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the UPSET.
I've bolded the players that are unexpectedly in their respective groups. Please do not turn this into a debate over what's unexpected or not. Yes it is subjective, but I do think my predictions are that of the mainstream. Please keep in mind that some players are bolded due to their notability. (Past GSL performances, other tournament wins etc.)
We all know that Code A has become increasingly more competitive, and over time, the weak of Code S will be weeded out and eventually replaced by more skillful players that simply have not had their chance to shine. (ex: ST_Bomber, GanZi?, ). It's a good system, there's no doubting that.
However, after the Round of 32 of GSL 5 we're looking at an awkward situation. Just look at the list of Eliminated players and try to fathom that many of these players may actually be demoted. Sure -- some deserve to be, but in my opinion, there are way too many notable players in there. In other words, there is no way anyone would have predicted this after the first round.
EXPLANATIONS
1) The weeding out of the weak has already started - we just had no idea. We're learning the hard way that many of our favorite / notable players have actually been surpassed. Some players were already past their prime in SC1, and were quickly overtaken by the influx of WC3 / new young talent. The faces of GSL 1 - 4 will be quickly replaced.
2) This is absolute bullshit! No way that these players would be eliminated any other day. They clearly underperformed / unlucky / got cheesed out. Everyone should be overreacting to these upsets, but I have full confidence that these players are still among the very best and will prove so in the coming seasons.
3) This is actually what I expected. I predicted this from Day 1. Totally fair. Btw, I'm a fucking genius.
4) Dude. It's a best of 1. Some of the groups are easier than others. Sometimes you lose. Relax.
Personally, I'm of opinion #2, leaning more and more toward #4.
Survivors of the Round of 32:
+ Show Spoiler +- oGsMC
- ST_July
- TSL_Clide
- ZeNEXByun
- LiquidJinro
- CheckPrime
- HongUnPrime
- oGsNaDa
- sanZenith
- oGsEnsnare
- oGsTheWind
- FOXLyn
- TSL_Trickster
- anyproPrime.we
- ZeNEXKyrix
- sCfOu
Eliminated:
+ Show Spoiler +- IMMvp
- oGsHyperdub
- oGsZenio (Jinro vouches)
- ST_RainBOw
- PoltPrime.WE
- oGsTOP
- TheBestfOu
- IMNesTea
- SlayerS_BoxeR
- choyafOu
- vanvanthZenith
- NsPGenius
- TSL_FruitDealer
- MarineKingPrime.WE
- oGsInCa (Jinro vouches)
Deceased:
+ Show Spoiler +
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This season is so awesome. Sure I was expecting 1 maybe 2 upsets, but this many upsets is so awesome.
I'd say it's a mix between option 1 and option 2, none of the better known players who got eliminated lost because of any BS really.
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What's wrong with the bolded survivors? They played well, and are not at all far off in skill level as the majority of the other survivors (with exceptions being MC, Jinro).
As for the eliminated, well I would agree that it's quite a shocker. Some of Code S' TOP class players are out (namely MVP, Nestea, MKP, Top), but the other players don't really surprise me.
The skill level is drastically increasing, and a lot of these players have bigger names than they do competitiveness. Check out their stats on TLPD and you'll see that there aren't that many standouts.
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Im liking the deceased tab, haha.
But its always fun to see the little guy win.
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If Jinro can just get past MC then he has a great shot at winning this 
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The winner of oGsMC and Jinro in the round of 8 will be the winner of this tournament, without a doubt.
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Jinro will win this time, no doubt
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Well, one thing that GSL5 has shown is that the players are getting better and better. GSL4 code A was unwatchable at times, but I've had a blast watching this season's code A games. In my opinion, the reason for the upsets are that the general skill levels of the players are increasing.
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Well, I'd be overreacting if, and only if, these guys who went out had lost due to a gimmicky/stupid strategy, but they were just plain overplayed.
although...
+ Show Spoiler +sanZenith won that game thanks to warp-in storms for harass and an archon toilet. 1.3 anyone?
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Lyn and Check are no upsets for me, so are Fruitdealer, Rainbow and Boxer on the other side.
but of course, MVP, MKP and Nestea out is huge
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I'm just confused why you bolded Rainbow. He's him well...... underperforming for quite a while.
Anyway, most of the "sub-par" players in code S imo have improved the basic mechanics significantly. So now, the game outcome is much more easily decided by build orders and spawn locations. Also, if either player slips up just one bit they tend to lose the game very easily. Previously, some players just didn't have the mechanics to do that so we tended to see the favorites roflstomping these other guys.
If i say anymore, i'll QQ about zerg but never mind.
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Its wonderful to see Lyn in there. Hope he does well!
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I think we are just starting to see that SC2 is just really hard at that level. Even the top top players (MVP/Nestea/MC/ECT) aren't that much better than the other Code S and even Code A players.
Its not like this is anything new though. Its just too hard to dominate at starcraft.. even in BW Flash has an absolutely ridiculous record but he still loses 30% of his games. Including going out early in both individual leagues this time around. This is in BW where the mechanic ceiling is so high.. don't want to start any kind of BW v SC2 stuff but I think its pretty unanimously agreed that SC2 has easier mechanics
I honestly think its harder for someone like MVP to get out of groups than it is to keep winning once you get into the later rounds. In the longer series advantages in strategy/mechanics/whatever have more of an effect.
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Keep in mind that almost every player in the GSL right now have underperformed, or not even qualified, at some point in the past.
It's also not a surprise that players like marineking starts losing games when the other players have gotten used to his gimmicky style of play.
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Balanced is broken, thats why fruitdealer and nestea lost
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NaDa's rise of the first SC2 Bonjwa has begun........
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
On March 01 2011 23:14 bennyaus wrote:
The winner of oGsMC and Jinro in the round of 8 will be the winner of this tournament, without a doubt.
3 words
God of War.
this is probably because the players still need more time to get used to these maps.
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On March 01 2011 23:24 GobIin wrote:
Balanced is broken, thats why fruitdealer and nestea lost
I'll give you nestea, but fruitdealer hasn't been doing so hot since season 1.
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It is all because of the STUPID fucking group play. Why would you let players get elimanted off of the best score in several BO1 series at that high of a level? Even if the maps are completely even someone can just have some dominating 1 base all in or 7 base camp fest either way it devalues the result. If anything Code A should have this not Code S where real skill for the big prize is determined by a series not lucky draws on map, opponent, BO rock paper contest.
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On March 01 2011 23:04 QTIP. wrote:
Also, some players are bolded due to their notability. (Past GSL performances, other tournament wins etc.
I know you said not to turn this thread into that, but you bolded Boxer (meaning you were fine with bolding people based just off SC1 accomplishments) and not Nada, so I'm assuming forgetting to bold Nada was a mistake because he's one of the most notable players in the history of the entire game.
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Nada, winner of July and Clide, MC and Jinro.
It's pretty much a race between those guys, unless the upsets continue, in which case San wins.
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On March 01 2011 23:31 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:04 QTIP. wrote:
Also, some players are bolded due to their notability. (Past GSL performances, other tournament wins etc. I know you said not to turn this thread into that, but you bolded Boxer (meaning you were fine with bolding people based just off SC1 accomplishments) and not Nada, so I'm assuming forgetting to bold Nada was a mistake because he's one of the most notable players in the history of the entire game.
he didnt bold nada because it was expected for him to advance..
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Dominican Republic23 Posts
a lot of new winning face in this GSL... Korea is on fire... those guys are practice like hell in this GSL... this isn't upset for me, its interesting
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On March 01 2011 23:31 RPR_Tempest wrote:
winner of July and Clide
Is it just me, or is July not all that impressive? (besides his mind-boggling elimination of MVP)
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On March 01 2011 23:25 Sgany wrote:
NaDa's rise of the first SC2 Bonjwa has begun........
I support this claim 
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On March 01 2011 23:25 Sgany wrote:
NaDa's rise of the first SC2 Bonjwa has begun........
Now, just as the man who wishes to be world chess champion must win at least one game of chess, so must he win at least one GSL.
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On March 01 2011 23:29 NoobSkills wrote:
It is all because of the STUPID fucking group play. Why would you let players get elimanted off of the best score in several BO1 series at that high of a level? Even if the maps are completely even someone can just have some dominating 1 base all in or 7 base camp fest either way it devalues the result. If anything Code A should have this not Code S where real skill for the big prize is determined by a series not lucky draws on map, opponent, BO rock paper contest.
Except for july vs MVP where july got lucky with his baneling bust there hasnt really been any games where you could say that one person got lucky or did an all in that paid off really well. Sure fruitdealer does all ins but he always has and see where that got him, yeah code a. So overall your bitching about the group format is just plain odd. Most games the person playing the best won, no matter how rich in wins their history is or isnt.
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On March 01 2011 23:31 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:04 QTIP. wrote:
Also, some players are bolded due to their notability. (Past GSL performances, other tournament wins etc. I know you said not to turn this thread into that, but you bolded Boxer (meaning you were fine with bolding people based just off SC1 accomplishments) and not Nada, so I'm assuming forgetting to bold Nada was a mistake because he's one of the most notable players in the history of the entire game.
I didnt bold NaDa because he was expected to make it past the round of 32, and he did. Yes he is notable, but can we agree that it would be confusing if I bolded sanZenith and NaDa in the same group?
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The "elite" zergs and MKP losing is not unexpected. They were doing so well because they abused having unique strategies and exploiting holes in other people's mechanics/knowledge of the game.
Newsflash: Marines and banelings are not the only part of TvZ
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Actually i think it's interesting that SC2 is allready "that" stable with some players staying on top.
The game is still very young, i honestly think it's not surprising at all that there is a wild variety of players performing good...
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I'm kind of confused how you bold FruitDealer and Genius, but do not consider Tester advancing an upset. Obviously not all 3 can advance.
Anyway...for the most part, everybody just got outplayed. There hasn't been a lot of cheese in the GSL this season, but in Bo1 matches, sometimes a guy just has the game of his life. Your explanations are so overreaching, why can't you just accept that sanZenith had a good day or NesTea had a bad one? Why does it have to mean that NesTea is weak or san just cheesed/got lucky? Everyone who advanced, deserved to advance, based on the 2-3 games they have played in this one single tournament.
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On March 01 2011 23:43 cLutZ wrote:
The "elite" zergs and MKP losing is not unexpected. They were doing so well because they abused having unique strategies and exploiting holes in other people's mechanics/knowledge of the game.
Newsflash: Marines and banelings are not the only part of TvZ
Actually, MKP won his only TvZ that night with a crazy heavy-macro, heavy-mech strategy that was absolutely not characteristic of his heavy marine play.
He lost his TvP by just playing poorly, and he lost his TvT by opening with banshees and hellions and doing almost no damage with his opening push, after which sC just pushed and killed off MKP's paltry army.
IMO, MKP isn't a good example of a player losing because he overused a unique strategy. Tonight, he was playing with completely different strategies compared to his usual mass bio play, and it only worked in one of the three games.
Also, Fruitdealer just sucks at ZvP.
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You wont be that surprised if u watch the games. It's not like GSL 1,2,3 when you were upset to see a big name get cheesed out, this time they got outplayed, no shit
Best GSL yet, juding by the quality of the games
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On March 01 2011 23:29 NoobSkills wrote:Even if the maps are completely even someone can just have some dominating 1 base all in or 7 base camp fest either way it devalues the result.
Except, this didn't happen. Along with cLutZ's point, the new maps really make a huge difference because how you win on a large map is very different from a smaller map. A lot of Zergs for instance have been shooting themselves in the foot playing offensive Muta/b/ling, which is just a plain bad idea in wide open middles (Tal'darim Altar and Terminus especially) and on maps with harassable expansions. You can't win that way. Players will have to adapt, and a lot of them just haven't adapted fast enough for this season.
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On March 01 2011 23:31 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Nada, winner of July and Clide, MC and Jinro.
It's pretty much a race between those guys, unless the upsets continue, in which case San wins.
Unless you base your opinion on the strength of their play so far in the GSL rather than the strength of their name, in which case San also wins.
So many people saying stupid stuff like "Oh looks like the path is clear for MC/Jinro now!" Well no, actually it's not. If I were Jinro I'd be much more scared of a random guy playing godlike SC2 than a champion like NesTea who's only in mediocre form.
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On March 01 2011 23:49 Cel.erity wrote:
I'm kind of confused how you bold FruitDealer and Genius, but do not consider Tester advancing an upset. Obviously not all 3 can advance.
Anyway...for the most part, everybody just got outplayed. There hasn't been a lot of cheese in the GSL this season, but in Bo1 matches, sometimes a guy just has the game of his life. Your explanations are so overreaching, why can't you just accept that sanZenith had a good day or NesTea had a bad one? Why does it have to mean that NesTea is weak or san just cheesed/got lucky? Everyone who advanced, deserved to advance, based on the 2-3 games they have played in this one single tournament.
You've got a point, I haven't really accounted for the fact that a Best of 1 can lead to some night/day performances. I'll add it in my post.
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this is the season of Jinro and Clide!!!
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Oh my god, another Jinro vs MC epic battle incoming. *Starts to prepare the bunker*
I was very suprised that 3 of the 4 past GSL champions got knocked down to the Up&Down matches. Yes, FD has been on a bad streak, but Nestea should still be going strong, and MVP was last season's winner. I guess it was a combo of bad luck, possibly a little cockiness and underexpecting their opponents.
Anyways, MC and HuK HWAITING!
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A lot of it is the maps. The top players have excessive practice, at high-level play, on the old maps compared to the "lower" players. The new maps are simply going to require different play styles. The "lower" players simply had a large opportunity and the "upper" players were brought back down to the pack.
It's been very noticeable that all of the non-mirror matchups are playing very differently on those maps. TvZ is all about drop-Harass into a 200/200 push or Z attacking before that. PvZ has taken this weird Muta vs Anti-Muta thing right now (or early timing attacks). And PvT is pretty much a matter of the Terran keeping the Protoss from having all 3 techs fully active before they can go for the death-push.
When they added the new maps, everyone was coming into them with the same amount of experience. Any non-Blizzard map plays different from a Blizzard map, so the old "metagame" doesn't really apply anymore. So the advantage the "better" players had was negated. So the new people that ground those maps the hardest had a real advantage going in. We all just didn't realize what the new maps were going to do to GSL. But it's nice to see so far.
As for San, he obviously had skill to make all 3 GSL opens, so there was something there. A few us of seem to be of the opinion that he finally got over his stage fright, as that game against NesTeas was a thing of beauty. That's about the best PvZ I've ever seen.
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well, Boxer, MKP, Genius, Fruitdealer and Rainbow were only living by their past records anyways..
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95% of the games were longer then 10 minutes, 65% of those were macrogames (3 or more bases).
Saying the good got cheesed is a no-no , its just not true.
The gap is really starting to get smaller and smaller between the players. The 'lesser' gods practise hard and develop (look at Noblesse with a great ghost opener, sanZenith with awesome macro), while the current big names seem to be stuck and riding on their egos / braggingrights.
Theres nothing new comming from these players it seems, sure Fruitdealer did a nice nydus and he won with it, but when he went standard play... well he lost bad, you cant play standard in Code S (and code A mostly) anymore. Its just not a sure win.
