EPTI think the maps are the only problem. They should be rotated.
I like the smurf idea, but in reality people may use that so that you can give a free account (in a way) to ur friends.
Is the Blizzard Ladder Hurting SC2? - Page 9
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TheDominator
New Zealand336 Posts
I think the maps are the only problem. They should be rotated. I like the smurf idea, but in reality people may use that so that you can give a free account (in a way) to ur friends. | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
(I would agree with having separate MMR/rankings for different races and that the map pool should change periodically). What Blizzard should add is some sort of actual matchmaking for non-UMS-style custom games. Maybe have it use your MMR to match you up with an opponent, but the games should not affect your ladder rank at all, and in exchange you can select the map and the matchup you want to play. This creates something like a usable practice environment where you're matched up against the same competition you'd find in a ladder game. The biggest problem I'd see with implementing this is that it may be unpopular and have long queue times. (And obviously still keep the ability to make an open-to-everyone custom game). | ||
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Xswordy
United Kingdom425 Posts
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WickedBit
United States343 Posts
Its blizzards overwhelming control on the game that may be killing it. it seems in line with how business seems to be done in the US, where companies want to control everything to get assured revenue sources to show to their share holders. Blizzard is in for the money which I support but they are going about it the wrong way and bnet 2 is one of them. There is already evidence from the social media sites that the most successful companies are those which allow lots of freedom for their users and blizzard does not seem to believe in this. If I was blizzard I would have invested on the following from day 1 - Community controlled ladders and map pool. - Custom map/replay store where there are free/paid custom maps. Blizzard gets a percentage of the revenue. Also this encourages the next dota to be formed. - Implemented a SC II tournament edition which allows LAN play. Instead of having everyone buy broadcast rights, sell them the tournament edition for a subscription fee. This will allow major lan events (GSL/MLG etc) to run without gotchas and I'm sure they will pay up the fees money for it if means a tournament without embarrassing gotchas. In short Blizzard could have made more money from just opening everything up instead of this. They have to remember than people don't mind paying for good stuff. | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
Basically, the game we have right now, while its being balanced by Blizz, and while they encourage us to play it competitively, isn't complete. So blizzard is focusing on the expansions, which wont come for years. So maybe they felt that they needed to fix something, but then they agreed that it would be better to focus on the expansions and fix the problems there. I'm not saying Blizz is greedy or mean or anything, it just makes sense to focus on that stuff first and have the overall product be good and balanced instead of just part 1. I'm fairly sure that once all 3 parts are released, Blizzard will be on top of everything, making changes for better gameplay and such, but first the expansions must come out. Spending insane amounts of time trying to balance a game, only to release an expansion and then mess it all up is probably not worth it, which would explain why they only have 2 people doing the balance. Should SC2 be played competitively right now? Yeah! Its great to watch and good for the game. But is the game incomplete? Yes, and before Blizzard gets on top of everything and focuses on balance and maps and fixing the ladder and all that nice stuff, they're probably gonna focus on the expansions. Although I agree that it would be nice if they could just put some fixes in to make the ladder better NOW, bet you all that is coming in HotS. :/ Im sad at how long i have to wait for this game to REALLY be out. | ||
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
the popularity system is also retarded and without the ladder you would essentially need to have all the organizing on teamliquid or other sites just to find a damn game against someone close to your relative skill level. ///heres a little graph i made about peoples complaining "PFFF AUTO LOSS FOR CLOSE POSITIONS!" + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/fZqTj.jpg) | ||
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ckw
United States1018 Posts
Why not just make it possible for people to submit to a vote for maps for the pool, maybe add a feature to the higher leagues where community made maps for competing can be added. I don't know, but I am getting pretty bored as well with the ladder and not having a ton of friends to custom with isn't helping. On February 13 2011 05:57 TheDominator wrote: If we can choose who we play, then our ratings will not necessarily be representations of out skill. We could be winning 70% of ZvTs and losing every ZvZ and ZvP, and as long as you vs terran, you can make it to diamond when in reality you suck. I think the maps are the only problem. They should be rotated. I like the smurf idea, but in reality people may use that so that you can give a free account (in a way) to ur friends. This could easily be fixed by adding a % for TvZ, TvP, and TvT along with the overall win-loss ratio. Not that big of a deal. Also, giving you'r friends a free account wouldn't really work because even with multiple account's it's the same game key and only one person can play at a time. | ||
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[N3O]r3d33m3r
Germany673 Posts
On February 12 2011 19:53 Phanekim wrote: ladder system is something i actually like with new bnet. my issues are with game design. :-/. | ||
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Befree
695 Posts
