On February 26 2011 17:02 WhiteLight wrote: Did everyone forget the the HT in bw? They did not get the ability to start with storm either and they had to take 50s to build like all the other races instead of being able to just be instantly warped in anywhere like they are now. Yet dispite this they were still used in ALL 3 MUs and played critical roles. Now Does the amulet nerf make HT useless now? No! Does it make them harder to use? Yes! The nerf now mean that you have to plan when you want to warp in your HT and when you want to attack.
Actually, I think WhiteLight has an incredibly good point. Of course, BW didn't have Colossi, so the question will be "Are High Templar worth the difficulty?". After all, in Brood War, if you wanted AoE damage, as far as I know, you were stuck with High Templar or Reavers. There was literally nothing else, and High Templar were certainly the better option.
Colossi on the other hand do the role of the High Templar very well, and they are undoubtedly easier to use. If High Templar and Colossi are even in power, I will always go Colossi. Always. If the enemy gets a dozen Corruptors or Vikings, I would tech switch, but until I have to, Colossi all the way. They're just easier to use.
My two cents.
I don't think it is a good point. First of all it is a different game. Second, the KA increased maximum energy and starting energy by 12 (so you had to wait half the time for storm) in sc1. Third, the storm in sc1 is stronger than in sc2.
Protoss are now the 'weakest' race if this change is implemented.
We have NOTHING against MM late game.
2 Thor + 250mm cannon + 8scvs + 10 marine 6 minute push is unstoppable RIGHT NOW as protoss, just imagine in that patch.
Screw playing a different race, I'm just not going to play this game seriously. This is an absolute joke of a game.
Marine/Marauder counter was the high templar. Ghost placement had a HUGE hand in high templars (considering emp = 75 energy, they have a +25 energy upgrade), what the fuck does protoss do?
Vikings outrange stalkers and colossus, good luck ff wall. Terran just run away. This is sucha stupid game to even play now.
On February 26 2011 17:08 Grimjim wrote: The Zerg nerfs are ridiculous for a race already struggling against both Terran and Protoss. None of these buffs help late-game, which is where Zerg suffers the most. Even when completely avoiding damage from harass, Zerg only moves into the late-game on even footing with an expanding Terran or Protoss.
Changes need to be made to the Zerg army strength. That's the only way ZvP and ZvT will become fully balanced.
What nerfs? Zerg got a huge buff to their main spell caster. Infestor is now like a high templar with stun.
Yeah, looks like a huge buff. Its like a high templar with stun, except you can dodge 100% of its effects. Now its dodgeable by blink which in the previous patch they made impossible. Now they made it possible again. Let's all be happy.
The foolishness/schizophrenia of these design choices is nothing short of astounding.
This reminds me of the reaver attack dodge.
In reality though if the toss uses it's blink there would be an easier time for zerg to surround with lings.
It's not going to be blink stalkers vs just infestors
On February 26 2011 17:08 Grimjim wrote: The Zerg nerfs are ridiculous for a race already struggling against both Terran and Protoss. None of these buffs help late-game, which is where Zerg suffers the most. Even when completely avoiding damage from harass, Zerg only moves into the late-game on even footing with an expanding Terran or Protoss.
Changes need to be made to the Zerg army strength. That's the only way ZvP and ZvT will become fully balanced.
What nerfs? Zerg got a huge buff to their main spell caster. Infestor is now like a high templar with stun.
Yeah, looks like a huge buff. Its like a high templar with stun, except you can dodge 100% of its effects. Now its dodgeable by blink which in the previous patch they made impossible. Now they made it possible again. Let's all be happy.
The foolishness/schizophrenia of these design choices is nothing short of astounding.
the more i see blizzard 'balancing' things that are unneeded, the more i get the feeling that blizz employees only play team games.
On February 26 2011 17:23 goodvibes wrote: Protoss are now the 'weakest' race if this change is implemented.
We have NOTHING against MM late game.
2 Thor + 250mm cannon + 8scvs + 10 marine 6 minute push is unstoppable RIGHT NOW as protoss, just imagine in that patch.
Screw playing a different race, I'm just not going to play this game seriously. This is an absolute joke of a game.
Marine/Marauder counter was the high templar. Ghost placement had a HUGE hand in high templars (considering emp = 75 energy, they have a +25 energy upgrade), what the fuck does protoss do?
Vikings outrange stalkers and colossus, good luck ff wall. Terran just run away. This is sucha stupid game to even play now.
excuse me.... but last i checked NONE of the nerfs to protoss will be increasing the difficulty to stop a 6 minute all in.
On February 26 2011 17:08 Grimjim wrote: The Zerg nerfs are ridiculous for a race already struggling against both Terran and Protoss. None of these buffs help late-game, which is where Zerg suffers the most. Even when completely avoiding damage from harass, Zerg only moves into the late-game on even footing with an expanding Terran or Protoss.
