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On February 12 2011 19:36 blith wrote:
Wow, I agree with so many things in this post.
I mean battle 2.0 seems like more of a downgrade then an upgrade.
no cross realm play,
no lan,
no clan system,
even chat took a while to implement.
Clan war function woulda be great,
change of map pool- as u mentioned
I just don't see how they are "supporting E-sports"...
Agreed.
Don't forget that even current chat is worse than what it was in WC3.
Also don't forget the stupid limitations for map publishers, the limited custom games screen and options for it. Seems like Blizzard wants to control every thing and you can't even kick a player out of a game, that is real sad the direction blizzard is taking.
Bnet 2 is actually bnet 0.2 as so many people have said.
![[image loading]](http://imageupload.org/dm-712976404110.png)
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I have a friend like OP's that says, "Starcraft 2 is like starcraft bw but crappier". I love starcraft 2 so I tried to argue against him but.... I honestly had nothing.
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Everybody seems a little impatient to me...if people are still whining about the balance of the game, whether it be in units or maps, changing a map pool this early might be pretty bad...blizzard is being pretty safe and making sure they have all the data they need to make an educated, confident decision on how to proceed. The game is not at a stable point.
As for the multiple accounts, this was partly done so that pro players can't make smurf accounts of their own free will to smash lower-level tournies without having to buy a whole freakin' account.
Please, please recognize how delicate blizzard has to be BECAUSE of starcraft 2's huge scene in e-sports. Nothing drastic can be done from patch to patch, things are going to have to evolve slower than we think. BW had about TEN YEARS to get to the point it is now, and people expect a new product to reach the same level in 7 months after release.
I think something that might alleviate some of the problems with the ladder would be to have an unranked, more malleable matchmaking setup, where players can offrace, vote up AND down maps or even matchups to play on, to give people more versatility with one account.
You shouldn't be able to pick your map and matchup on the ladder, because it's supposed to represent a player's skill across ALL maps and matchups, not just the ones you WANT to play on.
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The game's only been out for 7 months.
I really can't wait til PIMPEST PLAYS 2011, SC2 version. (Hopefully the Pros show us some crazy genius plays)... And I have confidence that they will make things happen, especially after watching the most recent GSTL.
But I think in order for the game to settle down and become a classic, it has to go through the two expansion packs first... (to get the new units and mechanics integrated in there...) Like how SC1 became so much more dynamic after Broodwar.
I really don't want Lurkers, dark archons, and vessels though... Would rather see new units.
I'm just sad that it's going to take such a long time 
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On February 14 2011 09:39 brobear wrote:
The game's only been out for 7 months.
I really can't wait til PIMPEST PLAYS 2011, SC2 version. (Hopefully the Pros show us some crazy genius plays)... And I have confidence that they will make things happen, especially after watching the most recent GSTL.
lol pimpest plays won't happen in SC2. All we see are death balls clashing. The only thing that would qualify as pimp would be the emp nuke by tlo
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[Nothing drastic can be done from patch to patch, things are going to have to evolve slower than we think. BW had about TEN YEARS to get to the point it is now, and people expect a new product to reach the same level in 7 months after release.
No, they don't. Well, I guess some people do, but the reasonable people expect that the features offered in starcraft 2 would build from its predecessor, not ignore them. A lot of people say that it IS an improvement from bnet 1.0, but, don't assume Blizzard is stupid. It knew about iCCup and its features, and they could have built off that system to create something better, or at least equivalent, but they didn't. The motivation for some things are clear, i.e. lack of LAN support, cross region play, multiple accounts , etc are for maximized profit margins. Things like chat channels, custom game interface, poor social features, etc has no defined motivation, as lack of these features does not lead to increased sales, and frankly, just appears sloppy on their part.
an unranked, more malleable matchmaking setup, where players can offrace, vote up AND down maps or even matchups to play on, to give people more versatility with one account.
The point of offracing is to be as competitive as possible with it. How do you measure your sense of improvement playing unranked? Why not just join a custom game as your offrace if you can't ladder with it? People like to ladder because climbing the ladder gives a sense of accomplishment and improvement. An unranked system lead to no such feeling of accomplishment/improvement, and also, makes unbalanced matchups more possible (Masters v Bronze, etc).
