shift and then hit Q click, W click, E click, R click.
On March 07 2011 23:03 Eka wrote: Just wanted to tip others use follow cam and base cam on same key, just have one while shift is pressed.
Have follow cam on tilt (one next to 1), and base cam on shift + tilt. Makes is sooo easy to do since you will be holding down shift anyway to incect all the bases.
Queens -> V -> Tilt -> Shift down -> Tilt untill done -> Shift up
This will make it so its automatic, wow. This is awesome thankyou.
You can make the motion completely automatic and exactly as before by setting `Shift' to `Center on Current Selection' (rather than `Follow Current Selection'). `Center on Current Selection' is a modifier instead of toggling, so if you bind this and do the usual motion:
it all works out peachy and you don't have to change what you're used to. However, binding shift will cause your camera to snap to your selection whenever you hit shift which is a no-go for most people.
(Note: doing something similar by setting base camera and center both on, e.g., shift+~ or ~ and shift+~, doesn't work because 1) non-shift hotkeys fire do not fire if their shift counterpart is bound and 2) you can't bind multiple global functions to a single hotkey.)
Hmmm, If I can not mindlessly spam then I don't see how it is faster than the alternative which is
1) select queens 2) hold shift +V 3) press backspace 4) visual check, is queen next to hatch? 4 Yes) Click 4 No) repeat step
A visual check is always slower than doing something by habit. Yes, you actually need to CONTROL your clicks while doing that, but if you get a rythm and leave about half-a-second inbetween each click you still need no visual check, get no wandering queens and are still faster than pretty much every other method. Why you would want to spam your clicks if you can achieve the same thing with properly timed controlled clicks is beyond me. It might take some time to learn it, but that goes for everything in SC.
so the options are mindlessly clicking but leaving half a second or attempt to do the visual check within that half second, I don't think there is much difference with either method when starting out. However over time I'm sure the visual check would be faster if its just a glance and one would get use to pattern as it cycles through hatcheries.
On March 07 2011 14:47 FabledIntegral wrote: lol i still inject using the minimap
EDIT: as in i click the base of each minimap and then manually inject each one :S
This is exactly what I do, and in fact I was totally unaware that people were arguing against it. I thought it was pretty much decided to be the fastest-cleanest method if you're self-aware when it comes to queen energy?
I've never bothered to expand my knowledge on all of these 'Queen mechanics' much because I didn't know people had apparently found a 'better' way (a way that stops your queen from running across the map? If so, I don't know why there is an entire godamn thread dedicated to saving yourself ONE SINGLE CLICK, I never thought you needed to come up with any sort of 'technique' to stop your queen from running across the map.).
On March 07 2011 14:47 FabledIntegral wrote: lol i still inject using the minimap
EDIT: as in i click the base of each minimap and then manually inject each one :S
This is exactly what I do, and in fact I was totally unaware that people were arguing against it. I thought it was pretty much decided to be the fastest-cleanest method if you're self-aware when it comes to queen energy?
I've never bothered to expand my knowledge on all of these 'Queen mechanics' much because I didn't know people had apparently found a 'better' way (a way that stops your queen from running across the map? If so, I don't know why there is an entire godamn thread dedicated to saving yourself ONE SINGLE CLICK, I never thought you needed to come up with any sort of 'technique' to stop your queen from running across the map.).
Its like coffee, everyone have their own preference.
I love this method because it fits my way of using my mouse and keyboard. I learn pattern once, and then its there.
Just tried this new method out, and I can't say I'm a fan. Perhaps I'm "doing it wrong"?
With the "old" backspace inject method you can keep your mouse cursor still during the whole thing. With this "new" method the camera centers on the Queen instead of the Hatchery, so that will only work if all Queens have the same position relative to their Hatcheries.
I end up losing all of the potential speed gain again by having to look where my Hatchery is and reposition the mouse cursor accordingly.
I now have it so follow unit selections activated with shift + inject hotkey,
It works by pressing shift+inject button (don't hold shift), inject button, then hold shift, cycle using base camera and inject like normal.
This will activate it and make it so you don't even have to practice a new button in your cycles
This is a very friendly way as well, it makes it so its very easy to get used too, you will learn even faster if your used to backspace injecting already.
On March 07 2011 23:58 Nolari wrote: Just tried this new method out, and I can't say I'm a fan. Perhaps I'm "doing it wrong"?
With the "old" backspace inject method you can keep your mouse cursor still during the whole thing. With this "new" method the camera centers on the Queen instead of the Hatchery, so that will only work if all Queens have the same position relative to their Hatcheries.
I end up losing all of the potential speed gain again by having to look where my Hatchery is and reposition the mouse cursor accordingly.
I have the same problem. i try to position my queens on the right side of the hatch, but this is not easy during mid-late game.
I also use different keys to stay on the left side of the keypoard. istead of tilt, i use ^ For basecamera i use shift+^ I just have to slide my hand over shift and circumflex to do the inject and its very fast.
On March 07 2011 23:58 Nolari wrote: Just tried this new method out, and I can't say I'm a fan. Perhaps I'm "doing it wrong"?
With the "old" backspace inject method you can keep your mouse cursor still during the whole thing. With this "new" method the camera centers on the Queen instead of the Hatchery, so that will only work if all Queens have the same position relative to their Hatcheries.
I end up losing all of the potential speed gain again by having to look where my Hatchery is and reposition the mouse cursor accordingly.
I have the same problem. i try to position my queens on the right side of the hatch, but this is not easy during mid-late game.
I also use different keys to stay on the left side of the keypoard. istead of tilt, i use ^ For basecamera i use shift+^ I just have to slide my hand over shift and circumflex to do the inject and its very fast.
The new method is no different. If your queens are a little off you may have to move your cursor a little yes.
I prefer w as base camera, e for inject, 4 for all queens, shift+e as follow current selection. I then hit shift + E (don't hold), E, hold shift and then I cycle with w and click.
On March 08 2011 00:13 ChefStarCraft wrote: The new method is no different. If your queens are a little off you may have to move your cursor a little yes.
I don't quite understand the link between these two sentences. That you have to move your cursor is what makes it different. The old method centers on Hatcheries, so you never have to move the cursor. The new method centers on Queens.
On March 08 2011 00:13 ChefStarCraft wrote: The new method is no different. If your queens are a little off you may have to move your cursor a little yes.
I don't quite understand the link between these two sentences. That you have to move your cursor is what makes it different. The old method centers on Hatcheries, so you never have to move the cursor. The new method centers on Queens.
In most cases you don't, sometimes you do in that case you may have to look before you spam, yes this makes it a little different. That dosent mean its problematic. When i do my method I don't spam, I let the screen center on the queen before i inject its still fast like the other way, its just more accurate now.
With my new edit i added the tip that you can use shift+ inject button as follow current unit selection, so you really don't change much in your cycles.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs to play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. It often ends up being a crutch instead of just learning to play well. Obviously that can't be true of every technique, but looking at this quickly I would put it in the crutch list rather than solid technique list. Obviously a lot of people disagree given the feedback, that's fine, but my opinion isn't unfounded.
I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. I'm worried people get locked into running this cycle. By doing the actions one-by-one you get a lot more versatility in controlling your individual units. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it more before I post again.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. This obviously doesn't take it that far, but I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it before I post again, but I haven't had too many issues with just using 66 77 88 for my first three Queens.
My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors.
I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. This obviously doesn't take it that far, but I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it before I post again, but I haven't had too many issues with just using 66 77 88 for my first three Queens.
My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors.
I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op
Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs to play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. It often ends up being a crutch instead of just learning to play well. Obviously that can't be true of every technique, but looking at this quickly I would put it in the crutch list rather than solid technique list. Obviously a lot of people disagree given the feedback, that's fine, but my opinion isn't unfounded.
I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. I'm worried people get locked into running this cycle. By doing the actions one-by-one you get a lot more versatility in controlling your individual units. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it more before I post again.
My mainproblem as Zerg is the creepspread. i always used 55 inject 66 inject.. and so on, but when the game gets to mid-late game, its so hard to inject with this method AND spread creep aside of all the other things you have to do. This inject method is as simple as it can gets and it brings me extra time to care about other things. I wouldnt call it tunnel vision because it helps me focus on other things.
Beside of that, i put my Hatches on 5 to 9 to be able to get to them individual. It also allows me to look at the status of the injection be tapping 5 while microing.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. This obviously doesn't take it that far, but I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it before I post again, but I haven't had too many issues with just using 66 77 88 for my first three Queens.
My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors.
I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op
Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually.
It's hard for me to put it on paper.
The way it sounds your saying people wont micro or consider a units capabilities. This isn't a crutch its a method to inject 2 or many hatcheries in a fast time, nothing more.
As for the queens, if you like microing them better on individual groups thats your preference, It dosent mean you cant still cant play like normal,
I actual proposed using shift+ backspace mouse button, and shift + forward mouse button, as create camera locations, to spread creep faster, I go over this in my thread there a link at the bottom of my op.
I have had much success using my backspace inject method and this creep spread method together, I feel it saves me so much time to be able to spread those extra tumors.
Before anyone wants to comment on me using my mouse for camera locations please read the thread this is in no way macro key related, and certainty is not abusing macro keys. Please check out the thread.
Lots of people put all their Hatcheries on 5. Then they have Drones built from the main going to their third base and units from their third base rallying in backwards to their main base. If they controlled the Hatcheries individually, they would play a lot better. That's where I'm coming from.
Of course in late game when injects are just a chore that mechanically has to be done, this technique would be very appropriate.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. This obviously doesn't take it that far, but I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it before I post again, but I haven't had too many issues with just using 66 77 88 for my first three Queens.
My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors.
I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op
Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually.
It's hard for me to put it on paper.
This might crystallize what you're trying to get across better Chill. What do you think you gain from individually controlling queens over doing a semi-automated approach like this?
I used to argue that individual control lets you check energies more efficiently, lets you respond to drops better, etc., but I've found that queen injecting is one of those things that you just don't gain a lot by trying to be more precise or deliberate about your control with it. I feel it's better to pick the most automated way possible (that's comfortable for you) and then put that focus into something else, e.g., creep tumor spreading.
On March 08 2011 00:44 Chill wrote: Here's an analogy:
Lots of people put all their Hatcheries on 5. Then they have Drones built from the main going to their third base and units from their third base rallying in backwards to their main base. If they controlled the Hatcheries individually, they would play a lot better. That's where I'm coming from.
Of course in late game when injects are just a chore that mechanically has to be done, this technique would be very appropriate.
I can see what your saying now, I play the way you explain, I do this by using my base camera hot key. I cycle in between hatcheries to do things with it, even when I'm not injecting, and treat each hatchery as you should.
This is just something for people to learn and improve on, it dosent make this a bad method.
If anything it allows you to inject faster, in larger quantities at once, saving time.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. This obviously doesn't take it that far, but I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it before I post again, but I haven't had too many issues with just using 66 77 88 for my first three Queens.
My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors.
I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op
Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually.
It's hard for me to put it on paper.
This might crystallize what you're trying to get across better Chill. What do you think you gain from individually controlling queens over doing a semi-automated approach like this?
I used to argue that individual control lets you check energies more efficiently, lets you respond to drops better, etc., but I've found that queen injecting is one of those things that you just don't gain a lot by trying to be more precise or deliberate about your control with it. I feel it's better to pick the most automated way possible (that's comfortable for you) and then put that focus into something else, e.g., creep tumor spreading.
You're probably right. I like seeing the energy to plan my creep tumours and prepare transfusions if attacks are coming, but like you said thats a fringe situation. You would be better off having 10% faster injections and giving up this "luxury".