Changes need to be made to the Zerg army strength. That's the only way ZvP and ZvT will become fully balanced.
What nerfs? Zerg got a huge buff to their main spell caster. Infestor is now like a high templar with stun.
Yeah, looks like a huge buff. Its like a high templar with stun, except you can dodge 100% of its effects. Now its dodgeable by blink which in the previous patch they made impossible. Now they made it possible again. Let's all be happy.
The foolishness/schizophrenia of these design choices is nothing short of astounding.
This reminds me of the reaver attack dodge.
In reality though if the toss uses it's blink there would be an easier time for zerg to surround with lings.
It's not going to be blink stalkers vs just infestors
Yeah this is very true. I'm still sent reeling by the motivation behind some of these changes however.
On February 26 2011 13:58 PikaXchU wrote: Wait.. If there isn't amulet, how else do we deal with a huge ball of 30 mutalisks?!
by not letting zerg get 30 mutalisk in the first place and using the phoenix buff blizz gave you toss earlier???
lololololol.
There needs to be the ability to respond, not to pre-emptively counter, for a matchup to be balanced.
lolololol
so what have you been doing the whole time the zerg was making those 30 mutalisks? making probes? lololol
Have you ever played Starcraft 2? Zerg can make a decent number of lings and still have mutas out by 9 minutes. What do you do when 7-8 mutas show up to your base and you've got a similar number of stalkers? Mutas are meant to harass. They fly between your main and nat mineral lines, they pick off edge spotter pylons, etc. Your hapless stalkers have to squeeze single file through your ramp choke (which you needed to get to because of speedlings). So, do you:
A) Throw down 1-2 stargate(s) and start building phoenixes 1 by 1 and watch them get picked off, never reaching critical mass because zerg can hatch a bunch of mutas at once, or B) Get blink and cannons to defend, which leaves you the option of getting HT if he keeps going mutas
Does anyone else feel they nerfed the wrong part of the HTs ? What made protoss so strong wasn't so much HTs + Amulet... it was HTs+ Amulet + WARPGATE.
Instead of nerfing the amulet...why not make HTs only trainable from regular gateways ? Also these could be chrono'd out when needed...
Strongly nerfed the high templar, mothership and infestor. Why would they weaken spellcaster play? It's certainly not like those units were overused. Pure colossus play in all three matchups incoming. I do like the longer bunker build time and stim research though.
On February 26 2011 17:23 goodvibes wrote: Protoss are now the 'weakest' race if this change is implemented.
We have NOTHING against MM late game.
2 Thor + 250mm cannon + 8scvs + 10 marine 6 minute push is unstoppable RIGHT NOW as protoss, just imagine in that patch.
Screw playing a different race, I'm just not going to play this game seriously. This is an absolute joke of a game.
Marine/Marauder counter was the high templar. Ghost placement had a HUGE hand in high templars (considering emp = 75 energy, they have a +25 energy upgrade), what the fuck does protoss do?
Vikings outrange stalkers and colossus, good luck ff wall. Terran just run away. This is sucha stupid game to even play now.
excuse me.... but last i checked NONE of the nerfs to protoss will be increasing the difficulty to stop a 6 minute all in.
Actually it should be easier to stop that all-in with the stim timing change.
The only thing the nerf's do to protoss is make their crazy powerful late-game a bit less powerful. Letting a protoss get to 3-4 base meant death like 80% of the time, you couldn't harass them, their army always wins, and you basically had to go in ahead in order to just flood them with sheer units to kill the super efficient AOE.
The templar nerf fixes a few of those problems, now a protoss can't defend anywhere they want instantly, meaning late game harass by zerg or terran is viable. Also protoss can't always have AOE with their army instantly to reinforce, meaning winning battles translates into gaining an advantage, because you know that army won't disappear to storms instantly afterwards.
ALSO, the INFESTOR WAS BUFFED, not nerfed, I have no idea why people don't read carefully enough to see that it was buffed by a large amount even though blizzard made it a missile attack...
It takes 44 ingame seconds to get a storm on a warped in HT? Its great that they're trying to nerf something that was clearly a bit too powerful, but going for 0 second wait time to get storm to 44 seconds is just dumb. That'd be great if the aoe of it was made bigger and the damage smaller or something, but am I really gonna spend 150 gas on a unit thats gotta wait 44 seconds to do a storm that may be dodged VERY easily? The thing making the amulet crazy was that you could cast it the very second HT got warped in. Why not just change the upgrade similar to how it was in BW? It wouldnt be instant, but HT would still be beastly, as they should be, being tier 3. Yes, the mothership is a fat retarded arbiter now, but the archon toilet was clearly imboo. I really hate this change though, because I use the MS a lot in PvZ and PvZ, and im not sure i'll still want to do that seeing as i never actually used recall...
