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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. |
On February 09 2011 08:25 NinjaDrone wrote:*Points to Day[9] Daily #256 with ROOTCatz* Eat your heart out Idra and Artosis. Seriously guys, you just got exposed to be the narrow minded whiners that you are.
lmao because I want to listen to what he says what time does he start talking about it? I mean you make it completely sound like Day 9 completely ripped them apart which I highly doubt he did.
I don't watch the nooby tuesdays funday mondays as I find them boring so didn't watch it ^_^.
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On February 09 2011 08:25 NinjaDrone wrote:*Points to Day[9] Daily #256 with ROOTCatz* Eat your heart out Idra and Artosis. Seriously guys, you just got exposed to be the narrow minded whiners that you are.
when does he talk about it? i dont want to watch day 9 any more than i have to.
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On February 09 2011 08:29 Fa1nT wrote:Please stop posting Day9 videos on monday/tuesday as a point of argument, even catz does not consider that a series strategy that will work in top level play..
This. Since the daily i've seen nothing but "oh well just mass queens" as the solution to every problem zerg has. Sure, its a crazy build that can work sometimes, but it is far from being the correct response. If it was, we'd see every zerg doing it.
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You guys are doing it wrong. Sean was dismissive that the perceived unit imbalance requires a complete show about it. That should be the takeaway. I have no doubt he's still best of friends with Artosis, and I also wouldn't doubt he has great respect to the playing skills of the duo. So there, don't make it bigger than what it is.
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I just want to make a post here without arguing or interjecting any of my own opinion, to say I really appreciate it when the high level players are willing to share their thoughts with us. It is obvious from this thread that you get raked over coals every time you do, and I really appreciate your willingness to share your opinion anyway.
This is really interesting, logical stuff and it's this kind of discussion that HAS to occur in order to make an amazing game into the best game of all time.
I think it would be harmful to my mental health for me to sift through any more of this thread than I already have, but none of the people I've seen posting here are even using any LOGIC. If you're going to just call them whiners and that's the extent of your argument, you are hurting your cause, anyone with any intelligence can see they clearly win that debate.
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I lay 2-1 if you bet against zerg being buffed in the next balance patch. Bets up to 1000$/euro are accepted. We can work out a safe way of doing this kind of bet.
I strongly feel that eventhough 2-1 is a great price not even the most deluded player will dare to make the bet.
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When will the new episode be out ?
sorry haven't been keeping track of all the thread !
is this going to be a weekly thing ?
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On February 09 2011 08:50 jojoleb wrote:
When will the new episode be out ?
sorry haven't been keeping track of all the thread !
is this going to be a weekly thing ?
yeah it will be weekly
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On February 09 2011 08:29 Fa1nT wrote:Please stop posting Day9 videos on monday/tuesday as a point of argument, even catz does not consider that a series strategy that will work in top level play..
And you completely missed the point of the Daily and my post. The point is that it is ABSURD to cry about imbalance in a game where players have yet to explore all the viable strategies (or even all of the crazy ones.) Standards in SC1 didn't develop for YEARS after the game came out. Whining about imbalance is a disease that stunts your creativity. Once you stop crying about imbalance and devote that energy to productive things it opens up your mind to all sort of interesting possibilities.
Instead of whining about imbalance how about Idra and Artosis do something productive like play against each other, cast it and teach people ways to defeat strategies that a lot of people have trouble with (like banshees or colossi balls.)
And to everyone else, check out Daily #256. He makes many, many references to the Imbalance video.
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On February 09 2011 08:52 NinjaDrone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 08:29 Fa1nT wrote:On February 09 2011 08:25 NinjaDrone wrote:*Points to Day[9] Daily #256 with ROOTCatz* Eat your heart out Idra and Artosis. Seriously guys, you just got exposed to be the narrow minded whiners that you are. Please stop posting Day9 videos on monday/tuesday as a point of argument, even catz does not consider that a series strategy that will work in top level play.. And you completely missed the point of the Daily and my post. The point is that it is ABSURD to cry about imbalance in a game where players have yet to explore all the viable strategies (or even all of the crazy ones.) Standards in SC1 didn't develop for YEARS after the game came out. Whining about imbalance is a disease that stunts your creativity. Once you stop crying about imbalance and devote that energy to productive things it opens up your mind to all sort of interesting possibilities. Instead of whining about imbalance how about Idra and Artosis do something productive like play against each other, cast it and teach people ways to defeat strategies that a lot of people have trouble with (like banshees or colossi balls.) And to everyone else, check out Daily #256. He makes many, many references to the Imbalance video.
yeah we should just discredit anything regarding imbalance cause the games so new huh. just like when 60hp scvs raped toss, 5 rx reaper raped zerg, 1 food roaches raped everything. yeah man we just coulda found ways around those. yeah yeah, i see your logic.