I guess I'm seeing the following situation: 3 Hatcheries, 3 Queens. The expansion is getting harassed by a Banshee. The "old" player would 66v 88v and then 77 and fight the banshee. But the person using this technique wouldn't inject anything until everything is completely clear.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. This obviously doesn't take it that far, but I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it before I post again, but I haven't had too many issues with just using 66 77 88 for my first three Queens.
My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors.
I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op
Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually.
It's hard for me to put it on paper.
This might crystallize what you're trying to get across better Chill. What do you think you gain from individually controlling queens over doing a semi-automated approach like this?
I used to argue that individual control lets you check energies more efficiently, lets you respond to drops better, etc., but I've found that queen injecting is one of those things that you just don't gain a lot by trying to be more precise or deliberate about your control with it. I feel it's better to pick the most automated way possible (that's comfortable for you) and then put that focus into something else, e.g., creep tumor spreading.
You're probably right. I like seeing the energy to plan my creep tumours and prepare transfusions if attacks are coming, but like you said thats a fringe situation. You would be better off having 10% faster injections and giving up this "luxury".
I guess I'm seeing the following situation: 3 Hatcheries, 3 Queens. The expansion is getting harassed by a Banshee. The "old" player would 66v 88v and then 77 and fight the banshee. But the person using this technique wouldn't inject anything until everything is completely clear.
Thats very hard to say. The better play would inject and then deal with the harass, as needed
On March 08 2011 00:44 Chill wrote: Here's an analogy:
Lots of people put all their Hatcheries on 5. Then they have Drones built from the main going to their third base and units from their third base rallying in backwards to their main base. If they controlled the Hatcheries individually, they would play a lot better. That's where I'm coming from.
Of course in late game when injects are just a chore that mechanically has to be done, this technique would be very appropriate.
This is just something for people to learn and improve on, it dosent make this a bad method.
If anything it allows you to inject faster, in larger quantities at once, saving time.
Yes, of course. I'd like to test it more before I comment again. I'll try it as soon as I have time because I find I'm very, very bad at the mindless injects that happen through the midgame.
I guess another question I have: Does enabling the "follow current selection" option have any other side effects that the average person should worry about?
On March 08 2011 00:44 Chill wrote: Here's an analogy:
Lots of people put all their Hatcheries on 5. Then they have Drones built from the main going to their third base and units from their third base rallying in backwards to their main base. If they controlled the Hatcheries individually, they would play a lot better. That's where I'm coming from.
Of course in late game when injects are just a chore that mechanically has to be done, this technique would be very appropriate.
This is the sticking point for me.
In an 8 minute game, I won't use backspace injects at all. Its just not necessary.
In a 25 minute macro game, when it's crucial that injections happen while armies are being microd, little tricks like this really shine.
I don't think you're wrong at all in saying that having more control, or tighter control is a good thing, but there are also times in the game when speed is much more important than precision. Something like this makes those moments that much more manageable.
It's a far cry from BW precision, but that doesn't mean we should limit ourselves by not taking advantage of the tools given to us.
It will follow the next selection if you haven't paned away.
In the case its doing that in your play, with my new method's set up i have follow current selection set to Q as a alternate hot key, to turn of whenever i need to.
On March 08 2011 00:44 Chill wrote: Here's an analogy:
Lots of people put all their Hatcheries on 5. Then they have Drones built from the main going to their third base and units from their third base rallying in backwards to their main base. If they controlled the Hatcheries individually, they would play a lot better. That's where I'm coming from.
Of course in late game when injects are just a chore that mechanically has to be done, this technique would be very appropriate.
This is the sticking point for me.
In an 8 minute game, I won't use backspace injects at all. Its just not necessary.
In a 25 minute macro game, when it's crucial that injections happen while armies are being microd, little tricks like this really shine.
I don't think you're wrong at all in saying that having more control, or tighter control is a good thing, but there are also times in the game when speed is much more important than precision. Something like this makes those moments that much more manageable.
It's a far cry from BW precision, but that doesn't mean we should limit ourselves by not taking advantage of the tools given to us.
Very well put, I don't use this method until i get 3 or more hatcheries with queens, sometimes 4, but i still use the base camera early game.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. This obviously doesn't take it that far, but I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it before I post again, but I haven't had too many issues with just using 66 77 88 for my first three Queens.
My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors.
I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op
Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually.
It's hard for me to put it on paper.
This might crystallize what you're trying to get across better Chill. What do you think you gain from individually controlling queens over doing a semi-automated approach like this?
I used to argue that individual control lets you check energies more efficiently, lets you respond to drops better, etc., but I've found that queen injecting is one of those things that you just don't gain a lot by trying to be more precise or deliberate about your control with it. I feel it's better to pick the most automated way possible (that's comfortable for you) and then put that focus into something else, e.g., creep tumor spreading.
You're probably right. I like seeing the energy to plan my creep tumours and prepare transfusions if attacks are coming, but like you said thats a fringe situation. You would be better off having 10% faster injections and giving up this "luxury".
I guess I'm seeing the following situation: 3 Hatcheries, 3 Queens. The expansion is getting harassed by a Banshee. The "old" player would 66v 88v and then 77 and fight the banshee. But the person using this technique wouldn't inject anything until everything is completely clear.
That situation is very real. And I definitely fall into that trap at times when I panic and I don't individually grab and one-off hotkey the queens that need to defend vs. are free to inject. It's basically 1a syndrome for queen defense.
But yep, that's the fun part about discussing this. There's different trade-offs to each injection technique and different ways to patch them up. For example, in the early game you can hotkey your main and nat queens separately in addition to your uber-queen hotkey to get the best of both worlds.
I'm having 2 problems with this method so far: 1) Like some other people, I'm not liking the fact that when you shift between bases, there's that initial camera wobble where it shifts to the queen, it slows down the process quite considerably for me.
2) Unlike simply using backspace, the camera will often repeat back to bases that have already been injected before shifting to un-injected bases. I was just testing this on Xel-naga, and it would often shift to my nat, then to my main, then instead of then shifting to my next base, it shifts first back to the nat. Means you have to cycle more times.
Those two combined may be a deal breaker for me, gonna see if i get used to it though.
On March 08 2011 00:59 ChefStarCraft wrote: It will follow the next selection if you haven't paned away.
In the case its doing that in your play, with my new method's set up i have follow current selection set to Q as a alternate hot key, to turn of whenever i need to.
Oh wow, that's a huge issue to me... hmm. Guess I'll just add Q to the start and end of the cycle.
On March 08 2011 01:03 Floydian wrote: I'm having 2 problems with this method so far: 1) Like some other people, I'm not liking the fact that when you shift between bases, there's that initial camera wobble where it shifts to the queen, it slows down the process quite considerably for me.
2) Unlike simply using backspace, the camera will often repeat back to bases that have already been injected before shifting to un-injected bases. I was just testing this on Xel-naga, and it would often shift to my nat, then to my main, then instead of then shifting to my next base, it shifts first back to the nat. Means you have to cycle more times.
Those two combined may be a deal breaker for me, gonna see if i get used to it though.
Nice find though, kudos on discovering this!
The second problem only happens when theres not a queen close enough to the new hatchery. This is the whole purpose of the button not to miss click a hatchery with a queen not beside it.
This first problem is just getting used to the new method, you can always go back to the old one. It only slows it down because your used to spamming inject like most backspace injectors. Its not much slower, its more accurate because it stops the chance of queens running around.
On March 08 2011 01:03 Floydian wrote: I'm having 2 problems with this method so far: 1) Like some other people, I'm not liking the fact that when you shift between bases, there's that initial camera wobble where it shifts to the queen, it slows down the process quite considerably for me.
2) Unlike simply using backspace, the camera will often repeat back to bases that have already been injected before shifting to un-injected bases. I was just testing this on Xel-naga, and it would often shift to my nat, then to my main, then instead of then shifting to my next base, it shifts first back to the nat. Means you have to cycle more times.
Those two combined may be a deal breaker for me, gonna see if i get used to it though.
Nice find though, kudos on discovering this!
The second problem only happens when theres not a queen close enough to the new hatchery. This is the whole purpose of the button not to miss click a hatchery with a queen not beside it.
Actually no. It would shift to my nat where I would inject, then it would shift to my main, where I would inject, then instead of going to my next queen-ready base, it would shift back to my nat, only then would it shift to my next queen.
On March 08 2011 00:59 ChefStarCraft wrote: It will follow the next selection if you haven't paned away.
In the case its doing that in your play, with my new method's set up i have follow current selection set to Q as a alternate hot key, to turn of whenever i need to.
Oh wow, that's a huge issue to me... hmm. Guess I'll just add Q to the start and end of the cycle.
You don't even need to use it, just change shift + inject button to your follow current selection hotkey.
Q is just a nice button to help if its ever a problem.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. This obviously doesn't take it that far, but I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it before I post again, but I haven't had too many issues with just using 66 77 88 for my first three Queens.
My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors.
I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op
Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually.
It's hard for me to put it on paper.
This might crystallize what you're trying to get across better Chill. What do you think you gain from individually controlling queens over doing a semi-automated approach like this?
I used to argue that individual control lets you check energies more efficiently, lets you respond to drops better, etc., but I've found that queen injecting is one of those things that you just don't gain a lot by trying to be more precise or deliberate about your control with it. I feel it's better to pick the most automated way possible (that's comfortable for you) and then put that focus into something else, e.g., creep tumor spreading.
You're probably right. I like seeing the energy to plan my creep tumours and prepare transfusions if attacks are coming, but like you said thats a fringe situation. You would be better off having 10% faster injections and giving up this "luxury".
I guess I'm seeing the following situation: 3 Hatcheries, 3 Queens. The expansion is getting harassed by a Banshee. The "old" player would 66v 88v and then 77 and fight the banshee. But the person using this technique wouldn't inject anything until everything is completely clear.
it seems to me that you are just trying to make your point valid. Its not like you couldnt select the queen individuhally, you can also hotkey them differently but inject with the faster method. For Creeptumors you will need an extra queen anyway.
You could also say its better to ahve all queens hotkeyed togheter because you will be able to block of your chocke faster against hellions or banelings. But i dont think fighting off a banshee on 3 bases should be a reason to use a disadvantageous injection method- since normally banshees hit when zerg is on 2 base or you will have mutas/infestors to deal with banshees.
I used to have my queens indvidually hotkeyed for a long time and the backspace method is just the superior way to inject. Especially if you get like 3 or more hatches all with a queen - you are also able to inject 5 hatches instead of the limited amount you get because you just dont have more hotkeys. I have 3 hotkeys for army 1 hotkey for hatches 1 hotkey for queens 1 hotkey for my spire 1 hotkey for my evo chambers 1 for spreading creep and if i have overseers they are getting hotkeyed as well
On March 08 2011 01:03 Floydian wrote: I'm having 2 problems with this method so far: 1) Like some other people, I'm not liking the fact that when you shift between bases, there's that initial camera wobble where it shifts to the queen, it slows down the process quite considerably for me.
2) Unlike simply using backspace, the camera will often repeat back to bases that have already been injected before shifting to un-injected bases. I was just testing this on Xel-naga, and it would often shift to my nat, then to my main, then instead of then shifting to my next base, it shifts first back to the nat. Means you have to cycle more times.
Those two combined may be a deal breaker for me, gonna see if i get used to it though.
Nice find though, kudos on discovering this!
The second problem only happens when theres not a queen close enough to the new hatchery. This is the whole purpose of the button not to miss click a hatchery with a queen not beside it.
Actually no. It would shift to my nat where I would inject, then it would shift to my main, where I would inject, then instead of going to my next queen-ready base, it would shift back to my nat, only then would it shift to my next queen.
