EPTIMBALANCED! - Introduction - Page 63
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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content. You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical. Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. | ||
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
1. If protoss misses a chronoboost he can chronoboost something else twice. Actually, he can choose to chronoboost his probes twice-->The only punishment a protoss gets is that he will have those 3 probes a little bit later. 2. If terran misses a mule, HE WON'T HAVE THE PRODUCTION. To make up for it. So in a way missing a mule is JUST like missing an inject. If a terran is able to throw down 8 mules on a gold patch. He will have 10k minerals. But only 5 rax. So the only way to benefit from this is by making 10 rax before you drop those 8 mules. But if you do that you will just get killed. . I'll restate my suggestion. A cooldown on MULEs (Not a minute or anything like that but even 5 seconds up to half of the lifespan of a MULE, simply so you can't spam them. It could easily apply to chronoboost too if you want it that way). Again, as previously stated by other people, if you are on top of dropping MULEs it wouldn't affect you i any way. It would simply reward better macro and stop people from dragging out games that are already over (Yes, I realize this is subjective). + Show Spoiler + Marine King in the GSTL yesterday, when he dropped MULEs after losing everything. Sure he left soon after, but many others would not As a protoss player and ex-random player, I agree with the hosts on Colossus though I'm not sure what. I do not like having to rely on it, especially in PvP and PvZ. | ||
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btlyger
United States470 Posts
On February 09 2011 02:14 asha wrote: People like ldrA needs to realize that he can only blame himself when he looses. NOT the balance of the game I'm assuming you didn't even watch the video, and barely even know Idra as a player. Sure he's been known for BM in the past, but honestly he's a very down to earth player. Watch his stream, he knows EXACTLY why he loses games; he never said in the video that he loses games because of this "imbalance". At the very start of the video they explain different types of imbalance, and I'm pretty sure they said that the colossus is not the type of imbalance that NEEDS to be fixed, but just something that deserves a look at and strategies need to develop. On February 09 2011 02:19 Ben... wrote: Firstly, some of the people in this thread need to calm down. Is it that difficult to be civilized when talking about this stuff? Typing in all caps and name calling doesn't progress discussion, and scares people who potentially could bring good insight away. Exactly, this entire show is about having a nice talk about balance. The problem is that whenever balance comes out threads go out of control. You don't need to agree with each other, just to have a nice discussion. Looking at balance issues is very important right now, we know Blizzard is developing an expansion, and the expansion is extremely important to the lifespan of this game. SC1 was not perfect, and then BW came along with some awesome patches and it made one of the most balanced games of all time. Heart of the Swarm has the potential to be what BW was to SC1, we just need to, as a community, discuss things that may need added, changed, tweaked. I'm glad Idra and Artosis are talking about these things, lately the State of the Game podcast is becoming less and less organized and controlled, and although I think this show also needs some tweaks I'm glad its gotten people talking. | ||
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Torumfroll
290 Posts
On February 09 2011 02:14 asha wrote: 3600 terran sais, lol. -,ldrA is not that good :/ everyone sais he is top Zerg but how come he never gets far in GSL? Because he's not that good, MANY better zergs out there. They just dont play as much as him or get sponsored because gaming isnt their life. Collu is easy to deal with as Z, Even me (terran player) can handle that simple. You know its coming everygame lol. Just frustrating to loose to because you know it is coming. People like ldrA needs to realize that he can only blame himself when he looses. NOT the balance of the game Because posting your ladder points validates your opinion. I'd say RO8 is pretty damn far. IdrA has been one of the most consistent players in the GSL, having qualified for every single one. You probably couldnt even take a game in a series vs someone like IdrA in a straight up macro game. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On February 09 2011 02:00 Logo wrote: It's never too late; we have 2 more expansions to go. Having a deathball race just isn't that interesting. It's not like Protoss is that far from being more flexible and interesting. Warp prisms, Blink and warp gates already show a ton of potential to open stuff up for our Protoss buddies. It's just that in most cases ball + colossi ends up being way better. Out of curiosity, do you (or anyone) think Colossi having less HP would affect the situation at all? Colossi actually have very high hp/pop compared to other units of a similar nature. Colossi: 58hp/pop, Siege tank: 40hp/pop, HT: 40hp/pop, Banshee: 46hp/pop. Personally I'd rather have cheaper colossi with less hp than what we have now. It'd open up more options for Protoss while making colossi easier to deal with when prepared. I hope you are right about it not being too late. On the Colossi have less HP. I honestly think it needs to keep it's firepower but somehow make it more volatile. Kinda like the reaver. Maybe give it an energy bar it uses to shoot so cannot shoot that much in a fight or something. I haven't really thought about how you would make it a more volatile unit  | ||
