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On February 14 2011 12:04 Kazang wrote:
If you really want an ICCup-like system, that isn't against the TOS (im 100% sure it's possible, perhaps not easy though), you (as in us, the community) will have to implement it.
The ladder is what is, a mass market quick game finder, it is designed to be as simple and noob friendly as possible. All the millions of players that don't even know TL exists are the main target of the ladder.
Is that holding back true competition and "free market" system of ladders, yes most certainly. But at the end of the day blizzard can't just change it to a complicated system that alienates a massive number of players, costs them money and potentially opens up a whole raft of huge security problems for b.net.
It comes back to control of their product and resource management at the end of the day,
It's the same as the lan thing, I of course would like lan, as i would like custom ladders in b.net, but in reality that isn't going to happen any time soon. And if it does it wont be the result of our words here.
I'm being a little cynical, but this is blizzard-activision we are talking about. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to do anything.
Here's an interview from Rob Pardo
Many players decide to play on ICCUP, would you allow servers like ICCUP in StarCraft II?
Neu. Because that's one of the reasons we don't have LAN play is because we do want everyone to play Battle.net we want to make sure that is a great experience. If there is a reason why people are not enjoying battle.net we want to correct it there. But we want to make sure people are playing on Battle.net.
They are using a modified version of battle.net, they are actually using your own battle.net, not LAN.
Yeah, which is even worse! That's called a pirate server.
Sorry, you're 100% wrong according to blizzard. No, it's not legal, for iCCup to work, you needed to be in a separate (modified) server. You can't go to a custom server in the first place, not to mention modifying it.
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On February 14 2011 12:22 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 12:04 Kazang wrote:
If you really want an ICCup-like system, that isn't against the TOS (im 100% sure it's possible, perhaps not easy though), you (as in us, the community) will have to implement it.
The ladder is what is, a mass market quick game finder, it is designed to be as simple and noob friendly as possible. All the millions of players that don't even know TL exists are the main target of the ladder.
Is that holding back true competition and "free market" system of ladders, yes most certainly. But at the end of the day blizzard can't just change it to a complicated system that alienates a massive number of players, costs them money and potentially opens up a whole raft of huge security problems for b.net.
It comes back to control of their product and resource management at the end of the day,
It's the same as the lan thing, I of course would like lan, as i would like custom ladders in b.net, but in reality that isn't going to happen any time soon. And if it does it wont be the result of our words here.
I'm being a little cynical, but this is blizzard-activision we are talking about. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to do anything. Here's an interview from Rob Pardo Many players decide to play on ICCUP, would you allow servers like ICCUP in StarCraft II?Neu. Because that's one of the reasons we don't have LAN play is because we do want everyone to play Battle.net we want to make sure that is a great experience. If there is a reason why people are not enjoying battle.net we want to correct it there. But we want to make sure people are playing on Battle.net. They are using a modified version of battle.net, they are actually using your own battle.net, not LAN.Yeah, which is even worse! That's called a pirate server. No, it's not legal, for iCCup to work, you needed to be in a separate (modified) server. You can't go to a custom server in the first place, not to mention modifying it.
"Battle.net" and "great experience" does not compute
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On February 14 2011 12:22 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 12:04 Kazang wrote:
If you really want an ICCup-like system, that isn't against the TOS (im 100% sure it's possible, perhaps not easy though), you (as in us, the community) will have to implement it.
The ladder is what is, a mass market quick game finder, it is designed to be as simple and noob friendly as possible. All the millions of players that don't even know TL exists are the main target of the ladder.
Is that holding back true competition and "free market" system of ladders, yes most certainly. But at the end of the day blizzard can't just change it to a complicated system that alienates a massive number of players, costs them money and potentially opens up a whole raft of huge security problems for b.net.
It comes back to control of their product and resource management at the end of the day,
It's the same as the lan thing, I of course would like lan, as i would like custom ladders in b.net, but in reality that isn't going to happen any time soon. And if it does it wont be the result of our words here.