You shouldn't be able to pick your map and matchup on the ladder, because it's supposed to represent a player's skill across ALL maps and matchups, not just the ones you WANT to play on.
No it's not, it's supposed to represent how far they've climbed the ladder. If it doesn't effect your play, why does it matter to you that he climbed only playing ZvT, or just playing Scrap Station? It doesn't, it just hurts your ego. "I worked really hard to get to masters league and this zerg only played scrap station to get here! Gahfaw, Gahfaw, Gahfaw!"
The point in playing the ladder is supposed to be to become a better player. If that guy goes to a tournament he's not going to get very far because every game won't be on scrap, or every match up won't be ZvT. If you play him on the ladder as a Terran and you lose, he played better, why should you give a shit that he can't play v protoss very well? He plays ZvT at a masters level. In truth, there are a lot of people who fit this description. If I'm only good at vT, I can still get to masters because there are allot of terran players out there. My cousin plays zerg, and he's pretty aweful at ZvT and ZvZ, but damn is he good at ZvP. Guess what, he skated his ass right to masters.
It's not like I'm saying you should remove the instant search for game feature, a lot of people like that, including me. BUT, if I want specific practice on this match up on this map, I can't get that with the current iteration of Bnet. The best I can hope for is to find practice partners, but I'll never get the diversity of training through practice partners as I would playing competitively on the ladder.
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Until your friend is the number 1 player in the world i don't see a reason for him to be bored.
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On February 14 2011 10:23 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
Until your friend is the number 1 player in the world i don't see a reason for him to be bored.
not everyone has that lofty of a goal, he might be playing the game for different reasons than a competitive player.
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On February 14 2011 10:13 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +an unranked, more malleable matchmaking setup, where players can offrace, vote up AND down maps or even matchups to play on, to give people more versatility with one account. The point of offracing is to be as competitive as possible with it. How do you measure your sense of improvement playing unranked? Why not just join a custom game as your offrace if you can't ladder with it? People like to ladder because climbing the ladder gives a sense of accomplishment and improvement. An unranked system lead to no such feeling of accomplishment/improvement, and also, makes unbalanced matchups more possible (Masters v Bronze, etc). Show nested quote +You shouldn't be able to pick your map and matchup on the ladder, because it's supposed to represent a player's skill across ALL maps and matchups, not just the ones you WANT to play on. No it's not, it's supposed to represent how far they've climbed the ladder. If it doesn't effect your play, why does it matter to you that he climbed only playing ZvT, or just playing Scrap Station? It doesn't, it just hurts your ego. "I worked really hard to get to masters league and this zerg only played scrap station to get here! Gahfaw, Gahfaw, Gahfaw!" The point in playing the ladder is supposed to be to become a better player. If that guy goes to a tournament he's not going to get very far because every game won't be on scrap, or every match up won't be ZvT. If you play him on the ladder as a Terran and you lose, he played better, why should you give a shit that he can't play v protoss very well? He plays ZvT at a masters level. In truth, there are a lot of people who fit this description. If I'm only good at vT, I can still get to masters because there are allot of terran players out there. My cousin plays zerg, and he's pretty aweful at ZvT and ZvZ, but damn is he good at ZvP. Guess what, he skated his ass right to masters. It's not like I'm saying you should remove the instant search for game feature, a lot of people like that, including me. BUT, if I want specific practice on this match up on this map, I can't get that with the current iteration of Bnet. The best I can hope for is to find practice partners, but I'll never get the diversity of training through practice partners as I would playing competitively on the ladder.
I actually agreed with you on a lot of your subjects until i read this.
Your view on the ladder is completely wrong. Its not how skilled you are in a specific area of the game, its how skilled you are at the game as a whole. Who cares if you're good at ZvT on scrap when if we play in a tourny and its a Bo3 you're guaranteed a loss in the next two games.
And why do you think people off race to be competitive? Sometimes I just want to play protoss for a game, yet it kills my ranking because I play against masters league people when I'm just trying to mess around for a game or two.
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On February 13 2011 16:35 D10 wrote:
I think this post will be lost in the middle of this thread but heres how I see the ladder suggestion from someone who played all blizzard RTS
Forcing the ladder upon the players is not really the best way to dictate the experience.
