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On February 12 2011 19:36 blith wrote:
Wow, I agree with so many things in this post.
I mean battle 2.0 seems like more of a downgrade then an upgrade.
no cross realm play,
no lan,
no clan system,
even chat took a while to implement.
Yeah I agree with this even though I think this topic is poking a dead horse.
I don't mind if people like BW but BW lobbyist really need to get over it, your game WILL die. Yeah it might take godamn near forever just like CS or perhaps it'll always be there.
My point is; BW has lived its glory days. It will never again become bigger than it is now, it will only go down in popularity as time goes by and the progamers become adults and/or can't continue it. It might stay active much longer in Korea but in the rest of the world it wont ever become what SC2 has the potentiall to become.
That said, I think Blizzard are handeling SC2 really really bad.
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I agree with almost everything in the post! I wanna be able to play other maps, and choosing which race to play against!
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On February 14 2011 21:15 blackbrrd wrote:
Adding and removing a map say, every 2-4 weeks shouldn't be that hard, and would keep the ladder quite fresh when it comes to maps.
Blizzard is aiming to change the map poll every 3-4 months, which is something they're "behind on".
Depending on how many maps they change at a time, that might work out okay.
If, next month, Blizzard took out Lost Temple, Delta, Jungle Basin, and Blistering Sands, and replaced them with Test Map 1, Terminus*, Crossfire*, and...Test Map 2, maybe. That'd be a pretty baller update. I think it's even something that could happen.
*The Blizzard versions. Which are maybe not quite as good as the slightly-modified GSL versions, but still pretty damn good.
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(Accidental double post. Ignore)
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On February 12 2011 19:26 Arisen wrote:
1
"Maps," my friend continued on "aren't even the only problem. Why can't I choose to play on metalopolis, instead of getting a random map? Why Can't I choose to play vs. Terran instead of vs a random race? In Brood War, I'd spend entire practice sessions on specific maps on a specific matchup I was having trouble with, and it lead to interesting play. You couldn't do the exact same thing ZvT on python as you could ZvT on Fighting Spirit. The way the ladder itself was structured led to more interesting plays based on maps. Do you know how hard it is to develop a specific style on a specific map in star2 without a lot of very good practice partners? You have to pray that map/match up comes up on the random ladder to get some practice."
2
"Why," he exclaimed "can I only have one account per game? If I'm a competitive player vying for top 200 and I want to play around with protoss on the ladder, I'm risking allot of points. Why can't I just have a separate account? What if I'm having allot of problems with a specific map, and I'm really struggling with zvp on one of these new maps that blizz puts out, what am I going to do? Suck it up and get my ass handed to me a bunch? In BW I'd reset my account, play against some D players and really find some timings that I could abuse at those higher levels without being worried all the time about all the stuff those better players could do to me."
Another good set of points, I thought. Allot of people would disagree with the last point, as the whole "smurfing problem" could get out of hand, but to be honest, I think that resetting your account to find these holes and timings you could abuse was such a good way to improve in BW (listen to Day9's old podcast named "Why You should play against worse players") for an overview of the concept.
3
"It seems," he concluded, "they're just trying to create a situation where they can ream the game for as much money as it's worth. People will clamor for LAN latency for months, then they'll come along and say 'good news, we'll be releasing a patch that implements LAN latency...for a fee'. They'll start selling map packs, or whatever they can get away with. I hope I'm wrong, but that just seems the direction things are going, and if that's the case, I'm fine with going back to BW."
The whole conversation was pretty eye opening to me. I of course, wanted allot of the same things he wanted, but I never stopped to think that Blizzard being so inflexible about providing these sorts of things might lead people to stop playing because they're getting bored with it, or just are frustrated with Blizzard that much. It seems to me like, if these new maps are just more of the same and blizzard continues refusing community maps, how long before casual competitive players (read non-pros) just drop away?
Your friend is just ignorant. If you consider his conversation is eye opener, you just got brainwashed.
Before i go on, please consider these 3 points:
1. What does ladder mean to you?
2. If you play a game on ladder, do you expect to win?
3. If you know that playing against certain race on certain map will have a near 80% win rate, would you likely to queue that map more often?
If ladder means nothing to you, then you can play custom games all day and be happy. However, if you are competitive like me, you will make sure that if you play a game, you want to be the winner.
1.