I'm being a little cynical, but this is blizzard-activision we are talking about. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to do anything. Here's an interview from Rob Pardo Many players decide to play on ICCUP, would you allow servers like ICCUP in StarCraft II?Neu. Because that's one of the reasons we don't have LAN play is because we do want everyone to play Battle.net we want to make sure that is a great experience. If there is a reason why people are not enjoying battle.net we want to correct it there. But we want to make sure people are playing on Battle.net. They are using a modified version of battle.net, they are actually using your own battle.net, not LAN.Yeah, which is even worse! That's called a pirate server. No, it's not legal, for iCCup to work, you needed to be in a separate (modified) server. You can't go to a custom server in the first place, not to mention modifying it.
Interviews like this really disappoint me. To me it sounds like:
"Neu. Because we prioritize reducing piracy over everything else and therefore LAN? Over my dead body. If there is a reason why people are not enjoying battle.net then we'll just ignore them for a while and if it gets too bad, we'll make a small change after about a year. We need to make sure absolutely everything is under our control so that we don't repeat the blasphemy of organizations like kespa making money without paying us".
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On February 14 2011 07:44 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 07:21 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 06:42 Arisen wrote:On February 14 2011 05:12 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 05:02 101toss wrote:On February 14 2011 04:54 stormchaser wrote:
Starcraft 2 is fine when it comes to the ladder. The real problem is that the community continually compares a 7 month (?) old game to a game thats been around for YEARS. What you fail to see is the framework has already been there. BW was in the dark ages of gaming. SC2 is in the year 2010, with plenty of resources and feedback available. A 7 month old game released with no LAN? No search function for games? Region locked? Damn, even consoles have more flexibility than SC2. Once again, and I'm not sure why this has to be constantly pointed out, SC2 lacks some of those features, specifically the LAN, because those features were abused in the original. Yeah, well should they start releasing computers without the ability to access the internet? Because, you know, some people used the internet to look up child porn and steal movies/music. No. That's stupid.Control the abuse, not the service that's being abused. That is how they control the abuse, smart guy. Obviously, and I'm saying its a shitty solution that reflects that they care less about the game and more about profit margins. They COULD have LAN and stop the abuse, but they don't want to put that effort in, and I as well as anyone else who thinks that this is stupid should speak up about it, or it will never get implimented. If you think the game is perfect how it is, that's fine, however there are a LOT of people (including a large number of professional players) who want things like LAN, better custom game support, custom ladders, etc. who can, will, and should keep pressure on Blizzard to change the game.
Once again I will state this so that you understand. There is not a LAN PRECISELY because it has been misused. There is always a way around any sort of software controls, so the only way Blizzard can ensure that they can control the game at a large-enough scale is by not allowing LANs.
All the BW fanboys created this situation-- if they hate it so much, they should start showing Blizzard behavior that won't make Blizzard afraid, rather than continuing to threaten to do exactly what Blizzard is trying to prevent from happening. Blizzard will probably be more lenient if it stops seeing "ZOMG LET'S MAKE OUR OWN LADDER" threads every day.
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On February 14 2011 12:22 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 12:04 Kazang wrote:
If you really want an ICCup-like system, that isn't against the TOS (im 100% sure it's possible, perhaps not easy though), you (as in us, the community) will have to implement it.
The ladder is what is, a mass market quick game finder, it is designed to be as simple and noob friendly as possible. All the millions of players that don't even know TL exists are the main target of the ladder.
Is that holding back true competition and "free market" system of ladders, yes most certainly. But at the end of the day blizzard can't just change it to a complicated system that alienates a massive number of players, costs them money and potentially opens up a whole raft of huge security problems for b.net.
It comes back to control of their product and resource management at the end of the day,
It's the same as the lan thing, I of course would like lan, as i would like custom ladders in b.net, but in reality that isn't going to happen any time soon. And if it does it wont be the result of our words here.
I'm being a little cynical, but this is blizzard-activision we are talking about. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to do anything. Here's an interview from Rob Pardo Many players decide to play on ICCUP, would you allow servers like ICCUP in StarCraft II?Neu. Because that's one of the reasons we don't have LAN play is because we do want everyone to play Battle.net we want to make sure that is a great experience. If there is a reason why people are not enjoying battle.net we want to correct it there. But we want to make sure people are playing on Battle.net. They are using a modified version of battle.net, they are actually using your own battle.net, not LAN.Yeah, which is even worse! That's called a pirate server. Sorry, you're 100% wrong according to blizzard. No, it's not legal, for iCCup to work, you needed to be in a separate (modified) server. You can't go to a custom server in the first place, not to mention modifying it.