MKP screwed over himself with previously noted 'cute' herassments that didnt work and tactics that were broken. The only time he won was on a slower macrogame with mech.
NesTea wasnt too good looking, he held on for ages, but especially vs Ensnare he dropped alot of skill all of a sudden. It wasnt crisp and special like in season 2, it wasnt new.
Genius went for poor macrogames. Really poor macrogames.
TOP played too standard aswell and got outplayed very quickly.
MvP I will let slip. July played amazing and didnt make a mistake. MvP played good but made a few small ones. On this level thats a loss very often.
I'll go one step further and predict the players that are in the top16 now will be there for abit. (apart from Clide, Byun and TheWind). They have showed better play, creative play and a great feel for the game.
SanZenith fighting!
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MKP did reach two finals, so his accomplishments shouldn't be downplayed at all. Even though I don't like his mass MARINESSS style that much.
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United States187 Posts
I think these upsets add to the unpredictability and intrigue to these games. No one is invincible.
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Meh I always cheer for zerg because they really feel like the underdogs 90% of the time, having to die 1-3 armies to kill 1½ armies of the enemies and just having a shitty time versus ledges and whatnot.
With nestea and fruitdealer out I'm quite bured.
BO1 isn't the best format in my opinion though, some people won with somewhat questionable rushes and allin.
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On March 01 2011 23:42 FarbrorAbavna wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:29 NoobSkills wrote:
It is all because of the STUPID fucking group play. Why would you let players get elimanted off of the best score in several BO1 series at that high of a level? Even if the maps are completely even someone can just have some dominating 1 base all in or 7 base camp fest either way it devalues the result. If anything Code A should have this not Code S where real skill for the big prize is determined by a series not lucky draws on map, opponent, BO rock paper contest. Except for july vs MVP where july got lucky with his baneling bust there hasnt really been any games where you could say that one person got lucky or did an all in that paid off really well. Sure fruitdealer does all ins but he always has and see where that got him, yeah code a. So overall your bitching about the group format is just plain odd. Most games the person playing the best won, no matter how rich in wins their history is or isnt.
boxer tea genius MVP all had games with non macro game elements.
some was their fault some was opponent skill/luck either way I think a series would go differently if it was a BO3 or at least in these guys cases would have had a possible different victor.
And regardless saying in "most" games that the best person one is still just not true. There is a reason why they're making larger maps, but LT still has close positions and so does meta which are considered underwhelming in many situations. Sorry, but I don't see the NEED for group play especially with them getting more casters for Code A
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I generally don't like the results of the Code S matchups, except for Jinro, MC and Nada advancing. Nestea, MKP and Fruitdealer were all outplayed so I can live with that. But in the case of MVP, I kinda feel sorry for him. But at least we're gonna be seeing some very interesting matchups in the up and down matches.
Anyways, Jinro and MC are very consistent. And I'm seeing Nada steadily growing stronger and stronger with each GSL season. )
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Personally i think that this season will still have some pretty good games in my honest opinion.
Yes we have seen quite a few upsets in the group stages, but i still feel with the surviving players we still will see a good season in the later stages.
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On March 01 2011 23:49 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:43 cLutZ wrote:
The "elite" zergs and MKP losing is not unexpected. They were doing so well because they abused having unique strategies and exploiting holes in other people's mechanics/knowledge of the game.
Newsflash: Marines and banelings are not the only part of TvZ Actually, MKP won his only TvZ that night with a crazy heavy-macro, heavy-mech strategy that was absolutely not characteristic of his heavy marine play. He lost his TvP by just playing poorly, and he lost his TvT by opening with banshees and hellions and doing almost no damage with his opening push, after which sC just pushed and killed off MKP's paltry army. IMO, MKP isn't a good example of a player losing because he overused a unique strategy. Tonight, he was playing with completely different strategies compared to his usual mass bio play, and it only worked in one of the three games. Also, Fruitdealer just sucks at ZvP.
You made my point. When he was unable to abuse his strategy he lost. His overall play is just not that strong, compared to a Jinro.
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On March 02 2011 00:30 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:49 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 01 2011 23:43 cLutZ wrote:
The "elite" zergs and MKP losing is not unexpected. They were doing so well because they abused having unique strategies and exploiting holes in other people's mechanics/knowledge of the game.
Newsflash: Marines and banelings are not the only part of TvZ Actually, MKP won his only TvZ that night with a crazy heavy-macro, heavy-mech strategy that was absolutely not characteristic of his heavy marine play. He lost his TvP by just playing poorly, and he lost his TvT by opening with banshees and hellions and doing almost no damage with his opening push, after which sC just pushed and killed off MKP's paltry army. IMO, MKP isn't a good example of a player losing because he overused a unique strategy. Tonight, he was playing with completely different strategies compared to his usual mass bio play, and it only worked in one of the three games. Also, Fruitdealer just sucks at ZvP. You made my point. When he was unable to abuse his strategy he lost. His overall play is just not that strong, compared to a Jinro.
He crushed one of the best zergs in the tournament barely building a single marine, and it didn't even look like Kyrix was in his league. I wouldn't go so far as to say he relies on gimmicks.
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On March 01 2011 23:43 cLutZ wrote:
The "elite" zergs and MKP losing is not unexpected. They were doing so well because they abused having unique strategies and exploiting holes in other people's mechanics/knowledge of the game.
Newsflash: Marines and banelings are not the only part of TvZ
Did you even watch MKP's games?
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Honestly, I was expecting Fruitdealer to get knocked out at the round of 32 again, and was strongly suspicious that SlayerS_BoxeR would get knocked out early. They both aren't fantastic right now. Miles better than someone like me, sure, but in comparison to their competition? They really gotta start giving it their all. I hope that they do in the up/down matches D:
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On March 02 2011 00:38 Lysdexia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:43 cLutZ wrote:
The "elite" zergs and MKP losing is not unexpected. They were doing so well because they abused having unique strategies and exploiting holes in other people's mechanics/knowledge of the game.
Newsflash: Marines and banelings are not the only part of TvZ Did you even watch MKP's games?
I only saw the games he lost, and in them he looked "lost."
The banshee-hellion game looked like ME trying the iechoic build and against the protoss he seemed out of his comfort zone: hesitant or overcomitted at all times.
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sanZenith played amazing, hands down.
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oGsMC the only former GSL champion to get past the first round.
so crazy. MVP,Fruitdealer and Nestea all losing and going to the up and down matches
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On March 02 2011 00:49 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 00:38 Lysdexia wrote:On March 01 2011 23:43 cLutZ wrote:
The "elite" zergs and MKP losing is not unexpected. They were doing so well because they abused having unique strategies and exploiting holes in other people's mechanics/knowledge of the game.
Newsflash: Marines and banelings are not the only part of TvZ Did you even watch MKP's games? I only saw the games he lost, and in them he looked "lost." The banshee-hellion game looked like ME trying the iechoic build and against the protoss he seemed out of his comfort zone: hesitant or overcomitted at all times.
I would highly recommend watching his game against Kyrix, then. It was as though I was watching Flash in SC2. The sheer amount of macro and mech in that game was astounding, and he seemed like a completely different player, in a good way.
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I feel that it is way too much luck involved in SC2 at the moment. Maybe its because the skill difference between players is minimal (and they all have a room to improve - we rarely see flawless games) so our current "champions" simply had more luck than others in the previous seasons. Now the tides have turned and they got a bit unlucky and we have "upsets". Really the tip top level players should almost always win - no exceptions and luck should be a factor only between equally skilled players. Then we can say its a competitive sport - currently I think SC2 is more more like a pro gambling. You know the rules, you know how to play at pro level, and statistically you win more than lose but you can still have a bad luck and lose everything.
Upsets are not good for esport and SC2 at its current stage. It feels to random and unpredictable. Sponsor like to have Champions they can invest into without too much worry about the results. Currently there is no one like that in SC2.
Looking at the previous seasons of GSL I start to respect more and more people that show consistency even if they don’t win the whole thing. It is a pity that Idra left as he was one of the best examples.
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The only reason im happy to see all of the amazing players get eliminated is that i can see jinro winning this GSL being a real option now.
Gorilla terran hwaiting!
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It wouldn't be interesting if we see the same players advancing. Starcraft is a game where you can improve by practice and i think that most people who aren't expected to advance showed that. Look at sanzenith, awesome game against one of the best player, Nestea and to think he was the same guy who failed a FFE against check. Also Check, does Rainbow think he have auto win because he eliminated the same guy 2 times. Also July defeating MVP not once but twice
You can just stay overconfidence because your on top. To those people who are blaming the system for these upsets, please watch the games before doing so....
This also makes it different from BW since it is dominated by 4 players
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On March 02 2011 00:00 Logican wrote:
well, Boxer, MKP, Genius, Fruitdealer and Rainbow were only living by their past records anyways..
MKP was in the final last season lol.
I don't care what the reason for the upsets but I'm loving it.
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On March 02 2011 01:09 Poocs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 00:00 Logican wrote:
well, Boxer, MKP, Genius, Fruitdealer and Rainbow were only living by their past records anyways.. MKP was in the final last season lol. I don't care what the reason for the upsets but I'm loving it.
oh im sorry, i meant Boxer, Genius, Fruitdealer and Rainbow were only living their past records. MKP is just not good, period.
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On March 02 2011 00:30 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:49 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 01 2011 23:43 cLutZ wrote:
The "elite" zergs and MKP losing is not unexpected. They were doing so well because they abused having unique strategies and exploiting holes in other people's mechanics/knowledge of the game.
Newsflash: Marines and banelings are not the only part of TvZ Actually, MKP won his only TvZ that night with a crazy heavy-macro, heavy-mech strategy that was absolutely not characteristic of his heavy marine play. He lost his TvP by just playing poorly, and he lost his TvT by opening with banshees and hellions and doing almost no damage with his opening push, after which sC just pushed and killed off MKP's paltry army. IMO, MKP isn't a good example of a player losing because he overused a unique strategy. Tonight, he was playing with completely different strategies compared to his usual mass bio play, and it only worked in one of the three games. Also, Fruitdealer just sucks at ZvP. You made my point. When he was unable to abuse his strategy he lost. His overall play is just not that strong, compared to a Jinro.
Sounds like you've never watched any of MKP's games in the previous seasons ㅎㄷㄷ
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On March 02 2011 01:00 Cikop wrote:
I feel that it is way too much luck involved in SC2 at the moment. Maybe its because the skill difference between players is minimal (and they all have a room to improve - we rarely see flawless games) so our current "champions" simply had more luck than others in the previous seasons. Now the tides have turned and they got a bit unlucky and we have "upsets". Really the tip top level players should almost always win - no exceptions and luck should be a factor only between equally skilled players. Then we can say its a competitive sport - currently I think SC2 is more more like a pro gambling. You know the rules, you know how to play at pro level, and statistically you win more than lose but you can still have a bad luck and lose everything.
Upsets are not good for esport and SC2 at its current stage. It feels to random and unpredictable. Sponsor like to have Champions they can invest into without too much worry about the results. Currently there is no one like that in SC2.
Looking at the previous seasons of GSL I start to respect more and more people that show consistency even if they don’t win the whole thing. It is a pity that Idra left as he was one of the best examples.
I agree. After viewing both of Ret's passive games, it just makes me appreciate Idra more as an exceptional sc2 pro gamer.
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as soon as i saw this i knew marineking got knock out today.....
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No ones getting out of the Up/Down Matches
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On March 02 2011 01:22 jaiBing wrote:
as soon as i saw this i knew marineking got knock out today.....
To be fair, I put spoiler in the title.
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On March 01 2011 23:15 Slakkoo wrote:
Jinro will win this time, no doubt
You are just jinxing it now..... never tempt fate
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These upsets have certainly made this season interesting, even though some of my favorites have been knocked out.
In my oppnion the two biggest reasons for these upsets are:
1) The group stages can be pretty random, you basically couple of play BO1's.
2) The good players aren't that far away from the top players.
I don't expect that many upsets now that we got into bo3's.
I predict that MC, Jinro or NaDa will win, unless more upsets happen. Or maybe San, he has shown some of the strongest play so far, but I kinda have a feeling that he will get crushed by pressure. It's different to perform well when everyon expects you to get smashed than to perform well when everyone expects it.
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Upsets? more like the season of disappointment and liquidbet fails, all i have left is july 
Guess i can start rooting for check now, anyone artosis compares to rock lee is pretty awesome in my eyes.
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explanation 1 for
genius
fd
boxer
rainbow
aren't code s level anymore
tester and kyrix are shaping up a bit, but i'm not sure it will last long with what's coming from code a. i expect 2 to 4 of these guys to drop to code a if they're not very lucky
explanation 2+4 for
zenio
mvp
nestea
these guys are top level, they'll stay in code s easy unless they get some extreme misfortune in the matches or get sick, shit like that
on the opposite end, i expect lyn and anypro to keep at the bottom of code s doing some up/down soon
mc, july nad nada have shown the strongest psyche and plays so far of those who advanced; if this is the season of upsets though, jinro and byun should pull through, if jinro takes mc again and byun whoever he plays, then this season will forever bear the mark of upsets
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Only 3 upsets, mvp, nestea, mkp and those are likely because other players are specifically practicing against their style.
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On March 02 2011 01:49 darmousseh wrote:
Only 3 upsets, mvp, nestea, mkp and those are likely because other players are specifically practicing against their style.
Only thing is MVP and Nesteas style is so solid its hard to practice against. Against nestea, he just got beat at his own game. MVP, july said the baneling bust was unstoppable if they did a 2rax expand. and MKPs style is hard to replicate in practice.
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On March 02 2011 01:44 anatem wrote:
explanation 1 for
genius
fd
boxer
rainbow
aren't code s level anymore
tester and kyrix are shaping up a bit, but i'm not sure it will last long with what's coming from code a. i expect 2 to 4 of these guys to drop to code a if they're not very lucky
explanation 2+4 for
zenio
mvp
nestea
these guys are top level, they'll stay in code s easy unless they get some extreme misfortune in the matches or get sick, shit like that
on the opposite end, i expect lyn and anypro to keep at the bottom of code s doing some up/down soon
mc, july nad nada have shown the strongest psyche and plays so far of those who advanced; if this is the season of upsets though, jinro and byun should pull through, if jinro takes mc again and byun whoever he plays, then this season will forever bear the mark of upsets
Agree with most of this. From watching him stream a couple of weeks ago Genius just isn't very good and there's a pretty good chance he'll go to code A. Code A is really strong, I would pick most of those players to beat Genius, Boxer and Rainbow.
I think fruitdealer will stay up though if he practises, he's still Code S material imo.
MVP and Nestea are still awesome and should be fine, and back at the top next season.
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they're all just making way for a team liquid champion! goo jinroo!!!
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On March 01 2011 23:17 Zephirdd wrote:Well, I'd be overreacting if, and only if, these guys who went out had lost due to a gimmicky/stupid strategy, but they were just plain overplayed. although... + Show Spoiler +sanZenith won that game thanks to warp-in storms for harass and an archon toilet. 1.3 anyone?
He never did Archon toilet actually, he tried, but only had 2 Archons (need about 6-8 to properly Archon toilet), that wasn't why he won. Whether we want to admit it or not he outplayed his opponent. I really feel the OP is completely and totally overreacting we shouldn't be thinking 'these top players are going to Code A', but rather something more along the lines of 'If that win for San was not a fluke, then the average player skill must be increasing which means better games in the future'.