Your friend want to pick his opponent's race on his map's choice on ladder. Maybe your friend has good intention of practicing, but he forgot about other players who wants to advances through the ladder. It is the ladder. Everyone wants to be the winner, no one wants to take a loss. Everyone will queue maps that favor their race. This will lead to a long queue time, which i assure you there will be a outcry how Blizzard is garbage, money-hungry company that make you waiting too long for game. Also, no one will take ladder seriously because it does not prove your skill. It only proves how abusive you can get.
2.
Again your friend is just pure ignorant and stubborn. He wants to off-race and doesn't want to lose ladder points. Is he a fucking retard or what? So he wants smurf accounts, so he can beat up newbies when he offraces on ladder? You need to tell him that he is a selfish bitch. He can offrace fine in custom games. But no, it must be ladder, right? Fucking selfish bitch.
By the way, i am absolutely against smurf accounts. Smurf account is the bane of genuine new player and it is near impossible to gauge one's skill.
3.
Blizzard is not inflexible about implement a community map. There are lot of good community maps. However, it is not wise to implement all of them because it would be way too many maps on ladder. The question is which one should blizzard add? When they add one map, i would be so sure that there will be demand to add another one, and another one, and another one. You get the idea.
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On February 14 2011 22:57 Prime`Rib wrote:
By the way, i am absolutely against smurf accounts. Smurf account is the bane of genuine new player and it is near impossible to gauge one's skill.
Actually smurf accounts can make it fair, unless of course they are being abused. I have two smurf accounts, my main Zerg (high Plat, demoted from Diamond), my Gold Terran and my Silver Protoss. I got those leagues from playing normally, not losing intentionally. If i'd play all races on one account i'd lose a lot as protoss until i get the hang of it, possibly drop to gold and giving a lot of people undeserved wins on the way down (as their score increases as if they really played against my main race). Then when i'd change back to Zerg i would roflstomp 20 opponents just because the MMR dropped so much that my opponents simply cannot compete, giving them undeserved losses.
Yes, it can be abused, you can lose 100 matches and then just stomp zero point bronze players a few times, but there are always people that game the system. With my terran smurf i checked how long it takes until you play against the higher leagues after losing a lot, and after about 20 losses it took me about 5 games until my opponents where silver, another 5 to gold and a few more to platinum (yes, i gave people undeserved wins and undeserved losses, but well, i was curious), meaning you'd have to lose a lot more than you win to really stay that low and be able to bash "noobs".
Smurf accounts are not that bad, people abusing them excessively are the problem.
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On February 14 2011 23:09 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 22:57 Prime`Rib wrote:
By the way, i am absolutely against smurf accounts. Smurf account is the bane of genuine new player and it is near impossible to gauge one's skill.
Actually smurf accounts can make it fair, unless of course they are being abused. I have two smurf accounts, my main Zerg (high Plat, demoted from Diamond), my Gold Terran and my Silver Protoss. I got those leagues from playing normally, not losing intentionally. If i'd play all races on one account i'd lose a lot as protoss until i get the hang of it, possibly drop to gold and giving a lot of people undeserved wins on the way down (as their score increases as if they really played against my main race). Then when i'd change back to Zerg i would roflstomp 20 opponents just because the MMR dropped so much that my opponents simply cannot compete, giving them undeserved losses. Yes, it can be abused, you can lose 100 matches and then just stomp zero point bronze players a few times, but there are always people that game the system. With my terran smurf i checked how long it takes until you play against the higher leagues after losing a lot, and after about 20 losses it took me about 5 games until my opponents where silver, another 5 to gold and a few more to platinum (yes, i gave people undeserved wins and undeserved losses, but well, i was curious), meaning you'd have to lose a lot more than you win to really stay that low and be able to bash "noobs". Smurf accounts are not that bad, people abusing them excessively are the problem.
Those accounts are not abused excessively because they cost something, in WC3 people would make new accounts constantly just to try and get a better win/loss ratio. So much so it was common for people to have a list of all their accounts in their profile.
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I actually like the ladder system. Could do without bonus pool and defiantly would like to see new maps quite a bit more often but i have faith. BW wasnt the wonder it was out the bat either. It took a few year. 2 years after the final expansions comes out is when i play on judging blizzard and this game. Same as it was almost 2 years after SC Vanilla when any kind of real good changes where made.
I actually just kinda think of WoL as basically SC2 Vanilla. I have hope.
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It's not the Ladder that's broken. To compete in Ladder you shouldn't be allowed to pick matchups and maps. That is not how a ladder is supposed to work. However, if you wanna use the ladder to practice for tournaments, or feel you don't improve enough playing ladder because the matchup or map you want to improve on comes up too rarely, you need to realize that for practicing there are custom games.