This hasn't become a problem for me using this. Sounds to me like your just hitting the base camera button to fast.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. This obviously doesn't take it that far, but I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it before I post again, but I haven't had too many issues with just using 66 77 88 for my first three Queens.
My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors.
I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op
Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually.
It's hard for me to put it on paper.
This might crystallize what you're trying to get across better Chill. What do you think you gain from individually controlling queens over doing a semi-automated approach like this?
I used to argue that individual control lets you check energies more efficiently, lets you respond to drops better, etc., but I've found that queen injecting is one of those things that you just don't gain a lot by trying to be more precise or deliberate about your control with it. I feel it's better to pick the most automated way possible (that's comfortable for you) and then put that focus into something else, e.g., creep tumor spreading.
You're probably right. I like seeing the energy to plan my creep tumours and prepare transfusions if attacks are coming, but like you said thats a fringe situation. You would be better off having 10% faster injections and giving up this "luxury".
I guess I'm seeing the following situation: 3 Hatcheries, 3 Queens. The expansion is getting harassed by a Banshee. The "old" player would 66v 88v and then 77 and fight the banshee. But the person using this technique wouldn't inject anything until everything is completely clear.
it seems to me that you are just trying to make your point valid. Its not like you couldnt select the queen individuhally, you can also hotkey them differently but inject with the faster method. For Creeptumors you will need an extra queen anyway.
You could also say its better to ahve all queens hotkeyed togheter because you will be able to block of your chocke faster against hellions or banelings. But i dont think fighting off a banshee on 3 bases should be a reason to use a disadvantageous injection method- since normally banshees hit when zerg is on 2 base or you will have mutas/infestors to deal with banshees.
I used to have my queens indvidually hotkeyed for a long time and the backspace method is just the superior way to inject. Especially if you get like 3 or more hatches all with a queen - you are also able to inject 5 hatches instead of the limited amount you get because you just dont have more hotkeys. I have 3 hotkeys for army 1 hotkey for hatches 1 hotkey for queens 1 hotkey for my spire 1 hotkey for my evo chambers 1 for spreading creep and if i have overseers they are getting hotkeyed as well
Being an expert in all methods is obviously ideal. That's the point I'm trying to make - there are situations you will not want to use this so don't rely on it too heavily. That's it.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. This obviously doesn't take it that far, but I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it before I post again, but I haven't had too many issues with just using 66 77 88 for my first three Queens.
My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors.
I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op
Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually.
It's hard for me to put it on paper.
This might crystallize what you're trying to get across better Chill. What do you think you gain from individually controlling queens over doing a semi-automated approach like this?
I used to argue that individual control lets you check energies more efficiently, lets you respond to drops better, etc., but I've found that queen injecting is one of those things that you just don't gain a lot by trying to be more precise or deliberate about your control with it. I feel it's better to pick the most automated way possible (that's comfortable for you) and then put that focus into something else, e.g., creep tumor spreading.
You're probably right. I like seeing the energy to plan my creep tumours and prepare transfusions if attacks are coming, but like you said thats a fringe situation. You would be better off having 10% faster injections and giving up this "luxury".
I guess I'm seeing the following situation: 3 Hatcheries, 3 Queens. The expansion is getting harassed by a Banshee. The "old" player would 66v 88v and then 77 and fight the banshee. But the person using this technique wouldn't inject anything until everything is completely clear.
it seems to me that you are just trying to make your point valid. Its not like you couldnt select the queen individuhally, you can also hotkey them differently but inject with the faster method. For Creeptumors you will need an extra queen anyway.
You could also say its better to ahve all queens hotkeyed togheter because you will be able to block of your chocke faster against hellions or banelings. But i dont think fighting off a banshee on 3 bases should be a reason to use a disadvantageous injection method- since normally banshees hit when zerg is on 2 base or you will have mutas/infestors to deal with banshees.
I used to have my queens indvidually hotkeyed for a long time and the backspace method is just the superior way to inject. Especially if you get like 3 or more hatches all with a queen - you are also able to inject 5 hatches instead of the limited amount you get because you just dont have more hotkeys. I have 3 hotkeys for army 1 hotkey for hatches 1 hotkey for queens 1 hotkey for my spire 1 hotkey for my evo chambers 1 for spreading creep and if i have overseers they are getting hotkeyed as well
Being an expert in all methods is obviously ideal. That's the point I'm trying to make - there are situations you will not want to use this so don't rely on it too heavily. That's it.
Exactly just use it when it carrys on to a heavy macro game.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. This obviously doesn't take it that far, but I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it before I post again, but I haven't had too many issues with just using 66 77 88 for my first three Queens.
My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors.
I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op
Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually.
It's hard for me to put it on paper.
This might crystallize what you're trying to get across better Chill. What do you think you gain from individually controlling queens over doing a semi-automated approach like this?
I used to argue that individual control lets you check energies more efficiently, lets you respond to drops better, etc., but I've found that queen injecting is one of those things that you just don't gain a lot by trying to be more precise or deliberate about your control with it. I feel it's better to pick the most automated way possible (that's comfortable for you) and then put that focus into something else, e.g., creep tumor spreading.
You're probably right. I like seeing the energy to plan my creep tumours and prepare transfusions if attacks are coming, but like you said thats a fringe situation. You would be better off having 10% faster injections and giving up this "luxury".
I guess I'm seeing the following situation: 3 Hatcheries, 3 Queens. The expansion is getting harassed by a Banshee. The "old" player would 66v 88v and then 77 and fight the banshee. But the person using this technique wouldn't inject anything until everything is completely clear.
it seems to me that you are just trying to make your point valid. Its not like you couldnt select the queen individuhally, you can also hotkey them differently but inject with the faster method. For Creeptumors you will need an extra queen anyway.
You could also say its better to ahve all queens hotkeyed togheter because you will be able to block of your chocke faster against hellions or banelings. But i dont think fighting off a banshee on 3 bases should be a reason to use a disadvantageous injection method- since normally banshees hit when zerg is on 2 base or you will have mutas/infestors to deal with banshees.
I used to have my queens indvidually hotkeyed for a long time and the backspace method is just the superior way to inject. Especially if you get like 3 or more hatches all with a queen - you are also able to inject 5 hatches instead of the limited amount you get because you just dont have more hotkeys. I have 3 hotkeys for army 1 hotkey for hatches 1 hotkey for queens 1 hotkey for my spire 1 hotkey for my evo chambers 1 for spreading creep and if i have overseers they are getting hotkeyed as well
Being an expert in all methods is obviously ideal. That's the point I'm trying to make - there are situations you will not want to use this so don't rely on it too heavily. That's it.
Exactly just use it when it carrys on to a heavy macro game.
Time and practice will be required to figure out when to shift from one method to another.... it'd be more appealing if one method fixed all but I'm still on the fence as to how reliable this can be in the heat of the moment.... I'd probably still stick to the 66v77v88v method for consistency
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. This obviously doesn't take it that far, but I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it before I post again, but I haven't had too many issues with just using 66 77 88 for my first three Queens.
My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors.
I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op
Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually.
It's hard for me to put it on paper.
This might crystallize what you're trying to get across better Chill. What do you think you gain from individually controlling queens over doing a semi-automated approach like this?
I used to argue that individual control lets you check energies more efficiently, lets you respond to drops better, etc., but I've found that queen injecting is one of those things that you just don't gain a lot by trying to be more precise or deliberate about your control with it. I feel it's better to pick the most automated way possible (that's comfortable for you) and then put that focus into something else, e.g., creep tumor spreading.
You're probably right. I like seeing the energy to plan my creep tumours and prepare transfusions if attacks are coming, but like you said thats a fringe situation. You would be better off having 10% faster injections and giving up this "luxury".
I guess I'm seeing the following situation: 3 Hatcheries, 3 Queens. The expansion is getting harassed by a Banshee. The "old" player would 66v 88v and then 77 and fight the banshee. But the person using this technique wouldn't inject anything until everything is completely clear.
it seems to me that you are just trying to make your point valid. Its not like you couldnt select the queen individuhally, you can also hotkey them differently but inject with the faster method. For Creeptumors you will need an extra queen anyway.
You could also say its better to ahve all queens hotkeyed togheter because you will be able to block of your chocke faster against hellions or banelings. But i dont think fighting off a banshee on 3 bases should be a reason to use a disadvantageous injection method- since normally banshees hit when zerg is on 2 base or you will have mutas/infestors to deal with banshees.
I used to have my queens indvidually hotkeyed for a long time and the backspace method is just the superior way to inject. Especially if you get like 3 or more hatches all with a queen - you are also able to inject 5 hatches instead of the limited amount you get because you just dont have more hotkeys. I have 3 hotkeys for army 1 hotkey for hatches 1 hotkey for queens 1 hotkey for my spire 1 hotkey for my evo chambers 1 for spreading creep and if i have overseers they are getting hotkeyed as well
Being an expert in all methods is obviously ideal. That's the point I'm trying to make - there are situations you will not want to use this so don't rely on it too heavily. That's it.
Exactly just use it when it carrys on to a heavy macro game.
Time and practice will be required to figure out when to shift from one method to another.... it'd be more appealing if one method fixed all but I'm still on the fence as to how reliable this can be in the heat of the moment.... I'd probably still stick to the 66v77v88v method for consistency
I will go to this method when i have 3 to 4 hatcheries with queens beside them, because its simply going to be faster at that time. Until then I use the base camera to fit all my needs for each hatchery.
On March 07 2011 17:59 darkmare wrote: its a real cool idea.
But since it was said on stream you won't be able to modify hotkeys on competitive LANs i really dunno. I ll refrain from hotkey changes like that even if i am never able to compete at one myself =D.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. This obviously doesn't take it that far, but I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it before I post again, but I haven't had too many issues with just using 66 77 88 for my first three Queens.
My actual thinking is not tunnel vision with this method, but rather the opposite. If we can do this in good time, we have time to do other things like lay creep tumors.
I insist on trying the new method with the follow current unit selection as shift + inject button. I also recommend my thread on creep spreading ideas, theres a link in my op
Well, my point is that if you do it individually you think to control the units individually. If you use this technique as a crutch you run through the entire action list as opposed to thinking about the units individually.
It's hard for me to put it on paper.
That's exactly why the "queen meltdown" happened in the first place, people would run through the normal backspace cycle and over the course of the game things would get moved around, queens weren't in the proper place and people would try to inject when a queen wasn't where it should be. This solves the problem caused by the original problem, not the original problem itself, which is people's mechanics/hotkey usage. Feels like a bandaid.
On March 07 2011 12:28 ChefStarCraft wrote: It works by pressing shift+inject button (don't hold shift), inject button, then hold shift, cycle using base camera and inject like normal.
This will activate it and make it so you don't even have to practice a new button in your cycles.
I believe you'd be better off pressing the inject button first, hold shift, inject button again, then cycle through bases. This way you don't have to let go of shift and repress it. Minor perhaps but it's the same result and mechanically easier to perform.
When you do it too fast, you still have queens wandering around When you do it too slow, you have to move your mouse to hit the individual hatches, because your screen will be placed at different positions, this is extremely dominant when the queens stand on different sides of the hatch (like one queen on the left at one hatch, at another hatch the queen stands on the right)
This is just as unreliable as the backspace method IMO. But there's a fix even easier then yours: Backspace inject and then press the stop or hold position button. But then again if your queens stand to far away from your hatch they don't inject
Nice method, I think I'll give it a try as I have pretty good injects already but was too lazy to take up this system and have to manage queens running everywhere all the time.