Edit: Just wanted to add something. Why do people go ape-shit over spoilers? I really fail to see what the big deal is. Knowing who won or lost is irrelevant, its how that player won or lost that is entertaining, and that can be only learned by watching the game. Furthermore if spoilers bother you that bad, why on earth would you ever come and look at a thread that is BLATANTLY about the GSL results before you watched the matches?
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On March 02 2011 01:57 SichuanPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:17 Zephirdd wrote:Well, I'd be overreacting if, and only if, these guys who went out had lost due to a gimmicky/stupid strategy, but they were just plain overplayed. although... + Show Spoiler +sanZenith won that game thanks to warp-in storms for harass and an archon toilet. 1.3 anyone? He never did Archon toilet actually, he tried, but only had 2 Archons (need about 6-8 to properly Archon toilet), that wasn't why he won. Whether we want to admit it or not he outplayed his opponent. I really feel the OP is completely and totally overreacting we shouldn't be thinking 'these top players are going to Code A', but rather something more along the lines of 'If that win for San was not a fluke, then the average player skill must be increasing which means better games in the future'. Edit: Just wanted to add something. Why do people go ape-shit over spoilers? I really fail to see what the big deal is. Knowing who won or lost is irrelevant, its how that player won or lost that is entertaining, and that can be only learned by watching the game. Furthermore if spoilers bother you that bad, why on earth would you ever come and look at a thread that is BLATANTLY about the GSL results before you watched the matches?
Thank you ~~ I put *spoiler* for all the player lists and in the title too, so hopefully no one sees something they aren't ready for yet.
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On March 02 2011 01:57 SichuanPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:17 Zephirdd wrote:Well, I'd be overreacting if, and only if, these guys who went out had lost due to a gimmicky/stupid strategy, but they were just plain overplayed. although... + Show Spoiler +sanZenith won that game thanks to warp-in storms for harass and an archon toilet. 1.3 anyone? He never did Archon toilet actually, he tried, but only had 2 Archons (need about 6-8 to properly Archon toilet), that wasn't why he won. Whether we want to admit it or not he outplayed his opponent. I really feel the OP is completely and totally overreacting we shouldn't be thinking 'these top players are going to Code A', but rather something more along the lines of 'If that win for San was not a fluke, then the average player skill must be increasing which means better games in the future'. Edit: Just wanted to add something. Why do people go ape-shit over spoilers? I really fail to see what the big deal is. Knowing who won or lost is irrelevant, its how that player won or lost that is entertaining, and that can be only learned by watching the game. Furthermore if spoilers bother you that bad, why on earth would you ever come and look at a thread that is BLATANTLY about the GSL results before you watched the matches?
He did get a pretty good archon toilet on about 5 broodlords which instantly died after the vortex ended. I think it must be admitted that the vortex played a huge role in his victory. You are pretty much forced to split up your army or you will get splashed hardcore. Next patch will definitely make protoss less fearsome late game. Late game he couldn't archon toilet, but only because nestea had ultras (they splash, too!)
I think if the game had been played in patch 1.3, the game may have ended differently, and it may have been the same. Can't really tell. All I can say for certain is that the ability vortex shifted a lot of battles into the protoss favor in that game.
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Most of the top BW players are still playing BW. The BW vets like Boxer and Rainbow who were last competitive 5 years ago or more were just relying on their experience in the first few seasons. Their mechanics are just not up to par anymore and even though SC2 is mechanically easier, it was inevitable that younger players would catch up to them quickly. Most of the BW vets who remain are the younger ones with better mechanics and can practice all day.
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up/down matches gonna be epic i'll say
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I believe that since we don´t have our sc2 invincible bonjwa boxer crazy guy yet (maybe he will appear this season) any results will continue to be mostly unpredictable until ro4 like in the other GSLs. It´s more like a gameplay evolution process than an upset to me. People who didn´t have the opportunity to watch the birth of bw are getting their chance now on sc2. We are just making hystory folks! No reason to be sad about anything...
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On March 02 2011 02:10 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 01:57 SichuanPanda wrote:On March 01 2011 23:17 Zephirdd wrote:Well, I'd be overreacting if, and only if, these guys who went out had lost due to a gimmicky/stupid strategy, but they were just plain overplayed. although... + Show Spoiler +sanZenith won that game thanks to warp-in storms for harass and an archon toilet. 1.3 anyone? He never did Archon toilet actually, he tried, but only had 2 Archons (need about 6-8 to properly Archon toilet), that wasn't why he won. Whether we want to admit it or not he outplayed his opponent. I really feel the OP is completely and totally overreacting we shouldn't be thinking 'these top players are going to Code A', but rather something more along the lines of 'If that win for San was not a fluke, then the average player skill must be increasing which means better games in the future'. Edit: Just wanted to add something. Why do people go ape-shit over spoilers? I really fail to see what the big deal is. Knowing who won or lost is irrelevant, its how that player won or lost that is entertaining, and that can be only learned by watching the game. Furthermore if spoilers bother you that bad, why on earth would you ever come and look at a thread that is BLATANTLY about the GSL results before you watched the matches? He did get a pretty good archon toilet on about 5 broodlords which instantly died after the vortex ended. I think it must be admitted that the vortex played a huge role in his victory. You are pretty much forced to split up your army or you will get splashed hardcore. Next patch will definitely make protoss less fearsome late game. Late game he couldn't archon toilet, but only because nestea had ultras (they splash, too!) I think if the game had been played in patch 1.3, the game may have ended differently, and it may have been the same. Can't really tell. All I can say for certain is that the ability vortex shifted a lot of battles into the protoss favor in that game.
Blizzard is fixed on making Mothership as useless as possible. It's only 400/400 and 8 supply but better nerf that bad boy. It's a good thing PF stays untouched and it's almost free.
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i always hate the argument that WC3 players would win everything in SC2. So far broodwar pros dominate the scene. And for every WC3 player that could switch and win everything there are at least 5 broodwar pros to roflstomp them.
Id go for option 4.
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5 of the 8 seeds getting eliminated in the Ro32 was certainly unexpected. Next season's up and down matches will be beastly.
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I think we are really seeing how fragile the game is. It just so easy to set your opponent back in the early game.
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Wow, it seems like all the players good enough to beat Jinro have disappeared. Dare I say that I think he might win this GSL?
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4
1
3
2
imo
BO1 is very cruel. It's not like these players are out of code S. They're just not going to win this season and have to play to stay. Until we see the metagame stabilize more we are constantly going to get surprised by different players.
I also enjoy that each season seems up for grab - as a fan (without a favorite player) this makes the each season very entertaining! (I'm a fan of the NFL Lions, so I'm familiar with what it's like to know you're not going to see a trophy before the season starts.)
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On March 02 2011 02:33 Robstickle wrote:
Wow, it seems like all the players good enough to beat Jinro have disappeared. Dare I say that I think he might win this GSL?
I'm sure oGsMC still scares him though, among others. But I do like his chances! Would be great to see him do semis or better once again at least.
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On March 02 2011 02:33 Robstickle wrote:
Wow, it seems like all the players good enough to beat Jinro have disappeared. Dare I say that I think he might win this GSL?
I'm pretty sure oGsMC, TSL_Trickster (Tester), oGsNaDa, and TSL_Clide can give Jinro a very challenging game.
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On March 02 2011 02:24 Poocs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 02:10 shinosai wrote:On March 02 2011 01:57 SichuanPanda wrote:On March 01 2011 23:17 Zephirdd wrote:Well, I'd be overreacting if, and only if, these guys who went out had lost due to a gimmicky/stupid strategy, but they were just plain overplayed. although... + Show Spoiler +sanZenith won that game thanks to warp-in storms for harass and an archon toilet. 1.3 anyone? He never did Archon toilet actually, he tried, but only had 2 Archons (need about 6-8 to properly Archon toilet), that wasn't why he won. Whether we want to admit it or not he outplayed his opponent. I really feel the OP is completely and totally overreacting we shouldn't be thinking 'these top players are going to Code A', but rather something more along the lines of 'If that win for San was not a fluke, then the average player skill must be increasing which means better games in the future'. Edit: Just wanted to add something. Why do people go ape-shit over spoilers? I really fail to see what the big deal is. Knowing who won or lost is irrelevant, its how that player won or lost that is entertaining, and that can be only learned by watching the game. Furthermore if spoilers bother you that bad, why on earth would you ever come and look at a thread that is BLATANTLY about the GSL results before you watched the matches? He did get a pretty good archon toilet on about 5 broodlords which instantly died after the vortex ended. I think it must be admitted that the vortex played a huge role in his victory. You are pretty much forced to split up your army or you will get splashed hardcore. Next patch will definitely make protoss less fearsome late game. Late game he couldn't archon toilet, but only because nestea had ultras (they splash, too!) I think if the game had been played in patch 1.3, the game may have ended differently, and it may have been the same. Can't really tell. All I can say for certain is that the ability vortex shifted a lot of battles into the protoss favor in that game. Blizzard is fixed on making Mothership as useless as possible. It's only 400/400 and 8 supply but better nerf that bad boy. It's a good thing PF stays untouched and it's almost free.
They don't want to make the mothership useless. It's just that it's a bit of an odd unit. I doubt they'll ever be able to fully balance it. There is no counter to an ability like vortex, as it is so large that splitting your army is rather ineffective, and putting everything into it makes archons instantly kill everything in seconds.
"Super" units with uncounterable abilities can break the game, yet when you take away the ability, they suddenly become "worthless". I think the real problem is obvious here. It's the "super" part.
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to be honest all of the players remaining can give Jinro a game; if there's one thing this GSL has shown is that at the top level the play is so even that its almost impossible to be overconfident going into any game. Take one game at a time, before bigging up Jinro's chances too much :p
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On March 01 2011 23:14 KristianJS wrote:If Jinro can just get past MC then he has a great shot at winning this
I think he thinks that too and might choke =(
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On March 02 2011 02:40 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 02:24 Poocs wrote:On March 02 2011 02:10 shinosai wrote:On March 02 2011 01:57 SichuanPanda wrote:On March 01 2011 23:17 Zephirdd wrote:Well, I'd be overreacting if, and only if, these guys who went out had lost due to a gimmicky/stupid strategy, but they were just plain overplayed. although... + Show Spoiler +sanZenith won that game thanks to warp-in storms for harass and an archon toilet. 1.3 anyone? He never did Archon toilet actually, he tried, but only had 2 Archons (need about 6-8 to properly Archon toilet), that wasn't why he won. Whether we want to admit it or not he outplayed his opponent. I really feel the OP is completely and totally overreacting we shouldn't be thinking 'these top players are going to Code A', but rather something more along the lines of 'If that win for San was not a fluke, then the average player skill must be increasing which means better games in the future'. Edit: Just wanted to add something. Why do people go ape-shit over spoilers? I really fail to see what the big deal is. Knowing who won or lost is irrelevant, its how that player won or lost that is entertaining, and that can be only learned by watching the game. Furthermore if spoilers bother you that bad, why on earth would you ever come and look at a thread that is BLATANTLY about the GSL results before you watched the matches? He did get a pretty good archon toilet on about 5 broodlords which instantly died after the vortex ended. I think it must be admitted that the vortex played a huge role in his victory. You are pretty much forced to split up your army or you will get splashed hardcore. Next patch will definitely make protoss less fearsome late game. Late game he couldn't archon toilet, but only because nestea had ultras (they splash, too!) I think if the game had been played in patch 1.3, the game may have ended differently, and it may have been the same. Can't really tell. All I can say for certain is that the ability vortex shifted a lot of battles into the protoss favor in that game. Blizzard is fixed on making Mothership as useless as possible. It's only 400/400 and 8 supply but better nerf that bad boy. It's a good thing PF stays untouched and it's almost free. They don't want to make the mothership useless. It's just that it's a bit of an odd unit. I doubt they'll ever be able to fully balance it. There is no counter to an ability like vortex, as it is so large that splitting your army is rather ineffective, and putting everything into it makes archons instantly kill everything in seconds. "Super" units with uncounterable abilities can break the game, yet when you take away the ability, they suddenly become "worthless". I think the real problem is obvious here. It's the "super" part.
Scrap the mothership and give the Arbiter back?
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On March 02 2011 02:38 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 02:33 Robstickle wrote:
Wow, it seems like all the players good enough to beat Jinro have disappeared. Dare I say that I think he might win this GSL? I'm pretty sure oGsMC, TSL_Trickster (Tester), oGsNaDa, and TSL_Clide can give Jinro a very challenging game.
i read that list as oGsMC.
since the rest are not a big threat if jinro isn't just failing that day. especially tester lol at him being a threat to anyone. he can 4 gate or fast expand. then 2 base collosus. so he's the easiest protoss to play against of the ones left. TBH Sanzenith might be the hardest toss, because no one knows what he is capable of right now.
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If I had to pick I would say 4 is the biggest concern here. BO1 are just spectacularly random and thats what we got to see this season. Mind games are simply amazing and unless your NesTea they are very effective in BO1.
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A mix of 1 and 4. I thought some weird stuff was going on at first but after seeing Nestea lose to san in a straight up long game it just mostly made me think that a lot of the better players out there simply fell early to the grueling process that was getting into the open seasons. If Tester got knocked out 2 seasons in a row before the Ro64 who knows what other less talked about talent could have suffered the same results. Also with a player like san who was remembered for being terrible after making a few bad decisions in previous seasons in just a few games, he ended up being great. Lastly the example that Artosis brings up was Nestea's terrible creep spread in season 1, and then going on to win season 2. There may be other players out there that have failed miserably because of one mechanic of their gameplay they have struggled to improve on, but once it is fixed it could really change them and perhaps be the catalyst to help improve the rest of their major flaws.
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It's because every game is a BO1. Given BO3 or BO5 sets, I'm fairly sure there would've been far fewer upsets.
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I'd have to go with the format playing too big a role as well. So much has been made of the gsl really being the only big tournament going on in Korea and you have all of these teams and guys practicing so hard and losing two games against two different opponents just completely takes you out? I'd be much more comfortable with seeding the code s players based on past gsl performances and just going back to the old format like code a still does.
That's not to say that upsets still wouldn't occur but I think the results would be more indicative of players general skill. A player like choya making the ro8 would be less likely and that's what they should be going for.
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Jinro is either very confident, or very confused/worried about wtf is going on. And Huk....Huk has the Up and Down Apocalypse to look forward to.
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On March 01 2011 23:04 QTIP. wrote:
I've bolded the players that are unexpectedly in their respective groups.
Yes, I really expected MVP to be in group B. Such a shocker!
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I think bo1 in group is ok. Progamer like neatea losing a bo1 is very possible, but losing 2 bo1 means he got outplayed. "tricked me once, shame on you. Tricked me twice, shame on me."
people considered as favorites have nothing and no one to blame but themselves.
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On March 02 2011 02:56 TheBB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:04 QTIP. wrote:
I've bolded the players that are unexpectedly in their respective groups. Yes, I really expected MVP to be in group B. Such a shocker!
Hmmm... did you understand the nature of the entire post? I hope I don't have to explain that groups doesn't mean GSL groups, but the spoiler tab groups. Damn it, I just explained it for you. Hopefully you can wrap your head around it.