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Mentymion
Germany259 Posts
On February 09 2011 01:40 Endorsed wrote: Turrets can't protect Terran players 100 percent from cloacked banshee's. That's why going cloacked banshee's is a viable thing to do. You don't need to go robo. Only when you go like 1 gate core FE and you see him making a factory/only having marines. Explain to my how LiquidTyler likes to go 3 gate expand into double forge. I mean he would just DIE to cloacked banshee's burrowed roaches riteeeeeeeee? No. he just throws down a cannon and gets a robo so he can push out. You seriously need to learn how to spread out your ht's if they are getting EMP'ed. It's not like 3 storms is enough to kill any bio ball anyway. Thats right, static defense never protects you for 100% but in Terrans worst case scenario they have Scans and Protoss don't have this kind of ability. I even saw EMP's only for the purpose to detect stealth units and it works perfectly. Matter of fact is that in all these different scenarios Protoss relies heavily on Obersvers. I also wanted to mention that we Protoss player kind of adapted in the last couple of months were robo isn't that essential anymore. For example a PvZ on Scrapstation can be fight entirely diffrent than a Colossi war. Opting for a quick Stargate to pressure Zerg, scouting and harassing with Phoenixes and only going for robo when you see some fishy Roach play is quite common. Same could be done with Hallucination. Same goes probably for Tyler. He only goes for Obs when he needs them but many Protoss player say:"Why should I get another tech/composition when I must go for robo sooner or later, having Colossi inclusive ?" ...and 3 Storms are probably not enough to kill any bio ball but it's devasting in combination with your army attacking,too. I'am aware that I have to spread my HT's and there will be always some Storms rdy but as a Protoss player I found myself better going for Colossi then HT's cuz it's simply nervwracking, not to mention that Charge against Stim-kite shit isn't that good and DT's against Terra is kinda stupid anyway. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 09 2011 02:14 asha wrote: 3600 terran sais, lol. -,ldrA is not that good :/ everyone sais he is top Zerg but how come he never gets far in GSL? Because he's not that good, MANY better zergs out there. They just dont play as much as him or get sponsored because gaming isnt their life. Collu is easy to deal with as Z, Even me (terran player) can handle that simple. You know its coming everygame lol. Just frustrating to loose to because you know it is coming. People like ldrA needs to realize that he can only blame himself when he looses. NOT the balance of the game LoL funny but absolutly untrue. Going to 3600 master (i should say nerding to 3600 master) is absolutly not the same as having good tourney result, qualifying for each GSL season, and winning televised matches. Who is better than IdrA ? I am certainly not an IdrA fan, and i think there are way more better player than him, but lol like a 3600 master zerg is anything close to IdrA's skill, that's bullshit. | ||
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SovSov
United States755 Posts
On February 09 2011 02:14 asha wrote: 3600 terran sais, lol. -,ldrA is not that good :/ everyone sais he is top Zerg but how come he never gets far in GSL? Because he's not that good, MANY better zergs out there. They just dont play as much as him or get sponsored because gaming isnt their life. Collu is easy to deal with as Z, Even me (terran player) can handle that simple. You know its coming everygame lol. Just frustrating to loose to because you know it is coming. People like ldrA needs to realize that he can only blame himself when he looses. NOT the balance of the game Wow. Idra doesn't get that far in GSL? He's one of the most consistent players in Code S. Look at someone like Fruitdealer, MC or Nestea, they won one tournament then fail the other times. Now look at Idra, he has at LEAST got to RO32 every tournament. THAT is impressive. | ||
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Cranberries
Wales567 Posts
On February 09 2011 03:51 SovSov wrote: When's the next episode? Wow. Idra doesn't get that far in GSL? He's one of the most consistent players in Code S. Look at someone like Fruitdealer, MC or Nestea, they won one tournament then fail the other times. Now look at Idra, he has at LEAST got to RO32 every tournament. THAT is impressive. Nestea is the best Zerg player in the world. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On February 09 2011 02:14 asha wrote: 3600 terran sais, lol. -,ldrA is not that good :/ everyone sais he is top Zerg but how come he never gets far in GSL? Because he's not that good, MANY better zergs out there. They just dont play as much as him or get sponsored because gaming isnt their life. Collu is easy to deal with as Z, Even me (terran player) can handle that simple. You know its coming everygame lol. Just frustrating to loose to because you know it is coming. People like ldrA needs to realize that he can only blame himself when he looses. NOT the balance of the game I can't tell if you are trolling or not :/ Introducing yourself with your rating like a retard and then trash talking a player because he never gets far in the GSL (yea Ro8 is nothing...) although no one ever heard of you. If you are not trolling, then its really sad. | ||