Now Bnet has been improved to a point where we don't have to use an outdated custom game system for ranked ladder play, and we're whining about wanting the old system back? There were good things about Bnet 1.0, the ladder system... Not one of them. Nothing about Bnet 1.0 should be copied as it is all outdated, of course, but I think they could make Bnet 2.0's chat channels and custom game searching a little more similar to Bnet 1.0's system, while still updating and improving it. And as for the the conclusion, it just seems like a completely made up, meaningless assumption. | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
People making the point that if it was like ICCUP, than people would climb the ladder only playing on their fav maps/matchups ect. And if someone insanely good makes a smurf than that would be dumb if both were in the top 200. And I am in agreement of keeping smurfing down, it was insane how many people would join a "C" only game, only to find out after getting obliterated that they were an A. BUT Not having any choice is also a problem. Im fukking tired of people saying: Just play custom games. Well, ya sure, but blizzard has put so much focus on climbing the ladder: that only people who are on top of the ladder will get an invite to Blizzcon? That is outragous bullshit. I think incontrol on sotg made that point. Players and teams need private, organized practice. And that takes quite a bit of time from laddering. Who would you rather see at Blizzcon 2011: Idra, or Katari? Now combine the shit maps that a fly wouldnt take a second look at let alone play on, and whala. And also, I really have a hard time playing a game that blizzard is trying to "balance at all levels". Balance was, is, and always should be from the top down. Period. You are a complete troll and a dumbass if you argue against that simple and true fact. I dont have the solution. I hope so much that Blizzard is really doing their best to remedy the situation. I cant argue that SC2 plays much better than BW. However if Blizzard wants (and im sure they do) SC2 to have the competitive long lasting play that BW had and still has even over a decade later: They gotta make changes. | ||
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unsaintly
Germany687 Posts
On February 13 2011 06:00 Xswordy wrote: The 2 big problems at the moment are maps and cross region play. I am still wondering why didn't they implement cross region play , I mean how can that hurt? That will only make the game better with a bigger and more united community and for alot more reasons. activision, it's all about the money brah. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 13 2011 05:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: It's posts like these that just help fuel the people who say "SC2 sucks, bnet 2.0 sucks". You're just pointing out all the bad things about it without explaining everything. For example, Bnet 2.0 sucks yes, but remember it's most likely Activision that handled it. I'm sure Blizzard is trying to convince them and/or change it to the way they want it, etc. No LAN? We already know why (or at least a good reason). It's not because they're against eSports, but because they don't want an organization like Kespa to take "control" of their game. Also, saying that Blizzard doesn't care about the mappool and won't use user created maps is just wrong. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean they won't do it. It's just a matter of time. Blizzard still has many other things to work on. If they focus all on us team liquid competitive players, which is only a small amount of the players in SC2, what happens if the casual players lose interest and quit? Isn't that bad for the future of SC2? Now, what if us competitive players be more patient, and let Blizzard fix things up such as clan features, tournament features, a better custom game feature, etc., and work on other things to appease the casual players? In the end they keep a much bigger player pool, and then they can concentrate more on the competitive nature of the game. Like in an interview, Browder said he wanted map seasons of 3-4 months with map changes. How does this show that Blizzard doesn't want to add new maps? He also said the current ladder reset has been postponed much longer than he would have liked. And again, remember Blizzard doesn't have full control of the game. Activision does. Activision has let Blizzard handle the gaming aspects, but that means that Blizzard does not necessarily have control of the other aspects, such as Bnet 2.0, having only 1 character per account, or even the game being split into "three" (which really is just 1 game + 2 expansions, but everyone keeps putting words into Activision's mouth by claiming each installation will cost $60). So anyways, just be patient people, and try to avoid complaining about things without doing some research first (not accusing, just a friendly reminder for everyone). Here's the problem with that. If the community doesn't like some feature (maps, etc), if they're not being vocal, they're condoning things staying the same. The thing that's going to pressure Blizzard to pressure activision enough to implement the changes is constant pressure from the community. You're not going to have a long lasting experience like in BW if Blizzard is unwilling to work with people on things that need to be implemented, most people are just going to give up and say "fuck it". Also, the problem with the competitive scene sitting back and letting the casual scene get developed, is that that's killing the competitive scene. All sorts of tourneys are getting new map pools, and where does that leave potential players trying to bust into the competitive scene? Fucked, if they don't have a lot of really good practice partners (and I mean a whole lot of REALLY good players. If you're hoping to breach your first MLG and they have a custom map pool, realistically, you're not going to have anywhere near the level of practice players from pro teams will have. You're not going to get iNcontroL, or Ret, or one of these fantastic players to be your practice partner, they're withdrawing into their own team to practice, and you're left looking for some 3k masters jobber to be your practice partner, which is better than nothing, but your play is so limited in this fashion. This sort of thing is beginning to happen now, and it's only going to get worse over time, until you're not going to have any new faces. Weather it's comfortable for blizzard/Activision or not, they need to get on their horse and go, because the longer they pussyfoot around this subject, the more they hurt the competitive scene, one of the biggest draws to Star2. | ||