There should be several ladders, a community should be able to have its ladder, a TL ladder, or a ladder for a specific tournament.
Also, you could have begginer ladders with 2v2s and whatnots.
In sum, I think mandatory global ladder way that blizzard is doing right now is decent, but its lack of flexibily and community involvement in everyday ladder games are greatly staggering the games, its what made BW great, and it could make sc2 the best game of all times.
give us the power to create our own ladders (even if its only the mighty ones) iccup would make a ladder ingame and you wouldnt have to worry about maps.
The whole point that makes blizzard ladder bad, is that altho they have a decent data system behind them, they dont really use it to no good when it comes to keeping the ladder spicy, and people with that desire to get into game and have a good time playing SC2
Most of my friends see sc2 as a boring grind, and I think the way the ladder works is a big reason of why so many people feel like not playing, the system just imposes itself on you, and custom interface is kinda weak (no names), you should always feel like you have a place where you can sparr with good random people, but its not really counting on the big leagues.
Damn didnt realize my english was that bad ... =O
My point was, we need to privatize ladders, the awesome relationship between community and devs can happen in a equalitary way, that makes everyone happy.
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I can't believe people are trying to argue against the OP's points. Are people actually that much of Blizzard fanboys that they can't see that a lot of people are dissatisfied with a huge amount of things they are doing?
I agree with the OP, and I really am tired of Blizzard being just like every other big game company and being so incredibly stubborn and unwilling to change what their original plan was if it no longer caters to their playerbase.
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On February 14 2011 11:05 Angra wrote:
I can't believe people are trying to argue against the OP's points. Are people actually that much of Blizzard fanboys that they can't see that a lot of people are dissatisfied with a huge amount of things they are doing?
I agree with the OP, and I really am tired of Blizzard being just like every other big game company and being so incredibly stubborn and unwilling to change what their original plan was if it no longer caters to their playerbase.
Nah brah, they're just apologists who ignore what greed/laziness/stupidity has done to blizzard
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Wow this thread is stupid.
You know you can just play on ICCup in SC2 right? The is nothing stopping you setting up third party ladders just like BW had, if they are so much better then people would use them. All they are is arranged custom matches.
The ladder is a "Quick Match" function, you click the button you get a game with someone on a comparable skill level in less than a minute. I would kill for a function like that in other games. It is not designed to be a replacement for competitive leagues and ladders, or replacement for organised practice sessions. The ladder provides instant, fun, competitive games with no waiting around and no hassle trying to set things up. The ladder for the most is just a way of matching you against roughly equal level players as fast and as simply as possible.
There is nothing stopping you doing anything you can do with BW, such as a ladder like ICCup (aside from the obvious no lan or cross region stuff).
The only thing I will say that is hindering the custom game side of SC2 is the poor interface for finding and getting custom maps. A simple "Most popular Melee maps" list would be hugely beneficial, for both players and map makers.
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On February 14 2011 10:59 shabinka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 10:13 Arisen wrote:an unranked, more malleable matchmaking setup, where players can offrace, vote up AND down maps or even matchups to play on, to give people more versatility with one account. The point of offracing is to be as competitive as possible with it. How do you measure your sense of improvement playing unranked? Why not just join a custom game as your offrace if you can't ladder with it? People like to ladder because climbing the ladder gives a sense of accomplishment and improvement. An unranked system lead to no such feeling of accomplishment/improvement, and also, makes unbalanced matchups more possible (Masters v Bronze, etc). You shouldn't be able to pick your map and matchup on the ladder, because it's supposed to represent a player's skill across ALL maps and matchups, not just the ones you WANT to play on. No it's not, it's supposed to represent how far they've climbed the ladder. If it doesn't effect your play, why does it matter to you that he climbed only playing ZvT, or just playing Scrap Station? It doesn't, it just hurts your ego. "I worked really hard to get to masters league and this zerg only played scrap station to get here! Gahfaw, Gahfaw, Gahfaw!" The point in playing the ladder is supposed to be to become a better player. If that guy goes to a tournament he's not going to get very far because every game won't be on scrap, or every match up won't be ZvT. If you play him on the ladder as a Terran and you lose, he played better, why should you give a shit that he can't play v protoss very well? He plays ZvT at a masters level. In truth, there are a lot of people who fit this description. If I'm only good at vT, I can still get to masters because there are allot of terran players out there. My cousin plays zerg, and he's pretty aweful at ZvT and ZvZ, but damn is he good at ZvP. Guess what, he skated his ass right to masters. It's not like I'm saying you should remove the instant search for game feature, a lot of people like that, including me. BUT, if I want specific practice on this match up on this map, I can't get that with the current iteration of Bnet. The best I can hope for is to find practice partners, but I'll never get the diversity of training through practice partners as I would playing competitively on the ladder. I actually agreed with you on a lot of your subjects until i read this. Your view on the ladder is completely wrong. Its not how skilled you are in a specific area of the game, its how skilled you are at the game as a whole. Who cares if you're good at ZvT on scrap when if we play in a tourny and its a Bo3 you're guaranteed a loss in the next two games.