It would help if they actually took care of it. If they don't the community will take care of itself.
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On February 14 2011 12:52 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 07:44 Arisen wrote:On February 14 2011 07:21 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 06:42 Arisen wrote:On February 14 2011 05:12 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 05:02 101toss wrote:On February 14 2011 04:54 stormchaser wrote:
Starcraft 2 is fine when it comes to the ladder. The real problem is that the community continually compares a 7 month (?) old game to a game thats been around for YEARS. What you fail to see is the framework has already been there. BW was in the dark ages of gaming. SC2 is in the year 2010, with plenty of resources and feedback available. A 7 month old game released with no LAN? No search function for games? Region locked? Damn, even consoles have more flexibility than SC2. Once again, and I'm not sure why this has to be constantly pointed out, SC2 lacks some of those features, specifically the LAN, because those features were abused in the original. Yeah, well should they start releasing computers without the ability to access the internet? Because, you know, some people used the internet to look up child porn and steal movies/music. No. That's stupid.Control the abuse, not the service that's being abused. That is how they control the abuse, smart guy. Obviously, and I'm saying its a shitty solution that reflects that they care less about the game and more about profit margins. They COULD have LAN and stop the abuse, but they don't want to put that effort in, and I as well as anyone else who thinks that this is stupid should speak up about it, or it will never get implimented. If you think the game is perfect how it is, that's fine, however there are a LOT of people (including a large number of professional players) who want things like LAN, better custom game support, custom ladders, etc. who can, will, and should keep pressure on Blizzard to change the game. Once again I will state this so that you understand. There is not a LAN PRECISELY because it has been misused. There is always a way around any sort of software controls, so the only way Blizzard can ensure that they can control the game at a large-enough scale is by not allowing LANs. All the BW fanboys created this situation-- if they hate it so much, they should start showing Blizzard behavior that won't make Blizzard afraid, rather than continuing to threaten to do exactly what Blizzard is trying to prevent from happening. Blizzard will probably be more lenient if it stops seeing "ZOMG LET'S MAKE OUR OWN LADDER" threads every day.
No one is asking why they did it, that's clear and has been stated multiple times. People question IF they should have done it and THAT they are unsatisfied. There is a difference between understanding and acceptance.
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On February 14 2011 12:55 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 12:52 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 07:44 Arisen wrote:On February 14 2011 07:21 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 06:42 Arisen wrote:On February 14 2011 05:12 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 05:02 101toss wrote:On February 14 2011 04:54 stormchaser wrote:
Starcraft 2 is fine when it comes to the ladder. The real problem is that the community continually compares a 7 month (?) old game to a game thats been around for YEARS. What you fail to see is the framework has already been there. BW was in the dark ages of gaming. SC2 is in the year 2010, with plenty of resources and feedback available. A 7 month old game released with no LAN? No search function for games? Region locked? Damn, even consoles have more flexibility than SC2. Once again, and I'm not sure why this has to be constantly pointed out, SC2 lacks some of those features, specifically the LAN, because those features were abused in the original. Yeah, well should they start releasing computers without the ability to access the internet? Because, you know, some people used the internet to look up child porn and steal movies/music. No. That's stupid.Control the abuse, not the service that's being abused. That is how they control the abuse, smart guy. Obviously, and I'm saying its a shitty solution that reflects that they care less about the game and more about profit margins. They COULD have LAN and stop the abuse, but they don't want to put that effort in, and I as well as anyone else who thinks that this is stupid should speak up about it, or it will never get implimented. If you think the game is perfect how it is, that's fine, however there are a LOT of people (including a large number of professional players) who want things like LAN, better custom game support, custom ladders, etc. who can, will, and should keep pressure on Blizzard to change the game. Once again I will state this so that you understand. There is not a LAN PRECISELY because it has been misused. There is always a way around any sort of software controls, so the only way Blizzard can ensure that they can control the game at a large-enough scale is by not allowing LANs. All the BW fanboys created this situation-- if they hate it so much, they should start showing Blizzard behavior that won't make Blizzard afraid, rather than continuing to threaten to do exactly what Blizzard is trying to prevent from happening. Blizzard will probably be more lenient if it stops seeing "ZOMG LET'S MAKE OUR OWN LADDER" threads every day. No one is asking why they did it, that's clear and has been stated multiple times. People question IF they should have done it and THAT they are unsatisfied. There is a difference between understanding and acceptance.