On March 08 2011 02:38 azzu wrote: Okay I have some problems with this:
When you do it too fast, you still have queens wandering around When you do it too slow, you have to move your mouse to hit the individual hatches, because your screen will be placed at different positions, this is extremely dominant when the queens stand on different sides of the hatch (like one queen on the left at one hatch, at another hatch the queen stands on the right)
This is just as unreliable as the backspace method IMO. But there's a fix even easier then yours: Backspace inject and then press the stop or hold position button. But then again if your queens stand to far away from your hatch they don't inject
I have to disagree, I Believe its more reliable.You just need to allow a very small delay to allow the screen to zone in on the queen. Its such a slight delay. And no i don't think this is a down side, making you go '"slower".
People are just picking at the problem, nothings good enough, I spent allot of time, thought, and ideas figuring this out. If your not going to allow the small delay its not what this method is. Just because you cant spam click like we all want too, dosent mean this is ineffective. Its not the same method, please get this straight.
If you don't like it for that reason, go ahead and use the backspace method without it, and risk queens running around. This is still a very fast way to inject all at once safely. You shouldn't be using this method until you have 3-4 hatcheries anyway.
The stoping of the queens is not as easy. Your still going to click on that hatch you have to be extra paranoid not to, so you can press stop, not to mention watch the mini map to see any queens running out of place.. You don't have to worry about anything with this method. Just because you need to look where you are clicking, dose not mean its a downside, your just comparing it to the original back space method. Let me say again, this is a different method, and more accurate for reasons i just stated, and isn't unreliable for those reasons, your just executing it incorrectly, you may press all the right buttons, but that dosent mean your doing it right.
On March 07 2011 12:28 ChefStarCraft wrote: It works by pressing shift+inject button (don't hold shift), inject button, then hold shift, cycle using base camera and inject like normal.
This will activate it and make it so you don't even have to practice a new button in your cycles.
I believe you'd be better off pressing the inject button first, hold shift, inject button again, then cycle through bases. This way you don't have to let go of shift and repress it. Minor perhaps but it's the same result and mechanically easier to perform.
WOW. That's great! I'll definitely have to spend the time breaking myself of the 5-5-v-click, 6-6-v-click, 7-7-v-click method, but I think this will help me a tonnnnnn! Thanks so much Chef.
I dont play as zerg so im kinda confused with everything.. I do exactly what you say but when I try to do it fast like Mr bitter, all my queens go from base to base running around..
Is this method superior enough for me to invest time to learn this method of larva inject? I read this thread and the backspace thread a few times and I still have no idea what it's talking about.
I'm still doing the old broodwar method of putting every hatchery on one hotkey and it's really not much trouble. Can I quickly change to whatever hatchery I like just as fast using hotkeying each hatchery individually?
On March 08 2011 12:33 T.O.P. wrote: Is this method superior enough for me to invest time to learn this method of larva inject? I read this thread and the backspace thread a few times and I still have no idea what it's talking about.
I'm still doing the old broodwar method of putting every hatchery on one hotkey and it's really not much trouble. Can I quickly change to whatever hatchery I like just as fast using hotkeying each hatchery individually?
The way i like to play is setting all my queens on one hotkey(e), and move around my bases with my backspace key (w). I move around with w even when I'm not injecting, to make drones, geysers, send drones to geysers, making a queen, shift+adding a queen to a control group. shift+adding a hatchery to a control group. even when i don't inject this is my main source of mobility.
If any hatchery at any point needs my attention i will mini map click it, and the shift+back mouse button the camera location, saving it for a brief moment, i will then reset it to creep spreading once the harass/attack/ scout ect. is dealt with.
It is ideal to do this whole method once you have 3-4 hatcheries at that point you will profit by doing them faster, shaving off seconds of your play at a time. Seconds can quickly add up to a minute, two minutes, ect.
With that small perk in mind, its always best to play with what your personal preference is, but that dosent make any other method wrong, or right.
Well I'd say that the amount of time you save by using this method over using individual hotkeys for hatcheries is minimal at best, but you do get the huge added benefit of freeing up several hotkeys for units. Do you really need all those hotkeys for units? Probably not. 7,8,9,0 for 4-bases gives you 1-6 for units. I highly doubt anybody can separately micro 6 control groups at a time.
This is actually slower than the regular backspace method because you have to push the toggle current selection hotkey before you begin, and you have to turn it off afterwards. The upside is that you will never have a queen derping across the map. Not sure if its worth it yet...
On March 08 2011 12:33 T.O.P. wrote: Is this method superior enough for me to invest time to learn this method of larva inject? I read this thread and the backspace thread a few times and I still have no idea what it's talking about.
I'm still doing the old broodwar method of putting every hatchery on one hotkey and it's really not much trouble. Can I quickly change to whatever hatchery I like just as fast using hotkeying each hatchery individually?
I dont understand how you can play a mid to late game efficiently with that setup. I also been using the individual hatcherys to one hotkey setup for along time since i came from BW but i just dont find it efficient in starcraft 2
On March 08 2011 13:48 Xanbatou wrote: This is actually slower than the regular backspace method because you have to push the toggle current selection hotkey before you begin, and you have to turn it off afterwards. The upside is that you will never have a queen derping across the map. Not sure if its worth it yet...
With the new method, it makes it so you don't even have to press the toggle, it will issue with buttons you we're going to press anyway, so its the same. I also have a back up alternate button to turn it off, if i need to. Its located near my control groups. Most of the time i don't need to turn it off because i will just pan away.
Hey great discovery! I tried it and it works great.
I did find one bug to it though (although it is pretty minor).
When I inject, I like to tap the backspace key to check hatch first and then inject. When I was playing a game, I tried the method and all of a sudden I was stuck on a screen. I realized on the replay this happens when two queens are together and hotkeyed. So if you have two queens hotkeyd along with other queens and they are close to each other, when you try to cycle with the follow toggle, it gets stuck on one hatchery.
However, when two queens are at a certain distance apart, it starts to work again.
Also, this could all be avoid if you just hold the backspace and hold shift + v. But if you are like me and like to check the base before inject, make sure you dont have the two queens hotkeyed and next to each other if using this method.
heres a crappy quality video i did.
I first do it regularly 3 queens 3 hatches, then with 4 queens 3 hatches with 2 queens next to each other (this messes up), then same situation holding backspace (which works), and then with the two queens with a certain distance apart which works.
On March 08 2011 15:08 apekzhrk wrote: Hey great discovery! I tried it and it works great.
I did find one bug to it though (although it is pretty minor).
When I inject, I like to tap the backspace key to check hatch first and then inject. When I was playing a game, I tried the method and all of a sudden I was stuck on a screen. I realized on the replay this happens when two queens are together and hotkeyed. So if you have two queens hotkeyd along with other queens and they are close to each other, when you try to cycle with the follow toggle, it gets stuck on one hatchery.
However, when two queens are at a certain distance apart, it starts to work again.
Also, this could all be avoid if you just hold the backspace and hold shift + v. But if you are like me and like to check the base before inject, make sure you dont have the two queens hotkeyed and next to each other if using this method.
I first do it regularly 3 queens 3 hatches, then with 4 queens 3 hatches with 2 queens next to each other (this messes up), then same situation holding backspace (which works), and then with the two queens with a certain distance apart which works.
Also, incineration zone.
This happens because this toggle behaves in a way that if you have a group of units all set to one control group, with follow current selection activated, it will instantly take priority to follow the units that are closer together. To fix this simply shift + click (deselect) one of those queens, and inject like normal.
I go over this toggles behavior in my baneling thread located at the bottom of my op.
This is not a bug, or anything. This is how this toggle behaves.
Yea it happened when toss started getting voidrays so i got 2 queens per hatch and it started happening. Idk, for some reason I like to look at my hatcheries while injecting. Holding backspace lets you inject whether or not queens are together but if I do that i can't look at my hatches ahhaah. If I wanna look at hatches after than, then I have to just use regular backspace to check each base after injection and that seems inconvenient to me.
But I think for most people, it's great because they can just hold backspace and boom its done. Doesn't matter if queens are next to each other which is good.
On March 08 2011 15:37 apekzhrk wrote: Yea it happened when toss started getting voidrays so i got 2 queens per hatch and it started happening. Idk, for some reason I like to look at my hatcheries while injecting. Holding backspace lets you inject whether or not queens are together but if I do that i can't look at my hatches ahhaah. If I wanna look at hatches after than, then I have to just use regular backspace to check each base after injection and that seems inconvenient to me.
But I think for most people, it's great because they can just hold backspace and boom its done. Doesn't matter if queens are next to each other which is good.
Thanks for info
np, I'm slowly learning more about this toggle with experiments and ideas. Its still a very fresh topic.
Thanks for sharing! I tried it yesterday. But I don't really like it, because the queen is centered instead of the hatch. So when you inject very fast it happens that you missed a hatch and don't inject. Edit even happens to MrBitter in his example video.
On March 07 2011 23:03 Eka wrote: Just wanted to tip others use follow cam and base cam on same key, just have one while shift is pressed.
Have follow cam on tilt (one next to 1), and base cam on shift + tilt. Makes is sooo easy to do since you will be holding down shift anyway to incect all the bases.
Queens -> V -> Tilt -> Shift down -> Tilt untill done -> Shift up
This will make it so its automatic, wow. This is awesome thankyou.
Ok I confirmed this, and added it to the edit.
I have it so follow unit selections activated with shift + inject hotkey,
It works by pressing inject button, shift+inject button, then hold shift, cycle using base camera and inject like normal. Its the exact same except you need to tap inject twice, once on its own, then tap shit+inject to toggle follow current selection, and still enable the shift command inject.
On March 08 2011 16:27 iNViCiOUZ wrote: Thanks for sharing! I tried it yesterday. But I don't really like it, because the queen is centered instead of the hatch. So when you inject very fast it happens that you missed a hatch and don't inject. Edit even happens to MrBitter in his example video.
It takes practice to get use to the new style, thats all. You have to allow the slightest delay to allow the camera to zone in a little on the queen. Its still new to everybody. Mistakes will occur, its still doing the backspace injects purpose, but canceling out the chance of having a queen miss clicked on a queenless hatchery. This delay is still at a spamable speed and is fast like the backspace method without this toggle. It just the matter of practicing the tempo of the clicks.
It sort of shines through that if the term "queen meltdown" doesn't mean anything to you, you haven't extensively tried hatch cycling and thus shouldn't really comment. Sweet find OP
Inspired by this thread I tried the backspace method for the first time (I'm slow to adapt). Ctrl+x now adds a unit (queen( to a special controlgroup, shift+x selects it, and shift + space is my alternate hotkey for backspace. By having everything require a shiftkey you get around the mild annoyance of having to use shift just for spawn larva. So now you can quickly tab shift(hold), x, v, space and then just click and press space a couple of times for all your hatcheries.
Backspace method still seems superior to this if you can be sure you won't get the 'queen meltdown', so might be worthwhile to start with learning that anyway.
On March 08 2011 17:33 Grumbels wrote: Inspired by this thread I tried the backspace method for the first time (I'm slow to adapt). Ctrl+x now adds a unit (queen( to a special controlgroup, shift+x selects it, and shift + space is my alternate hotkey for backspace. By having everything require a shiftkey you get around the mild annoyance of having to use shift just for spawn larva. So now you can quickly tab shift(hold), x, v, space and then just click and press space a couple of times for all your hatcheries.
Backspace method still seems superior to this if you can be sure you won't get the 'queen meltdown', so might be worthwhile to start with learning that anyway.
I don't understand this, its the same, just with a added feature to toggle the queens not the hatcheries. And with my newest edit you just have to tap spawn larva hotkey twice with your backspace injects, and do it as normal, with end result being more control over your queens.
