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I think this post will be lost in the middle of this thread but heres how I see the ladder suggestion from someone who played all blizzard RTS
Forcing the ladder upon the players is not really the best way to dictate the experience.
There should be several ladders, a community should be able to have its ladder, a TL ladder, or a ladder for a specific tournament.
Also, you could have begginer ladders with 2v2s and whatnots.
In sum, I think mandatory global ladder way that blizzard is doing right now is decent, but its lack of flexibily and community involvement in everyday ladder games are greatly staggering the games, its what made BW great, and it could make sc2 the best game of all times.
give us the power to create our own ladders (even if its only the mighty ones) iccup would make a ladder ingame and you wouldnt have to worry about maps.
The whole point that makes blizzard ladder bad, is that altho they have a decent data system behind them, they dont really use it to no good when it comes to keeping the ladder spicy, and people with that desire to get into game and have a good time playing SC2
Most of my friends see sc2 as a boring grind, and I think the way the ladder works is a big reason of why so many people feel like not playing, the system just imposes itself on you, and custom interface is kinda weak (no names), you should always feel like you have a place where you can sparr with good random people, but its not really counting on the big leagues.
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your friend is correct in everything. Part of the reason I quit playing sc2 was because all that crap. Maybe once they fix all or most of that I may come back.
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On February 13 2011 16:49 SpoR wrote:
your friend is correct in everything. Part of the reason I quit playing sc2 was because all that crap. Maybe once they fix all or most of that I may come back.
When I quit something I don't generally put time into talking about it on the internet, so you'll forgive me if I don't quite believe you.
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Erm, this is sc not wow. People will stop playing it, and in some time, only the biggest fans will stay. And in my opinion, people are truly spoiled.
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On February 13 2011 23:01 Antoniuss wrote:
Erm, this is sc not wow. People will stop playing it, and in some time, only the biggest fans will stay. And in my opinion, people are truly spoiled.
just like in bw,wc3,counterstrike,quake etc aight?
dont think you understand that some people enjoy the competive aspect of a game instead of a endless carrot on a stick.
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the ladder system is really not bad at all tbh, the only huge huge problem is the stagnant map pool.
getting pitted against people whose skill is not literally leagues (more than 1 league) different from you with the slightly favored and favored balance system (or at least an attempt at balance) for adjusting points allocated is quite OK. not sure about 2v2s, because they're, to be brutally honest, unimportant.
and about comparison to iCCup, im not sure if you can really compare it that way. in SC2, one can really master a build against an enemy of a certain race, repeat it on maps that favor that build really well all the way and hit diamond or masters easily. terran MMM against zerg on any map you like for example, learn a timing push or an expand build and thats it. for iCCup, you cant 3 hatch hydra your way to C- from my experience, and for the non professional level its really really being particularly good in a matchup. is it really possible to be able to be B- in a matchup and not C in another? BW strategy is so frickin' standard, win/lose dependancy on luck has been reduced and is still reducing as professional competition goes on. and the most funny thing is that diamond climbing to masters is barely D+ climbing to C-, and <140 APM player who is not D- probably does not exist.
in other words, ladder system by blizzard for SC2 fixes the manipulation, while it is not needed in iCCup simply because the average skill there is too scarily above SC2. things are quite in order still. besides, there are builds you can drill in to get to diamond. 4gate, 3 roach and speedling all in etc.
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Personally, I think the biggest problem with the ladder is the scoring system. With the exception of the very highest levels, and players who're (for whatever reason) massively mis-ranked, it is essentially a time sink thanks to the "quantity over quality" situation that exists for anyone with a bonus pool. The whole thing (don't get me started on the quick match "achievements"...) appears to be geared up purely to cater for volume.
In a way, issues such as maps and "balance" (for everyone other than pros) are, in my opinion, a sideshow, as they're all fixable without the need for major u-tuns on Blizzards part, whereas re-orienting the ladder away from quantity and towards quality would involve going back on the core design objectives of the current ladder system - ie. to obfuscate ratings to the point of banality, then create the illusion of player success via the bonus pool.
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i think the main problem is the MAPS.
Blizz should agree to use at least GSL maps..
I can literally beg for this
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On February 12 2011 19:26 Arisen wrote:
"Maps," my friend continued on "aren't even the only problem. Why can't I choose to play on metalopolis, instead of getting a random map? Why Can't I choose to play vs. Terran instead of vs a random race? In Brood War, I'd spend entire practice sessions on specific maps on a specific matchup I was having trouble with, and it lead to interesting play. You couldn't do the exact same thing ZvT on python as you could ZvT on Fighting Spirit. The way the ladder itself was structured led to more interesting plays based on maps. Do you know how hard it is to develop a specific style on a specific map in star2 without a lot of very good practice partners? You have to pray that map/match up comes up on the random ladder to get some practice."