And what I am saying is that your acceptance is not required. Not only that, but the continued displays of a lack of acceptance are precisely what causes Blizzard to entrench in its position.
And I believe that yes, from a business standpoint they should have done what they did. They obviously value their IP, so why not protect it? Anything Blizzard gives us is more than they are required to. They have made enough money off of SC2 that it would be perfectly reasonable for them to never touch it again and be happy with the profit, balance be damned. But they are willing to work with the community. The fact that they are so willing to work with the community is amazing, and their encouragement of its development is equally amazing...however, they are willing to work with the community on Blizzard's terms, which I think is perfectly reasonable.
That the community has somehow decided that it is entitled to a certain level of attention from Blizzard is what baffles me, since Blizzard more than meets its obligation to the fans.
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i would haveto agree that this game would be better w/o blizzard maps and with cross server, but the game is new and maybe when it has been out for like what 12 years it will be remembered as amazing too.
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On February 14 2011 14:24 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 12:55 Arisen wrote:On February 14 2011 12:52 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 07:44 Arisen wrote:On February 14 2011 07:21 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 06:42 Arisen wrote:On February 14 2011 05:12 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 05:02 101toss wrote:On February 14 2011 04:54 stormchaser wrote:
Starcraft 2 is fine when it comes to the ladder. The real problem is that the community continually compares a 7 month (?) old game to a game thats been around for YEARS. What you fail to see is the framework has already been there. BW was in the dark ages of gaming. SC2 is in the year 2010, with plenty of resources and feedback available. A 7 month old game released with no LAN? No search function for games? Region locked? Damn, even consoles have more flexibility than SC2. Once again, and I'm not sure why this has to be constantly pointed out, SC2 lacks some of those features, specifically the LAN, because those features were abused in the original. Yeah, well should they start releasing computers without the ability to access the internet? Because, you know, some people used the internet to look up child porn and steal movies/music. No. That's stupid.Control the abuse, not the service that's being abused. That is how they control the abuse, smart guy. Obviously, and I'm saying its a shitty solution that reflects that they care less about the game and more about profit margins. They COULD have LAN and stop the abuse, but they don't want to put that effort in, and I as well as anyone else who thinks that this is stupid should speak up about it, or it will never get implimented. If you think the game is perfect how it is, that's fine, however there are a LOT of people (including a large number of professional players) who want things like LAN, better custom game support, custom ladders, etc. who can, will, and should keep pressure on Blizzard to change the game. Once again I will state this so that you understand. There is not a LAN PRECISELY because it has been misused. There is always a way around any sort of software controls, so the only way Blizzard can ensure that they can control the game at a large-enough scale is by not allowing LANs. All the BW fanboys created this situation-- if they hate it so much, they should start showing Blizzard behavior that won't make Blizzard afraid, rather than continuing to threaten to do exactly what Blizzard is trying to prevent from happening. Blizzard will probably be more lenient if it stops seeing "ZOMG LET'S MAKE OUR OWN LADDER" threads every day. No one is asking why they did it, that's clear and has been stated multiple times. People question IF they should have done it and THAT they are unsatisfied. There is a difference between understanding and acceptance. And what I am saying is that your acceptance is not required. Not only that, but the continued displays of a lack of acceptance are precisely what causes Blizzard to entrench in its position. And I believe that yes, from a business standpoint they should have done what they did. They obviously value their IP, so why not protect it? Anything Blizzard gives us is more than they are required to. They have made enough money off of SC2 that it would be perfectly reasonable for them to never touch it again and be happy with the profit, balance be damned. But they are willing to work with the community. The fact that they are so willing to work with the community is amazing, and their encouragement of its development is equally amazing...however, they are willing to work with the community on Blizzard's terms, which I think is perfectly reasonable. That the community has somehow decided that it is entitled to a certain level of attention from Blizzard is what baffles me, since Blizzard more than meets its obligation to the fans.