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
On February 09 2011 03:55 Cranberries wrote: Nestea is the best Zerg player in the world. But not the most consistent. | ||
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JerKy
Korea (South)3013 Posts
Can this same concept apply to siege tanks in TvT? It's possible to win without tanks in TvT, but it's definitely a lot harder in my opinion | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
I think even IdrA conceits that NesTea is better than him. He wouldn't say it to begin with, but NesTea has given enough evidence that it can't really be argued with at this point. 1st place and RO 4 along with respectable play in the other 2 GSLs is pretty damn consistent. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
Putting a cooldown on mules would be retarded to begin with, because it would screw over scans. If a decent terran is expecting banshees, he saves up his energy to get a couple of scans in. If a banshee doesn't come, the terran can use the saved up energy on mules to start catching up on what his mineral income per minute should have been. A cooldown on mule would screw over the terran saving scans, because he would never be able to catch up. Also, people going on about mules having no penalties while chrono boosts and larva injects do make me rage. Different abilities are different, they all have their strengths and weaknesses, yarly. I don't know why no one has considered it broken as fuck OP when the protoss has like 4 nexus endgame and forgets to CB, and starts CBing the next 5 warp gate cycles and gets twice the amount of units he should have been getting if he used his CB properly. It's the same principle. Yes if you screw up Chrono boosts, you will be able to spam out units later on because it stacked up, but you will have suffered through the entirety of the game beforehand because you werent playing that optimally to begin with, and thus he'll have a stronger army than he should have had, and advantages that he shouldn't have had, if you had an army to match him during those crucial battles before the CB. Also, to the nerdbrains going on about zerg being screwed if he misses a larva inject and such. Zergs macro mechanic is more forgiving to begin with. If a Terran and Protoss misses 10 seconds of time on any unit producing facility, those 10 seconds are gone forever. If a zerg doesn't turn his first larva into a unit, he'll simply get another larva soon (mule stacking way yo) in a bit and we'll be able to throw down twice as many. Different abilities, are in fact different. The mule is made for Terran to keep up with Protoss and Zerg economically. It has some advantages over the other races as Terran can oversaturate and recover from scv rape easier, and disadvantages, like it not being able to spam out your tech and armies out loads faster. | ||
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
Creep tumor -> requires moving your queen to the edge of your creep which can be as much as 1/2 the map. This is useless anyway, as there is usually a queen devoted to creep. Transfuse -> Requires moving any unit you want healed all the way back to your main base. Roaches can heal themselves, hydra die too fast to ever not have full or zero hp, and ultras are needed on the front line. Brood lords are too slow to fly back to main base. This skill is almost reserved for mutalisks. If a terran had MULE cooldown, they can still scan (unlimited range), to kill creep or see the army compsition or see tech structures, or drop free supply (which is also unlimited range). Supply drop is 100 minerals + mining time of 1 SCV, which comes out to around 130-150 minerals I guess. I am not even discussing balance, what I have stated is fact, and it would hurt terran very little to have macro cooldowns, especially since it would not effect the best terrans who MULE on time. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
[B]I am not even discussing balance, what I have stated is fact. Made me laugh, facts? Present them. Also, I already went through this. Missing a mule and compensating for it later is a disadvantage for slipping up. Edit: And if you really want to be picky. If a queen forgets and stacks up larva, the player can throw down more hatches in their main, as a lot of zergs do, and keep that one queen stacking them for a while. I'm sure people who play other games recognize these similar arguments, for instance Wow where people were comparing their abilities in a void rather than considering the entirety of their class and the full package. The macro mechanics of the three races are there to complement them, and since missing mules early on puts you in a disadvantage that can't be recovered, I don't see why there should be a cooldown on it. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Also, to the nerdbrains going on about zerg being screwed if he misses a larva inject and such. Zergs macro mechanic is more forgiving to begin with. If a Terran and Protoss misses 10 seconds of time on any unit producing facility, those 10 seconds are gone forever. If a zerg doesn't turn his first larva into a unit, he'll simply get another larva soon (mule stacking way yo) in a bit and we'll be able to throw down twice as many. The difference is larva inject can't be done without drawing your attention away while it's relatively easy to hit 4s. Also missing 1 second of larva inject is like missing 1 second of production on ~3-5 unit producing structures and it matters a lot early game when 5 second of missed larva inject can means 5 seconds of lost mining time per every drone that hatchery produces after lapsing (not counting drones made from naturally occurring larva), so within 2 batches of drones you miss out on ~40 seconds of mining time for a single 5 second lapse. It's the same for Terran per CC, but their production is more drawn out so you pay for your mistake over a longer period of time rather than being hit hard right away. With Terran being slow on 1 scv for 5 seconds would take ~2:15 game time equal the same amount of lost mining time as the zerg loses in 1:20. I don't really see the value in the comparison. It's not about what's harder. (It's worth noting that the above is slightly inaccurate as a queen only regenerates 23-24 energy before she can vomit again so you can eventually work away small amounts of energy if you are spot on for each inject after slipping. Likewise if your build involves dropping a creep tumor with the queen that will partially make up for an earlier missed inject). | ||
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
On February 09 2011 04:48 Jermstuddog wrote: I think even IdrA conceits that NesTea is better than him. He wouldn't say it to begin with, but NesTea has given enough evidence that it can't really be argued with at this point. 1st place and RO 4 along with respectable play in the other 2 GSLs is pretty damn consistent. I was about to make the same reply (Season 3 Nestea went to RO8)--unless their definition of "consistency" is achieving the same results, i.e., Idra>RO32 or Nestea=champion. By those parameters, why yes Idra is more consistent. I don't mean to dog Idra, his achievements are impressive, but people ought to give credit where it's due, and currently Nestea has the best overall GSL results out of him, Idra, and FD. I wouldn't put a CD on Mules, but maybe cap energy at OC's lower, say 150. | ||
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La1
United Kingdom659 Posts
the only match up where collsi flat out dominates is pvp late game, apart from that collsi can be countered quite easily, also artosis is wrong, i never 4gate (except on scrap station where you have to). Idras point about collsi being the dominating force in pvp proves its overpowered in pvz is the worst argument i have ever herd. It basically means everything toss has sucks compared to collsi which is a fact.. carriers suck due to build time and the fact that they are quite easily countered by not many vikings or corruptors, Templar do OK vs bio only builds which is fair but most good players throw a mix so they are not perfect, Immortals are good but suck vs most tier 1 units (go figure) and the gateway units for toss are just awful period. You may argue this but roaches and hydra dominate stalkers , so do marines and maruders* without amazing forcefields, even when you get upgrades like blink and charge they then become ok.. but those upgrades are so expensive they are almost late game upgrades.. if you make collsi weaker the whole toss army wont be worth building unless they get some serious buffs. I would also like to point collsi is so key in pvp as the whole twilight root is almost unexplored and id take collsi over high templars any day of the week. | ||
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
On February 09 2011 07:08 La1 wrote: warp gate units are awfull.. protoss almost need collsi to stand a fighting chance in the match up, it seems to me idra has put no thought into this and no thought into a counter.. he never mentioned infestors or ultras, ultras DEMOLISH collsi and guess what ? they are both tier 3! i think idra needs to quit crying and start playing like the rest of us, the only match up where collsi flat out dominates is pvp late game, apart from that collsi can be countered quite easily, also artosis is wrong, i never 4gate (except on scrap station where you have to). Idras point about collsi being the dominating force in pvp proves its overpowered in pvz is the worst argument i have ever herd. It basically means everything toss has sucks compared to collsi which is a fact.. carriers suck due to build time and the fact that they are quite easily countered by not many vikings or corruptors, Templar do OK vs bio only builds which is fair but most good players throw a mix so they are not perfect, Immortals are good but suck vs most tier 1 units (go figure) and the gateway units for toss are just awful period. You may argue this but roaches and hydra dominate stalkers , so do marines and maruders* without amazing forcefields, even when you get upgrades like blink and charge they then become ok.. but those upgrades are so expensive they are almost late game upgrades.. if you make collsi weaker the whole toss army wont be worth building unless they get some serious buffs. getting a ultra is just a bit harder than getting a collusi bud. dont diss idras credibility unless you actually know what your talking about. he also never says because collusi are overpowered in pvp makes it op in pvz, he says it makes it too important in all the matchups. | ||
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