EXACTLY. My point was it does not effect anything but your ego. That guy who is playing nothing but ZvT on SS isn't going to be stealing tourneys, he's just ranked in the same league as you, and might be able to take a game off you on that map. I'm not saying "you should only play one match up and get to the masters league!" But obviously that was/is possible on a custom ladder, and that's why some people don't like the idea of custom games on ladder. I'm simply saying that it doesn't matter. The only reason people dislike this is because of their egos. It rubs them the wrong way that they put less effort (in their minds, at least) into it then them. If a few people want to one dimensionalize their play, let them, it's not like it effects anyone else.
And why do you think people off race to be competitive? Sometimes I just want to play protoss for a game, yet it kills my ranking because I play against masters league people when I'm just trying to mess around for a game or two.
If you don't want to face people of your approximate skill level and measure your improvement with that race, play a random custom game. If you do, however, want to play protoss a few games every now and then against people of your approximate skill level and constantly improve, a ladder setting is where that is going to happen.
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On February 14 2011 11:08 Kazang wrote:
Wow this thread is stupid.
You know you can just play on ICCup in SC2 right? The is nothing stopping you setting up third party ladders just like BW had, if they are so much better then people would use them. All they are is arranged custom matches.
The ladder is a "Quick Match" function, you click the button you get a game with someone on a comparable skill level in less than a minute. I would kill for a function like that in other games. It is not designed to be a replacement for competitive leagues and ladders, or replacement for organised practice sessions. The ladder provides instant, fun, competitive games with no waiting around and no hassle trying to set things up. The ladder for the most is just a way of matching you against roughly equal level players as fast and as simply as possible.
There is nothing stopping you doing anything you can do with BW, such as a ladder like ICCup (aside from the obvious no lan or cross region stuff).
The only thing I will say that is hindering the custom game side of SC2 is the poor interface for finding and getting custom maps. A simple "Most popular Melee maps" list would be hugely beneficial, for both players and map makers.
No, you can't. Custom ladders are against the TOS. Go to iccup right now and find Starcraft 2, don't worry, I'll wait. Here's the link. http://www.iccup.com/
*edit* It's also worth noting that iCCup wasn't legal under BW's TOS either, but Blizzard didn't particularly care about BW after a while, so they didn't do anything about it.
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On February 14 2011 11:26 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 11:08 Kazang wrote:
Wow this thread is stupid.
You know you can just play on ICCup in SC2 right? The is nothing stopping you setting up third party ladders just like BW had, if they are so much better then people would use them. All they are is arranged custom matches.
The ladder is a "Quick Match" function, you click the button you get a game with someone on a comparable skill level in less than a minute. I would kill for a function like that in other games. It is not designed to be a replacement for competitive leagues and ladders, or replacement for organised practice sessions. The ladder provides instant, fun, competitive games with no waiting around and no hassle trying to set things up. The ladder for the most is just a way of matching you against roughly equal level players as fast and as simply as possible.
There is nothing stopping you doing anything you can do with BW, such as a ladder like ICCup (aside from the obvious no lan or cross region stuff).