You're right, the community has decided it is entitled to a certain level of attention. The reason, is something called economics.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/economics
We, as players are what as known as consumers. Blizzard, as a buisness provides a good and/or a service, in this case, a video game, in exchange for payment. Your point would be vailid if Blizzard had not already announced 2 expansions. So, in order for Blizzard to make as much money possible from their 2 expansions, they need as many people who played WoL to want to buy HotS as possible. Each WoL player is a potential sale for HotS. In terms of competitive RTS games, like starcraft 2, one of the major reasons people will want to stay current (and thus buy the expansion) is a the designers willingness to hear concerns and address them, as well as their ability to keep the game "fresh".
Essentially, keeping consumers happy is an investment. Programmers spend time/resources keeping a game balanced in anticipation of future profits (expansion/sequel sales). Online games are unique in this aspect. It's not enough to put out a good game to begin with, as may be the case with other generes, such as RPGs. Future sales are dependant on maintaining a user base. A major factor in keeping that user base is keeping them happy, and keeping gameplay fresh. Thus, we have balance patches, maps, content, etc.
No where will you find a better example than World of Warcraft. After being around for years, it maintains one of the largest user bases in the world of gaming, and they do so by constantly updating the game to better satisfy the users. As a result, throngs of people play $15 a month in addition to $40 once a year for a new expansion. They know that if they keep playing, Blizzard will keep updating things to keep consumers happy. In the world of the competitive RTS, this translates to balance patches, diverse map pools, etc.
If a game developer chooses to ignore feedback, fewer players will keep playing or be willing to buy the expansions/sequel, which hurts future profits. If Blizzard chooses to ignore player feedback and remains in this "entrenched position" then they will sell less copies of their expansion set. So, no, it's not "amazing" that they choose to respond to community pleas, its a smart buisness decision that will allow them to sell more copies of expansion sets. That simple. Future profits hinge on keeping consumers happy. They are already losing players due to some of the problems pointed out, and as time goes on, if they remain inflexible in reaching a compromise, the problem will only compound itself. If they released a game, said "I don't care if there are problems, you already bought it, fuck you" then people just aren't going to continue to buy their products at the same level they did.
Sorry for the long rant, but Blizzard apologists make my wiener shrink. Blizzard is not an altruistic force of good, nor is it a brooding force of evil, it's a profit seeking venture. It's profits hinge on keeping consumers happy and coming back for more, and if they remain inflexible on some issues, their future profit margins will dip. People who say you have not room to critisize because they're a company looking out for profits aren't really taking into acount more than one facet of the company, and I beg people start looking at things long term. Citing that the game is new as a reason for complacency is a horrible way to think. Be vocal, tell them you want a change, it's the only way a change will be implemented. They listen to feedback for a reason, you know.
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The ladder is one of the reasons it's so easy for me to continue playing this game. I can't begin to tell you just how frustrating it was for me to find a game in BW most times because once I'd spent 5 minutes just FINDING a game on the list with a green connection or on the map I wanted to play (or waiting for someone to join my own created game and sticking around long enough for me to click "Start Game"), people would see my record and just ban me from their game either for not being good enough, or being too good, or not playing the right race, or just because they didn't like my screen-name. In SC2, I click "Play Now" and I get to play an entire game against someone else that's approximately at the same level of playing ability as I am...
It's.fucking.FANTASTIC!
The maps... need some work.
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If the Ladder consisted of Xel'Naga Caverns and two other maps designed just as well, I might never stop playing.