Change follow current selection to shift+inject larva hotkey
On March 08 2011 17:57 Grumbels wrote: Well, the camera is always centered on the place you want to click on. I'm not saying it's better as a whole though.
no i mean, i don't understand why you think its superior. this fixes the problem that people had with it. and its still fast.
sounds really great! Will try this out right away. I switched to the base cam technique from 4,5,6 queens and slowly got to a state where i got really sloppy with it because it so often produced missrallyed queens. Resulting in me often manually going back to base to inject -.-.
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
quoted for wisdom. that being said, I remapped base camera to [~]. best remap around
I myself prefer it as w.
I use ` as control group 0, its another very close control group and its right beside 1 so its perfect, I really like putting harassing units on this key.
Thought maybe people may like this, its used allot in my play,
I have just recently changed center on current selection to Q, rather then having follow current selection as an alternate on Q so I can turn off follow current selection if i ever needed too. It will turn off the follow current selection toggle as well, and is very useful itself.
One scenario with center on current selections usefulness could be: Creating a control group with 3 infestors in it.
1. Shift clicking each infestor to different mineral lines by using the units icons.
2. Centering on one of them by pressing center on current selection.
3. By shift clicking the infestor you can deselect it from the group.
4. Pressing center on current selection again will instantly bring you to another infester across the map at a different mineral line.
My queens are still wandering off to inject other hatcheries. I select the Queens, press the "Follow unit selection"-hotkey, hold shift+V and then start clicking the "base camera"-hotkey while spamming left click. It's as if the "Follow unit selection"-command isn't reacting quickly enough between each click of the base "base camera"-key.
You actually gotta slow down while doing this, as there is a very brief window of time where you look at an un-Queened hatchery, during which you can accidently inject on it even when using this method.
It's still fookin awesome, tho, great find. Great - find! Just takes some getting used to, but it'll make lategame Zerg less irritating to play.
Nice find, I hate the way the camera doesn't center though, it likes to follow the queen slower than I like. I will just spam backspace+V+click and then spam the S button so they stop being dumb queens.
I wish there was a shock collar upgrade for the queens. This would bind them to a hatch forever allowing me to micro my battles without watching one tip toe across the screen and get into a race with one of my scouting overlords.
Either way, I'm just happy I finally have an internal clock of hearing the spitting motion and knowing the seconds until they are ready to spit again.
is it worth it when you have one less hatchery worth of larva because your can't manage your queen injects?
EDIT: lemme rephrase that... i think it's cool that you can do that, but it seems like when you wanna just inject + make units then go back to the battle, this method is way more time consuming since you have to toggle stuff
On March 07 2011 12:40 err wrote: Hot damn! Pack it up boys! Zerg can finally compete!
Bahahahaha
Seriously, though. You guys know you can just group queens to a hotkey, hit v, then click on your hatchery through the minimap? The closest one will inject and you don't even have to move your screen.
Did you really just tell Chill to refrain from commenting?
a red tag shouldn't mean that you can BM an idea just because you wanted slightly higher post count.
Mechanics are a very important thing in being a good player, analysing your own hotkey usage, and figuring out ways of making it more efficient has become pretty popular recently.. and for good reason.
any other poster would have been warn/temp banned for what is essentially flamebaiting/trolling Zerg players and suggesting that its an easy mechanic that requires no thought or planning to execute flawlessly.
It's not quite "are you serious" but lead by example you know..
this is exactly how i feel. larva inject is FUCKING hard. idra doesnt even stay 100% on top of them all the time, on top of this they are very unforgiving and time consuming. so making a comment suggesting that its easy just sounds very condescending and sounds like flamebaiting. i love ya chill, your a great caster and an awesome dude in the community, but seriously, untill you play zerg and stay 100% on your larva injects dont patronize us.
tried experimenting around with this for one entire hour but all i could say is nah.. im already used to the spawn larvae hotkey of v and so it totally irritates me to hell when i tried changing it to e and unnaturally try to spam. it works, but it just feels so unnatural for me. probably habit though..
On March 07 2011 12:40 err wrote: Hot damn! Pack it up boys! Zerg can finally compete!
Bahahahaha
Seriously, though. You guys know you can just group queens to a hotkey, hit v, then click on your hatchery through the minimap? The closest one will inject and you don't even have to move your screen.
Takes literally like 1 second...
That's even slower... you don't have to move your camera, but you have to click the freaking minimap
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
Why shouldn't they? The tools are provided by Blizzard, in the game's options, specifically for making tasks in the game easier to execute by creating more comfortable hotkey setups.
The onus is on you to share with us why players shouldn't be experimenting with the provided options to solve problems that occur while playing the game.
Let me give you something from Chill's perspective or at least mine from a BW stand point.
SC:BW although there was no larva inject or creep spread, the game became a legend because of the mechanics required to play the game. There was no multiple hatcheries binded to one key or 24 mutalisk on one hot key. when you wanted to spawn larva you had to click on each hatch and make a unit. There are a million other things i could tell you that made BW more difficult but i really don't want to inflame more of a SC2 vs BW. What im trying to get at is people need to practice mechanics and one of these mechanics is larva inject. Honestly people expect to much form Blizzard now, they want SC2 to be "user friendly" but really they may as well let the damn computers play for the players.
I guess this is where I'm coming from, although I didn't realize it until you guys wrote it.
I see people writing these programs to play sounds or write text to tell you when to inject and things like that. It often ends up being a crutch instead of just learning to play well. Obviously that can't be true of every technique, but looking at this quickly I would put it in the crutch list rather than solid technique list. Obviously a lot of people disagree given the feedback, that's fine, but my opinion isn't unfounded.
I guess I'm just worried people will get tunnel vision about injecting when there's a lot of other things to do as well. I'm worried people get locked into running this cycle. By doing the actions one-by-one you get a lot more versatility in controlling your individual units. Obviously that didn't come out in my one-line OP.
Anyways, I'll continue to try it more before I post again.
The reminders, sounds, and scripts are generally intended to improve mechanics and sense of internal time. To be sure, a good musician would have a leg up in picking up an RTS game and doing well. If someone is serious about getting good they will use every resource at their disposal to do so. The audio reminder i was using to train with (and I dont main race zerg) had incredible results. No matter how much was going on in the game I nailed my spits after removing the audio track. That type of learning actually works with so many skills in life, from riding a bicycle to developing rhythm. It should be celebrated when people come up with good ways to make the game easier to play.
Broodwar Superiority Complex! To those of you that suffer from this I have to say that harder is not always better. In fact its usually worse. There is more than enough room below the ceiling in SC2 for tactics, strats, and ideas that I think once more time passes all these tricks that save time are applied more regularly we'll see some crazy levels of multi-tasking. To me its way more impressive when a player is using good strategy and multi-tasking to win rather than winning because they are more equipped than their opponent with the mechanics needed to circumvent Broodwars horrible UI deficiencies.
On topic, the base camera type options are by far the fastest way to spit. I can vouch for that. Having said that I've never had a problem with my queens running all of the place so I must be missing why this is useful. I generally have a queen near each hatch, group them all, then cycle through my base cams and spam V while clicking the middle of the screen. This method can do any number bases in like less than two seconds. What is causing the need for the camera following?
On March 07 2011 13:11 Chill wrote: Is larva injecting this difficult that people are modifying hotkeys and coming up with complex systems to do it?
quoted for wisdom. that being said, I remapped base camera to [~]. best remap around
Hey I highly recommend trying the base camera on a thumb mouse button. I've found its nearly impossible to fuck it up using the thumb mouse button because you're alternating between left click, V, and thumb button. You can literally just center your mouse with your queens selected and spam the shit out of those buttons and every hatch will spit on before you know it. I just find its easier to do it consistently because your right hand is not used to alternating those motions so its damn near impossible to accidentally hit a button twice in a row and screw it up.
Problem I find with this method is if queens aren't all in the same location in relation to there hatchery. Otherwise its fine to use but normal main building camera switch is quite reliable if queens defended and stuff.
He's a revolutionary.... well done you're an icon to zergs everywhere. This injection method needs to get liquipedia'd fast under the name "The Roark/ChefStarCraft Method".
Edit; been trying this out, but i find that clicking the base cam button too fast causes the same problem as always, the field trip queen
I'm sorry I don't know if this has been posted already, but I'm getting inconsistent behavior with this when 2 or more queens are close together. For example, if you have a macro hatch with a dedicated queen very close to a "main" hatch, this will not inject one of them. Another problem I'm not sure I can reproduce reliably is, sometimes when I have more than one queen at one base, and one at each other, one of the bases will not get injected. (e.g. 1 queen at main, 2 at nat and 1 at 3rd, the base camera will not cycle through the main when the follow current selection is active).
Making sure that all your queens have about half a screen of space between them seems to solve these issues for me. You might want to add this to the OP.
On March 13 2011 15:55 CookieMaker wrote: He's a revolutionary.... well done you're an icon to zergs everywhere. This injection method needs to get liquipedia'd fast under the name "The Roark/ChefStarCraft Method".
Edit; been trying this out, but i find that clicking the base cam button too fast causes the same problem as always, the field trip queen
Another problem i have found. With this method, sometimes when you have 2queens very close together (because of macro hatch) the camera gets stuck at them so you can't inject any other hatches anymore.
Nice idea but there are too many problems to use this method reliably.
On March 14 2011 17:27 TehForce wrote: Another problem i have found. With this method, sometimes when you have 2queens very close together (because of macro hatch) the camera gets stuck at them so you can't inject any other hatches anymore.
Nice idea but there are too many problems to use this method reliably.
this is also what i noticed when using this method, is there a way around this problem?
This is an excellent idea and kudos to Chef and MrBitter, but watching the video, I started to get a headache from the bobbing around. As stated earlier, if the queens are positioned differently relative to the hatch, you have to move the mouse around to click on the hatch.
I like the original functionality of cycling through the actual bases, but adding an 'H' after the inject cycle. This not only stops a wandering queen in her tracks within a second or so, but it prevents queens from wandering off chasing harassing enemy units. If they are placed on hold position after each inject cycle, they will stay put. It's one keypress per cycle to prevent the "Meltdown", while still allowing the quicker original "Backspace" method, since the mouse doesn't have to be moved.
Ok so, I've been using my idea for a very long time. I have decided its best to activate the toggle only when its hectic. If your being harassed, if its late game, if queens we're picked off and If you just finished taking the whole map and can't have queens there in time.
The point I'm trying to make with this post is that this toggle is very useful for those situations where you can't just backspace inject for various reasons. This will allow you to perform a safer injection cycle
When I have a queen beside every hatch I will back space inject like normal. Its your choice to add this to your cycles as a kind of safety button, I have and its been working out great. Its saved my but more then once thats for sure.
You can't be left click happy. You can still spam, but you need to let it at least zone in on a queen before you click.
On March 14 2011 17:27 TehForce wrote: Another problem i have found. With this method, sometimes when you have 2queens very close together (because of macro hatch) the camera gets stuck at them so you can't inject any other hatches anymore.
Nice idea but there are too many problems to use this method reliably.
Earlier in the thread I had posted that this is solved by simply shift+deselecting one of those queens. This problem occurs because when having a toggle like follow current selection activated, the units in a single control group that are closer together will have a high priority to be followed. By shift clicking one of those queens you can then inject like normal.
Just involves more thought in building placements in situations like laying 2 hatcheries really close together and not positioning queens right. To avoid this build that hatch a little spaced out, as long as the queens aren't close together this isn't a problem.
On March 20 2011 12:38 Tschis wrote: Anyone else has a problem when you press "w" and the camera goes back to the same queen, or one that has already used inject?
//tx
You either: 1. Hit w to many times and skipped the hatchery. 2. The queen wasn't close enough to the hatchery or you din't have a queen assigned to the hatchery that was skipped.