No dude. That's what practice partners and custom games are for. Being able to choose specific maps and matchups on the ladder would totally fuck everyone's rankings! You could just play on Steppes of war forever, doing terrible cheese and winning 80% of your games, rising quickly to higher leagues when your real overall skill sits somewhere between bronze and gold. Trust me that's a fucking terrible idea.
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Ranks don't mean much. I proxy 2 gated to masters. I'd say it's more of a map issue where rush distances are so small (ie steppes).
Then again, I remember this one dude BBS'ing his way to A-
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On February 14 2011 01:04 SpaceGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 19:26 Arisen wrote:
"Maps," my friend continued on "aren't even the only problem. Why can't I choose to play on metalopolis, instead of getting a random map? Why Can't I choose to play vs. Terran instead of vs a random race? In Brood War, I'd spend entire practice sessions on specific maps on a specific matchup I was having trouble with, and it lead to interesting play. You couldn't do the exact same thing ZvT on python as you could ZvT on Fighting Spirit. The way the ladder itself was structured led to more interesting plays based on maps. Do you know how hard it is to develop a specific style on a specific map in star2 without a lot of very good practice partners? You have to pray that map/match up comes up on the random ladder to get some practice."
No dude. That's what practice partners and custom games are for.
Agree. Nevertheless the custom games system is horrible, even RTS one decade ago were better on this aspect. The person responsible for designing this ridiculously bad system should really be hit with a stick, the first time logging in I seriously was like "what is this even".
So the OP is partially right in that there should be a system (heck, why not make it a 2nd ladder?) where you can choose everything. Maps, race of opponent, skill-level of opponent and so on for practicing purposes.
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I think one huge problem is that you can't make custom games the way you could in Brood War. Just giving us the option of custom games with custom names on whatever map we want displayed in some huge long list (complete with the obvious filters) would do SC2 a world of good.
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On February 13 2011 01:46 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 01:18 S.O.L.I.D. wrote:On February 12 2011 19:36 blith wrote:
I just don't see how they are "supporting E-sports"...
Okay a lot of people need to realize something: Blizzard is an entertainment company, NOT an eSports organization. In my opinion, anything they do for eSports is more than they're 'obligated' to, because that's NOT the reason their company exists. I don't have any links to a source, but I'm 100% sure I've heard Blizzard saying they want SC2 to become an e-sport, they even have an e-sport team working... Show nested quote +
We should be grateful that they're listening to the competitive community and attempting to better eSports.
Really? REALLY? hahaha hahaha Blizzard needs SC2 to become an e-sport. To become that SC2 needs to be competitive. The community is their best source to model SC2 as it should be.
@Second part:
Read the rest of my post. Just because they don't do everything everyone wants (which is frankly 100% impossible) doesn't mean they aren't listening to the community. Changes are happening. Even if Blizzard has an eSports team working, that's not their first priority.
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On February 13 2011 16:35 D10 wrote:
I think this post will be lost in the middle of this thread but heres how I see the ladder suggestion from someone who played all blizzard RTS
Forcing the ladder upon the players is not really the best way to dictate the experience.
There should be several ladders, a community should be able to have its ladder, a TL ladder, or a ladder for a specific tournament.
Also, you could have begginer ladders with 2v2s and whatnots.
In sum, I think mandatory global ladder way that blizzard is doing right now is decent, but its lack of flexibily and community involvement in everyday ladder games are greatly staggering the games, its what made BW great, and it could make sc2 the best game of all times.
give us the power to create our own ladders (even if its only the mighty ones) iccup would make a ladder ingame and you wouldnt have to worry about maps.
The whole point that makes blizzard ladder bad, is that altho they have a decent data system behind them, they dont really use it to no good when it comes to keeping the ladder spicy, and people with that desire to get into game and have a good time playing SC2
Most of my friends see sc2 as a boring grind, and I think the way the ladder works is a big reason of why so many people feel like not playing, the system just imposes itself on you, and custom interface is kinda weak (no names), you should always feel like you have a place where you can sparr with good random people, but its not really counting on the big leagues.
Ive actually never thought of that as being a possible solution. I like it!
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The ladder is hurting Sc2 because of the map pool.
Some maps are clearly unbalanced and not fun to play on. While on the more balanced 4 player maps, excluding DQ, you winning or losing can often be dictated by spawn positions, and the fact that spawn positions can dictate that so heavily needs to be addressed.
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Jesus Christ, give it time. Blizzard already obliged when we wanted chat. I'm sure Bnet will improve in coming years. To be honest, the ladder is one of the best introductions to competitive play I have ever seen in gaming. Rankings are pretty damn accurate, they let casual players play at their level while giving incentive to improve. Sure some sort of clan support would be nice, but figuring out the logistics and implementing it takes time and for now there are great communities (like the one we're using right now) that allow you to meet and practice with similarly competitive players, so long as you put in a modicum of effort.
Blizzard's not after your grandmother's pension so chill out about that. They have a fully supported map maker where anyone can make custom content. How does that point to some kind of Blizzard map monopoly?
