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On March 01 2011 00:15 Overpowered wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 23:43 Gunman_csz wrote:On February 28 2011 23:27 GinDo wrote:On February 28 2011 17:41 Shikyo wrote:On February 28 2011 17:35 Lucid90 wrote:On February 28 2011 17:32 Aequos wrote:On February 28 2011 17:28 Lucid90 wrote:On February 28 2011 15:26 Kindred wrote:
There was KA in BW. It increased the starting energy of HT from 50 to 62. Not enough for instant storm but a hell of a lot better than having to wait 50 to 75.
Either way, what is really frustrating is that they decisions Blizzard makes are only making the game more one dimensional but cutting out units. Every Protoss will basically do Colossus now, which is really sad. I wouldnt spend 400/550 to have a unit that rolls its thumbs for 45 second before it can do what I really need it for. I don't think you've ever played BW.... The ammulet in BW increased the maximum energy of templars to 250 from 200, but it didn't increase the starting energy. All templars spawned with 50 energy, regardless if they had the upgrade or not.... As been said before, it increased the maximum energy to 250, but all caster units in BW spawned with 25% of their maximum energy. 25% * 250 = ~62 energy. I personally think that a reduction to the energy of all +starting energy upgrades to +20 instead of +25 would've made no difference to anyone but Protoss, but would've made the 'instant-warp-in-storm' less of an issue. As it is, I shall be building only the hated colossi. But it doesn't, I just oppened but sc and checked, all templars spawn with 50 energy regardless of the upgrade or not, this 25% of the energy spawned is not true. Go play BW and check for your self What? I just tested it and it was 62. Personally i think they should do this to all spell casters. It not only makes big spells like Yamato and HSM more viable. But is a balencer for Storm, EMP, and FG. I also personally believe that FG and EMP should be researched.Ammy removal is to much. They should just do it BW style. More energy to be banked and a little more starting energy. Seriously? I also personally believe Forcefield and Feedback should be researched, ROFL Research Feedback and Forcefield? U mad? Try to hold of as Toss some 2rax/scv/marine all ins without blocking ramp with FF. Impossible. FF is only thing keeping Protoss alive until splash damage. And Feedback - why? It is not gamechanging spell, so why?
He wasn't suggesting that if you read what he was responding to. He basically was saying that making FG and emp researchable would be as stupid as making forcefield and feedback researchable.
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my $0.02 - as a toss, i'm fine without amulet, i thought it was maybe too powerful (esp against zerg)
but i've been getting killed by good ghost play from decent terran players. players have been going mass marauder / ghost and i haven't figured out how to beat this yet. amulet only sorta helped anyway, because losing the first battle to emp usually lost me the game.
so, like some people have already said, i'd like to see ghosts changed a little bit.
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On March 01 2011 00:13 ShadowLegacy wrote:
While agree that something needed to be changed concerning warp in storms I think they went a little over-kill.
Few things that people need to take into account:
Yes warp in storms needed a nerf. The problem is and always will be the relationship with EMP.
Getting rid of the warp-in storms while doing nothing to EMP breaks the relationship between the two and renders HT tech useless. Who in their right mind will tech to something that can be completed countered by 2-3 good emps ?
- Either they need to bring back the BW amulet, or re-work EMP.
Can't agree, even against a Zerg a Warp HT -> storm is very powerfull.
The amulet is obviously very strong, and needed a little balance. I also find stupid the idea of removing the upgrade completely.
Nerf a little bit the upgrade could have been enough. Decreased the Amulet from +25 to +15 for exemple.
Sometimes I don't really get their balancing ideas.. reaper for exemple is now useless. Instead of increase the research time, they nerf it by requiring the factory..
There is another big problem that is still not resolved.. the ForceFields.. ZvP is a nightmare because of the FF.. Hope they will make it breakable with HP some day. (400HP like a pylon should be great)
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I want to talk about the amulet upgrade idea that I stole from the Bliz forums. Ghost have an upgrade to increase starting energy, Infestor does too. Why not Templars?
"Because it can be warped it anywhere there is power"
Exactly. Why not reduce the amulet cost and make it only so HT built from GATEWAYS not Warpgate get the bonus?
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There is another big problem that is still not resolved.. the ForceFields.. ZvP is a nightmare because of the FF.. Hope they will make it breakable with HP some day.
as a P, i agree it's very tough for a zerg to deal with colossus / stalker / ff
i do, however, think Z needs to "play differently," as in, don't wait for the 200/200 head-on engagement
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On March 01 2011 00:37 SpiZe wrote:
I want to talk about the amulet upgrade idea that I stole from the Bliz forums. Ghost have an upgrade to increase starting energy, Infestor does too. Why not Templars?
Its because instant Warp+Storm is far more powerfull than an EMP or a FG.
+ Ghosts/Infestors need 40/50 sec of built time, a Warp is only 5 sec.