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On February 09 2011 08:35 TheBrofessor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 08:29 Fa1nT wrote:On February 09 2011 08:25 NinjaDrone wrote:*Points to Day[9] Daily #256 with ROOTCatz* Eat your heart out Idra and Artosis. Seriously guys, you just got exposed to be the narrow minded whiners that you are. Please stop posting Day9 videos on monday/tuesday as a point of argument, even catz does not consider that a series strategy that will work in top level play.. This. Since the daily i've seen nothing but "oh well just mass queens" as the solution to every problem zerg has. Sure, its a crazy build that can work sometimes, but it is far from being the correct response. If it was, we'd see every zerg doing it.
I have no idea why Queen-heavy play isn't popular.
I can build a tank that's also a spellcaster and anti-air, requires no tech, and costs no gas.
I'm sure as fuck going to build more than one per base.
EDIT: It's quite possible I'm wrong, but Queens and Infestors have struck me as Zerg's strongest units for a long time now.
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On February 03 2011 11:43 Saechiis wrote:
Even though I actually enjoyed watching this introductory episode, I still think this entire show is a horrible idea. You've obviously chosen a subject close to your interests and it's obviously going to provide you with a ridiculous amounts of viewers that want to hear all about how their opponents have an unfair advantage. It's not, however, in the interest of the SC2 community.
TeamLiquid is already overrun with hundreds of brainless bronze Zergs that cling to every word IdrA says and will go rampaging through the forums every time the magic word *imbalance* is proclaimed. For every person that can see through obvious bias, oversimplification and exaggeration there are at least two that don't or won't and it shows in the continuous degradation of TL's SC2 Strategy Forums.
You explain how Starcraft 2 should be balanced around top level play since that's where the variable of "skill" relatively has the least influence. You fail to discuss though, the human factor, and what makes someone an objective judge of balance. Because let's face it, both you, IdrA and Artosis, are biased towards Zerg in the same way you were biased towards Terran when you played that race in BW. You're both easily the most vocal and quick in claiming imbalance in both versions of Starcraft and one can't help but notice that the arrow is always pointed at things that are disadvantageous to your race of play.
Even though I can see that you've tried to at least make logical steps of reasoning, it's still so obvious that you're both not objective in your judgement. You talk a little bit about Colossi in TvP and how it's balanced there, but watching that as spectator you just feel your disinterest in the subject and how you seem to be getting that part out of the way to get to the point you "really" want to talk about. Which becomes pretty obvious when Artosis says "now let's talk about Colossi in ZvP" and you both can't help but get a huge grin on your face since you get to tell it's overpowered.
You have both stated to not be familiar enough with other races than Zerg to play them at a competetive level. Doesn't that say enough about the validity of your judgement as two talented, but still biased Zerg players?
You talk about the Colossus being a weapon of choice in all MU's and how it seriously obliterates ground. Concluding that it's too hard for Zerg to balance Corrupter count together with the economy required to churn them out. But that's obviously just 1 side of the story, you don't mention how Protoss gateway units all get totally raped by Roach/ Hydra, which is the reason why Toss needs ranged splash damage in the first place. The relative weakness of the core gateway units needs the additional DPS of Storm and Colossi for it to be cost-efficient. And since Storm is such an expensive and long tech path, Colossi are practically always the unit of choice to survive through midgame.
Basically, I feel that the only ones that are benefited by such a show are yourselves; whilst SC communities like the ones on TL, SCReddit and even the Bnet forums are left to deal with even more irrational balance whines than there are now.
My dear fellow dutchman, You are very right. In their video they state that the discussion on balance can not be interfered by people with egos, the problem is, once you deem you are able to judge imbalance of anything, ego has already come into play, for imbalance always remains a very subjective experience. Unfortunately, the 60+ pages of this topic underline the need for the warning that you shared with us, for now most of the community thinks they know something the other person doesn't.