I just don't see where all this Blizzard hate comes from. Just play the damn game and be patient about all the changes. Blizzard patches frequently and is actually very responsive and respectful to the community. Give it time.
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On February 14 2011 01:04 SpaceGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 19:26 Arisen wrote:
"Maps," my friend continued on "aren't even the only problem. Why can't I choose to play on metalopolis, instead of getting a random map? Why Can't I choose to play vs. Terran instead of vs a random race? In Brood War, I'd spend entire practice sessions on specific maps on a specific matchup I was having trouble with, and it lead to interesting play. You couldn't do the exact same thing ZvT on python as you could ZvT on Fighting Spirit. The way the ladder itself was structured led to more interesting plays based on maps. Do you know how hard it is to develop a specific style on a specific map in star2 without a lot of very good practice partners? You have to pray that map/match up comes up on the random ladder to get some practice."
No dude. That's what practice partners and custom games are for. Being able to choose specific maps and matchups on the ladder would totally fuck everyone's rankings! You could just play on Steppes of war forever, doing terrible cheese and winning 80% of your games, rising quickly to higher leagues when your real overall skill sits somewhere between bronze and gold. Trust me that's a fucking terrible idea.
What? No, did you even think through your post? If some guy is choosing SoW over and over cause its his strong side, I could also choose SoW being the receiving end, practising against this person, to refine my defence against it, and I would be thankful for this person, and would not give a rats ass about his rating. You seem to care too much about epeen, and too little about growth as a player, which this thread is about. Growth, not epeen.
I dont see a problem with this guy doing terrible damage rising too the Masters league doing something OP on a map. If noone wants to play vs that MU on that map, he will sooner or later be forced to play something else which will place him down a bit. Nestea practised 200 games over and over vs 2 rax marine all in, and look at him, so fucking good at defending.
I think this is a very good idea, and I would love to have some custom laddering going on.
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I stoped playing due to the limited mappool as well. As long as we dont get new ladder maps on a regular basis weeks I will not play again.
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On February 14 2011 01:51 crappen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 01:04 SpaceGhost wrote:On February 12 2011 19:26 Arisen wrote:
"Maps," my friend continued on "aren't even the only problem. Why can't I choose to play on metalopolis, instead of getting a random map? Why Can't I choose to play vs. Terran instead of vs a random race? In Brood War, I'd spend entire practice sessions on specific maps on a specific matchup I was having trouble with, and it lead to interesting play. You couldn't do the exact same thing ZvT on python as you could ZvT on Fighting Spirit. The way the ladder itself was structured led to more interesting plays based on maps. Do you know how hard it is to develop a specific style on a specific map in star2 without a lot of very good practice partners? You have to pray that map/match up comes up on the random ladder to get some practice."
No dude. That's what practice partners and custom games are for. Being able to choose specific maps and matchups on the ladder would totally fuck everyone's rankings! You could just play on Steppes of war forever, doing terrible cheese and winning 80% of your games, rising quickly to higher leagues when your real overall skill sits somewhere between bronze and gold. Trust me that's a fucking terrible idea. What? No, did you even think through your post? If some guy is choosing SoW over and over cause its his strong side, I could also choose SoW being the receiving end, practising against this person, to refine my defence against it, and I would be thankful for this person, and would not give a rats ass about his rating. You seem to care too much about epeen, and too little about growth as a player, which this thread is about. Growth, not epeen. I dont see a problem with this guy doing terrible damage rising too the Masters league doing something OP on a map. If noone wants to play vs that MU on that map, he will sooner or later be forced to play something else which will place him down a bit. Nestea practised 200 games over and over vs 2 rax marine all in, and look at him, so fucking good at defending. I think this is a very good idea, and I would love to have some custom laddering going on.
It doesn't even have to be on SoW. Someone can just ask for a certain race match-up every single game and not have to worry about anything else. I can assure you that he will not have problem finding games that way.
Unless you are a pro regularly competing in tournaments, ladder isn't for practicing only. It's supposed to rank people roughly based on their skills and allowing people to choose which map and race they want to play will only compromise the already not-so-great reliability of the ladder system even further. Apparently you don't care at all about points and leagues, but a lot of other people do care, and that's why Blizzard implemented points and leagues rather than just hidden MMR for matchmaking.
Also, you said "I could also choose SoW being the receiving end, practising against this person, to refine my defence against it", and then "If noone wants to play vs that MU on that map, he will sooner or later be forced to play something else which will place him down a bit". If there are people interested in using this idea for improvement, then he will find games on that map, right? If no one is queuing up for SoW ZvT, then your argument that people would use the opportunity to pick maps and races to genuinely improve themselves is not very convincing.
Nestea practiced those 200 games against his practice partners. It's not that difficult to find them unless you only want people good enough to compete in GSL.
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Starcraft 2 is fine when it comes to the ladder. The real problem is that the community continually compares a 7 month (?) old game to a game thats been around for YEARS.
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EPT