On February 26 2011 17:23 goodvibes wrote: Protoss are now the 'weakest' race if this change is implemented.
We have NOTHING against MM late game.
2 Thor + 250mm cannon + 8scvs + 10 marine 6 minute push is unstoppable RIGHT NOW as protoss, just imagine in that patch.
Screw playing a different race, I'm just not going to play this game seriously. This is an absolute joke of a game.
Marine/Marauder counter was the high templar. Ghost placement had a HUGE hand in high templars (considering emp = 75 energy, they have a +25 energy upgrade), what the fuck does protoss do?
Vikings outrange stalkers and colossus, good luck ff wall. Terran just run away. This is sucha stupid game to even play now.
excuse me.... but last i checked NONE of the nerfs to protoss will be increasing the difficulty to stop a 6 minute all in.
How is this an all-in? 10 marines, 8 scvs and 2 thors is nothing near an all in. 6-9 pool = all in, 2 gate = all in, 2 berracks constant marines = all in.
This is a viable 6 minute push that protoss cannot stop. If you can, please illustrate how. By the time observer gets to their base, from 1gate robo, you see the 1st thor. - I imemdiately chrono immortals and build only zealots.
By the time they knock on my door, I have (3 gates are up by now), I have 7 zealots, 3 immortals and 1 stalker... vs. 2 thors, 250mm nullifies the thors, 10 marines kill the zealots which do nothing. You lose your army they lose 1 thor.
The HT nerf is so horrible Protoss needed them for defending against drops on big maps because of the immobility that protoss has... Now we need to build 32190 cannons at every expansion?!
On February 26 2011 17:30 Dustbunny wrote: Does anyone else feel they nerfed the wrong part of the HTs ? What made protoss so strong wasn't so much HTs + Amulet... it was HTs+ Amulet + WARPGATE.
Instead of nerfing the amulet...why not make HTs only trainable from regular gateways ? Also these could be chrono'd out when needed...
I thought of this too.
I feel like there should be a penalty for warpgate usage vs normal gate ways. Like 3/4 energy with warp in templars vs full energy from normal gateway templars
On February 26 2011 17:30 Dustbunny wrote: Does anyone else feel they nerfed the wrong part of the HTs ? What made protoss so strong wasn't so much HTs + Amulet... it was HTs+ Amulet + WARPGATE.
Instead of nerfing the amulet...why not make HTs only trainable from regular gateways ? Also these could be chrono'd out when needed...
Id be happier to have HTs build out of the Templar Archives like a Collosus out of a Robo if their speed was increased somewhat alot. The problems with HTs is not only that they are too strong on warp-ins but their main negative is that they are too slow to move cross-map and group up when moving due to speed.
I understand the problems they cause when warped in, it is pretty stupid that you can fight off a lost 200v200 supply engagement with 3 warped in templars to finish off a ton of nearly dead bio units - but templars take too long to make storms on their own.
There is a HUGE window when you are stuck on gateway units only when teching to HT + storm + amulet already that can be exploited with game-winning effect. This change only makes that worse
On February 26 2011 17:23 goodvibes wrote: Protoss are now the 'weakest' race if this change is implemented.
We have NOTHING against MM late game.
2 Thor + 250mm cannon + 8scvs + 10 marine 6 minute push is unstoppable RIGHT NOW as protoss, just imagine in that patch.
Screw playing a different race, I'm just not going to play this game seriously. This is an absolute joke of a game.
Marine/Marauder counter was the high templar. Ghost placement had a HUGE hand in high templars (considering emp = 75 energy, they have a +25 energy upgrade), what the fuck does protoss do?
Vikings outrange stalkers and colossus, good luck ff wall. Terran just run away. This is sucha stupid game to even play now.
excuse me.... but last i checked NONE of the nerfs to protoss will be increasing the difficulty to stop a 6 minute all in.
How is this an all-in? 10 marines, 8 scvs and 2 thors is nothing near an all in. 6-9 pool = all in, 2 gate = all in, 2 berracks constant marines = all in.
This is a viable 6 minute push that protoss cannot stop. If you can, please illustrate how. By the time observer gets to their base, from 1gate robo, you see the 1st thor. - I imemdiately chrono immortals and build only zealots.
By the time they knock on my door, I have (3 gates are up by now), I have 7 zealots, 3 immortals and 1 stalker... vs. 2 thors, 250mm nullifies the thors, 10 marines kill the zealots which do nothing. You lose your army they lose 1 thor.
NONE OF THE PATCH CHANGES effects your so-called unstopable build.
The patch changes are for
stim (helps protoss), bunkers (heps protoss), BC (negligible), mothership/ht/zealot charge (negligible early game)
EPT