If its the second reasons, this is the whole purpose of the toggle. Which is to keep queens from running to hatcheries without a queen beside it when injecting.
Heres a point I made and will put into the op:
I will double tap e and hold shit to use follow current selection. I only use it when its later in the games, if harass had taken a queen or if a new hatch was just put up and theres no queen. Mainly whenever its hectic and I need more focus on other matters.
I will inject normally by pressing e once and hold shift when its not hectic and I know i have a queen beside each hatchery. I view this as my safety button, it has saved my butt many times.
On March 20 2011 12:38 Tschis wrote: Anyone else has a problem when you press "w" and the camera goes back to the same queen, or one that has already used inject?
//tx
You either: 1. Hit w to many times and skipped the hatchery. 2. The queen wasn't close enough to the hatchery or you din't have a queen assigned to the hatchery that was skipped.
If its the second reasons, this is the whole purpose of the toggle. Which is to keep queens from running to hatcheries without a queen beside it when injecting.
Heres a point I made and will put into the op:
I will double tap e and hold shit to use follow current selection. I only use it when its later in the games, if harass had taken a queen or if a new hatch was just put up and theres no queen. Mainly whenever its hectic and I need more focus on other matters.
I will inject normally by pressing e once and hold shift when its not hectic and I know i have a queen beside each hatchery. I view this as my safety button, it has saved my butt many times.
Nope. Whenever I have more hatcheries than Queens, this happens. It's like it tries to go to the Hatchery with no Queen, and then it bounces back to the closes Queen, and that might have been a Queen that already injected larva.
This is bound to happen eventually if someone kills one of my Queens. So this might be some trouble this method has.
I use Base camera since I could (patch with hotkeys) and it is awesome. I am not Zerg primarily, but I think it would be useful for everybody. This usage of it seems the best although.
On March 20 2011 12:38 Tschis wrote: Anyone else has a problem when you press "w" and the camera goes back to the same queen, or one that has already used inject?
//tx
You either: 1. Hit w to many times and skipped the hatchery. 2. The queen wasn't close enough to the hatchery or you din't have a queen assigned to the hatchery that was skipped.
If its the second reasons, this is the whole purpose of the toggle. Which is to keep queens from running to hatcheries without a queen beside it when injecting.
Heres a point I made and will put into the op:
I will double tap e and hold shit to use follow current selection. I only use it when its later in the games, if harass had taken a queen or if a new hatch was just put up and theres no queen. Mainly whenever its hectic and I need more focus on other matters.
I will inject normally by pressing e once and hold shift when its not hectic and I know i have a queen beside each hatchery. I view this as my safety button, it has saved my butt many times.
Nope. Whenever I have more hatcheries than Queens, this happens. It's like it tries to go to the Hatchery with no Queen, and then it bounces back to the closes Queen, and that might have been a Queen that already injected larva.
This is bound to happen eventually if someone kills one of my Queens. So this might be some trouble this method has.
//tx
That is precisely what I was trying to explain. If you don't have a queen beside a hatch it will skip it. It pulls the base camera to the queens in your selection, acting as a super base camera.
You can still complete a full cycle of injects, you will just skip the hatchery that has no queen beside it. Which is the whole point, so I can't really see this as a problem.
If it has jumped back to a queen that has already injected then you have completed the whole cycle. If you haven't completely fished doing the cycle and the camera keeps getting stuck on a queen there is probably another queen close by that is also in that control group. If 2 queens are in the same screen and really close to each other (close to side by side) then the base camera will have a higher priority to follow those queens, locking the camera.
On March 20 2011 12:38 Tschis wrote: Anyone else has a problem when you press "w" and the camera goes back to the same queen, or one that has already used inject?
//tx
You either: 1. Hit w to many times and skipped the hatchery. 2. The queen wasn't close enough to the hatchery or you din't have a queen assigned to the hatchery that was skipped.
If its the second reasons, this is the whole purpose of the toggle. Which is to keep queens from running to hatcheries without a queen beside it when injecting.
Heres a point I made and will put into the op:
I will double tap e and hold shit to use follow current selection. I only use it when its later in the games, if harass had taken a queen or if a new hatch was just put up and theres no queen. Mainly whenever its hectic and I need more focus on other matters.
I will inject normally by pressing e once and hold shift when its not hectic and I know i have a queen beside each hatchery. I view this as my safety button, it has saved my butt many times.
Nope. Whenever I have more hatcheries than Queens, this happens. It's like it tries to go to the Hatchery with no Queen, and then it bounces back to the closes Queen, and that might have been a Queen that already injected larva.
This is bound to happen eventually if someone kills one of my Queens. So this might be some trouble this method has.
//tx
That is precisely what I was trying to explain. If you don't have a queen beside a hatch it will skip it. It pulls the base camera to the queens in your selection, acting as a super base camera.
You can still complete a full cycle of injects, you will just skip the hatchery that has no queen beside it. Which is the whole point, so I can't really see this as a problem.
If it has jumped back to a queen that has already injected then you have completed the whole cycle. If you haven't completely fished doing the cycle and the camera keeps getting stuck on a queen there is probably another queen close by that is also in that control group. If 2 queens are in the same screen and really close to each other (close to side by side) then the base camera will have a higher priority to follow those queens, locking the camera.
If I inject on the first hatch, and the second doesn't have a Queen, and the third has, sometimes it pops back to the first Queen instead of going to the Third base, so I haven't finished the whole cycle, but it brought me back to an injected base. It's better than having a queen walking around, but it's not good either.
On March 20 2011 12:38 Tschis wrote: Anyone else has a problem when you press "w" and the camera goes back to the same queen, or one that has already used inject?
//tx
You either: 1. Hit w to many times and skipped the hatchery. 2. The queen wasn't close enough to the hatchery or you din't have a queen assigned to the hatchery that was skipped.
If its the second reasons, this is the whole purpose of the toggle. Which is to keep queens from running to hatcheries without a queen beside it when injecting.
Heres a point I made and will put into the op:
I will double tap e and hold shit to use follow current selection. I only use it when its later in the games, if harass had taken a queen or if a new hatch was just put up and theres no queen. Mainly whenever its hectic and I need more focus on other matters.
I will inject normally by pressing e once and hold shift when its not hectic and I know i have a queen beside each hatchery. I view this as my safety button, it has saved my butt many times.
Nope. Whenever I have more hatcheries than Queens, this happens. It's like it tries to go to the Hatchery with no Queen, and then it bounces back to the closes Queen, and that might have been a Queen that already injected larva.
This is bound to happen eventually if someone kills one of my Queens. So this might be some trouble this method has.
//tx
That is precisely what I was trying to explain. If you don't have a queen beside a hatch it will skip it. It pulls the base camera to the queens in your selection, acting as a super base camera.
You can still complete a full cycle of injects, you will just skip the hatchery that has no queen beside it. Which is the whole point, so I can't really see this as a problem.
If it has jumped back to a queen that has already injected then you have completed the whole cycle. If you haven't completely fished doing the cycle and the camera keeps getting stuck on a queen there is probably another queen close by that is also in that control group. If 2 queens are in the same screen and really close to each other (close to side by side) then the base camera will have a higher priority to follow those queens, locking the camera.
If I inject on the first hatch, and the second doesn't have a Queen, and the third has, sometimes it pops back to the first Queen instead of going to the Third base, so I haven't finished the whole cycle, but it brought me back to an injected base. It's better than having a queen walking around, but it's not good either.
//tx
This can be due to the cycle of the hatcheries with the base camera. My insight on it is that the base camera will cycle the hatcheries in order you created them. The hatchery that is being skipped and causing the camera to appear on a already visited queen is because its forcing the base camera to cycle between 2 different hatcheries that are closer to that queen in the selection. If the hatcheries are spaced out right this wont happen, (this can be hard to avoid in certain maps so I don't advise it). This is the only small set back that I can confirm is true.
I agree it's far better then having the queens running around. I don't recommend injecting like this every single inject. Just when its turned into a heavy macro game or you need to focus on other matters. For example: if you know there is a alert at a hatchery and you prefer not to risk a queen meltdown.
I would love to see what a player like IdrA's opinion would be on this...since practically speaking they would have the most experience with top-level strategical and mechanical play. Especially IdrA since he is considered one of the best macro players in the world.
On March 21 2011 12:30 Eruaphadion wrote: I would love to see what a player like IdrA's opinion would be on this...since practically speaking they would have the most experience with top-level strategical and mechanical play. Especially IdrA since he is considered one of the best macro players in the world.
From what i have read most if not all top players don't mess with changing hotkeys.
You can't change hotkeys in some tournaments. I'm not 100% on this but I have come across hearing this more then once.
hmm i try to do this method but for some reason when i press w (base camera) after pressing center unit camera (shift+e) it cancels the effect and just toggles all hatcheries even ones w/o queens near them any1 else gettin this prob. ? If so have a fix? tanx
On March 23 2011 05:24 ryryry wrote: hmm i try to do this method but for some reason when i press w (base camera) after pressing center unit camera (shift+e) it cancels the effect and just toggles all hatcheries even ones w/o queens near them any1 else gettin this prob. ? If so have a fix? tanx
I'm not to sure I'f I understand your problem. From what I read your using center on current selection, you should be using follow current selection.
Center on current selection will cancel follow current selections toggle.
On March 21 2011 12:30 Eruaphadion wrote: I would love to see what a player like IdrA's opinion would be on this...since practically speaking they would have the most experience with top-level strategical and mechanical play. Especially IdrA since he is considered one of the best macro players in the world.
From what i have read most if not all top players don't mess with changing hotkeys.
You can't change hotkeys in some tournaments. I'm not 100% on this but I have come across hearing this more then once.
Which tournaments? How would they check if you had switched?
I have been using this method to great success in patch 1.2.1. But now that 1.3 is out, for some reason the Follow Current Selection feature is not working.....I've changed nothing but the base camera is overriding the follow current selection option. Anyone else getting problems?
Edit:
I think i can pretty much confirm that Follow Current Unit Selection does WORK BUT it does not override the base command anymore!!! ARGH!
On March 23 2011 12:34 Golgotha wrote: I have been using this method to great success in patch 1.2.1. But now that 1.3 is out, for some reason the Follow Current Selection feature is not working.....I've changed nothing but the base camera is overriding the follow current selection option. Anyone else getting problems?
Edit:
I think i can pretty much confirm that Follow Current Unit Selection does WORK BUT it does not override the base command anymore!!! ARGH!
It was fun while it lasted chef.
I just tested it, and yeah the new patch patched it up.
Currently the best way to stop queens from running around is now pressing s after injecting.
pressing s or h has the problem that cycle 1 they start walking to the other side of the map and then stop, cycle 2 they start walking back to their hatch and stop before reaching it. All this without injecting anything.
I think the only way is manually checking what you inject
On March 24 2011 11:08 dementrio wrote: pressing s or h has the problem that cycle 1 they start walking to the other side of the map and then stop, cycle 2 they start walking back to their hatch and stop before reaching it. All this without injecting anything.
I think the only way is manually checking what you inject
stopping dose work if you catch it right away.
So I'm not sure what your getting at.
But manually checking before you inject goes without saying.
if the first hatch in the cycle is one without a queen, at least one of the queens will start walking around. if you press stop after you do the injection cycle, that queen will have traveled a bit (and not injected anything) since she was the first one to which a move command was issued. in the next cycle, she will start walking back towards her hatchery, but since the cycle should take the same time as before, the stop command will time just a split second before she injects. After a while of doing this none of the queens is actually injecting.