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Personally I got surprised - in a negative sense - by most of the disappointingly one-sided "Zerg losses" so far.
- Players stick to producing really weak "throw away" Zerglings and Banelings in massive numbers just to run into lines of sieged tanks or a maxed Protoss death ball over and over again.
- People are building ONE Spine Crawler at the top of their ramp and the commentators call that "safe" against harass and dont even bother to correct themselves when there are 4-5 blue flame Hellions simply running past while roasting all the "awesome" Speedlings at that choke. [*1]
Both seem kinda illogical to me. MMM is bound to be less effective - except in the form of drop harrass - on the large GSL maps compared to the smaller Blizzard maps and thus a change of emphasis for Terrans was to be expected. The bio army is only extremely mobile due to STIMPACK and that doesnt work for Marathons or even without Medivacs (i.e. early in the game). In short: Expect either very aggressive drop play or bio-supported mech?
Some players really need to learn to think beyond their race and their usual methods. This is true for all races but Zerg have to adapt the most.
[*1] My "common sense logic" here: If the map is bigger you could just wait with the Hellion harrass until you have blue flame and enough Hellions to do a crushing attack (also: the longer you wait the more workers there are to bunch up). In that case making more than a few Zerglings to scout is wasted larvae and a few Spine Crawlers and an extra Queen should provide a better cost efficiency to provide defense in addition to leaveing more larvae for Drones. Maybe even the "constant Queen production" from Day[9]'s funday monday would be a nice way to start because you can block chokes nicely with 2-4 Queens. Thoughts? I just apply my common sense, but maybe I am wrong.
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Liquibet rank #44 at the moment. I used to be really far away, like rank 1300 something, but now I get keep getting all my bets right.
13/16 with Code A ro32 predictions.
here is what I voted:
![[image loading]](http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7734/codeaday4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3058/codeaday3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5599/codeaday2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/1856/codeaday1.jpg)
Rain, CoCa and SuperNova were the only ones I didn't see coming.
Almost got todays Code S predictions right too
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you predicted against ret moonglade and haypro !!!!! just joking
I didn't get to see all the matches played, but July winning over mvp twice made thise whole season worth it for me, I don't hate or dislike mvp at all he's a great player, I just love July for beeing JulyZerg . Also hoping Jinro will take it far this season again, go go foreign champion !!
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I think the reason there aren't any super dominant players is because the skill gap between the players is very close atm. Mvp is the one I'd say is the most solid, but he wasn't prepared for baneling busts at all.
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I stopped watching GSL after san beat Nestea, This gsl IS COMPLETE fail so far
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On March 02 2011 03:14 Mindflow wrote:
I stopped watching GSL after san beat Nestea, This gsl IS COMPLETE fail so far
why because sanzenith won because he was underestimated and was playing amazingly?
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On March 02 2011 03:14 Mindflow wrote:
I stopped watching GSL after san beat Nestea, This gsl IS COMPLETE fail so far
Lol NesTea got outplayed, I don't see the problem.
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On March 02 2011 03:17 Playguuu wrote:
Idra died?
Yes.
+ Show Spoiler +If this wasn't a joke though, no he didn't die lol. It was just that the GSL had a video which was like a tribute to IdrA after he died lol.
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To be frank, I'm very disappointed with GSL 5 so far. It's not that I don't like upsets, just that so many of these games have been just that--disappointing. For example:
--You get a player like Ret, fresh from a win at Assembly, show some extremely high level play in his round of 32 in Code A but get 2-0'd. Lot's of people think he might leave Korea now.
--The next day you get a player like Tester, who hasn't impressed anybody since beta, cruise through to the round of 16 of Code S in two quick games with uninspiring 1 base play. He'll be sticking around for another two seasons at the very least.
In theory, the up and down system for Code S and Code A should allow the best players to rise to the top. I don't see it happening like that in practice. Code S seems to be stagnating with about half its number made up of players who were at the top of the game at release but are no longer impressive, while many of the best players in the world do not even qualify for Code A (Bomber, for example) or are knocked out in the first round (Ret, Ace, Squirtle).
Not that Ret shouldn't have lost, I think his opponent MMA was very good. It just seems to me that a match at the skill level of Ret-MMA would be more fitting in Code S. Instead Code S still has players like Choya and TheWind, who are... decent, I guess?
I do not think the GSL format is necessarily fundamentally broken, I just think if the cards keep falling the way they have been, we won't see a Code S full of the best players in Korea anytime soon.
You may disagree with my assessment, based on your judgments of individual players, but give it a few seasons. In half a year if we still see players 1-basing their way through Code S while better players flounder in Code A, I think most of us will have lost interest by then.
What I would really like to see is a more robust team league, which guarantees you get to see the best players in action all time. GSTL February was a treat (putting such stars as Squirtle in the limelight), but it was far too short. Just one week of single elimination team matches is not enough. I would like to see something like proleague or the Gosu Coaching Team League in GSL sooner rather than later, where all the teams play all the other teams.
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Ret kind of played terribly like far worse than he had previously in GSL. the wind is now a coach and doesn't expect to stay in Code S long, he used to be good season 1 which is how he is in code s to begin with.
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Not a single player in the bottom half of the brackets seems like they're deserving of appearing in a finals, but it's going to happen and it seems strange :/
July has yet to show any solid play even though he can rack up some wins with early aggression.
Clide has always been a pretty mediocre GSL Terran, never accomplished much never impressed anyone(besides Tastosis).
Check is the same way
Nada hardly practices anymore
Ensnare had 1 good run, making it to the semi's in season 1 and was a force in the beta, but we haven't seen much from him since.
Lyn is impressive that he's gotten as far as he has already, but he's no match for these other players the deeper the tournament goes.
Anypro......who?
Kyrix and his baneling aggression days are over, and we've been left to witness some pretty uninspiring muta/ling/baneling play since. Nothing to write home about.
Am I being too hard on these guys or does anyone else feel the same?
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Dude sanZenith is my hero, that guy has completely exploded into awesomeness after what was some seriously embarrassing play in previous seasons.
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DOES NaDa hardly practice anymore? Or are you just saying that?
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On March 02 2011 03:28 HollowLord wrote:
Dude sanZenith is my hero, that guy has completely exploded into awesomeness after what was some seriously embarrassing play in previous seasons.
yeah apparently the dude said he just didn't want to lose in 10 minutes is because after 10 minutes he's beastly.
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Tachion, I agree. Let me take this argument to an extreme, and we'll see how silly it sounds.
Say you replace the ro16 in Code S (except Jinro and MC, maybe a few others) with a handful of players who got knocked out of the ro32 in Code A or didn't qualify at all.
You end up with oGsMC vs ST|Bomber in the Code S final. Actually, that sounds pretty good.
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On March 02 2011 03:21 Gaius Baltar wrote:
To be frank, I'm very disappointed with GSL 5 so far. It's not that I don't like upsets, just that so many of these games have been just that--disappointing. For example:
--You get a player like Ret, fresh from a win at Assembly, show some extremely high level play in his round of 32 in Code A but get 2-0'd. Lot's of people think he might leave Korea now.
--The next day you get a player like Tester, who hasn't impressed anybody since beta, cruise through to the round of 16 of Code S in two quick games with uninspiring 1 base play. He'll be sticking around for another two seasons at the very least.
To be fair, he had to play 2 PVP's. It's all one-base play in Korea for that matchup.
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On March 02 2011 03:35 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 03:21 Gaius Baltar wrote:
To be frank, I'm very disappointed with GSL 5 so far. It's not that I don't like upsets, just that so many of these games have been just that--disappointing. For example:
--You get a player like Ret, fresh from a win at Assembly, show some extremely high level play in his round of 32 in Code A but get 2-0'd. Lot's of people think he might leave Korea now.
--The next day you get a player like Tester, who hasn't impressed anybody since beta, cruise through to the round of 16 of Code S in two quick games with uninspiring 1 base play. He'll be sticking around for another two seasons at the very least.
To be fair, he had to play 2 PVP's. It's all one-base play in Korea for that matchup.
yeah i mean he played PvP, it's not like he has only one real build ( FE 2 base collosus) in other matchups as well. :/ tester is by far overrated.
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I like this GSL because it's anyone's game. MC and Jinro are the obvious favorites but with how the season has played out so far, being a favorite doesn't mean as much.
we're seeing shifts in how some players (GSL winners) are just ahead of others during a certain phase of SC2 and then the player base starts catching up to them.
FD winning GSL1 is a perfect example of this. Terrans & Protoss at the time just did not understand how a Zerg wants to play out a game in mid & late game nor did they understand how to make their own unit compositions be very cost efficient versus Zerg.
MC is another example making the claim that he had PvT figured out and felt unbeatable in that matchup. up to 1/7/11, MC has been 17-4 in PvT. post 1/7/11, he's been 6-7.
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On March 02 2011 03:37 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 03:35 QTIP. wrote:On March 02 2011 03:21 Gaius Baltar wrote:
To be frank, I'm very disappointed with GSL 5 so far. It's not that I don't like upsets, just that so many of these games have been just that--disappointing. For example:
--You get a player like Ret, fresh from a win at Assembly, show some extremely high level play in his round of 32 in Code A but get 2-0'd. Lot's of people think he might leave Korea now.
--The next day you get a player like Tester, who hasn't impressed anybody since beta, cruise through to the round of 16 of Code S in two quick games with uninspiring 1 base play. He'll be sticking around for another two seasons at the very least.
To be fair, he had to play 2 PVP's. It's all one-base play in Korea for that matchup. yeah i mean he played PvP, it's not like he has only one real build ( FE 2 base collosus) in other matchups as well. :/ tester is by far overrated.
Lol ease off the SKS hate, and don't worry - I agree with you. He's a very overrated player these days, but he did make top 8 last GSL (knocked out by the soon-to-be champ) and he's into the round of 16 again. Let's see if he can live up to his reputation.
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I would just like to point out that the title is a spoiler for anyone who is smart enough to look at previous games and assume what will happen with the most recent games.
I have not watched last nights games but I was able to assume what the title meant. I personally do not care as I had a feeling this would happen anyways but I would like to see the title changed to just GSL 5: Spoilers. (The Season of... leaves a blank that is too easily filled with common sense.) so anyone that is like myself is not spoiled.
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The BO1 play between players in a group is retarded.
Now you have the majority of best players in the up and down matches. Please explain to me what they are going to do with 3 previous GSL Champions, a 2x runner up in the up and down matches.
I wonder what the koreans are saying on the "play...?" website.
Maybe Idra should have finished this season =P?
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surprised at the results tbh i think most of the top names like fruitdealer, genius, rainbow are all brand names considering their recent results in comparison to how they did in the early seasons. The skill has evolved and I don't know where I could place any of those guys in the new talent nowadays. Surprising losses were mostly MKP, MVP, and NesTea imo, everyone else was kind of a shoe-in for up and downs eventually
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On March 02 2011 03:40 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 03:37 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 02 2011 03:35 QTIP. wrote:On March 02 2011 03:21 Gaius Baltar wrote:
To be frank, I'm very disappointed with GSL 5 so far. It's not that I don't like upsets, just that so many of these games have been just that--disappointing. For example:
--You get a player like Ret, fresh from a win at Assembly, show some extremely high level play in his round of 32 in Code A but get 2-0'd. Lot's of people think he might leave Korea now.
--The next day you get a player like Tester, who hasn't impressed anybody since beta, cruise through to the round of 16 of Code S in two quick games with uninspiring 1 base play. He'll be sticking around for another two seasons at the very least.
To be fair, he had to play 2 PVP's. It's all one-base play in Korea for that matchup. yeah i mean he played PvP, it's not like he has only one real build ( FE 2 base collosus) in other matchups as well. :/ tester is by far overrated. Lol ease off the SKS hate, and don't worry - I agree with you. He's a very overrated player these days, but he did make top 8 last GSL (knocked out by the soon-to-be champ) and he's into the round of 16 again. Let's see if he can live up to his reputation.
he's a strong but extremely predictable player, which results in him doing well vs bad players and having no shot vs good players. so he's stuck in this limbo.
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i think the only true upset is mvp's departure. that guy is really really good and is probly the race to be if you dont want to get flaked out by cheese.
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On March 02 2011 03:01 Rabiator wrote:Personally I got surprised - in a negative sense - by most of the disappointingly one-sided "Zerg losses" so far. - Players stick to producing really weak "throw away" Zerglings and Banelings in massive numbers just to run into lines of sieged tanks or a maxed Protoss death ball over and over again.
- People are building ONE Spine Crawler at the top of their ramp and the commentators call that "safe" against harass and dont even bother to correct themselves when there are 4-5 blue flame Hellions simply running past while roasting all the "awesome" Speedlings at that choke. [*1]
Both seem kinda illogical to me. MMM is bound to be less effective - except in the form of drop harrass - on the large GSL maps compared to the smaller Blizzard maps and thus a change of emphasis for Terrans was to be expected. The bio army is only extremely mobile due to STIMPACK and that doesnt work for Marathons or even without Medivacs (i.e. early in the game). In short: Expect either very aggressive drop play or bio-supported mech? Some players really need to learn to think beyond their race and their usual methods. This is true for all races but Zerg have to adapt the most. [*1] My "common sense logic" here: If the map is bigger you could just wait with the Hellion harrass until you have blue flame and enough Hellions to do a crushing attack (also: the longer you wait the more workers there are to bunch up). In that case making more than a few Zerglings to scout is wasted larvae and a few Spine Crawlers and an extra Queen should provide a better cost efficiency to provide defense in addition to leaveing more larvae for Drones. Maybe even the "constant Queen production" from Day[9]'s funday monday would be a nice way to start because you can block chokes nicely with 2-4 Queens. Thoughts? I just apply my common sense, but maybe I am wrong.
Look, I'll give you this, clearly zergs have to do something more/else.
It's a huge open map, that feels like the perfect place for ultrafast speedlings... but your right, terrans fastest ground unit giggles at speedlings for the most part.
Sure the longer you wait the more damage your attack could do, however the more likely you're sc outed/the other player was enough eco to hold up a decent defence.
I have to admit that my personal common sense logic leans towards fast agressive speedlings not slow stuck in your base queens on massive maps, but again who am I heh
The GSL system is not pefect for the player, but it does give some epic epic matchs.
This crazy 3 bo1s, in no way assure the best player makes it though, yet the code s system gives a great advanatge to those at the top... it's interesting and perhaps not how I would have done it, but ever match is exciting in code S... there is no oh look round of 64 Awsomedude vs randomnonamenochance snorefests, because the impact of an upset is huge in the group stages.
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Apologies for being so down on Tester, the 2 PvPs wasn't the best example. Still, I picked on him because at this point I'd just honestly rather be watching somebody else in Code S.
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On March 02 2011 03:42 SniXSniPe wrote:
The BO1 play between players in a group is retarded.
Now you have the majority of best players in the up and down matches. Please explain to me what they are going to do with 3 previous GSL Champions, a 2x runner up in the up and down matches.
I wonder what the koreans are saying on the "play...?" website.
Maybe Idra should have finished this season =P?
The group play worked perfectly last season and has worked for OSL and MSL for eternity pretty much. Dunno what this complaint is about.