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Yotta
United States270 Posts
Now that being on topic is out of the way: On February 12 2011 19:26 Arisen wrote: A LOT. a lot.[I'm in college] ...Allot... ...allot... ...allot... ...allot... ...allot... ...Allot... ...allot... | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 13 2011 14:31 Yotta wrote: Blizzards apparent refusal to use maps made by decent map makers on the ladder is one of my biggest problems with sc2; it's right up there with the lack of LAN and inability to watch replays with other people. Basically everything about bnet2.0 is this biggest problem with sc2 right now imo. Now that being on topic is out of the way: A LOT. a lot. Worst part? I'm an English major. I don't give a fuck, microsoft word will fix it. lol | ||
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QuothTheRaven
United States5524 Posts
 ). If the ladder pool rotated in the GSL / iCCup maps, I'd almost certainly start laddering again. Until then, I'm just not really interested; I'd rather watch GSL, read TL, or play some BW on fresh, new maps. I really miss the ability to focus on 1 map/matchup vs. a lot of opponents on iCCup. I still remember this one Saturday where I played ~40 TvPs on Match Point working on a specific build order and style. It stands out in my mind as one of the most interesting and useful practice sessions I've ever had; I don't think I've ever had that sense of "flow" with SC2 laddering. I realize though that this system messes with matchmaking and can lead to some ladder abuse, which is unfortunate, and I can understand why Blizzard won't implement it. | ||
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IamBach
United States1059 Posts
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dtz
5834 Posts
For pro point of view, they have their own clan mates and a wide array of friends to custom with. EG has their daily training sessions and i'm sure every other clan has as well. For the part about blizzcon, the real pros can get invited to blizzcon very easily due to bonus pool. See how Huk goes up to 4k in just 4 days ( from 1000+ if i'm not wrong?) so i really think if the pros want it then they will. Infact, this year's US Invite from Blizzcon was HuK and Select ( hardly scrubs no?). SEA and KR had qualification tournament. Taiwan had Sen. China had Loner. So everyone who were there were top players from their region. | ||
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peekn
United States1152 Posts
Edit: speeling | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 13 2011 15:21 dtz wrote: For the part about blizzcon, the real pros can get invited to blizzcon very easily due to bonus pool. See how Huk goes up to 4k in just 4 days ( from 1000+ if i'm not wrong?) so i really think if the pros want it then they will. Infact, this year's US Invite from Blizzcon was HuK and Select ( hardly scrubs no?). SEA and KR had qualification tournament. Taiwan had Sen. China had Loner. So everyone who were there were top players from their region. HuK and Select were merely the head of the ladder. While I would contest that HuK is probably the best protoss from NA, I believe there were allot more deserving players than select for that other slot. IdrA, possibly the best non-Korean player out there (some might argue Jinro), plays on Korea, so he has a relitively short time to ladder up, and dealing with good players, he's far from assured to get a spot. EGMachine doesn't ladder allot becuase he likes to do custom games, would not a change to allow custom games on the ladder help a player such as him? IdrA, HuK, Jinro, TLO, Ret; All great players who I would say probably deserve a slot at blizzcon probably don't have a shot at it beause they play a different server. I'm not trying to take away from Select, there are few people who can multitask as fast as him on his level, but I don't necissarily think he's a better player than some of these guys like IdrA, and Jinro. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
True, but it is a bit annoying but I guess I'll have to deal with it. True again, although they should definitely also cater to the casual gamers. Right now I'd say their "balance" on the focusing of different kinds of gamers is off .@pzea469 Totally agree, although it was probably more Activision that decided to split it into 3 parts. But Blizzard's reason seemed legit so may be it was Blizzard's call. Also, I don't think the expansions will take years and years... HotS is probably already very far in development. It'll probably come out next year, although Browder said he'd like to have it at the end of 2011. So that'll only be about 2 years, which seems reasonable to me. Also the having 2 people on balancing... tbh you don't need that many to balance. I mean, this is their job. It's not like TL where we have a few hundred regulars talking about strategy with about 1% of our time daily or so. Anyways, David Kim, one of the balancers (haha just in case no one knew) is one of the top ladder players in the US. On top of that, he plays Random! So I do believe the balance team (or at least David Kim) knows what he's doing. He is probably better than 95% of the population in TL assuming almost all of the top 100s use TL. I'd say it's safe to assume he has a good game sense too, probably also around 95% better than everyone else's on TL. And when you take into account the fact that he plays random and probably spends just as much time in Starcraft 2 as a progamer, he could very well be on par with the top Liquid players like Jinro in terms of game sense and knowledge. I hope people realize this! :D | ||
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