On March 21 2011 12:30 Eruaphadion wrote: I would love to see what a player like IdrA's opinion would be on this...since practically speaking they would have the most experience with top-level strategical and mechanical play. Especially IdrA since he is considered one of the best macro players in the world.
Idra has said (on sotg iirc) that he doesn't use this method. He has his queens individually hotkeyed so he can see the energy of each of his queens by cycling through the hotkeys. That way, he can keep his queens at low energy even with staggered injection times.
actually one way of dealing with this would be to remap one of the fixed camera hotkeys (f5-f8) to what was follow current selection, bind that to your main or one hatch that will always have a queen, and go through the same key presses as before and add stop at the end. gonna try this now.
edit: doesn't work, because unless the queenless hatches are the last ones in the cycle, queens will start walking instead of injecting their hatch and basically stop injecting until you babysit them. and this defeats the whole purpose of this method so you might as well use the minimap or individual hotkeys or w/e. sadface
After testing a ton of different combinations, I want to share the setup that works best for me (now that the follow-selection trick doesn't work):
I've remapped the fixed camera hotkes (default F5-f8) to ALT+1-5. I set those so that my hatches are centered in the screen. My queen hotkey is 4.
Now I've made a habit of periodically tapping: 4 V SHIFT+ALT+1. This brings the camera back in my main, with queens selected and ready to inject. If the hatchery needs injecting, I click and tap 2-5 while holding down shift and alt. this injects all the hatcheries at almost the same speed of the backspace method, and as long as you take care of setting up the camera locations when you get your queens/hatches, there's no running around.
I think it is definitely an easier method to inject but I prefer using "4" for my hatcheries so I can select all the larva and set rally points easier and then I use 5-9 for my individual hatcheries so I can just tap them and select the queen and inject. This method actually will hurt you I feel if you lose queens or you want to get use to microing queens against harassment etc. Not to mention on your stream I notice you miss your injections constantly even with this easy ass method. So I think it can make you forget about injecting just because of how simple it makes it, I like being able to select a hatchery individually as well and fix a rally point quickly If I need to re rally units from a base across the map. But I know it is all just personal preference so maybe I will give it a try.
After testing a ton of different combinations, I want to share the setup that works best for me (now that the follow-selection trick doesn't work):
I've remapped the fixed camera hotkes (default F5-f8) to ALT+1-5. I set those so that my hatches are centered in the screen. My queen hotkey is 4.
Now I've made a habit of periodically tapping: 4 V SHIFT+ALT+1. This brings the camera back in my main, with queens selected and ready to inject. If the hatchery needs injecting, I click and tap 2-5 while holding down shift and alt. this injects all the hatcheries at almost the same speed of the backspace method, and as long as you take care of setting up the camera locations when you get your queens/hatches, there's no running around.
Huge thanks for this, it solved all my problems! In addition to it, I´ve not set my hotkey for "Center current selection" to ALT+W, so I can select a hatch and press ALT+W before CTRL+ALT+W (hotkey for set camera hotkey), which minimizes the effect of misclicking a hatch when cycling through them.
Another little tool I find quite useful is to change the hotkeys for control group "0" which is almost never used to grave (or whatever that button left to "1" at the edge of our keyboards), and at the start of every game I bind my main hatch (and no other hatches later on) to it, so I can always tap it to see the progress bar, helping me to get the injections timed correctly and not only fast in execution.
On March 30 2011 11:47 dementrio wrote: After testing a ton of different combinations, I want to share the setup that works best for me (now that the follow-selection trick doesn't work):
I've remapped the fixed camera hotkes (default F5-f8) to ALT+1-5. I set those so that my hatches are centered in the screen. My queen hotkey is 4.
Now I've made a habit of periodically tapping: 4 V SHIFT+ALT+1. This brings the camera back in my main, with queens selected and ready to inject. If the hatchery needs injecting, I click and tap 2-5 while holding down shift and alt. this injects all the hatcheries at almost the same speed of the backspace method, and as long as you take care of setting up the camera locations when you get your queens/hatches, there's no running around.
In my play I really can't see this being any different. This is just achieving the same method as base camera with just pressing more buttons and taking the time to assign hotkeys.
The main problem with the back space method is when something has killed your queen. This camera location idea will put you in the same spot with queens running around.
It does solve the queens running around if a new hatch just has popped and you haven't made a queen yet, but thats not a big enough reason for me to start using it this way. Imo the time to make the hotkeys and manage them inst worth the effort compared to the backspace method.
When injecting with the base camera the newest hatch created will be the last hatchery to be centered on. Thats all i need to know.
On March 30 2011 11:47 dementrio wrote: After testing a ton of different combinations, I want to share the setup that works best for me (now that the follow-selection trick doesn't work):
I've remapped the fixed camera hotkes (default F5-f8) to ALT+1-5. I set those so that my hatches are centered in the screen. My queen hotkey is 4.
Now I've made a habit of periodically tapping: 4 V SHIFT+ALT+1. This brings the camera back in my main, with queens selected and ready to inject. If the hatchery needs injecting, I click and tap 2-5 while holding down shift and alt. this injects all the hatcheries at almost the same speed of the backspace method, and as long as you take care of setting up the camera locations when you get your queens/hatches, there's no running around.
nice! will go try it out and test. Been doing something similar and kicking ass!
On March 30 2011 11:47 dementrio wrote: After testing a ton of different combinations, I want to share the setup that works best for me (now that the follow-selection trick doesn't work):
I've remapped the fixed camera hotkes (default F5-f8) to ALT+1-5. I set those so that my hatches are centered in the screen. My queen hotkey is 4.
Now I've made a habit of periodically tapping: 4 V SHIFT+ALT+1. This brings the camera back in my main, with queens selected and ready to inject. If the hatchery needs injecting, I click and tap 2-5 while holding down shift and alt. this injects all the hatcheries at almost the same speed of the backspace method, and as long as you take care of setting up the camera locations when you get your queens/hatches, there's no running around.
omg this works perfectly!!!!!! holy christ. dude make a new thread with this method. I am going to make a video right now to show how fast this method is. I kinda do it differently but same idea with camera locations. Very easy and very fast. I love this method more because you will never have a run away queen like the backspace method.
In my play I really can't see this being any different. This is just achieving the same method as base camera with just pressing more buttons and taking the time to assign hotkeys.
The main problem with the back space method is when something has killed your queen. This camera location idea will put you in the same spot with queens running around.
It does solve the queens running around if a new hatch just has popped and you haven't made a queen yet, but thats not a big enough reason for me to start using it this way. Imo the time to make the hotkeys and manage them inst worth the effort compared to the backspace method.
When injecting with the base camera the newest hatch created will be the last hatchery to be centered on. Thats all i need to know.
Alas it just is not consistent enough for me, and I always have the meltdown problem when I have 1 queenless hatch. You should consider also that if you stay on top of your injections you should not need more than 3-4 queens lategame, whereas it's common to have 6+ hatcheries past a certain point (because you should not have more than 3-4 mining bases, having 6 queens is a waste).
I think the effort and exta clicks that my method requires are comparable to checking whether the hatch you are clicking has a queen. Also it's easy to associate mentally each hatchery with a number, so if one queen gets killed you can easily skip that number for a couple cycles until your new queen spawns, and you can use the camera hotkeys for other means as well (e.g. I keep my tech in my main, so I can tap alt+1 to check progress on my evolution chambers etc). It's basically like using an individual hotkey for each queen without the discomfort of using the 7-9 hotkeys.
Glad to see other people have found it helpful and looking forward to the video!
I first show 5 bases that have not been injected. Then I move to my first base and select my queens and start injecting. When I am done I cycle through the 5 bases to show that they have been injected. It might seem like I am skipping a base because you cannot clearly see me moving through each one, but this is not due to the low quality of the video. Okay, maybe a little. But I assure you that it is that fast and I actually don't even have to look at my screen after I make that first inject.
In my play I really can't see this being any different. This is just achieving the same method as base camera with just pressing more buttons and taking the time to assign hotkeys.
The main problem with the back space method is when something has killed your queen. This camera location idea will put you in the same spot with queens running around.
It does solve the queens running around if a new hatch just has popped and you haven't made a queen yet, but thats not a big enough reason for me to start using it this way. Imo the time to make the hotkeys and manage them inst worth the effort compared to the backspace method.
When injecting with the base camera the newest hatch created will be the last hatchery to be centered on. Thats all i need to know.
Alas it just is not consistent enough for me, and I always have the meltdown problem when I have 1 queenless hatch. You should consider also that if you stay on top of your injections you should not need more than 3-4 queens lategame, whereas it's common to have 6+ hatcheries past a certain point (because you should not have more than 3-4 mining bases, having 6 queens is a waste).
I think the effort and exta clicks that my method requires are comparable to checking whether the hatch you are clicking has a queen. Also it's easy to associate mentally each hatchery with a number, so if one queen gets killed you can easily skip that number for a couple cycles until your new queen spawns, and you can use the camera hotkeys for other means as well (e.g. I keep my tech in my main, so I can tap alt+1 to check progress on my evolution chambers etc). It's basically like using an individual hotkey for each queen without the discomfort of using the 7-9 hotkeys.
Glad to see other people have found it helpful and looking forward to the video!
Its a nice idea don't get me wrong. I just don't like it because it takes allot more time to set up then it would of if i pressed s after a cycle.
I will be giving this allot more time and thought though. A big thing that I think will help is instead of using SHIFT+ALT+1-5 to Jump To Location, SHIFT+Q-Y assigned to this will perform the same thing. Without pressing ALT and disturbing the shift commands with control groups.
A small idea is to change your control group hotkey for queens to Q then have Inject larva changed to W and the Jump to location keys changed to E-Y Doing this with Q as inject and a number as the queen control group is a thought too. (I will be doing this but with W still as base camera to make the locations faster.))
jump to location is alt+1-5. Shift is held to press V only once. For a while I tried using QWERTY/ASDF for the camera hotkeys, but I found that it's mnemonically easier to use the numbers. The setup time is just setting the camera location once for each hatchery, it's maybe 10 seconds total in the course of a game. Try it and I think you'll find checking for the queen is more maintenance
On April 05 2011 18:08 dementrio wrote: jump to location is alt+1-5. Shift is hold to press V only once. For a while I tried using QWERTY/ASDF for the camera hotkeys, but I found that it's easier mnemonically to use the numbers. The setup time is just setting the camera location once for each hatchery, it's maybe 10 seconds total in the course of a game. Try it and I think you'll find checking for the queen is more maintenance
V for Inject
I hear you bro but you don't understand what I'm saying.
Your pressing Alt for no reason. The Shift command with the injections is already being pressed.
Why would you assign the jump to locations keys as ALT, when your already going to be pressing SHIFT ?
Its achieving the same thing without pressing a extra button.
The Alt Is only used so you don't disturb the control groups behavior. (This can be changed).
On April 05 2011 18:18 jinorazi wrote: i think i'm getting too old -,.-
55v66v is good enough for me. i just make extra hatch to compensate for lack of perfect injects.
i dont think this is game deciding factor but i guess its about saving all the weight possible for 1/10 of a second off the lap time.
i hope more different tricks will come up in the future
aww please do not say you are old. It is very simple in actuality. It is just difficult for people to understand the power of this idea because it is very different and new.
To be honest I kinda hate this method because it makes the game so damn easy. I would always be using 66, 55, 44 to inject but now I have too much free time to dance my zerglings.
Did the video not clearly show the speed? Hmmm I need a better computer...
golgotha, we are using very similar methods except I didnt want to mess with the add to control group hotkeys because I use them a lot. Also to chefstarcraft, my concern with using shift+x is that I'm afraid it may mess up things, e.g. if I use shift+QWERTY for my locations, will my queens queue up a burrow when i hit shift+R? or will I unable to queue up burrow with other units? although there may be enough keys not assigned to unit abilities on the left side of the keyboard, will check that out.
hey does it not seem fast in the video? hmmm well i thought it was good. u gave me the idea to use all queens on one hotkey. initially i was doing standard injections with multiple camera locations. you sped me up quite a bit. a second perhaps (which is a lot).