This season rules. Sure my beloved NesTea is out, but it's only so SanBonjwa can take his well deserved gold.
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On March 02 2011 03:48 Gaius Baltar wrote:
Apologies for being so down on Tester, the 2 PvPs wasn't the best example. Still, I picked on him because at this point I'd just honestly rather be watching somebody else in Code S.
Np, I get what your saying, the ideas behind your post made perfect sense.
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Well, at the very least, the up-and-down matches will be well worth watching.
Having just finished watching Group H, I'm sad to see Marine King go, but I'm not surprised he lost to Inca. MKP's TvP has never had the same flare as his other MUs.
But IMO GSTL > GSL. If only we could get OGS to put in Jinro now and then...
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On March 02 2011 03:44 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 03:40 QTIP. wrote:On March 02 2011 03:37 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 02 2011 03:35 QTIP. wrote:On March 02 2011 03:21 Gaius Baltar wrote:
To be frank, I'm very disappointed with GSL 5 so far. It's not that I don't like upsets, just that so many of these games have been just that--disappointing. For example:
--You get a player like Ret, fresh from a win at Assembly, show some extremely high level play in his round of 32 in Code A but get 2-0'd. Lot's of people think he might leave Korea now.
--The next day you get a player like Tester, who hasn't impressed anybody since beta, cruise through to the round of 16 of Code S in two quick games with uninspiring 1 base play. He'll be sticking around for another two seasons at the very least.
To be fair, he had to play 2 PVP's. It's all one-base play in Korea for that matchup. yeah i mean he played PvP, it's not like he has only one real build ( FE 2 base collosus) in other matchups as well. :/ tester is by far overrated. Lol ease off the SKS hate, and don't worry - I agree with you. He's a very overrated player these days, but he did make top 8 last GSL (knocked out by the soon-to-be champ) and he's into the round of 16 again. Let's see if he can live up to his reputation. he's a strong but extremely predictable player, which results in him doing well vs bad players and having no shot vs good players. so he's stuck in this limbo.
You pretty much nailed it... it always seems like people know exactly what he's doing. Artosis always praises him for his "safe macro" play, but in reality he loses doing just that.
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On March 02 2011 03:28 Turgid wrote:
DOES NaDa hardly practice anymore? Or are you just saying that?
Apparently he's been quite busy due to studying for university. I think it came up during the GSL pregame show for his group. Not entirely sure..
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Deceased:
+ Show Spoiler +
*idrA
wow that was probably the funniest thing i've seen this week, tyvm
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The game is still too new to say anything definitive about the skills of the top players. the races are arguably still unbalanced (much like Terran at the start of SC1) and continuous patches are going to help that.
With the constant change, you have a lot of volatility in terms of the "skills" of top players. You have strong people like fruitdealer. gradually become weaker as the game (meta and actual) changes. And beasts such as GanZi is rapidly making their way up to the top.
At this under-developed stage, it is not logical to talk about whether a certain player is "strong". A "strong" player is one who have sharp and clean micro, impeccable macro (see Flash + Stork) and ingenious strategies. However, that cannot be contested with a "incomplete" version of the game.
To truly find a Flash or Stork of this game, time is needed for players to refine the general timings and tactics of the game, and for Blizzard to weed out any slight imbalances that can only be discovered by the masses.
Like the early days of SC1, you need a couple of years after the beta for the game to TRULY develop into a "complete" state, And only at that point would an oppurtunity for "true" champions to emerge.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I know you said not to start a debate about whats unexpected and whats expected, but I think you have enough of them wrong to mention it:
Zenio and Inca are definitely unexpected dropouts, especially Zenio who I think played far below his level that day. Julyzerg is DEFINITELY a HUGELY unexpected survivor. Like, thats easily the biggest upset this tournament, by far.
Clide is an upset I think, although I dont really know if Clide or Byun is stronger TvT so hard to say.
Lyn isnt REALLY that surprising in that group, it was a very strange group.
As for comments about group play being bad/the thing to blame for this... I dont really get it. Group play is something I personally prefer - at least it avoids two really strong players KOing eachother early, and means you have to be strong in more than 1 matchup (usually).
Id prefer full round robin over this system, but its still better than straight up bo3 from the start.
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So blaming the system and the players that advance will change anything?
To those who QQ about Tester's one base play..
Tester is not known for one base play, he always expand or tech and just defend anything that is throw at him early game. That what his opponents know and take advantage of it. Didn't he lose last season because of this style to MVP and maybe the reason why he failed to qualify 3 times in a row? You can say he improved and prepared for this. I mean it's the opponent's fault for relying to data alone but now is now and that is past.
His micro still the best no doubt about it
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On March 02 2011 03:57 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 03:28 Turgid wrote:
DOES NaDa hardly practice anymore? Or are you just saying that? Apparently he's been quite busy due to studying for university. I think it came up during the GSL pregame show for his group. Not entirely sure..
Nada definitely studying a lot.
Q : How do you feel winning to the next rounds?
Nada : Feel little bit numb as I was not confident about today. I think I was lucky today
Q : Why were you not confident?
Nada : I could not get enough practices done. On top of that facing one of my team mate always worries me. Personally I would've thought going into the rounds of 16 with the second place in the group is still extremly well done.
...
Q : You are studying at the university while progaming. What's your goal for uni?
Nada : I did not get good grades last semester. So I will try hard studying as well and get my average weighted grades to 3
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On March 02 2011 04:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I know you said not to start a debate about whats unexpected and whats expected, but I think you have enough of them wrong to mention it:
Zenio and Inca are definitely unexpected dropouts, especially Zenio who I think played far below his level that day. Julyzerg is DEFINITELY a HUGELY unexpected survivor. Like, thats easily the biggest upset this tournament, by far.
Clide is an upset I think, although I dont really know if Clide or Byun is stronger TvT so hard to say.
Lyn isnt REALLY that surprising in that group, it was a very strange group.
As for comments about group play being bad/the thing to blame for this... I dont really get it. Group play is something I personally prefer - at least it avoids two really strong players KOing eachother early, and means you have to be strong in more than 1 matchup (usually).
Id prefer full round robin over this system, but its still better than straight up bo3 from the start.
Hello, to be entirely honest with you I'm glad you posted some feedback.
Obviously, my views are subjective and limited to browsing these forums and watching the GSL through my computer. However, you train with these dudes everyday so I'll take your word for it.
Additionally, my reasoning for leaving Julyzerg unbolded was the firestorm I was going to receive for considering him lucky.
Thanks for the input.
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On March 02 2011 03:58 Vinx wrote:Deceased: + Show Spoiler + *idrA wow that was probably the funniest thing i've seen this week, tyvm
Haha glad you liked it. Can't take credit for it though, gotta give GOM props for putting together that hilarious video.
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On March 02 2011 04:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I know you said not to start a debate about whats unexpected and whats expected, but I think you have enough of them wrong to mention it:
Zenio and Inca are definitely unexpected dropouts, especially Zenio who I think played far below his level that day. Julyzerg is DEFINITELY a HUGELY unexpected survivor. Like, thats easily the biggest upset this tournament, by far.
Clide is an upset I think, although I dont really know if Clide or Byun is stronger TvT so hard to say.
Lyn isnt REALLY that surprising in that group, it was a very strange group.
As for comments about group play being bad/the thing to blame for this... I dont really get it. Group play is something I personally prefer - at least it avoids two really strong players KOing eachother early, and means you have to be strong in more than 1 matchup (usually).
Id prefer full round robin over this system, but its still better than straight up bo3 from the start.
Hey Jinro, what do you think about SanZenith's performance? I'm sure you might have some better insight on that lol. He never seemed as good as he was against Nestea, Boxer and Ensnare. Was he always that good or did he just practice hard?
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On March 02 2011 03:55 QTIP. wrote:
You pretty much nailed it... it always seems like people know exactly what he's doing. Artosis always praises him for his "safe macro" play, but in reality he loses doing just that.
you can't have 2 builds for all matchups and not expect people to easily be able to prepare for you.
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I think the fact that older players underperform and some new players have their time to shine is also because of balance-reasons and of course the BO1-System.
It's pretty obvious that players like Nestea, Zenio and Fruitdealer have huge Problems as Zerg now and that extremely good players like July (won with 2 cheeses in a row) and the player with probably the most games (Check.Prime) just barely made it out of the first round.
It's also pretty obvious that none of those new talents are Zerg, which is pretty sad IMHO.
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On March 02 2011 04:14 kickinhead wrote:
I think the fact that older players underperform and some new players have their time to shine is also because of balance-reasons and of course the BO1-System.
It's pretty obvious that players like Nestea, Zenio and Fruitdealer have huge Problems as Zerg now and that extremely good players like July (won with 2 cheeses in a row) and the player with probably the most games (Check.Prime) just barely made it out of the first round.
It's also pretty obvious that none of those new talents are Zerg, which is pretty sad IMHO.
DRG isn't in GSL yet, so you have to wait for the new talented Zerg.
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On March 01 2011 23:17 Zephirdd wrote:Well, I'd be overreacting if, and only if, these guys who went out had lost due to a gimmicky/stupid strategy, but they were just plain overplayed. although... + Show Spoiler +sanZenith won that game thanks to warp-in storms for harass and an archon toilet. 1.3 anyone?
He didn't do an archon toilet. Although Tasteless and Artosis were yelling at him to do it the whole time. He only vortex'd half the army and then just cleaned it up with the archons.
SanZenith straight up outplayed his whole group, which no one was expecting. Seeing Ensnare make it out of the group wasn't as big of a deal. No one expected NesTea and Boxer to be 0-2 for sure.
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I find it refreshing to see new faces pop up in the GSL. I mean how many expected guys like San, Ensnare etc to advance, who havent shown anything since the first 2 open seasons. And then the code A players who were promoted like Byun, July and Lyn, who have shown that they can compete with the code S players by advancing in their groups.
The game evolves very rapidly because the game is still young. Its silly to expect the same guys to remain competitive consistently because sooner or later their strategies will be figured out and they will fall off the radar unless they can mix up their play and come up with new strategies. MKP is a great example since he is known for his great micro and his use of marine/medivac. He has been figured out, which is why he was mixing it up in the group today with mech against kyrix and some wierd build against SCfOu. Unfortunately it didnt quite work out for him, which is a shame because I think hes a very entertaining player, as well as many others who got knocked down to the Up/down matches.
Another fine example, Fruitdealer, who was seen as the best zerg player in the world, but has been knocked out early in the seasons after his win in GSL1, and will now go to the up/down matches for a second time.
One of the reasons could also be the maps as some already pointed out. Playing on Terminus Re instead of Steppes of War is obviously a HUGE difference. Strats that worked well on smaller maps and close spawns will be less effective on large maps, thus creating a significant change in the metagame.
Arguing that there are balance issues is kind of pointless. I personally dont think there are any significantly huge imbalances that makes the game completely broken or whatever else people seem to think.
There are some units however, who are a bit stronger than they perhaps should be and others who arent strong enough.
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On March 02 2011 04:21 Torumfroll wrote:
I find it refreshing to see new faces pop up in the GSL. I mean how many expected guys like San, Ensnare etc to advance, who havent shown anything since the first 2 open seasons. And then the code A players who were promoted like Byun, July and Lyn, who have shown that they can compete with the code S players by advancing in their groups.
The game evolves very rapidly because the game is still young. Its silly to expect the same guys to remain competitive consistently because sooner or later their strategies will be figured out and they will fall off the radar unless they can mix up their play and come up with new strategies. MKP is a great example since he is known for his great micro and his use of marine/medivac. He has been figured out, which is why he was mixing it up in the group today with mech against kyrix and some wierd build against SCfOu. Unfortunately it didnt quite work out for him, which is a shame because I think hes a very entertaining player, as well as many others who got knocked down to the Up/down matches.
Another fine example, Fruitdealer, who was seen as the best zerg player in the world, but has been knocked out early in the seasons after his win in GSL1, and will now go to the up/down matches for a second time.
One of the reasons could also be the maps as some already pointed out. Playing on Terminus Re instead of Steppes of War is obviously a HUGE difference. Strats that worked well on smaller maps and close spawns will be less effective on large maps, thus creating a significant change in the metagame.
Arguing that there are balance issues is kind of pointless. I personally dont think there are any significantly huge imbalances that makes the game completely broken or whatever else people seem to think.
There are some units however, who are a bit stronger than they perhaps should be and others who arent strong enough.
Yeah, Idk why people are so surprised to see Boxer/Fruitdealer/Genius out. They never really got anywhere super far in GSL after the early opens. NesTea and MVP were the only two surprises I had.
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On March 02 2011 04:31 Redneck! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:21 Torumfroll wrote:
I find it refreshing to see new faces pop up in the GSL. I mean how many expected guys like San, Ensnare etc to advance, who havent shown anything since the first 2 open seasons. And then the code A players who were promoted like Byun, July and Lyn, who have shown that they can compete with the code S players by advancing in their groups.
The game evolves very rapidly because the game is still young. Its silly to expect the same guys to remain competitive consistently because sooner or later their strategies will be figured out and they will fall off the radar unless they can mix up their play and come up with new strategies. MKP is a great example since he is known for his great micro and his use of marine/medivac. He has been figured out, which is why he was mixing it up in the group today with mech against kyrix and some wierd build against SCfOu. Unfortunately it didnt quite work out for him, which is a shame because I think hes a very entertaining player, as well as many others who got knocked down to the Up/down matches.
Another fine example, Fruitdealer, who was seen as the best zerg player in the world, but has been knocked out early in the seasons after his win in GSL1, and will now go to the up/down matches for a second time.
One of the reasons could also be the maps as some already pointed out. Playing on Terminus Re instead of Steppes of War is obviously a HUGE difference. Strats that worked well on smaller maps and close spawns will be less effective on large maps, thus creating a significant change in the metagame.
Arguing that there are balance issues is kind of pointless. I personally dont think there are any significantly huge imbalances that makes the game completely broken or whatever else people seem to think.
There are some units however, who are a bit stronger than they perhaps should be and others who arent strong enough. Yeah, Idk why people are so surprised to see Boxer/Fruitdealer/Genius out. They never really got anywhere super far in GSL after the early opens. NesTea and MVP were the only two surprises I had.
Fair enough. As I said earlier, some players were considered surprises simply based on notability and past performances. Those 3 are prime examples. Boxer (legend), Fruitdealer (GSL1), Genius (Blizzcon).
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On March 02 2011 04:33 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:31 Redneck! wrote:On March 02 2011 04:21 Torumfroll wrote:
I find it refreshing to see new faces pop up in the GSL. I mean how many expected guys like San, Ensnare etc to advance, who havent shown anything since the first 2 open seasons. And then the code A players who were promoted like Byun, July and Lyn, who have shown that they can compete with the code S players by advancing in their groups.
The game evolves very rapidly because the game is still young. Its silly to expect the same guys to remain competitive consistently because sooner or later their strategies will be figured out and they will fall off the radar unless they can mix up their play and come up with new strategies. MKP is a great example since he is known for his great micro and his use of marine/medivac. He has been figured out, which is why he was mixing it up in the group today with mech against kyrix and some wierd build against SCfOu. Unfortunately it didnt quite work out for him, which is a shame because I think hes a very entertaining player, as well as many others who got knocked down to the Up/down matches.