Any (im)balance claimed, is Only an opinion, a subjective impression! If you think it is not, then you do not understand the complexity that is involved in matters of balance. A truly horrible idea for artosis and idra to start of with.
If you truly want to explore balance, you need statistics, you need tests, you need elaborate discussions with pro's who are of a different opinion. And you need them as extensively as possible. Artosis and Idra have acted irresponsible, either failing to understand their potential to influence people or using that potential to actually convince people of their own subjective experiences.
Note; I do not want to claim imbalance can not be claimed by anyone, that would be silly. But known players, with influence, need to be responsible and showing the rest that you can not conclude on such things without the above. So what do you do when you find a problem ingame? You need to find a way to beat it, there always is, if there wasn't we'd know this as an entire community. I think Day[9] ascribes to this sentiment, and I wish most of the Sc2 community would join his lead.
Discussions on imbalance only helps to divide the community all the while not really adressing the question to what extent we can actually judge something as imbalanced.
Ps. I registered for the sole purpose of being able to quote your post for truth.
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On February 09 2011 08:33 blade55555 wrote:lmao because I want to listen to what he says what time does he start talking about it? I mean you make it completely sound like Day 9 completely ripped them apart which I highly doubt he did. I don't watch the nooby tuesdays funday mondays as I find them boring so didn't watch it ^_^.
All he does is mention it, look at the camera, and roll his eyes.
Sorry, but anyone who thinks the game is devoid of all imbalance is completely and utterly naive. There is no such thing as a game that is devoid of all imbalance, except for mirror games.
I don't care how good Day[9] is, no one in the worlds is even remotely close to good enough to state that the game is balanced. NO ONE knows enough about this game to even come CLOSE yet. All we can do is discuss it in a civil manner with LOGIC and REASONING, but TL generally seems to prefer the yelling of insults and the "QQ MOAR LOLOLOL" response.
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On February 09 2011 08:58 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 08:35 TheBrofessor wrote:On February 09 2011 08:29 Fa1nT wrote:On February 09 2011 08:25 NinjaDrone wrote:*Points to Day[9] Daily #256 with ROOTCatz* Eat your heart out Idra and Artosis. Seriously guys, you just got exposed to be the narrow minded whiners that you are. Please stop posting Day9 videos on monday/tuesday as a point of argument, even catz does not consider that a series strategy that will work in top level play.. This. Since the daily i've seen nothing but "oh well just mass queens" as the solution to every problem zerg has. Sure, its a crazy build that can work sometimes, but it is far from being the correct response. If it was, we'd see every zerg doing it. I have no idea why Queen-heavy play isn't popular. I can build a tank that's also a spellcaster and anti-air, requires no tech, and costs no gas. I'm sure as fuck going to build more than one per base. EDIT: It's quite possible I'm wrong, but Queens and Infestors have struck me as Zerg's strongest units for a long time now.
Well, Artosis has stated that Broodlords and Infestors are Zerg's "ultimate combination" (not sure if that was his exact words, but that was the general idea). The inclusion of queens to that combo makes sense. I believe Idra said in this video Ret was trying out infestor play vs Colossi, also.
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Honestly, what's being overlooked here - what I tried to reply to - is that Idra and Artosis aren't discussing imbalance as such. They talk about actual imbalances (though the roach issue they reference lasted like a month of beta so we don't even really know about that) as a contrast - but say repeatedly that they're dealing with things that may or may not be imbalanced. I think that's gotten very lost, between the name of the show (which is obviously there to draw attention) and their conclusion that Colossus PvZ is "probably" OP. What I was struck by, more than anything, was how often both of them say, "We don't know but we're going to talk about it." And talking about it is really not a bad thing.
(My biggest issue with this episode, actually, was that I didn't like their take on Colossus PvP - sometimes things just work out that way, like muta in BW ZvZ. It's not the gamebreaker they make out, imo.)
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On February 09 2011 09:13 Musoeun wrote:Honestly, what's being overlooked here - what I tried to reply to - is that Idra and Artosis aren't discussing imbalance as such. They talk about actual imbalances (though the roach issue they reference lasted like a month of beta so we don't even really know about that) as a contrast - but say repeatedly that they're dealing with things that may or may not be imbalanced. I think that's gotten very lost, between the name of the show (which is obviously there to draw attention) and their conclusion that Colossus PvZ is "probably" OP. What I was struck by, more than anything, was how often both of them say, "We don't know but we're going to talk about it." And talking about it is really not a bad thing. (My biggest issue with this episode, actually, was that I didn't like their take on Colossus PvP - sometimes things just work out that way, like muta in BW ZvZ. It's not the gamebreaker they make out, imo.)