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On February 14 2011 14:24 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 12:55 Arisen wrote:On February 14 2011 12:52 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 07:44 Arisen wrote:On February 14 2011 07:21 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 06:42 Arisen wrote:On February 14 2011 05:12 FrostOtter wrote:On February 14 2011 05:02 101toss wrote:On February 14 2011 04:54 stormchaser wrote:
Starcraft 2 is fine when it comes to the ladder. The real problem is that the community continually compares a 7 month (?) old game to a game thats been around for YEARS. What you fail to see is the framework has already been there. BW was in the dark ages of gaming. SC2 is in the year 2010, with plenty of resources and feedback available. A 7 month old game released with no LAN? No search function for games? Region locked? Damn, even consoles have more flexibility than SC2. Once again, and I'm not sure why this has to be constantly pointed out, SC2 lacks some of those features, specifically the LAN, because those features were abused in the original. Yeah, well should they start releasing computers without the ability to access the internet? Because, you know, some people used the internet to look up child porn and steal movies/music. No. That's stupid.Control the abuse, not the service that's being abused. That is how they control the abuse, smart guy. Obviously, and I'm saying its a shitty solution that reflects that they care less about the game and more about profit margins. They COULD have LAN and stop the abuse, but they don't want to put that effort in, and I as well as anyone else who thinks that this is stupid should speak up about it, or it will never get implimented. If you think the game is perfect how it is, that's fine, however there are a LOT of people (including a large number of professional players) who want things like LAN, better custom game support, custom ladders, etc. who can, will, and should keep pressure on Blizzard to change the game. Once again I will state this so that you understand. There is not a LAN PRECISELY because it has been misused. There is always a way around any sort of software controls, so the only way Blizzard can ensure that they can control the game at a large-enough scale is by not allowing LANs. All the BW fanboys created this situation-- if they hate it so much, they should start showing Blizzard behavior that won't make Blizzard afraid, rather than continuing to threaten to do exactly what Blizzard is trying to prevent from happening. Blizzard will probably be more lenient if it stops seeing "ZOMG LET'S MAKE OUR OWN LADDER" threads every day. No one is asking why they did it, that's clear and has been stated multiple times. People question IF they should have done it and THAT they are unsatisfied. There is a difference between understanding and acceptance. And what I am saying is that your acceptance is not required. Not only that, but the continued displays of a lack of acceptance are precisely what causes Blizzard to entrench in its position. And I believe that yes, from a business standpoint they should have done what they did. They obviously value their IP, so why not protect it? Anything Blizzard gives us is more than they are required to. They have made enough money off of SC2 that it would be perfectly reasonable for them to never touch it again and be happy with the profit, balance be damned. But they are willing to work with the community. The fact that they are so willing to work with the community is amazing, and their encouragement of its development is equally amazing...however, they are willing to work with the community on Blizzard's terms, which I think is perfectly reasonable. That the community has somehow decided that it is entitled to a certain level of attention from Blizzard is what baffles me, since Blizzard more than meets its obligation to the fans.
I couldnt help myself from reading your post and facepalming, a guy already made a very long post addressing some stuff, so ill just write it more simple and direct, i will not go into the IP stuff since i know its something that has been discussed a lot already all over TL, on the money issue, they have not, and will never make enough money out of anything they own, they will always try and push out more of it as long as they can, common capitalist thinking, nothing out of the ordinary here, but your statement is wrong, they are also, as you can see by reading this thread, not willing to work WITH or FOR the community, since the community is, and from the start, has been asking for stuff that has not been even taken into consideration, nor is going to be implemented until the game profits start to decline, again, usual work policies for any company that sustains a service, and again, proving wrong your argument.
Acti-blizzard has not met its obligations to neither the fans nor the community.
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So the things the op pointed out, easilly fixed. A second account? nobody's stopping you from buying another SC2 copy, not so difficult.
Playing a specific map, custom game. This is where blizzard should help by adding the option to open to public with conditions (like selecting opponent skill and race). These games should still not count towards ladder MMR. Would take a hell of a lot longer to get games though.
Another issue with being able to play custom games vs specific skill players and races, most of the gameplay would shift towards custom instead of ladder.
If you're a lower level player ladder is great at showing your progress atm while not discouraging play (hey, I'm not 1000000th in the world, I'm 50 in gold). For everyone good, there's always top 200. If you care you're 10000th it's the same as caring if you're 50000 or 100000, still middle of the pack.
The way Blizzard made the game was to entice new players to come in and keep playing and they did a pretty good job at it. Going to an old request, chat channels are pretty much worthless since there's so so so many more systems that will always be better than battle.net, being much older and established, people just like to nitpick and have this stupid nostalgia for something they don't really need that was in bnet 1. Get over it, you communicate with tons of people every day on the internet without using bnet chat channels, do you really need those when you're on IRC servers, gazillion messenger services and a friends list that also has the option of choosing between friend type, as in online sc2 buddy and real person I know and somewhat trust?