The only thing I will say that is hindering the custom game side of SC2 is the poor interface for finding and getting custom maps. A simple "Most popular Melee maps" list would be hugely beneficial, for both players and map makers. No, you can't. Custom ladders are against the TOS. Go to iccup right now and find Starcraft 2, don't worry, I'll wait. Here's the link. http://www.iccup.com/*edit* It's also worth noting that iCCup wasn't legal under BW's TOS either, but Blizzard didn't particularly care about BW after a while, so they didn't do anything about it.
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft2/
If custom ladders are against the TOS then *any* competition would be. A Ladder match is just a custom game with it's outcome effecting a external ranking, you get points on a ladder for playing and placing in the TL Open, is blizzard going to ban that? It's not enforceable unless blizzard ban every account, which it is possible they will do but highly unlikely as it would essentially kill the game.
EDIT: I'm not saying that custom ladders aren't against the TOS as i don't precisely know the wording, but in any case it remains possible to run custom games and record the result and award some kind of points for them, which is what a custom ladder is.
Any site running a ladder isn't breaking the TOS, as it's just a list of numbers that are not in any way property of blizzard, only the users are liable. In that case it's a matter of standing up for what you want, if they ban you, kick up a fuss, riot, rage blog the internet, ddos b.net.
Making a thread simply complaining that the ladder is not Iccup is impotent.
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On February 14 2011 11:35 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 11:26 Arisen wrote:On February 14 2011 11:08 Kazang wrote:
Wow this thread is stupid.
You know you can just play on ICCup in SC2 right? The is nothing stopping you setting up third party ladders just like BW had, if they are so much better then people would use them. All they are is arranged custom matches.
The ladder is a "Quick Match" function, you click the button you get a game with someone on a comparable skill level in less than a minute. I would kill for a function like that in other games. It is not designed to be a replacement for competitive leagues and ladders, or replacement for organised practice sessions. The ladder provides instant, fun, competitive games with no waiting around and no hassle trying to set things up. The ladder for the most is just a way of matching you against roughly equal level players as fast and as simply as possible.
There is nothing stopping you doing anything you can do with BW, such as a ladder like ICCup (aside from the obvious no lan or cross region stuff).
The only thing I will say that is hindering the custom game side of SC2 is the poor interface for finding and getting custom maps. A simple "Most popular Melee maps" list would be hugely beneficial, for both players and map makers. No, you can't. Custom ladders are against the TOS. Go to iccup right now and find Starcraft 2, don't worry, I'll wait. Here's the link. http://www.iccup.com/*edit* It's also worth noting that iCCup wasn't legal under BW's TOS either, but Blizzard didn't particularly care about BW after a while, so they didn't do anything about it. http://www.iccup.com/starcraft2/If custom ladders are against the TOS then *any* competition would be. A Ladder match is just a custom game with it's outcome effecting a external ranking, you get points on a ladder for playing and placing in the TL Open, is blizzard going to ban that? It's not enforceable unless blizzard ban every account, which it is possible they will do but highly unlikely as it would essentially kill the game.
This system never happened, and was designed so that you could play on the beta. You cannot log into an iCCup server to play on.
Perhaps my retort was worded poorly. Yes, custom ladders are allowed under the TOS in a broad sense, that is to say that I can get together with friends and design custom games and form that into a ladder, but a custom ladder in the sense that iCCup was a custom ladder is not allowed.
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Well, Blizzard needs to get their shit together to prove that they aren't actually Activision-Blizzard..
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If you really want an ICCup-like system, that isn't against the TOS (im 100% sure it's possible, perhaps not easy though), you (as in us, the community) will have to implement it.
The ladder is what is, a mass market quick game finder, it is designed to be as simple and noob friendly as possible. All the millions of players that don't even know TL exists are the main target of the ladder.
Is that holding back true competition and "free market" system of ladders, yes most certainly. But at the end of the day blizzard can't just change it to a complicated system that alienates a massive number of players, costs them money and potentially opens up a whole raft of huge security problems for b.net.
It comes back to control of their product and resource management at the end of the day,
It's the same as the lan thing, I of course would like lan, as i would like custom ladders in b.net, but in reality that isn't going to happen any time soon. And if it does it wont be the result of our words here.
I'm being a little cynical, but this is blizzard-activision we are talking about. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to do anything.
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EPT