A ladder isn't for practising. It's for competition. But the medium for practicing - Custom Games - is broken in SC2. Check out this thread, it contains the answer I wanted to give here at first until I realized it's its own big story that deserves a new thread.
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On February 12 2011 19:52 Zionner wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 19:45 Tedde93 wrote:
Last i checked BW didn't have ladder, so you played customs games, OH wait i just remembered something you can still do that. . . If you wanna practice against a certain race on a certain map play custom games with a friend. . . Right... and if you are a player in the masters league, and all your friends are in the gold league...how in any sense, would playing custom games with them be helpful?
Search for a community who is at your level and willing to train with you. I don't know... maybe tl.net?
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I think BNet2 needs:
1) Separate MMRs for each played race (T,P,Z and R)
2) Ability to automatically search for an opponent in your conditions: opponent's race and/or map being played. These matches would NOT count for your ladder points.
3) Ability to watch replays along with other people (as in BNet1 IIRC)
4) Periodic map pool rotation.
5) Maybe add a Bo3 or Bo5 ladder/option.
#2 might suffer if there is not enough people giving it a try, but as of now I don't think we are at that low population level yet. #5 would be very nice but would probably take some time to implement/potentially suffer from population problem as well.
These options would not only make a lot of sense, but would also encourage people to diversify their playstyle/race, making strategies evolve at a faster rate. It would provide more variety to fight the stagnation some are starting to feel.
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On February 14 2011 12:55 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 12:52 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 07:44 Arisen wrote:On February 14 2011 07:21 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 06:42 Arisen wrote:On February 14 2011 05:12 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 05:02 101toss wrote:On February 14 2011 04:54 stormchaser wrote:
Starcraft 2 is fine when it comes to the ladder. The real problem is that the community continually compares a 7 month (?) old game to a game thats been around for YEARS. What you fail to see is the framework has already been there. BW was in the dark ages of gaming. SC2 is in the year 2010, with plenty of resources and feedback available. A 7 month old game released with no LAN? No search function for games? Region locked? Damn, even consoles have more flexibility than SC2. Once again, and I'm not sure why this has to be constantly pointed out, SC2 lacks some of those features, specifically the LAN, because those features were abused in the original. Yeah, well should they start releasing computers without the ability to access the internet? Because, you know, some people used the internet to look up child porn and steal movies/music. No. That's stupid.Control the abuse, not the service that's being abused. That is how they control the abuse, smart guy. Obviously, and I'm saying its a shitty solution that reflects that they care less about the game and more about profit margins. They COULD have LAN and stop the abuse, but they don't want to put that effort in, and I as well as anyone else who thinks that this is stupid should speak up about it, or it will never get implimented. If you think the game is perfect how it is, that's fine, however there are a LOT of people (including a large number of professional players) who want things like LAN, better custom game support, custom ladders, etc. who can, will, and should keep pressure on Blizzard to change the game. Once again I will state this so that you understand. There is not a LAN PRECISELY because it has been misused. There is always a way around any sort of software controls, so the only way Blizzard can ensure that they can control the game at a large-enough scale is by not allowing LANs. All the BW fanboys created this situation-- if they hate it so much, they should start showing Blizzard behavior that won't make Blizzard afraid, rather than continuing to threaten to do exactly what Blizzard is trying to prevent from happening. Blizzard will probably be more lenient if it stops seeing "ZOMG LET'S MAKE OUR OWN LADDER" threads every day. No one is asking why they did it, that's clear and has been stated multiple times. People question IF they should have done it and THAT they are unsatisfied. There is a difference between understanding and acceptance.
Actually, I thought Blizzard's official explanation for no LAN is "We're gonna make Battle.net 2.0 so good that you won't want LAN". Highly doubt anyone bought it though. 
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I think users arent that faithful
i mean the supper dupper 3-4k masters from tl are, but the rest actually go play something else when there is nothing new for months. I think the biggest problem with ladder is lack of rewards ....
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I agree with everything with this post and I also think Blizzard needs to make it so people can be moderators in channels. Its really annoying having someone you don't like in your channel and not being able to do anything about it. Sure you can ignore/block them but you can still see what they say in the channel. New maps, more accounts per person and ban feature.
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On February 14 2011 23:38 Ender985 wrote:1) Separate MMRs for each played race (T,P,Z and R)
I would very much like to see this implemented. Bnet has separate ladder placements for every combination of players that you use for team games. I have half a dozen setups in different team brackets all with their own MMR and placements. I think that it would be great to bring that concept to 1v1. You would have a separate league placement for each race, so you can actually play competitive games with every race via Quick Match.
