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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content. You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical. Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. | ||
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La1
United Kingdom659 Posts
Lair - 150 / 100 IPit - 100/100 Hive 250/100 Ultra Cavern 150/200 850/500 gate way 150 core 150 robo 200/100 RObo 200/200 range (otherwise they are horrible) 200/200 900/500 Cost about the same.. and i don't care how credible idras thoughts are, i think he is horribly biased and wrong so i will state that. Have you seen him do any deviation from ling muta or roach hydra corruptor in big gsl games? no. | ||
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
On February 09 2011 02:14 asha wrote: 3600 terran sais, lol. -,ldrA is not that good :/ everyone sais he is top Zerg but how come he never gets far in GSL? Because he's not that good, MANY better zergs out there. They just dont play as much as him or get sponsored because gaming isnt their life. Collu is easy to deal with as Z, Even me (terran player) can handle that simple. You know its coming everygame lol. Just frustrating to loose to because you know it is coming. People like ldrA needs to realize that he can only blame himself when he looses. NOT the balance of the game Apparently getting top 8 in the best tournament in the world means you aren't very good, even though anyone on earth could have gone to Korea and qualified... but I guess idra isn't very good, is he? Anyway, I have to agree that Colossus are too good. I don't think I've played a ZvP where the toss didn't get a colossus. Personally I think they should nerf them and buff something else so P has a choice. | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
On February 09 2011 07:24 Neo.NEt wrote: Apparently getting top 8 in the best tournament in the world means you aren't very good, even though anyone on earth could have gone to Korea and qualified... but I guess idra isn't very good, is he? Anyway, I have to agree that Colossus are too good. I don't think I've played a ZvP where the toss didn't get a colossus. Personally I think they should nerf them and buff something else so P has a choice. Not disagreeing with you about Idra's skill, but I want to point out that not anyone on earth can just go to Korea. It's far away, expensive, and the tournament lasts a month. Only very few people have the time and resources to leave their family to compete in the GSL, unless they already live in Korea. I honestly think that many foreigner Zergs are better than the Korean Zergs. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 09 2011 07:24 La1 wrote: Pool 200 Lair - 150 / 100 IPit - 100/100 Hive 250/100 Ultra Cavern 150/200 850/500 gate way 150 core 150 robo 200/100 RObo 200/200 range (otherwise they are horrible) 200/200 900/500 Cost about the same.. and i don't care how credible idras thoughts are, i think he is horribly biased and wrong so i will state that. Have you seen him do any deviation from ling muta or roach hydra corruptor in big gsl games? no. It's not about the cost. Hell it's not even about the time (which is heavily favored to colossi). You're border line trolling by trying to bring the argument down to something so bare bones. The ability to get ultralisks has a lot do to with ultra's need for upgrades, the time it takes to get them and the need for a lot of ultralisks (and a lot of gas to make a lot of ultralisks) for them to influence a battle. Colossi are more obtainable because it's safer to tech to them, they act as a force multiplier even in very small numbers, and they can avoid being sniped. | ||
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Bowdy
United States232 Posts
On February 09 2011 07:24 La1 wrote: and i don't care how credible idras thoughts are, i think he is horribly biased and wrong so i will state that. Have you seen him do any deviation from ling muta or roach hydra corruptor in big gsl games? no. LOL! Are you serious? Sorry but I don't think big GSL games are great testing grounds for new strategies. He plays SC2 as much or more than 99.9% of anyone, so to accuse him of not trying trying out new unit comps is ludicrous. Odds are he didn't have any success with them, so why use them in big gsl games. | ||
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Cranberries
Wales567 Posts
Winning every game from his 4-1 GSL final victory until his loss to MVP (the best player in the world) of 3-1, would make me believe he's consistently the best Zerg player in the world. In my view it goes: MVP > Nestea > oGsMC > rest of the world. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On February 09 2011 06:51 Dalavita wrote: Made me laugh, facts? Present them. Also, I already went through this. Missing a mule and compensating for it later is a disadvantage for slipping up. Edit: And if you really want to be picky. If a queen forgets and stacks up larva, the player can throw down more hatches in their main, as a lot of zergs do, and keep that one queen stacking them for a while. I'm sure people who play other games recognize these similar arguments, for instance Wow where people were comparing their abilities in a void rather than considering the entirety of their class and the full package. The macro mechanics of the three races are there to complement them, and since missing mules early on puts you in a disadvantage that can't be recovered, I don't see why there should be a cooldown on it. Eeeeuh, you do know hatches cost money right? thats like saying if they missed mules they can always make more scv's... Altough i agree they should not be compared but the thing atm is, missing mules gives you no disadvantage, it just just doesn't give an advantage from having those extra free (yes they cost energy but moneywise they are free) workers. You don't lose anything, you just gain less. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On February 09 2011 07:04 Logo wrote: The difference is larva inject can't be done without drawing your attention away while it's relatively easy to hit 4s. Also missing 1 second of larva inject is like missing 1 second of production on ~3-5 unit producing structures and it matters a lot early game when 5 second of missed larva inject can means 5 seconds of lost mining time per every drone that hatchery produces after lapsing (not counting drones made from naturally occurring larva), so within 2 batches of drones you miss out on ~40 seconds of mining time for a single 5 second lapse. It's the same for Terran per CC, but their production is more drawn out so you pay for your mistake over a longer period of time rather than being hit hard right away. With Terran being slow on 1 scv for 5 seconds would take ~2:15 game time equal the same amount of lost mining time as the zerg loses in 1:20. I don't really see the value in the comparison. It's not about what's harder. (It's worth noting that the above is slightly inaccurate as a queen only regenerates 23-24 energy before she can vomit again so you can eventually work away small amounts of energy if you are spot on for each inject after slipping. Likewise if your build involves dropping a creep tumor with the queen that will partially make up for an earlier missed inject). Pay attention. I mentioned zerg standard macro mechanics vs terran and protoss macro mechanics, not the special feats (chrono boost vs mule vs larva inject). Yes, if zerg misses his larva inject by 10 secs he'll be 10 secs behind. If Terran/Protoss start building their SCV 10 secs to late they'll be 10 secs behind. If Zerg starts producing a unit from larva 10 secs late, he won't be 10 secs behind, assuming he's not larva capped. Also, you can't mule without drawing your attention away either, so it's the same as larva inject as far as attention requirements goes. I'm talking about the macro mechanics, in which case your 4s for the terran would be 4d(dddddddddddddd) for zerg. | ||
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nemahsys
Canada457 Posts
On February 09 2011 07:33 Cranberries wrote: Winning every game from his 4-1 GSL final victory until his loss to MVP (the best player in the world) of 3-1, would make me believe he's consistently the best Zerg player in the world. In my view it goes: MVP > Nestea > oGsMC > rest of the world. sorry but I think you're giving mc way too much credit there man. Being a 1 base superstar does not equte to being third best in the world. I know this has nothing to do with the thread and I apologize, just wanted to respond to him is all. Gonna go watch this IMBALANCED!!@!@! show now and maybe edit my thoughts about it into this after. *edit* couldnt make it through the whole thing o_O it wasnt bias that turned me off but rather selective opinions. they talked about how the colo is fine pvt cause you get vik's but then didnt talk at all about how hard it becomes if p goes phoenix colo, then jumped straight into the zvp matchup with the attitude that its "almost" as flawed as 1 supply roaches. what was also funny is how they both said 1 supply roaches were broken and a totally necessary change. when that changed actually occurred idra was so vocal about how the roach was nerfed into complete uselessness b/c of this change. this sorta shows how he always thinks his race is underdeveloped/powered no matter what the state of the game. makes it hard to take him seriously when he's talking about balance is all. I hope this post isnt breaking the rules here, I've tried to address the content I was able to stomach watching. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
thats like saying if they missed mules they can always make more scv's... Altough i agree they should not be compared but the thing atm is, missing mules gives you no disadvantage, it just just doesn't give an advantage from having those extra free (yes they cost energy but moneywise they are free) workers. You don't lose anything, you just gain less. That is the disadvantage. Not having optimal amounts of units that you could have had with good macro is the penalty for messing up mules. You can do the exact same argument with larva inject. You won't lose anything, you'll just gain less. Larva inject is essentially free hatcheries. | ||
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
Artosis, please also modify your OP so when you get new episodes on youtube they also appear here on 1st page thank you! | ||
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norsK
United States131 Posts
On February 09 2011 07:38 nemahsys wrote: sorry but I think you're giving mc way too much credit there man. Being a 1 base superstar does not equte to being third best in the world. I know this has nothing to do with the thread and I apologize, just wanted to respond to him is all. Gonna go watch this IMBALANCED!!@!@! show now and maybe edit my thoughts about it into this after. MC is in no way a 1 base pony... He simply uses what is most effective for Protoss in the current state of the game. There are so many GSL toss players that don't execute a strong enough plan to win the game... and just drag it out to an inevitable loss... People like to point out that toss late game army is very strong, without mentioning its almost impossible to reach that point without dealing SOME sort of damage to your opponent or taking a risk in tech or expansions. What I love most about MC is the way he exploits the strength of his race against the weakness of others. He knows exactly how to take the slightest advantage, execute it perfectly, and capitalize on it in the late game. Most certainly gets my vote for top 3. I mean, he won 1 of the 4 GSL's so by default he should at least be top 4. | ||
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j3i
United States357 Posts
Guests - I know the notice at the top is calling this "fucking obtuse advice" but I genuinely feel this show will benefit from other opinions. Having other people contribute to the discussion will make the "argument" seem less one-sided. Cons: Chances are Idra might say something to cause drama. Possible solutions - Idra and Artosis have great knowledge of the game and I agree that it takes a world-class player to recognize imbalance. Like most of us, the devs at Blizzard aren't world class players. I personally feel that it's the world-class players that know exactly how much adding X amount of health or reducing X amount of build-time will affect the game. That said, I'm looking forward to episode 2. | ||