Another fine example, Fruitdealer, who was seen as the best zerg player in the world, but has been knocked out early in the seasons after his win in GSL1, and will now go to the up/down matches for a second time.
One of the reasons could also be the maps as some already pointed out. Playing on Terminus Re instead of Steppes of War is obviously a HUGE difference. Strats that worked well on smaller maps and close spawns will be less effective on large maps, thus creating a significant change in the metagame.
Arguing that there are balance issues is kind of pointless. I personally dont think there are any significantly huge imbalances that makes the game completely broken or whatever else people seem to think.
There are some units however, who are a bit stronger than they perhaps should be and others who arent strong enough. Yeah, Idk why people are so surprised to see Boxer/Fruitdealer/Genius out. They never really got anywhere super far in GSL after the early opens. NesTea and MVP were the only two surprises I had. Fair enough. As I said earlier, some players were considered surprises simply based on notability and past performances. Those 3 are prime examples. Boxer (legend), Fruitdealer (GSL1), Genius (Blizzcon).
Fruitdealer has not done anything amazing in the GSL since season 1, Genius has not done anything amazing in the GSL period, and Boxer's fame comes from BW (And his good performance in season 2).
I can't imagine how someone can be surprised that people who don't have a good match history are not performing well.
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Why is this season so boring now? All we have left to watch is Huk,Jinro and MC
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On March 02 2011 04:56 Mindflow wrote:
Why is this season so boring now? All we have left to watch is Huk,Jinro and MC
If you only ever watch champions, you're going to have bad Starcraft experiences regularly. You need to be able to look at new or unrecognized players playing good games(as practically everyone has, the games have been AMAZING) and say "Yeah, this is a guy I can root for."
Let me emphasize this since it has been unfairly ignored:
THE GAMES HAVE BEEN AMAZING
This is hands down the best GSL ever in terms of quality of play, and it's not just from champion players. Even Code A stepped it up, even though some of the matches are boring it's completely on another plane of existence from code A last season. If you only watch GSL to see foreigners play, I can see how this might be boring, but I also don't see that as a fair way to treat starcraft or tournaments in general.
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If we must keep group play I really wish it was round robin, all players playing everyone within the group rather then this W1 vs L1, W2 vs L2 shit.
Overall would prefer a more standard best of 3s bracket play instead of groupings
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On March 01 2011 23:25 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:14 bennyaus wrote:
The winner of oGsMC and Jinro in the round of 8 will be the winner of this tournament, without a doubt. 3 words God of War. this is probably because the players still need more time to get used to these maps.
maybe, but who killed the god of war? thats right, Kratoss
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Great games so far, have really enjoyed it all. Very difficult to predict anything at all since the overall level of play seems to so high.
Although MKP went out his game against Zenith was simply incredible macro, the speed and timing of expansions was amazing. Really thought he was going to dominate the others then. Should have pulled out the mass marines! Want Jinro to win it now for the europeans, can't wait for his match vs MC its going to be so good.
Does anyone else always cheer for Zerg when its a late game PvZ? They always seems like such an underdog against the unstoppable protoss death balls no matter how well they play.
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On March 02 2011 04:56 Mindflow wrote:
Why is this season so boring now? All we have left to watch is Huk,Jinro and MC
You apparently haven't seen a single one of the games that sparked this whole discussion.
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On March 02 2011 05:13 Shockk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:56 Mindflow wrote:
Why is this season so boring now? All we have left to watch is Huk,Jinro and MC You apparently haven't seen a single one of the games that sparked this whole discussion.
Thanks for beating me to it. The quality of the games this GSL is consistently higher than in previous seasons.
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I blame bo1.
GOM should back to BO3 games, it was a lot better
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On March 02 2011 05:17 zYwi3c wrote:
I blame bo1.
GOM should back to BO3 games, it was a lot better
Why? What's your evidence? This worked beautifully in January. BEAUTIFULLY. It also worked beautifully in BW starleagues. As far as I'm concerned, it worked beautifully here. There were upsets because players lost their games, not because a system tainted with the stink of unfairness forced them to lose the 2 games necessary for getting knocked out.
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Season of noobs would be a better name for this. San-Anypro-HongUn were biggest candidates to demote to code a in the last up&down matches and yet still they are here in the code s (i don't know what kind of luck is holding them there because none of these 3 show skills to me. Well, San played well in the group but anypro and hongun? give me a break).
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Give the competitive scene and the game in general time to settle before declaring upsets. It's going to be like this for some time.
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I wait for ST_Bomber to become the first Bonjwa.
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I think new player will raise and now i'm definitly rooting for NaDa and Jinro :D
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On March 01 2011 23:25 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:14 bennyaus wrote:
The winner of oGsMC and Jinro in the round of 8 will be the winner of this tournament, without a doubt. 3 words God of War. this is probably because the players still need more time to get used to these maps.
I would like to wager thousands of liquibettable cash on that, July has shown an extremely middling results as of, his entire sc2 career. He's shown some sparks of brilliance, the victory over Mvp in the first match I'll give to him, the second was an all-in luck (which can work once in a while as seen against Bomber in the Startale ICCUP battle when he did the same bust 5 times...and it worked once).
His other victories have mostly been mediocre and is definitely a situation where I think Tastosis' bias plays more than it should. In other words, I think he is like a poor man's Fruitdealer - even more volatile with even less solid mechanics in the late game. That being said, he has a shot at beating Clide - but I can almost guarantee the win he will get involves a baneling bust.
Edit:
On March 02 2011 05:19 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:17 zYwi3c wrote:
I blame bo1.
GOM should back to BO3 games, it was a lot better Why? What's your evidence? This worked beautifully in January. BEAUTIFULLY. It also worked beautifully in BW starleagues. As far as I'm concerned, it worked beautifully here. There were upsets because players lost their games, not because a system tainted with the stink of unfairness forced them to lose the 2 games necessary for getting knocked out.
I'm perfectly fine with upsets, I didn't mind that Nestea/Boxer went out to San (deservedly so), but when the vast majority of all up/down players from last make it to the Round of 16 this time and essentially reverse with everyone...it's a bit much, it's not just an upset, it's confusing.
A star player going is one thing...when the Detective, the King, the Emperor, and the Genie drop like flies it's another.
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On March 01 2011 23:14 KristianJS wrote:If Jinro can just get past MC then he has a great shot at winning this
Especially now with MKP and MVP out of the way!
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When Flash went out early in the Starleagues this year people flipped their shit too. Where is he now? On top of the power ranking and probably the most dominant player in winner's league right now.
Even the best players lose sometimes, especially in the type of format the GSL has chosen. The truly good players will be just fine.
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On March 02 2011 04:19 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:17 Zephirdd wrote:Well, I'd be overreacting if, and only if, these guys who went out had lost due to a gimmicky/stupid strategy, but they were just plain overplayed. although... + Show Spoiler +sanZenith won that game thanks to warp-in storms for harass and an archon toilet. 1.3 anyone? He didn't do an archon toilet. Although Tasteless and Artosis were yelling at him to do it the whole time. He only vortex'd half the army and then just cleaned it up with the archons. SanZenith straight up outplayed his whole group, which no one was expecting. Seeing Ensnare make it out of the group wasn't as big of a deal. No one expected NesTea and Boxer to be 0-2 for sure.
I think a lot of people missed it... but he vortexed all the overseers so the ultras couldn't see the archons and attack them, which is why most of the ultras disappeared by the time the units were released from vortex.
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And on topic, I'm looking at the list of eliminated and safe players, and honestly if there weren't labels and i didn't watch GSL, either of those lists could be safe. Players are considered the best because they perform consistently. Honestly the only bolds in my opinion would be july/thewind in safe and nestea in eliminated. Everyone else who survived pretty much did it straight up with the talent that we all know they have. Just because they beat the fan favorites doesn't mean the system is broken, it just shows that there is more skill in the mid tiers than we thought.
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I don't know why so many people are complaining. This is by far the best season. Sure it is sad that some of the fan favourites leave the tournament early. But doesn't the overall better quality outweigh this?
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On March 02 2011 05:59 dragoonier wrote:
I don't know why so many people are complaining. This is by far the best season. Sure it is sad that some of the fan favourites leave the tournament early. But doesn't the overall better quality outweigh this?
I agree with you 100%, my OP wasn't to complain about what's going on. It's simply an observation based on what we've seen so far this season: Stunning upsets, and higher-level play than any other GSL!
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I like the upsets, give us new faces and stars to cheer for. Also forces the old stars to practice more or change their game or face elimination into code A. If i recall correctly most of the top names went out not too cheese but by getting outplayed. Except game2 of mvp/july i suppose which was a 2 base baneling/ling bust.
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What do you mean Jinro vouched? Also jinro lost? Now that I think of it his ro32 was just recently, wasn't it. Thought he went to ro16 heh...
Glad Kyrix won. It was like a rematch from the semifinals of GSL 2 =O
Edit: Oh, MVP actually beat Kyrix but Kyrix beat 2 others to get to the top. Nice
Hurray Tester! Hurry Kyrix!
Poor Genius Poor Fruitdealer
Glad that Kyrix vs MVP was set 1, so I can watch And seems to be all of Kyrix's games were entertaining :D
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On March 02 2011 06:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:What do you mean Jinro vouched? Also jinro lost? Now that I think of it his ro32 was just recently, wasn't it. Thought he went to ro16 heh... Glad Kyrix won. It was like a rematch from the semifinals of GSL 2 =O Edit: Oh, MVP actually beat Kyrix but Kyrix beat 2 others to get to the top. Nice Hurray Tester! Hurry Kyrix! Poor Genius Poor Fruitdealer Glad that Kyrix vs MVP was set 1, so I can watch And seems to be all of Kyrix's games were entertaining :D
What? Jinro got 1st in his group.
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Idk, I looked in the OP and according to it Jinro lost... checked later, and Jinro got into Ro16 Yay!
Oh no too bad Rainbow what happened man? You used to be so good
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On March 02 2011 06:22 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Idk, I looked in the OP and according to it Jinro lost... checked later, and Jinro got into Ro16 Yay! Oh no too bad Rainbow what happened man? You used to be so good
lol what are you smoking... ^^
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On March 02 2011 06:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:What do you mean Jinro vouched? Also jinro lost? Now that I think of it his ro32 was just recently, wasn't it. Thought he went to ro16 heh... Glad Kyrix won. It was like a rematch from the semifinals of GSL 2 =O Edit: Oh, MVP actually beat Kyrix but Kyrix beat 2 others to get to the top. Nice Hurray Tester! Hurry Kyrix! Poor Genius Poor Fruitdealer Glad that Kyrix vs MVP was set 1, so I can watch And seems to be all of Kyrix's games were entertaining :D
Btw, it was MKP that was playing against kyrix, not Mvp lol.
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On March 02 2011 01:23 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 01:22 jaiBing wrote:
as soon as i saw this i knew marineking got knock out today..... To be fair, I put spoiler in the title.
I know what he means, I immediately knew too without ever clicking on the thread.
It's the wording and the timing that does it.
When you know people like Nestea, MVP are out and see the title of this thread you know how the sentence ends. The timing tells you that there was at least one more big upset today, and then you know MKP is out.
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The group play is fine. Round of 32 in previous seasons had BO3, this is the same as a BO3 except more interesting.
If there is a problem it's in the match-ups. If you end up in a group with only terrans, it's easy to prepare as it's just one match-up. If you end up in a group with all 3 races, it's a lot harder to prepare, and you are at a disadvantage.
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I don't agree with everything Idra says, but I think he was right when, ages ago, he was asked about the best other Z's and said that Fruitdealer was not super fantastic and tended to make all-innish decisions. Fruit's results since then have proved him right.
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Can't believe you put July in the upset category.
I'll vote option 1 and 3.
Sure, there were some upsets, like NesTea and MVP. But seriously, who expected FD and MKP to go through in dominating fashion? What have those two players even done recently or what matches have those two played recently to suggest they are still the top of the top? Same with RainbOw, Genius, Zenio and InCa. With players like NaDa and July, they have already shown their champion mentality in the past with their BW achievements, so it was always likely IMO that they would be able to step it up a notch with every GSL. BoxeR was an emotional upset, not really an unexpected upset IMO as one can't really expect him to compete at the very top with the amount of other engagements he has nowadays.
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I agree with the way things are going. It's about time the "known players" are getting knocked out by truly better players.
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On March 02 2011 07:09 tyCe wrote:
Can't believe you put July in the upset category.
I'll vote option 1 and 3.
Sure, there were some upsets, like NesTea and MVP. But seriously, who expected FD and MKP to go through in dominating fashion? What have those two players even done recently or what matches have those two played recently to suggest they are still the top of the top? Same with RainbOw, Genius, Zenio and InCa. With players like NaDa and July, they have already shown their champion mentality in the past with their BW achievements, so it was always likely IMO that they would be able to step it up a notch with every GSL. BoxeR was an emotional upset, not really an unexpected upset IMO as one can't really expect him to compete at the very top with the amount of other engagements he has nowadays.
I agree about Fruitdealer, but MKP got to the finals of GSL2, came in place second in the GOM TV All-Stars, got to the Ro8 of GSL3 losing to MC, and lost to MVP in the finals of the January GSL. He's been by far one of the most consistent T's out there; I'd call him the Yellow/Stork of SC2 when it comes to getting silvers. His loss was a definite upset.
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The amount of "upsets" only gives tribute to how the first couple rounds of a tournament are the MOST important for the top players. Best of 1 is anybody's game, and a pro like Nestea who performs amazingly in Bo3/5/7 has to be able to buckle down for that single win against any opponent. In longer series, strategy and skill balance the series in the better player's favor but in a Bo1 the lesser player only has to play one good game.
GSL2 was a perfect example of how nestea reacted to MKP to take the victory in a longer series.
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hahaha idra deceased... sounds like he died
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On March 02 2011 07:12 iSometric wrote:
WHo knocked out Boxer?
sanZenith and oGsEnsare got out, and Boxer and NesTea go to up and down matches
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On March 02 2011 07:12 iSometric wrote:
WHo knocked out Boxer?
Nestea, oGsEnsnare, SanZenith all beat Boxer
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I am sooooo looking forward to watching the Up and Down matches. Code A players will have to pick games off GSL champions/runnerups just to get into Code S, and likewise champions of GSL are in danger of dropping into Code A.
Oh man, Up and Down matches is a scary place to be this season.
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Well I hope the whole season is an upset and a foreigner wins! Go Jinro!
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On March 02 2011 07:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 07:09 tyCe wrote:
Can't believe you put July in the upset category.
I'll vote option 1 and 3.
Sure, there were some upsets, like NesTea and MVP. But seriously, who expected FD and MKP to go through in dominating fashion? What have those two players even done recently or what matches have those two played recently to suggest they are still the top of the top? Same with RainbOw, Genius, Zenio and InCa. With players like NaDa and July, they have already shown their champion mentality in the past with their BW achievements, so it was always likely IMO that they would be able to step it up a notch with every GSL. BoxeR was an emotional upset, not really an unexpected upset IMO as one can't really expect him to compete at the very top with the amount of other engagements he has nowadays. I agree about Fruitdealer, but MKP got to the finals of GSL2, came in place second in the GOM TV All-Stars, got to the Ro8 of GSL3 losing to MC, and lost to MVP in the finals of the January GSL. He's been by far one of the most consistent T's out there; I'd call him the Yellow/Stork of SC2 when it comes to getting silvers. His loss was a definite upset.