You can kill instantly an entire army with 2/3 storms.. What do you except to do with 2/3 EMP or FG ?
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On March 01 2011 00:41 redwingxviii wrote:Show nested quote + There is another big problem that is still not resolved.. the ForceFields.. ZvP is a nightmare because of the FF.. Hope they will make it breakable with HP some day. as a P, i agree it's very tough for a zerg to deal with colossus / stalker / ff i do, however, think Z needs to "play differently," as in, don't wait for the 200/200 head-on engagement
the only issue with FF"s is how the pathing system doesn't take them into effect, and so a single forcefield can glitch out a control group and cause them to linger long enough to take a couple more shots from collosus.
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On March 01 2011 00:37 SpiZe wrote:
I want to talk about the amulet upgrade idea that I stole from the Bliz forums. Ghost have an upgrade to increase starting energy, Infestor does too. Why not Templars?
"Because it can be warped it anywhere there is power"
Exactly. Why not reduce the amulet cost and make it only so HT built from GATEWAYS not Warpgate get the bonus?
This is probably the stupidest change i have seen in this thread
warpgates are so crucial in protoss game play that this would change the game too much
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On March 01 2011 00:05 GinDo wrote:
Mothership is a support unit not a gamebreaker. Its to easy to do and its Retarded.
The whole Mothership thing is retarded, no matter what. I remember people saying "this is StarCraft, not command & conquer", but hey, we got Dustin Bowder onboard, right?
The concept of a super-weapon like the Mammoth MK2 which can only be build once is just so akward. I dont mind nerfing the Mothership into oblivion just to get rid of it because the feel of it is NOT COOL.
But to add my thought on this: I wonder why Blizz is actually changing so much. GSL has made new maps and everyone is curious to see if the balance gets better on bigger maps. Now Blizzard comes along and is putting so many changes into one patch - sure it has not been released, but to me this is activism at its worst.
I really agree on Zerg needing some kind of buff. But this patch touches all match ups and just changes so much that the evolution, the game has taken, is again being reset or at least rewinded.
Now it will take a few weeks again until players have figured out how to play this patch, then the new balance complains arise and then after people learn to deal with it, Blizz comes along and messes with the meta-game again.
I like Blizzard's methodical approach to balance and I like the fact that they don't act too fast - but I feel that when they take action, they are a bit over eager and try to take care of too many issues at once.
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On March 01 2011 00:42 Tabriss wrote:
Its because instant Warp+Storm is far more powerfull than an EMP or a FG.
+ Ghosts/Infestors need 40/50 sec of built time, a Warp is only 5 sec.
You can kill instantly an entire army with 2/3 storms.. What do you except to do with 2/3 EMP or FG ?
and you can cause an otherwise equal battle to be entirely one sided with 2/3 emps. please show me a vod or a replay where 2-3 storms instantly kills an entire army vs a competent terran PLEASE, or are u basicly just bullshittin?
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Funny, they don't mention the price overseer went up in price to 150/100
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On March 01 2011 00:42 Tabriss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 00:37 SpiZe wrote:
I want to talk about the amulet upgrade idea that I stole from the Bliz forums. Ghost have an upgrade to increase starting energy, Infestor does too. Why not Templars?
Its because instant Warp+Storm is far more powerfull than an EMP or a FG. + Ghosts/Infestors need 40/50 sec of built time, a Warp is only 5 sec. You can kill instantly an entire army with 2/3 storms.. What do you except to do with 2/3 EMP or FG ?
I doubt that 2-3 storms suffice to kill a whole army. And I can tell you what to expect from 1 EMP: Draining all energy from all HTs which are clumped together, allowing Terran to steamroll any Protoss army with their Chuck-Norris-Infantry force which eats Gateway units for breakfast.
Oh yeah, I forgot: Protosses are to keep their HTs spread out. Well, better keep the bio ball spread out, it will make storm way less effective. I agree on nerfing Amulet, but removing it completely seems too much - as many said before. Was something like faster energy regeneration as a possible effect of KAmulet proposed?
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On March 01 2011 00:37 SpiZe wrote:
I want to talk about the amulet upgrade idea that I stole from the Bliz forums. Ghost have an upgrade to increase starting energy, Infestor does too. Why not Templars?
"Because it can be warped it anywhere there is power"
Exactly. Why not reduce the amulet cost and make it only so HT built from GATEWAYS not Warpgate get the bonus?
I'm actually fine with that. High templars are so mineral cheap anyways that I would throw down extra gateways in the lategame to make more high templars. It might even promote warp prism use to shuffle your high temps around.
I'm horrified by the amulet nerf though. Terran bio balls aren't even the scariest thing. Storm was the only thing to deal with death balls of mutas.
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Like you never saw a hydras, mutas or bioball army die in a heartbit with some storms. Anyway the problem is not the storm itself, it's balanced no problem with that, and I'm not agree to remove the Amulet. Decrease the amulet to +25 to +15 or even +20 could be enough.