On April 05 2011 18:30 dementrio wrote: golgotha, we are using very similar methods except I didnt want to mess with the add to control group hotkeys because I use them a lot. Also to chefstarcraft, my concern with using shift+x is that I'm afraid it may mess up things, e.g. if I use shift+QWERTY for my locations, will my queens queue up a burrow when i hit shift+R? or will I unable to queue up burrow with other units? although there may be enough keys not assigned to unit abilities on the left side of the keyboard, will check that out.
You can change the burrow hotkeys, Anything assigned to keys that are jump to camera location keys may inter-fear with shift commands. When using Shit+qwerty or any letter, you would be changing everything that inter-fears.
I also have conflict because I like the shift+1-0 as add to control group. This was my solution.
it is fast, as I said its almost as fast as the backspace method and when you don't have to check and see if there is a queen it's faster imo. From the video it seemed you had found a revolutionary way to use 6+ camera hotkeys, but it turns out we are using very similar setups and you gain an edge with some clever tricks ^^. Thanks for the tips and happy injecting!
On April 05 2011 18:44 dementrio wrote: it is fast, as I said its almost as fast as the backspace method and when you don't have to check and see if there is a queen it's faster imo. From the video it seemed you had found a revolutionary way to use 6+ camera hotkeys, but it turns out we are using very similar setups and you gain an edge with some clever tricks ^^. Thanks for the tips and happy injecting!
I like the camera hotkeys! I just set mine up in unit tester to get the feel for it. What I came up with was setting my create location to crtl + F1-F8 and the recall location simply f1-f8 then I reset select idle worker to f9 and changed inject larva from V to ` I set all of my hatchs to 4 and all of my queens to 5 so now I just press 5 (to select all queens) then f1 ` click hatch f2 ` click hatch ect. I like it a lot more than individually binding queens to 6 7 8 and double tapping 6 7 8 to move around the map and inject. Also being able to hotkey the enemy base with the camera hotkeys is nice that or the xelnaga towers makes scouting and moving so much faster :D
On April 06 2011 03:01 SC2-Dethklok wrote: I like the camera hotkeys! I just set mine up in unit tester to get the feel for it. What I came up with was setting my create location to crtl + F1-F8 and the recall location simply f1-f8 then I reset select idle worker to f9 and changed inject larva from V to ` I set all of my hatchs to 4 and all of my queens to 5 so now I just press 5 (to select all queens) then f1 ` click hatch f2 ` click hatch ect. I like it a lot more than individually binding queens to 6 7 8 and double tapping 6 7 8 to move around the map and inject. Also being able to hotkey the enemy base with the camera hotkeys is nice that or the xelnaga towers makes scouting and moving so much faster :D
good man. finally someone who understands the advantage of using camera locs.
I have been using qwerty for awhile now, and I like it quite a bit. W Is still base camera and E is still inject. I will tap 4(all queens) e+shift(not shift+e), I will then hold shift and press q-y( hatchery camera) and inject. This works great, I have even added a few extra camera locations so I can save them for creep spreading.
I decided to keep W because it made it that much easier and faster to create the camera locations.
Q Is center on current selection still. I will be experimenting with new creep spreading ideas that branch off from this camera q-y idea. You will be able to press all these buttons in a row to inject and spread creep. As one cycle.
This has its pros too, you can manually go to each hatch instead of waiting for it in the cycle. It will take some time to get used to this new style, but I think its pretty damn good.
I may change it so Alt+Shift+Q-Y are another set of camera hotkeys to Jump to creep locations.
While I still have Shift+Q-Y to jump to hatchery locations.
Edit: I have decided to keep using my mouse to spread creep with camera locations. There just aren't enough locations. The mouse is far easier to rinse and repeat locations for creep.
I use the camera locations for creep that have yet to be assigned. I have up to 6 letters as camera locations with 2 on my mouse. (Switching to this method has greatly improved my creep spread because I already spread with camera locations.(This helped me focus on it even more))
I changed D to a alternate for spreading creep tumors, on the queen as well. I also changed select larva as a alternate to D for when i feel drone happy :D Idle Worker is my scroll button on my mouse.
it hasnt been patched I was doing it yesterday. You cant hold V for inject while pressing the camera location hot keys that wont work but if you select all of your queens and then press one of your camera location keys your camera will jump to that location and your queens will still be selected. So what you do is press the hot key for all of your queens then press the camera location you want to go to then V for inject and click the hatch then press your next camera location key followed by V and click hatch your queens will be selected the whole time your using your camera keys to move around the map. This method eliminates 1 button press over hot keying individual hatcheries or individual queens.
I've been using the backspace method simply because I'm too lazy to hotkey each queen seperately. Seems that the seperate queen hotkey is the most commonly used method by pro zergs I've watched. Takes a bit more control but better in the long run.
On April 07 2011 00:29 SC2-Dethklok wrote: it hasnt been patched I was doing it yesterday. You cant hold V for inject while pressing the camera location hot keys that wont work but if you select all of your queens and then press one of your camera location keys your camera will jump to that location and your queens will still be selected. So what you do is press the hot key for all of your queens then press the camera location you want to go to then V for inject and click the hatch then press your next camera location key followed by V and click hatch your queens will be selected the whole time your using your camera keys to move around the map. This method eliminates 1 button press over hot keying individual hatcheries or individual queens.
In case you haven't noticed, it has been, what you are explaining is the method came up with on previous pages this person was asking about my OP method. Yes these are 2 different things.
On April 06 2011 03:01 SC2-Dethklok wrote: I like the camera hotkeys! I just set mine up in unit tester to get the feel for it. What I came up with was setting my create location to crtl + F1-F8 and the recall location simply f1-f8 then I reset select idle worker to f9 and changed inject larva from V to ` I set all of my hatchs to 4 and all of my queens to 5 so now I just press 5 (to select all queens) then f1 ` click hatch f2 ` click hatch ect. I like it a lot more than individually binding queens to 6 7 8 and double tapping 6 7 8 to move around the map and inject. Also being able to hotkey the enemy base with the camera hotkeys is nice that or the xelnaga towers makes scouting and moving so much faster :D
good man. finally someone who understands the advantage of using camera locs.
Honestly I feel like this is the best overall way to do it. It has the control and precision of separate queen hotkeys, but the speed of the base camera method.
On April 06 2011 03:01 SC2-Dethklok wrote: I like the camera hotkeys! I just set mine up in unit tester to get the feel for it. What I came up with was setting my create location to crtl + F1-F8 and the recall location simply f1-f8 then I reset select idle worker to f9 and changed inject larva from V to ` I set all of my hatchs to 4 and all of my queens to 5 so now I just press 5 (to select all queens) then f1 ` click hatch f2 ` click hatch ect. I like it a lot more than individually binding queens to 6 7 8 and double tapping 6 7 8 to move around the map and inject. Also being able to hotkey the enemy base with the camera hotkeys is nice that or the xelnaga towers makes scouting and moving so much faster :D
good man. finally someone who understands the advantage of using camera locs.
Honestly I feel like this is the best overall way to do it. It has the control and precision of separate queen hotkeys, but the speed of the base camera method.
I would prefer this way then Shift+Q-Y as jump to locations and Ctrl+Q-Y as create location.
But, my hands aren't the biggest. This was I can perform the same thing, while still being able to base camera inject.
I just tried using Shift-z to shift-v as a set of jump to hotkeys, with the create locations set as alt-1 to alt-4. I must say that this configuration feels very good, as I don't have to reposition my hand. I've previously tried using the F1 to F4 keys for injecting, but it felt awkward to set the locations, so I never really got used to it.
One thing that I like is to have one or two macro hatches next to either my main or natural, because I like to have most of my units coming out from the same area. The problem is, using the town centre hotkey it can be difficult as you'll skip between distant bases without queens and these macro hatches, so you had to pay attention. With your follow unit trick, it was simplified though there was a bit of delay as the camera moved around and 2 very close hatches could sometimes cause problems. With the camera hotkey method, you have more control over where your camera goes when you inject, with the caveat that you have to set up your hotkey.
I'm reverting back to the back space method because its so much easier and simplified, this is good but it takes really quick hands allot of attention to set up. I will still keep Shift+E-Y as cameras for up to 4 hatcheries or creep spreading.
I can just go from W(base camera) to Shift + E-Y pretty easily to spread creep. Shift+Q Is always my main hatchery.
I don't want to mod my hotkey profile b/c I'd like to eventually end up playing in LAN tournaments. Even though I don't want to mod my hotkeys, I do want to use this method. So I am learning on a standard grid setup right now.
When I practiced the technique, I followed the steps on the 1st post (1. toggle follow current selection, 2. queen hotkey, 3. inject , 4. hold shift + inject, 5. base cam cycle through other hatches)
The problem comes in when I try to cycle through my bases. The follow current selection option doesn't stay toggled when I press backspace to go to another hatch. So I don't get the automatic snap movement when I reach a hatch that doesn't have a queen.
On April 06 2011 03:01 SC2-Dethklok wrote: I like the camera hotkeys! I just set mine up in unit tester to get the feel for it. What I came up with was setting my create location to crtl + F1-F8 and the recall location simply f1-f8 then I reset select idle worker to f9 and changed inject larva from V to ` I set all of my hatchs to 4 and all of my queens to 5 so now I just press 5 (to select all queens) then f1 ` click hatch f2 ` click hatch ect. I like it a lot more than individually binding queens to 6 7 8 and double tapping 6 7 8 to move around the map and inject. Also being able to hotkey the enemy base with the camera hotkeys is nice that or the xelnaga towers makes scouting and moving so much faster :D
I like this method too, it works great up to 4 queens, which is the most I ever make for injecting.
I've been using the backspace method for a while now, but was unaware of this improvement. I just used to give the stop command to my queens control group ( default key is 'S' ) after an inject cycle, which still works after the patch. I also have my base camera key remapped to W. So I just select queens, press V, hold shift, W+click W+click.... wait 1-2 seconds, press S to stop any wanderers.
Hey, I've just spotted this thread and I'm curious to know how to do it properly. Maybe I'm just stupid fellow who cannot even understand this, but It doesn't work. I do this. 1) follow current selection - toggle on 2)Queen hotkey 3) inject + shift 4)base camera 5)..... 6)doesn't work.
I tried this on 5 hatcheries and 3 queens and didn't manage to do it. it showed me hatcheries instead of queens. It looks like "queen camera" didn't override base camera(hatcheries)
Any ideas ?
P.S. not improved backspace method worked for me just fine. I jus wanted to avoid queens doing silly strolls.
On May 04 2011 05:15 spacebarbarian wrote: I've been using the backspace method for a while now, but was unaware of this improvement. I just used to give the stop command to my queens control group ( default key is 'S' ) after an inject cycle, which still works after the patch. I also have my base camera key remapped to W. So I just select queens, press V, hold shift, W+click W+click.... wait 1-2 seconds, press S to stop any wanderers.
That is not a reliable method though. It really depends on the order it cycles through your hatcheries. Say if it goes in this order [hatch with queen], [hatch with queen], [hatch with no queen], then sure, all of you're hatches will be injected and they wont move anywhere. But if the order is [hatch with no queen], [hatch with queen], [hatch with queen] then pressing stop will make one of the queens go to the hatch with no queen and then return to its original hatch so if you stop it it will inject at neither.
EPT
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V for Inject