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La1
United Kingdom659 Posts
On February 09 2011 07:28 Logo wrote: It's not about the cost. Hell it's not even about the time (which is heavily favored to colossi). You're border line trolling by trying to bring the argument down to something so bare bones. The ability to get ultralisks has a lot do to with ultra's need for upgrades, the time it takes to get them and the need for a lot of ultralisks (and a lot of gas to make a lot of ultralisks) for them to influence a battle. Colossi are more obtainable because it's safer to tech to them, they act as a force multiplier even in very small numbers, and they can avoid being sniped. From the video which is what this topic has spawned from he doesnt mention any other way of countering them, I am saying on a personal level (which may be wrong) Colossi are fine and his video to me seems like a huge moan about the inbalence of the only protoss unit that is actually decent. | ||
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nemahsys
Canada457 Posts
On February 09 2011 07:56 norsK wrote: MC is in no way a 1 base pony... He simply uses what is most effective for Protoss in the current state of the game. There are so many GSL toss players that don't execute a strong enough plan to win the game... and just drag it out to an inevitable loss... People like to point out that toss late game army is very strong, without mentioning its almost impossible to reach that point without dealing SOME sort of damage to your opponent or taking a risk in tech or expansions. What I love most about MC is the way he exploits the strength of his race against the weakness of others. He knows exactly how to take the slightest advantage, execute it perfectly, and capitalize on it in the late game. Most certainly gets my vote for top 3. I mean, he won 1 of the 4 GSL's so by default he should at least be top 4. fruitdealer won a gsl and I dont put him in the top 4 at all. maybe thats just me though. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4830 Posts
On February 09 2011 07:28 Logo wrote: It's not about the cost. Hell it's not even about the time (which is heavily favored to colossi). You're border line trolling by trying to bring the argument down to something so bare bones. The ability to get ultralisks has a lot do to with ultra's need for upgrades, the time it takes to get them and the need for a lot of ultralisks (and a lot of gas to make a lot of ultralisks) for them to influence a battle. Colossi are more obtainable because it's safer to tech to them, they act as a force multiplier even in very small numbers, and they can avoid being sniped. Colossi are at least as dependent on attack upgrades as Ultralisk, and earlier ultras need fewer defense upgrades since the opposing player will have fewer attack upgrades. Colossi need numbers to be powerful, and it takes Protoss LONGER to acquire the gas and LONGER to build a matching number of Colossi as Ultralisks. Now, I can easily believe that Ultras aren't as useful as Colossi, although I suspect they're also under-explored since it's generally trickier to use melee units than ranged ones. (A few midgame ultras, supported by some Transfuse and trampling all over Protoss's force fields, sound like a powerful 'force multiplier' for your ground force to me.) But they're perfectly accessible if Zerg is willing to make a comparable investment to Protoss. | ||
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sureshot_
United States257 Posts
On February 09 2011 07:08 La1 wrote: warp gate units are awfull.. protoss almost need collsi to stand a fighting chance in the match up, it seems to me idra has put no thought into this and no thought into a counter.. Idra did put thought into this, it's exactly why he stated that Collosi are such a powerful, necessary unit. If I'm reading this right it sounds like you interpreted Idra as wanting the collosi to be nerfed. Idra did state something along those lines BUT he also stated that in his opinion the main problem with collosi is that they are so strong they almost always have to be used at higher level play, and this in return creates one-dimensional play. One-dimensional play is the problem with protoss. On February 09 2011 07:24 La1 wrote: and i don't care how credible idras thoughts are, i think he is horribly biased and wrong so i will state that. Have you seen him do any deviation from ling muta or roach hydra corruptor in big gsl games? no. Of course Idra is biased... so are you. The reason why Idra probably isn't deviating from ling/muta or roach/hydra is because that's what works. If there were strong counters and effective strategies for countering, in this case collosi, then they would already be being used and executed. You can't blame him for not wanting to theorycraft and try crazy new strategies in a tournament setting. | ||
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NinjaDrone
United States97 Posts
Seriously guys, you just got exposed to be the narrow minded whiners that you are. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4830 Posts
On February 09 2011 08:25 NinjaDrone wrote: *Points to Day[9] Daily #256 with ROOTCatz* Eat your heart out Idra and Artosis. Seriously guys, you just got exposed to be the narrow minded whiners that you are. That's been obvious for years of BW. Thing is, they're very good narrow-minded whiners, so they have a very thorough understanding of the narrow swath of information they accept. | ||
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
On February 09 2011 08:25 NinjaDrone wrote: *Points to Day[9] Daily #256 with ROOTCatz* Eat your heart out Idra and Artosis. Seriously guys, you just got exposed to be the narrow minded whiners that you are. Please stop posting Day9 videos on monday/tuesday as a point of argument, even catz does not consider that a series strategy that will work in top level play.. | ||
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