The problem with 'talking about it' in their format, is that they present an impression, and with that they have influence. Thus no talking ensues, no discussions, no back and forth, merely stating and agreeing. This is the same as convincing people, but no actual convincing is necessary for those with frustrations will unavoidably already lean towards their position, thus actually making matters worse. Because nothing is more problematic in a discussion than a person that has already made up his mind, who feels strengthened in his opinion by having 'experts' such as Artosis and Idra state their impressions.
Talking about it, can only be good, if it allows for varied impressions from multiple standpoints. Furthermore, what point does it serve? Say Unit X in strat Y is considered OP by some, while others have learned to work with it and beat it. Does it then mean it's OP? Normal?
Moreover, why did they chose to do it in this format? Why on camera? Why not a forumpost? I sense a feeling of superiority regarding their impression of imbalances in the game, that they will bestow upon its viewership, all the while not directly engaging in a constructive dialogue that offers multiple standpoints. To have it in this format, allows them for a safe way to state their opinions, without the ability of someone immediately responding to it thus either cluttering their trail of thought or making things more complex then they would have it. This creates the (perhaps unintended) illusion that they have the superior grasp on things.
Questions on what it means to have something be overpowered is lacking, for we already assume that A) everyone understands the concept in a similar fashion, B)that we have a sufficient grasp of the concept.
Talking about it, if not done carefully, by people who have influence, can actually be detrimental, I would think. To the community that is.
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kinda sad that even day9 is derailing this video/thread just because the show is called imbalanced. This series has lots of potential but people just dont want to understand that, i start to understand why no progamer wants to talk about balance issues or problems they encouter while playing.
I hope that you guys keep going and dont stop just because all the haters.
on a side note, you guys should probably talk rather about Unitcompositons in specific scenarios, rather than saying Unit X is hard to deal with.
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On February 09 2011 08:52 NinjaDrone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 08:29 Fa1nT wrote:On February 09 2011 08:25 NinjaDrone wrote:*Points to Day[9] Daily #256 with ROOTCatz* Eat your heart out Idra and Artosis. Seriously guys, you just got exposed to be the narrow minded whiners that you are. Please stop posting Day9 videos on monday/tuesday as a point of argument, even catz does not consider that a series strategy that will work in top level play.. And you completely missed the point of the Daily and my post. The point is that it is ABSURD to cry about imbalance in a game where players have yet to explore all the viable strategies (or even all of the crazy ones.) Standards in SC1 didn't develop for YEARS after the game came out. Whining about imbalance is a disease that stunts your creativity. Once you stop crying about imbalance and devote that energy to productive things it opens up your mind to all sort of interesting possibilities. Instead of whining about imbalance how about Idra and Artosis do something productive like play against each other, cast it and teach people ways to defeat strategies that a lot of people have trouble with (like banshees or colossi balls.) And to everyone else, check out Daily #256. He makes many, many references to the Imbalance video.
You're the festering bile that plagues this game. Of course a new game is imbalanced. A game that has been developed by humans will always contain balance problems: primarily accounting for the ever-fun human error. It's really so annoying to hear a plague of locusts, such as yourself, quote Day9 as if he's some God amongst the rabble: he's a person who plays random, on an unknown account, never enters tournaments and makes a show primarily to get himself through university (to which I concede he's done well).
The problem with using SC1 as some sort of comparison to SC2 is that people in SC1 were utter morons. People had no concept of 'timing', 'build orders', 'all ins', and the norm that is SC2 terminology. Not only that, but IdrA and Artosis are more than likely one-hundred times the player you'll ever be given you're quoting what Catz from team root has said: and he himself is pretty average at best.
Oh, and I did mean that: people like you, who quote Day9 to be the be all and end all of discussion points are the bile and venom that plagues this game, the internet, and the world: where you take one opinion as fact and disregard everything else. In other news, the US says free-healthcare doesn't work. Assuming that opinion is fact: I guess the NHS being the second best rated healthcare system in the world is just a ploy made by the UK to spread the diseased, corrupt, bureaucratic system throughout the world.
User was warned for this post
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Mark my words, not once will they mention anything about zerg imbalance.
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EPT