Exactly, i could never understand why people hate on MKP so much after all that he has achieved. He does not brag about how good he is he lets tourney performances do the talking for him and i feel he should get some respect. Noone is or has been as consistant as he has. If his style is so gimicky and so easy like people make it out to be explain the consistentsy? you cant. If its so horrible people would have been raping him after his first succesful season. Sad to still see him as an underdog and watch him being hated on so much. There will always be haters i guess.
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I think that its the new maps. Maybe the previously better players don't quite know how to macro well on the new maps yet, its really a different style of play.
For example, if you have someone like nestea, he may know how to deal really well with alot of pressure due to small maps, but does he know how to deal with a much more passive early game with alot of new tech paths late game?
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I'm actually astonished to see the list of eliminated players compiled together. Would you have bet any amount of money on Boxer, Nestea, Fruitdealer, MVP, and MKP all being gone this early? It's nice to see foreigners gaining more and more presence at the GSL, entirely Team Liquid apparently, but Jinro is the only code S foreigner now that Idra is gone. The rest of Liquid is making strides though, they're getting much better every season. You can't blame Idra for jumping ship, there's a lot of money to be made and he's pretty dominant in the West.
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On March 02 2011 07:50 MK4512 wrote:
I think that its the new maps. Maybe the previously better players don't quite know how to macro well on the new maps yet, its really a different style of play.
For example, if you have someone like nestea, he may know how to deal really well with alot of pressure due to small maps, but does he know how to deal with a much more passive early game with alot of new tech paths late game?
Well, Nestea lost on Shakuras Plateau. Don't remember the other map though.
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I really hope that Jinro takes the GSL this time!!
Also GSL5 is the season of... less CHEESE!!! yeah f*ck you BitByBit!!
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I'm honestly not too surprised about FruitDealer
He hasn't really been dominating anything at all lately.
I am surprised about these though:
- IMMvp
- oGsTOP
- IMNesTea
- SlayerS_BoxeR
- choyafOu
- NsPGenius
- MarineKingPrime.WE
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On March 01 2011 23:24 GobIin wrote:
Balanced is broken, thats why fruitdealer and nestea lost
Fruitdealer is a pretty cool guy, but he's not really a big shot anymore.
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On March 02 2011 07:12 iSometric wrote:
WHo knocked out Boxer?
warp in storms
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I see a lot of people saying "Everybody is about the same skill. People have figured out gimmick styles. etc."
Let's do a thought experiment.
For the sake of this, let's say that any match is 50-50 at it's core. The map changes effectively reset the field to this. The best players have and advantage in terms of pure mechanics, but due to being the best at the older playstyles, they have more to unlearn. In addition, the weaker players weren't likely to beat these players in a straight-up match, and so were forced to experiment with different styles, some of which became weaker on the new maps but some of which became significantly stronger.
With time the better players will have more of an advantage - as everybody gets better, they will get better faster, widening the gap between themselves and everyone else again. But for now, you have a large number of matches that are close enough to a coin flip to not be terribly surprising that heads came up only a few times while tails came up a bunch. The sample size is small enough that while there may appear to be trending, there is no significance.
TLDR:
Now, I'm not saying that some players won't adapt and won't be on the top anymore. I'm not even saying that the games here were played on a lower level than previous games.
All I'm trying to point out is that it would be almost as unlikely for all of the favorites to go through as to be knocked out, at this particular point in time, due to the map and playstyle changes being recent enough to not allow the best players to utilize their advantages.
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Dont get the hate for mkp either. He got the best control,best micro and is the most creative outta there. Yet ppl keep saying hes an one trick pony or abuser. Had he kept on using marines,he woulda gotten into the final again easily. But he tried something new every game and showed a beatiful mech play against kyrix, thats gosuness. Mkp's exit is the biggest upset to me,considering the IM cases when mvp lost to his nerve (and July's moment of golden mouse holder) & sanjwa's gosu play against Nestea.
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I think for me, with the one notable exception of MVP, I think it's a combination of the following:
1) There are a lot of overrated players in Code S and still are. MarineKing for example largely got to two finals on the back of a unique style which no one had figured out how to counter. We saw in both the team league and at the end of GSL4 that when he tries to play standard, really solid players like MVP make him look fairly ordinary. Other players like Boxer, Rainbow, FD and Genius I don't think were (comparitively) anything special at Sc2 to begin with and are largely in Code S as a result of luck and not many good players being around at the time they were successful (GSL season1/Blizzcon).
2) People have by and large figured out the answer to Zerg, and generally speaking Zergs have to rely on an unexpected all in or an opponent playing inferior in order to win. Fruit Dealer, NesTea and Zenio unfortunately just came up against solid opposition that either won straight up or just didn't fall for the all in.
3) The game itself and the way it's designed means that anyone in Code S is easily capable of beating anyone else in Code S. It's much like the way that baseball works in that even the best team in the MLB still has a 40% chance or so of losing a game to the worst team, unlike say, Tennis where your top players like Nadal are almost guaranteed to beat an opponent outside the top 10.
Out of that whole list of players eliminated, the only real shock for me is MVP.
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Only real upsets are MVP, nestea and MKP imo. THe way this is fomulated it seems that regardless of the outcome the OP expects many upsets.. There can only be 2 guys expected to go through in a group.. If others don't make it that's not an upset.
For example its just impossible to have both genius and fruidealer being out be an upset while trickster going through is not... Imo Fruitdealer going out was to be expected (he has never shown to be good vs P) and any of the others going out in that group wouldn't be an upset (as they are very close in skill).
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right now the format is not good but it will be really good once the game develops more. If a player can not win in unexpected matches vs lower level player that they can not prepare for they do not deserve to be considered the best player in the world for a month. Right now the difference between the best in Code S and the worst is not enough. The best can drop a game to one of the lower level players. the format forces people to be able to adapt and think on there feet which i think is a must to be considered the best. If they leave the format alone the truly good players will sort themselves out. it just takes time. Mvp will be back next season don't worry.
my explanation of why their are so many upsets this season is the new maps. all of the players do not have enough experience on the new maps. So a low level player can stumble upon something and get lucky. Also the new maps are not in the map hopper on battle net so they do not get to practice playing vs random players on a random map. when they play on the new maps they are most likely playing vs their own team mates. people on Startale might exploit different things on the new maps than people on oGs. Ideas on the map can't spread as easily. I have not watched the games because i have not purchased a ticket and can't stay up to watch it so this is meerly me speculating.
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i hate to say it for all the zerg QQ'ers out there, but its clear how underpowered zerg is, when a player like nestea plays flawlessly and loses to sanzenith because it takes 800 apm to deal with the death ball and dt warp in a-click. Then MVP lost because july got lucky. Granted, it was partly because july did clever timings but i doubt MVP will ever lose to attacks like that again after this gsl. MVP might have been a little cocky also, running into a baneling ling army with just helions and marines -_- and then of course bo1 can lead to upsets...
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United States7483 Posts
i hate to say it for all the zerg QQ'ers out there, but its clear how underpowered zerg is, when a player like nestea plays flawlessly and loses to sanzenith because it takes 800 apm to deal with the death ball and dt warp in a-click. Then MVP lost because july got lucky. Granted, it was partly because july did clever timings but i doubt MVP will ever lose to attacks like that again after this gsl. MVP might have been a little cocky also, running into a baneling ling army with just helions and marines -_- and then of course bo1 can lead to upsets...
This is doing sanszenith a huge disservice, the man played spectacularly well. Yeah, zerg is underpowered, but don't blame the loss on imbalance, sanszenith is a beast.
anyway....
This is Jinro's GSL! JINRO HWAITING!
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On March 02 2011 04:14 kickinhead wrote:
I think the fact that older players underperform and some new players have their time to shine is also because of balance-reasons and of course the BO1-System.
It's pretty obvious that players like Nestea, Zenio and Fruitdealer have huge Problems as Zerg now and that extremely good players like July (won with 2 cheeses in a row) and the player with probably the most games (Check.Prime) just barely made it out of the first round.
It's also pretty obvious that none of those new talents are Zerg, which is pretty sad IMHO.
its pretty much zerg qq. but meh. that pretty much expresses the aggravation. everyone knows it exists but the more they say it the more its considered bitching and whining and moaning.
truth is they never fully compensated after making roach 2 supply.
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Nestea played flawlessly against San? Did you even watch the game? San played the game of his life and nestea made several big mistakes that let San pull out the win, and against Ensnare Nestea looked terrible, making huge mistakes all over the place. There hasn't been one zerg this season of GSL that has been knocked out while being the better player in game.
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Only shocked at the departure of MVP, Nestea and partly MKP. Players like FD, Boxer and company have been living off their fame from the past and doesn't surprise me that they had an early exit. When MVP lost you can definitely see how shocked and speechless Tastosis were, it's like they saw a ghost.
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Only 3 of 8 Quarterfinalists, only 1 of the Semifinalists, and neither finalist made it out of the Ro32
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lol what are you smoking... ^^
Haha. Idk. But if you look at the list of survived players, Jinro isn't bolded o.o
Btw, it was MKP that was playing against kyrix, not Mvp lol.
Ahh. I meant MKP Thanks.
Edit: Oh yeah, also happy that TheWind made it through. I'm pretty glad about this season. A lot of good players I like got knocked out (BOXER NOO) but there are also many other favorites I have that have made it through. Which is cool cus they have less competition now that most of the top players have been eliminated xD
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On March 02 2011 09:06 Kazzabiss wrote:
Only 3 of 8 Quarterfinalists, only 1 of the Semifinalists, and neither finalist made it out of the Ro32
MC made it out?
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In my opinion the group system - while very entertaining - is not a good one. The better player is less likely to advance than in a best-off system.
One flaw is the unbalanced grouping (which got chosen by the players on top of it!) where some players have to prepare for 1 or 2 matchups while others in the group for 2, respectively 3 matchups, this makes it a harder for some.
At least up and down matches are Bo3 again.
I would favor a Bo5 system throughout the whole of code S with semis and finals Bo7, that way the better player will win and gimmicky players are less likely to get through, unless they are really good at it.
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On March 02 2011 09:12 Redneck! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 09:06 Kazzabiss wrote:
Only 3 of 8 Quarterfinalists, only 1 of the Semifinalists, and neither finalist made it out of the Ro32 MC made it out?
I think he was going on only the non-open GSL seasons.
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Others have mentioned this, but I have to agree: the quality of games this season is much, much better. Maybe the people are just better, maybe its the new map pool, maybe its both, but you see a lot more macro games and a lot less cheese.
You still see one base pushes and all-ins, which is good, because they have their place in competitive play to punish a greedy or unprepared player. But season 3 where almost every game was an all-in sucked.
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On March 02 2011 09:12 Redneck! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 09:06 Kazzabiss wrote:
Only 3 of 8 Quarterfinalists, only 1 of the Semifinalists, and neither finalist made it out of the Ro32 MC made it out?
From last season.
My thoughts:
Group A: Group of death, I think the ONLY surprising outcome would have been July+Hyperdub advance. July advancing instead of MVP isn't that surprising, since MC was in the group and July's ZvT is his best matchup. Weakest player was eliminated. With two champions and a golden mouse winner also in the group, any of them being knocked out is shocking, but it's not an "upset" if one strong player beats another strong player. (you can say whatever you want about July not being "strong" in SC2 but July is a beast)
Group B: Nothing surprising here. Zenio went out, so what? He played brilliantly against Byun, but SOMEONE had to be eliminated. Byun played more brilliantly. You also can't count out Clide, he's a beast. I would argue that the weakest player here was ultimately eliminated.
Group C: Rainbow sucks. I don't see how Check going through instead of Rainbow is a shock.
Group D: TOP losing is somewhat surprising, but you can't underestimate Hongun. Hongun can play very weird games (and surprising games at that). He had a really impressive season 1 run (if you don't consider season 1, why consider Fruitdealer's loss as an upset?) and went on to play rather well in season 3 as well. He also had nothing to practice but PvT, so he had a clear advantage preparation-wise going in.
Group E: This is the only group that, IMO, was truly shocking. SanZenith over Nestea, I don't know if any sane person would have ever predicted that. Even if you call that a fluke, San went on to 3-0 his group. Really impressive. Boxer losing wasn't that much of a shock, he hasn't done anything significant since his season 2 debut. His TvZ is still trash, and his other matchups are slipping too. I think right now he lacks confidence and strong practice partners. Ensnare moving on instead of Nestea was fairly surprising, too.
Group F: Nothing shocking here. I don't understand how you can consider TheWind moving on "surprising" if you don't consider either of the two players who dropped to Up+Down "surprising" either. In order it to be surprising, it HAS to be surprising both ways: one player who is expected to move on should move down, and one player who is expected to move down should move up. This, IMO, can only truly be seen with Group E (and possibly Group H)
Group G: Nothing particularly surprising here, again. What have Genius or Fruitdealer done recently? Fruitdealer has demonstrated since winning season 1 that he has a huge tendency to all-in, or respond to any unorthodox situation with some sort of haphazard aggression. He hasn't played well since season 1. This is not a surprise.
As for Genius, that's not too much of a shock either. He's never been able to show the results to match his talk.
Anypro is somewhat unknown, but the word around the scene right now is that he's pretty beastly.
Group H: I don't understand how you can consider Kyrix moving on to be a "surprise." He played one of the best ZvTs ever against MKP in what can be considered a series that strongly redefined the matchup. Once again, among four good players, two have to lose. What's so hard to understand about this?
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^Nice write-up with some very nice thoughts.
Although the finals are pretty much a tossup right now after all these upsets, I would really like to see NaDa vs JulyZerg as this season's finalists.
Think about it. It would be a repeat of the 2004-2005 IOPS OSL. Two golden mouse winners. Two former Brood War champions once again duking it out to see who is the best retired bonjwa. I would be surprised to see the stadium less than packed with BW fans and SC2 fans alike. It would be an epic end to this very confusing season.
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On March 02 2011 03:21 Gaius Baltar wrote:
To be frank, I'm very disappointed with GSL 5 so far. It's not that I don't like upsets, just that so many of these games have been just that--disappointing. For example:
--You get a player like Ret, fresh from a win at Assembly, show some extremely high level play in his round of 32 in Code A but get 2-0'd. Lot's of people think he might leave Korea now.
--The next day you get a player like Tester, who hasn't impressed anybody since beta, cruise through to the round of 16 of Code S in two quick games with uninspiring 1 base play. He'll be sticking around for another two seasons at the very least.
In theory, the up and down system for Code S and Code A should allow the best players to rise to the top. I don't see it happening like that in practice. Code S seems to be stagnating with about half its number made up of players who were at the top of the game at release but are no longer impressive, while many of the best players in the world do not even qualify for Code A (Bomber, for example) or are knocked out in the first round (Ret, Ace, Squirtle).
Not that Ret shouldn't have lost, I think his opponent MMA was very good. It just seems to me that a match at the skill level of Ret-MMA would be more fitting in Code S. Instead Code S still has players like Choya and TheWind, who are... decent, I guess?