The matchmaking system seems really good to me as I'm almost always matched up with another player of comparable skill when playing my main race. When I try to offrace on the ladder, I usually get rolled. It's not all that fun for me and likely the other player (even though they get the win.) Separate MMRs and league placements for each race would be wonderful. I understand that custom games can be used to remedy this somewhat, but it would be so nice to just select an offrace and hit the Quick Match button!
Also, hello TL.net forums. =]
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Italy12246 Posts
Obviously no Lan support sucks, there's no denying that, and different leagues for different races would also be so much better.
Look on the bright side of things however: first off, the game is REALLY young, there's still a lot more to come. Also keep in mind that Blizzard is known for being very good at balancing games, but they also do so -very- slowly. If the game still feels off/the map pool isn't great/whatever, say, by the time Heart of the Swarm is released, then these concerns are valid; however panicking right now is just too early imo. Starcraft 2 is meant to last for at least a decade like its predecessor, so give it some time 
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On February 14 2011 22:57 Prime`Rib wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 19:26 Arisen wrote:
1
"Maps," my friend continued on "aren't even the only problem. Why can't I choose to play on metalopolis, instead of getting a random map? Why Can't I choose to play vs. Terran instead of vs a random race? In Brood War, I'd spend entire practice sessions on specific maps on a specific matchup I was having trouble with, and it lead to interesting play. You couldn't do the exact same thing ZvT on python as you could ZvT on Fighting Spirit. The way the ladder itself was structured led to more interesting plays based on maps. Do you know how hard it is to develop a specific style on a specific map in star2 without a lot of very good practice partners? You have to pray that map/match up comes up on the random ladder to get some practice."
2
"Why," he exclaimed "can I only have one account per game? If I'm a competitive player vying for top 200 and I want to play around with protoss on the ladder, I'm risking allot of points. Why can't I just have a separate account? What if I'm having allot of problems with a specific map, and I'm really struggling with zvp on one of these new maps that blizz puts out, what am I going to do? Suck it up and get my ass handed to me a bunch? In BW I'd reset my account, play against some D players and really find some timings that I could abuse at those higher levels without being worried all the time about all the stuff those better players could do to me."
Another good set of points, I thought. Allot of people would disagree with the last point, as the whole "smurfing problem" could get out of hand, but to be honest, I think that resetting your account to find these holes and timings you could abuse was such a good way to improve in BW (listen to Day9's old podcast named "Why You should play against worse players") for an overview of the concept.
3
"It seems," he concluded, "they're just trying to create a situation where they can ream the game for as much money as it's worth. People will clamor for LAN latency for months, then they'll come along and say 'good news, we'll be releasing a patch that implements LAN latency...for a fee'. They'll start selling map packs, or whatever they can get away with. I hope I'm wrong, but that just seems the direction things are going, and if that's the case, I'm fine with going back to BW."
The whole conversation was pretty eye opening to me. I of course, wanted allot of the same things he wanted, but I never stopped to think that Blizzard being so inflexible about providing these sorts of things might lead people to stop playing because they're getting bored with it, or just are frustrated with Blizzard that much. It seems to me like, if these new maps are just more of the same and blizzard continues refusing community maps, how long before casual competitive players (read non-pros) just drop away?
Your friend is just ignorant. If you consider his conversation is eye opener, you just got brainwashed. Before i go on, please consider these 3 points: 1. What does ladder mean to you? 2. If you play a game on ladder, do you expect to win? 3. If you know that playing against certain race on certain map will have a near 80% win rate, would you likely to queue that map more often? If ladder means nothing to you, then you can play custom games all day and be happy. However, if you are competitive like me, you will make sure that if you play a game, you want to be the winner. 1.Your friend want to pick his opponent's race on his map's choice on ladder. Maybe your friend has good intention of practicing, but he forgot about other players who wants to advances through the ladder. It is the ladder. Everyone wants to be the winner, no one wants to take a loss. Everyone will queue maps that favor their race. This will lead to a long queue time, which i assure you there will be a outcry how Blizzard is garbage, money-hungry company that make you waiting too long for game. Also, no one will take ladder seriously because it does not prove your skill. It only proves how abusive you can get. 2.Again your friend is just pure ignorant and stubborn. He wants to off-race and doesn't want to lose ladder points. Is he a fucking retard or what? So he wants smurf accounts, so he can beat up newbies when he offraces on ladder? You need to tell him that he is a selfish bitch. He can offrace fine in custom games. But no, it must be ladder, right? Fucking selfish bitch. By the way, i am absolutely against smurf accounts. Smurf account is the bane of genuine new player and it is near impossible to gauge one's skill. 3.Blizzard is not inflexible about implement a community map. There are lot of good community maps. However, it is not wise to implement all of them because it would be way too many maps on ladder. The question is which one should blizzard add? When they add one map, i would be so sure that there will be demand to add another one, and another one, and another one. You get the idea.
