On March 15 2011 02:25 Alphasquad wrote: this strategy is soo much better than everything else that has been tried up to now
even when its not that good on typhon peaks its chances are still better than roach/hydra/corruptor and it offers soo much flexibility for everything and you can combine it with everything on tier2 or even go tier3
today i played zvp on shattered temple which is obviously a promising map for but i even won when my drop failed miserably but it let me safely tech to corruptors and broodlords from 3 bases - its not only the strategy itself but also the flexibility it offers to you
you just have to imainge how many resources roaches, hydras and corruptors are eating and its still not able to beat protoss army and you cant even move out before you have corruptors because roaches and hydras just loose even with much higher food cap
now you do more or at least the same damage for much lower resources
Roaches are also very expensive supply wise. This build is very fun to play.
I'm just curious how you hold a 4-gate, do you just drop down the roach warren/baneling nest and put back on gas? I find that if they just go for a heavy zealot 4-gate it's actually quite hard to hold.
ling/bling can beat 4 gates quite fine - if its zealot heavy your blings are even better because toss can spam forcefields but they dont have the ranged firepower to effectively kill them
i find this way better than ling/roach because its so supply friendly and you can really mass and remass quickly
It's just that when they hit, I usually haven't put down a baneling nest, or even put my drones back on gas, and just speedling spinecrawler can't hold off 4-gate on a lot of maps.
If I think it's a 4 gate I stay on 2 hatch, get 3 drones back on gas, and defend with ling/bling. I usually still make ~2 spines as well. Pure ling mass used to be my preferred way to deal with 4 gate, but without banelings the zealot/stalker style crushed it. Add in banelings and it's much easier to defend, just make sure you micro the banes well so they aren't blowing up on the stalkers.
Also, me and Xog were really proud last night while watching Idra's stream and seeing him completely destroy a 3 base Protoss using ling/bling/corruptor. I think in the hands of a high level player with perfect mechanics this style is just as effective, if not more so, than roach/hydra/corruptor. He didn't even need to utilize baneling drops, which make this style infinitely more potent.
BloomFilter: Thanks! But now I almost feel obligated to update the replay pack with better games
On March 17 2011 03:02 terr13 wrote: It's just that when they hit, I usually haven't put down a baneling nest, or even put my drones back on gas, and just speedling spinecrawler can't hold off 4-gate on a lot of maps.
This really comes down to scouting then. You need to recognize the rush and put drones back on gas as soon as possible in order to get your baneling nest up as fast as possible. Obviously stop drone production and begin ling production. If you haven't scouted his rush by 5:00 it may be too late, and by 6:00 you're probably already dead. If it's a 2 gas 4 gate with zealot/stalker/sentry you have more time and will have your 3rd hatch in production by the time he hits, but also can throw down a lot more spines and just swarm him with zerglings by that point.
Hey Aquanda, I just uploaded the casts from the GameClucks Seattle SC2 Lan from last month to Youtube (I was really lazy), but you could probably use the following videos as demonstration:
Are you going to the one next week? If you haven't seen the thread, you need to search for "GameClucks". =]
Just so you know this build was popular in Korean servers since December, I've encountered numerous of Korean diamond players back then and masters nowadays do this. Mostly ling/bane/corruptor ...
can u make a post wich shows thebuild order after u refined it cus im trying to make a build of this instead of going for a feeling game and thats realy hard for me (:
Hi Aquanda, and thank you so much for this build/style that has increased my ZvP tremendously !
I was wondering : it may be a little early to give the community a feedback about this, but to what extend the Infestor buff has changed your playstyle?
Do you rely more heavily on infestor mid-game, and thus delaying the hive transition, in order to trade a 140-ish food army of the protoss in your favor?
Do you still make as much infestors as he has collosi, since you rely mainly on Neural Parasite?
alonth: I am changing my "build order" daily. The framework for the build is similar to almost every other build order out there, but here it is: 15 Pool 15 Gas 17 OL (Drones off @ 100) 4 Lings Queen Drone until 21 supply 2nd Queen 23 OL Zergling Speed (3 Drones back on gas) Drone constantly, ensuring you're staying on top of your OL timings from here on out Evo @ ~30 gas Begin +1 Melee Baneling Nest with next 50 gas
From here on out you really need to just respond to what the Protoss is doing. I've started to work in an early Roach Warren in order to punish the Zealot/Sentry pushes that I've been seeing. I feel like Ling/Bane/Roach in the mid game is the future of this style, but I'm still experimenting.
Ahelvin: I have been using the Infestor a lot more, but not for NP. I feel like relying too much on it can easily kill you (as well as bad positioning) and rather use the Infestor to soften up Sentry/Stalker balls as I bane drop them. The amount of AoE damage banedrop+infestor can dish out is simply insane.
You can rely simply on ling/bane/roach to counter Collosus until the count gets to ~4+, at which point you need to have Corruptors (or NP I suppose) to deal with them.
I suppose to summarize the 1.3 changes to my style, I actually use Infestors as a core asset to my army, instead of a "well I guess I could make a few" sort of thing.
Good work, aquanda - cool to see that ling/bling/roach styles are being considered and developed...I've used ling/bling openers myself a few games and was surprised at how badly they trash early P pressure (as long as you dodge FF's and stalker micro). It's amazing how many P units a bling ball can take out - they're so much more larva efficient than roach/hydra it's hard to believe.
Personally I think ling/bling/corruptor has way more potential than roach/hydra/corruptor - lings and blings can actually kill more P units in less time than roach/hydra, which is funny because lings and blings are cheaper by a long shot. Plus, if you have the APM, you can drop blings in your opponent's mineral lines/on top of their P death ball...I can't think of any easier way to make your opponent's workers disappear in less than 2 seconds.
On top of all that, a critical mass of blings will trash almost any unit combination in the game (barring excessive splash damage - siege tanks, psi storm, etc.). This means that if you have 70+ blings, you can literally 1-A right through the P army (once his FF's are used up) and laugh.
I really wish pros adopted this build so we could see what it's really made of. A lot of zergs seem to be having trouble with protoss but they usually stick to very solid builds. I'd like to see what Morrow or Sen could do with this.
ETA: Any chance you can upload post 1.3 replays aquanda? I'd like to see how you're mixing in drops/infestors/banes together. I mean, you get drops asap but what's your general plan for the midgame? Once they get 2+ collosus do you make infestors to deal with them, corrupters, or do you make them and try to delay till you have ultras/BLs? What do you do versus collosus VR?
I had my first game of the day against jemag in a practice session. It was a long macro oriented game with him opening forge FE and me opening 15 hatch. ZvP (Z)tQaquanda vs (P)jemag on TA
On March 28 2011 17:30 aquanda wrote: alonth: I am changing my "build order" daily. The framework for the build is similar to almost every other build order out there, but here it is: 15 Pool 15 Gas 17 OL (Drones off @ 100) 4 Lings Queen Drone until 21 supply 2nd Queen 23 OL Zergling Speed (3 Drones back on gas) Drone constantly, ensuring you're staying on top of your OL timings from here on out Evo @ ~30 gas Begin +1 Melee Baneling Nest with next 50 gas
EPT