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I think it's hilarious this guy is in college and still thinks 'allot' is the word he was going for. But other than that, I do agree that a single account and random maps/matchups are lame.
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Honestly, one of the reasons I quit ICCUP was that the ladder was so frustrating. Taking 20 minutes to find another D- (I sucked back then ;_;) player, only to get bunker rushed 3 minutes into the game, was not fun.
I think the tools are all there for the community to get a good "ladder" going within bnet. Maybe making a channel called iccupmapdiamond where diamond league players got together to arrange games on ICCUP maps (and iccupmapplatinum, iccupmapbronze, etc). If promoted heavily enough, it could work. The 100-person per channel limit would be kind of a bitch there, though. I suppose really popular ICCUP maps would end up getting their own channel sets, like DiamondTestbug or whatever.
Obviously, it's not an elegant solution, but it's a decent start. And it might be easier to lobby Blizzard for improvements to doing things their way than for something that makes it possible to pirate the game.
Right now, the worst-case scenario of what a "custom ladder" will look like is this: You play the Blizzard ladder to get into a league, which is a decent arbiter of skill. You then go to ICCUP and join their chat channel (if the in-game chats don't work well enough for this purpose). You find a player of similar skill who wants to play on a given map, and you go play him.
The best-case scenario we can realistically hope for is that Blizzard allows for custom divisions, that we can use custom maps to determine ranking in.
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the is deffiantly nothing wrong with the actual ladder and being put agaisnt people your own level, that I think is great with the current system, I do wonder why its taking so long to implement clan channels and clans interface into this game, one of the things I really liked in WC3 was this feature.
not being able to play Cross realm is annoying but then again, you can easily by another copy from these regions and im quite happy that you can only make one chracter per copy, I use to love playing as different races ebfore now but I deffiantly see the benefit of making people play on one character and not have to worry to getting smurfed like what use to happen in Warcraft 3.
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no lan means fail.
tournaments with disconnects and lags - its LOL
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On February 12 2011 19:26 Arisen wrote:
[...]
"Maps," my friend continued on "aren't even the only problem. Why can't I choose to play on metalopolis, instead of getting a random map? Why Can't I choose to play vs. Terran instead of vs a random race? In Brood War, I'd spend entire practice sessions on specific maps on a specific matchup I was having trouble with, and it lead to interesting play. You couldn't do the exact same thing ZvT on python as you could ZvT on Fighting Spirit. The way the ladder itself was structured led to more interesting plays based on maps. Do you know how hard it is to develop a specific style on a specific map in star2 without a lot of very good practice partners? You have to pray that map/match up comes up on the random ladder to get some practice."
[...]
"Why," he exclaimed "can I only have one account per game? If I'm a competitive player vying for top 200 and I want to play around with protoss on the ladder, I'm risking allot of points. Why can't I just have a separate account? What if I'm having allot of problems with a specific map, and I'm really struggling with zvp on one of these new maps that blizz puts out, what am I going to do? Suck it up and get my ass handed to me a bunch? In BW I'd reset my account, play against some D players and really find some timings that I could abuse at those higher levels without being worried all the time about all the stuff those better players could do to me."
Another good set of points, I thought. Allot of people would disagree with the last point, as the whole "smurfing problem" could get out of hand, but to be honest, I think that resetting your account to find these holes and timings you could abuse was such a good way to improve in BW (listen to Day9's old podcast named "Why You should play against worse players") for an overview of the concept.
[...]
Well this are some very interesting points I never thought of.
If Blizzard would give me (as I can only speak for myself) the opportunity to train specific match-ups without having to find a lots of practice partners I would enjoy laddering much more.
I don't mind having no second account to play on, but I really get your point and hope Blizzard might consider changing it in some way (such as 2 or 3 chars per account).
I hope Blizzard will at least change their map system, so custom maps can be played on ladder.
As here are so many posts how this could be implemented, I won't comment on that 
OK, one comment:
I don't know the post right now, but someone suggested not blocking maps, but being able to vote (custom) maps into the pool, which I like a lot.
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retards on ladder hurts SC2
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Adding and removing a map say, every 2-4 weeks shouldn't be that hard, and would keep the ladder quite fresh when it comes to maps.
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EPT