First off, I'd like to point out that berating my friend, calling him a "fucking selfish bitch", "ignorant", "stubborn", etc without knowing him is ridiculous. Talk like this makes me think you're probably an insufferable douchenozzle who's going to miss everything cool in life and die angry. Anyway, that being said...
1. Firstly, your underlying assumptions about the ladder are flawed. The ladder doesn't prove who's best, only who is the winner. This "winning is everything" mindset makes it a perfect place to practice, dispite your presumptions. iNcontroL, for instance, on a recent VOD talks about using the ladder as his practice for tourneys because people will do anything to win, cheese, macro, agression, passivity. Everything. Somehow people assume that if you have the OPTION to choose race/map, that you HAVE to. This is not the case, and obviously allot of people love the 1 button game finding, however, players after better practice could choose to play this custom game in the same cuthroat "winning is everything" atmosphere. There are a lot of people who are offended by this type of play being on the ladder because players who abuse the system could get to a higher league faster. My response would be WHO GIVES A FUCK? Don't play these custom games against these players if this is a problem for you. The only thing hurt are people's egos.
2. Besides your obvious personality flaws, I'd like to point out that having to pay for the same game 3 times to be able to enjoy laddering as each race rubs a lot of people the wrong way. If you are competitve, but like to mess around with the other races, you're almost certainly going to lose allot more as other races than with your main race, and thus lose points. Wanting to play on the ladder as an off race is not the same as "lets roll newbs all day long as a masters league offrace and still somehow remain in bronze".
3. Actually, they are. Not one map from the community has made its way onto the PTR, just blizzard maps. There might be a good reason for this, I don't know, I don't work for Blizzard. As a player, however, if these maps are not a reasonable bit better than previous maps, I'm going to be a sad panda, because they're all blizzard maps. There are professional map makers showing new maps to Blizzard all the time, and they are ditching them in favor of their own maps, and if they are not very good, I view it as a sign of things to come, ie. more bad maps. As to new maps making people wanting new maps, well, yes, that's the general idea. You see people want a rotating map pool to keep the game fresh and interesting.
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Even though Prime`Rib worded it harshly I do agree with the points he is making. To respond with the 1,2,3:
1.
Apparently you do not care if people abuse the option of effectively choosing your map & opponent, but I can tell you many other people will. I would be one of them. The ladder is like the 'official' measure of a player's skill when put against the world (or in this case, his region). The player ranked 1st should be capable of winning in all circumstances, not just in TvZ on LT doing cliff drops and 2 rax marine pushes.
I am not against such an option though, but it should *not* count for ladder points. It should be an option added to the Custom Games, not to League Games...
2.
If you want to "mess around" with other races, do so in Custom Games. That's what they are for (among other things). Nowadays I meet mainly Diamonds+ in Custom Games, so that would be good practice for your offrace. Obviously ladder would be even better practice, but apparently your friend values his points too much so then he should simply play CGs. There is no need whatsoever for 3 accounts, that's total nonsense.
Constantly "resetting your account" like he apparently does in BW to bash on newbies is just extremely sad. Apparently he doesn't like losing, so instead he resets his own account to start owning up other people. Do you think they like to lose vs someone who actually played 1000 games already but seems to be new? Smurfs ruin the game for new people, Prime`Rib was right about that.
3.
I am not really sure about the map-issue yet. I kinda understand Blizzard for not quickly allowing 3rd party maps into the ladder, but it might be they are a bit too reserved about this. Tough one. He could simply ask around for practice partners (like you) and play the maps in Custom Games.
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On February 14 2011 21:18 Krehlmar wrote:
I don't mind if people like BW but BW lobbyist really need to get over it, your game WILL die. Yeah
Ok. Its been around for 12 years and still is the most popular esport in the world(as in more people show up for things like the OSL/MSL/ect. than any other esport in the world) and you say definitively it will die. Please.
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