I do not think the GSL format is necessarily fundamentally broken, I just think if the cards keep falling the way they have been, we won't see a Code S full of the best players in Korea anytime soon.
You may disagree with my assessment, based on your judgments of individual players, but give it a few seasons. In half a year if we still see players 1-basing their way through Code S while better players flounder in Code A, I think most of us will have lost interest by then.
What I would really like to see is a more robust team league, which guarantees you get to see the best players in action all time. GSTL February was a treat (putting such stars as Squirtle in the limelight), but it was far too short. Just one week of single elimination team matches is not enough. I would like to see something like proleague or the Gosu Coaching Team League in GSL sooner rather than later, where all the teams play all the other teams.
I really dont see the problem, especially for code a as the format is best of 3's i understand you are dissapointed because some of the best players in your eyes lost. The thing is if your in the gsl you are more than likely practicing reallly really hard so some of these players that were unexpected to do well probably just buckled down and had a ridiculous practice regiment for the past month, i honestly think that some of these code s and code a players that did well in gstl let it get to their heads. Squirtle beat MVP probably thought he was invincible let it get to his head and either didnt practice as much as he should or didnt play safe enough builds. Same goes for other players I think its great that some of these lesser known players are showing the top players that they are not unbeatable its going to make the nestea's and mvp's of code s practice alot harder instead of just thinking they are unstoppable im sure MVP and nestea are practicing much harder now then they were before the round of 32.
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The only true upsets were MVP, MKP, and Nestea. No one really expected those 3 to get knocked out this early. The other players it was definitely possible.
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On March 02 2011 09:55 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 03:21 Gaius Baltar wrote:
To be frank, I'm very disappointed with GSL 5 so far. It's not that I don't like upsets, just that so many of these games have been just that--disappointing. For example:
--You get a player like Ret, fresh from a win at Assembly, show some extremely high level play in his round of 32 in Code A but get 2-0'd. Lot's of people think he might leave Korea now.
--The next day you get a player like Tester, who hasn't impressed anybody since beta, cruise through to the round of 16 of Code S in two quick games with uninspiring 1 base play. He'll be sticking around for another two seasons at the very least.
In theory, the up and down system for Code S and Code A should allow the best players to rise to the top. I don't see it happening like that in practice. Code S seems to be stagnating with about half its number made up of players who were at the top of the game at release but are no longer impressive, while many of the best players in the world do not even qualify for Code A (Bomber, for example) or are knocked out in the first round (Ret, Ace, Squirtle).
Not that Ret shouldn't have lost, I think his opponent MMA was very good. It just seems to me that a match at the skill level of Ret-MMA would be more fitting in Code S. Instead Code S still has players like Choya and TheWind, who are... decent, I guess?
I do not think the GSL format is necessarily fundamentally broken, I just think if the cards keep falling the way they have been, we won't see a Code S full of the best players in Korea anytime soon.
You may disagree with my assessment, based on your judgments of individual players, but give it a few seasons. In half a year if we still see players 1-basing their way through Code S while better players flounder in Code A, I think most of us will have lost interest by then.
What I would really like to see is a more robust team league, which guarantees you get to see the best players in action all time. GSTL February was a treat (putting such stars as Squirtle in the limelight), but it was far too short. Just one week of single elimination team matches is not enough. I would like to see something like proleague or the Gosu Coaching Team League in GSL sooner rather than later, where all the teams play all the other teams. I really dont see the problem, especially for code a as the format is best of 3's i understand you are dissapointed because some of the best players in your eyes lost. The thing is if your in the gsl you are more than likely practicing reallly really hard so some of these players that were unexpected to do well probably just buckled down and had a ridiculous practice regiment for the past month, i honestly think that some of these code s and code a players that did well in gstl let it get to their heads. Squirtle beat MVP probably thought he was invincible let it get to his head and either didnt practice as much as he should or didnt play safe enough builds. Same goes for other players I think its great that some of these lesser known players are showing the top players that they are not unbeatable its going to make the nestea's and mvp's of code s practice alot harder instead of just thinking they are unstoppable im sure MVP and nestea are practicing much harder now then they were before the round of 32.
The system of moving up and down between code A and code S is just bad.
Overall the system is too protective imo, it is too hard to get into code S as it takes too much time. For example if you are in a position like Ret is now he can't get into code S before season 7. Having to wait that long at a shot is just too long.
Also the fact that the people who play up and down matches from code S is a bit too random, instead of the people losing in the first round it should be some kind of score system where achievements in the previous GSL should also count. It is silly that a finalist or winner can be forced into a up and down match after losing in the group next time, in the same idea it is silly that getting through 1 group immediately puts you safe. Because great players can be put into it the up and down matches it gets even harder to get into code S as you might have to beat nestea, MVP or whatever to do so...
I think code A should be completely reworked so that it is some kind of competition with more matches, just not televizing them all (code A isn't interesting so much anyway). Losing round 1 of code A is just so demotivating as it takes too long before you get another shot at it.
Code S plays should just get points for the round they reach in a tournament and then the players forced to play a up and down match should just be the bottom 12 or 16 in score. The score should be compromised of the last 3 GSL's imo where the most recent ones count heavier.
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I think the TL writing team didn't realise just how prophetic it would be when they named the preview for this season's GSL "March Madness". I'm pretty much prepared for anything at this point, nothing is guaranteed in Code S. If there's one thing the GSL keeps reminding us of, it's to expect the unexpected...
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If Jinro wins would he be the first foreigner to win GSL?
Would be really cool if Jinro could take out the season. Go go Jinro!
Anywho, IMO code A was awesome this season, some really strong players, and I think some of them are better than some of the code S guys to be honest.
I just can't wait to see more foreigners tearing up the Code A brackets. Need to get some more of the Europeans into the GSL. Would be cool to see some mouz guys or something in GSL.
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not sure why there's a thread about this lol, it's really just variance
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Honestly I believe MVP and Nestea and MKP are the only ones who really got unlucky or eliminated cuz of cheese or under preforming. FD, Rainbow, Boxer and Genius were good for a season or 2 but they have fallen get over it. The rest of them for the most part are Ro32 players maybe 16 but its a one round difference so they are where they belong.
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The world doesn't make sense to me anymore.
MKP
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On March 02 2011 10:29 Ridiculisk wrote:
If Jinro wins would he be the first foreigner to win GSL?
Yeah, and I´m pretty sure the first foreigner to win a Starcraft tournament of this magnitude in Korea, financially for sure and I think skill wise as well. Feel free to correct me if I´m wrong people.
Personally though, I think some of the guys are being underrated. No, I didn´t predict SanZenith, but July is wicked sick HongUn is pretty damn good as well, same with Kyrix. I think Kyrix might´ve been the most underrated of them all, which I find Kind of surprising to be honest, as he´s shown a ton of great games won that allstar tournament or whatever it was, and is one of the pros that other pros had to adapt to in order to beat. He´s wicked sick.
Other than that, just bad luck on some guys part. I still think that Nestea, MVP and MKP are all amazing... I´m not so sure about Fruitdealer though.
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The round of 32 has made it Jinro's season to lose.
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First to hear here, its GSL winner is going to be Julyzerg or Jinro. July has been impressing me so much with his unpredictable play. He makes zerg fun to play kind of how Fruitdealer did in season 1. gogo fighting
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im thinking first 2 time winner this season
Go MC!
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On March 02 2011 09:44 wherebugsgo wrote:
Group G: Nothing particularly surprising here, again. What have Genius or Fruitdealer done recently? Fruitdealer has demonstrated since winning season 1 that he has a huge tendency to all-in, or respond to any unorthodox situation with some sort of haphazard aggression. He hasn't played well since season 1. This is not a surprise.
As for Genius, that's not too much of a shock either. He's never been able to show the results to match his talk.
Anypro is somewhat unknown, but the word around the scene right now is that he's pretty beastly.
Group H: I don't understand how you can consider Kyrix moving on to be a "surprise." He played one of the best ZvTs ever against MKP in what can be considered a series that strongly redefined the matchup. Once again, among four good players, two have to lose. What's so hard to understand about this?
I agree with your thoughts on most of Group A-F, but i Group G I was really thinking Genius would move on and I would consider it an upset. FD I didn't think had a chance given he has to face 3 Toss, but Genius is a decent player and up until today, Anypro had only beaten ONE person in his past 12 matches and that was Moon, anypro was on a 10 game losing streak before that...Anypro hasn't won a set essentially since GSL Season ONE...and though it's my opinion, I believe it was highly speculated by a lot of TL that the prime team was having fun in their GSL4 interviews when they ALL said "I fear anypro the most"...cause let's be serious, that's like someone saying "I fear SanZenith" pre-present day, there's a reason he was chosen by Tester to be in his group after all.
as for MKP I guess people are upset that he lost to sC most of all.
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I don't find sanZenith as an upset
just an opportunity to rise and show what he is capable of
for a casual gamer as he states he is he is doing amazingly well and i looking forward his games
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Yeah, wow... finally watched the G group and i have to say I feel bad for FD. He was actually playing really well those games and just got caught in a bad angle in the 3rd game. It's the same thing that happens to every Zerg from time-to-time, but it was just rough to watch, FD really couldn't do anything to stop anypro from walking right over him...
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On March 02 2011 11:35 PartyBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 09:44 wherebugsgo wrote:
Group G: Nothing particularly surprising here, again. What have Genius or Fruitdealer done recently? Fruitdealer has demonstrated since winning season 1 that he has a huge tendency to all-in, or respond to any unorthodox situation with some sort of haphazard aggression. He hasn't played well since season 1. This is not a surprise.
As for Genius, that's not too much of a shock either. He's never been able to show the results to match his talk.
Anypro is somewhat unknown, but the word around the scene right now is that he's pretty beastly.
Group H: I don't understand how you can consider Kyrix moving on to be a "surprise." He played one of the best ZvTs ever against MKP in what can be considered a series that strongly redefined the matchup. Once again, among four good players, two have to lose. What's so hard to understand about this? I agree with your thoughts on most of Group A-F, but i Group G I was really thinking Genius would move on and I would consider it an upset. FD I didn't think had a chance given he has to face 3 Toss, but Genius is a decent player and up until today, Anypro had only beaten ONE person in his past 12 matches and that was Moon, anypro was on a 10 game losing streak before that...Anypro hasn't won a set essentially since GSL Season ONE...and though it's my opinion, I believe it was highly speculated by a lot of TL that the prime team was having fun in their GSL4 interviews when they ALL said "I fear anypro the most"...cause let's be serious, that's like someone saying "I fear SanZenith" pre-present day, there's a reason he was chosen by Tester to be in his group after all. as for MKP I guess people are upset that he lost to sC most of all.
For MKP:
The OP bolded Kyrix's advance (suggesting he thought it was a surprise)
Also, for SC: IMO MKP's TvT has never been good. I don't believe he should have ever taken a game off either Nada or Jinro, but both players gifted MKP series through their own mistakes.
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On March 02 2011 13:27 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 11:35 PartyBiscuit wrote:On March 02 2011 09:44 wherebugsgo wrote:
Group G: Nothing particularly surprising here, again. What have Genius or Fruitdealer done recently? Fruitdealer has demonstrated since winning season 1 that he has a huge tendency to all-in, or respond to any unorthodox situation with some sort of haphazard aggression. He hasn't played well since season 1. This is not a surprise.
As for Genius, that's not too much of a shock either. He's never been able to show the results to match his talk.
Anypro is somewhat unknown, but the word around the scene right now is that he's pretty beastly.
Group H: I don't understand how you can consider Kyrix moving on to be a "surprise." He played one of the best ZvTs ever against MKP in what can be considered a series that strongly redefined the matchup. Once again, among four good players, two have to lose. What's so hard to understand about this? I agree with your thoughts on most of Group A-F, but i Group G I was really thinking Genius would move on and I would consider it an upset. FD I didn't think had a chance given he has to face 3 Toss, but Genius is a decent player and up until today, Anypro had only beaten ONE person in his past 12 matches and that was Moon, anypro was on a 10 game losing streak before that...Anypro hasn't won a set essentially since GSL Season ONE...and though it's my opinion, I believe it was highly speculated by a lot of TL that the prime team was having fun in their GSL4 interviews when they ALL said "I fear anypro the most"...cause let's be serious, that's like someone saying "I fear SanZenith" pre-present day, there's a reason he was chosen by Tester to be in his group after all. as for MKP I guess people are upset that he lost to sC most of all. For MKP: The OP bolded Kyrix's advance (suggesting he thought it was a surprise) Also, for SC: IMO MKP's TvT has never been good. I don't believe he should have ever taken a game off either Nada or Jinro, but both players gifted MKP series through their own mistakes.
What's with all the MKP hate in this thread? He dominated Kyrix with a completely new-for-him and very rare style (5+ factory mech) and made a couple bad decisions in the other games. He is clearly one of the most talented players with top-notch macro and micro. He is also arguably the most consistent GSL player since he arrived on the scene in GSL2 (two finals and a RO8). He all-killed Protoss in the Gisado KOTH event and made it to the finals of the All-Stars tournament. If you don't consider the fact that he hasn't won a GSL tournament, the guy is arguably the most successful SC2 player to date. You can't say he didn't deserve to beat Nada and Jinro - he 3-1'd them both by showing unbelievably good judgment and decision making, and those guys are seriously awesome players.
He's also one of the most exciting players to watch as a spectator since he prefers (or at least has preferred in the past) to use very mobile, harass-based strategies which rely on heavy micro to be successful.
I know it's weird to have all these top player knocked out now but let's not start saying they weren't that great to begin with.
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The round of 32 has made it Jinro's season to lose.
I think you mean win? Correct me if I'm wrong ^_^
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it's the extreme randomness of group play. any time i see these tournaments try it for SC, some ridiculous shit happens. actionjesuz anyone? i love this game and BW too but never have i seen competitive games that had such a likelihood for a worse player to beat a better one if only they didn't have to play too many times. it's practically a sin to make a huge tournament have Bo1 group play imo.
it honestly does not surprise me at all, i mean yea, when you look at just the names of the people who got through and who didn't, it seems unbelievable. but then if you consider the fact that as long as your mechanics aren't vastly inferior to someone else's, you can cheese them out of a game, and then consider the fact that you only need to play 2 players 1 time each to advance, it makes it a lot more possible than you'd think.
if they had it like they used to, with a round of 32 of 4-5 Bo3 matches per day, i guarantee you we would see more of the people you'd expect to advance do so.
the only real surprise to me here is sanzenith, who straight up outplayed everyone in his group. that straight up blew my mind. everything else i chalk up to a series of unfortunate mistakes and the unforgiving nature of Bo1
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SanZenith is the new overlord. All hail San
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Out of the people still reminaing I would put my money on Jinro or NaDa. Neither of them have very stylistic play, but extremely solid " i make more units than you" play
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On March 03 2011 05:52 Herculix wrote:
it's the extreme randomness of group play. any time i see these tournaments try it for SC, some ridiculous shit happens. actionjesuz anyone? i love this game and BW too but never have i seen competitive games that had such a likelihood for a worse player to beat a better one if only they didn't have to play too many times. it's practically a sin to make a huge tournament have Bo1 group play imo.
This. I really miss the old bo3's, code A is more entertaining in this regard.
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the power of artosis's words.
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EPT