The thing that bothers me is to be able of warp instantly in the middle of a fight a unit which can burst like hell. No way than a Terran or zerg is able to do the same.
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Anyone thought of giving corruptors additional range might solve some problems? They will be better against Colossus, vikings (for protecting broodlords) thus make a better late game for zerg against a turtling terran and (if the fungal revamp goes through) Mutas.
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I think that, as has been suggested the energy increase of amulet is all the needs to be changed. Templar are slow to tech too early, because you're RELIANT on amulet to use them effectively. Without the amulet its difficult to hold off continuous aggression, and in general to stop some unit compositions that terran has. Mech play is moderate against storm anyway, its not like the matchup was broke enough to warrant removing the upgrade. If anything the recent statistics suggest protoss need to be stronger, not that im suggesting this.
I think Amulet should be changed to +20 rather than +25, this means in a battle youre army can not instantly be reinforced with storms, warp prism drops require more of a commitment as you cant simply warp in templars, you need to have them in the warp prism as it moves out, which is a huge investment, as any protoss players will say.
And also dealing with large scale bio harrass is possible, but not easy. With +25 energy, you can just warp in a templar and storm the drop force, dealing instantly probably enough damage to end the push. This wouldnt be possible with only +20 energy, but it wouldnt leave the protoss players with no other option but spreading their army across every base and leaving them very open to a direct attack.
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On March 01 2011 00:54 Tabriss wrote:
Like you never saw a hydras, mutas or bioball army die in a heartbit with some storms. Anyway the problem is not the storm itself, it's balanced no problem with that, and I'm not agree to remove the Amulet. Decrease the amulet to +25 to +15 or even +20 could be enough.
The thing that bothers me is to be able to warp instantly in the middle of a fight a unit which can burst like hell. No way than a Terran or zerg is able to do the same.
Zerg doesn't burst one, he bursts many due to larva. Terran bursts less, but each of them are in the top of dps of the game. No way a protoss can go from 100 in less than 1 minute or have decent stand alone ranged dps units. Yeh, in 1 minute toss can warp in some ht with storm somewhere on the map. Oh yeah? zerg in 1 minute i can get 100 supply and with my creep get there as fast. Me terran, i can destroy your base in 1 minute, and when you come back to defend it, i pick up my troops and go back home. Neither of the other can do this. To each their own. If HT, colossus and warp in are powerful, so are other aspects of zerg and terran. And each of them needs it to be able to survive to the others. If ht and colossus are op, so is remaxing of zerg, or their huge mobility, and dps of marines and marauders. Either of these considered alone can be seen as OP, but seeing that each race has something powerful, they need it.
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corruptors kill colossus pretty slow especially if your army contains a lot of hydras
Either nerf colossus, buff curruptors, buff hydras
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On March 01 2011 00:54 Tabriss wrote:
Like you never saw a hydras, mutas or bioball army die in a heartbit with some storms. Anyway the problem is not the storm itself, it's balanced no problem with that, and I'm not agree to remove the Amulet. Decrease the amulet to +25 to +15 or even +20 could be enough.
The thing that bothers me is to be able to warp instantly a unit which can burst like hell. No way than a Terran or zerg is able to do the same.
and how is the removal of Amulet gonna fix this?
If Storm is teched this is still gonna melt those compositions...only 30-40s later...
in such an scenario, the opponent has to change his Unitcomposition, blaming storm for playing Marine/Marauder or T2 Tech for Zerg all game long is what makes Storm strong nothing else.
But instead of making T3 more attractive we now remove one of the 2 lategame options of Protoss to balance things out?
it is such a stupid change:
if i have the choice of Colossus or HT you can just think about pro & cons:
+ Colossus -> constant AoE
+ More Mobile
- higher buildtime
HT:
- way less mobile
- Warpin useless since storm isn't usable for 40s
- costs tons of gas to get and use 1 Storm costs = 150 Gas
+ better AoE Damage (if your enemy sux and stays in the storm)
Actually Colossus buildtime is considered a con argument, but if you now add the additional time for energy regeneration to Hightemplars (45s cooldown + 5 s warpin + 44s energy gathering)
the effective Buildtime is now around ~ 90s
the strengh of HT was that you could get AoE quicker than with Colossus, but without Amulet this advantage is absolutely gone. Sure you could still get HT for additional Damage.
But it will never be a core Unit anymore cause it is way to unrealiable.
Everything will concentrate on Colossus builds from now on.
Which will then put fuel in the fire of Colossus QQ.
So next nerf gonna hit colossus
why not just remove T3 Tech of Protoss?
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Dude you quote me and you don't even read my post..
I said I'm not agree to remove the Amulet.. I said to decrease the Amulet from +25 to +15 or +20..
It means that you need to wait, let's say 5/10 sec, before use a Storm after warping a HT in the middle of a fight..
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EPT
