EPTall the recent posts seem to be about day9 not being a fan of imba talk (old) or full length novels.
thanks <3
also, storm > collossi
IMBALANCED! - Introduction - Page 66
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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content. You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical. Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
all the recent posts seem to be about day9 not being a fan of imba talk (old) or full length novels. thanks <3 also, storm > collossi | ||
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idonthinksobro
3138 Posts
On February 09 2011 09:46 gr8ape wrote: Mark my words, not once will they mention anything about zerg imbalance. i think they will make shows about zerg stuff as well, probably broodlords or infestors, maybe about burrowed roaches PvZ maybe they make a show about midgame queen spawn larva or so called 300food pushes. But since zerg ist a race that kinda need to use their momentum there are not so many units that are especially strong but you have to overwhelm your opponent with pure mass. /E also it doesnt matter what they dol if they make an episode about zerg everyone will be like oh yeah they just did a zerg is imba episode because everyone was bitching. And if the next episode is about Terran everyone will be hurr durr they are so biased they will never make an episode about zerg. | ||
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RoKetha
United States211 Posts
How dare anyone with knowledge about a topic state their thoughts on it with points for both sides without saying both views are totally equal, even if they honestly believe they are not equally valid. How irresponsible for people who are educated on a subject to say what they honestly think, because other people will whine about it. They might be wrong, and that's a crime on the internet. Artosis' goal here seems to be to just generate discussion and get other pros to actually say what they think rather than keep this taboo about balance at a high level and hope that Blizzard's band of two guys at a computer will figure out balance on their own. Maybe that would be appropriate if Blizzard showed any signs of actually knowing what they are doing, but from the beginning they've been throwing out random changes (case in point: drop reaper speed to 50/50 for an arbitrary and undisclosed reason, then effectively remove it from the game when it's too strong) and pretending like good maps are unimportant. Regrettably, many people here are actually focused on whether the content of the show the be-all-end-all and/or trying to draw direct conclusions from it so it's exploded into a storm. I thought they did a very good job of pointing out the metagame trends, and IdrA's statement about how the PvZ metagame is so solidly focused on Colossus that it's frustrating really rings true. That's not even a Zerg-favored complaint, because Protoss players seem to agree that they're frustrated with how relatively weak the more ability-focused gateway army is, and it's generated more talk of nerfing warp gate rushes somehow so the actual gateway units can be buffed, which would be a good step in my opinion because the current warp gate mechanic throws a wrench in most traditional methods of balance such as maps. | ||
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babolatt
Canada312 Posts
They talk about balance on state of the game, and although there is a clear lack of Terrans on almost every episode, there is at least a little variety and comments/criticisms by players who aren't primarily known for their rants about balance. | ||
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Space Invader
Australia291 Posts
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HighQuality
United States56 Posts
On February 09 2011 09:43 Cranberries wrote: The problem with using SC1 as some sort of comparison to SC2 is that people in SC1 were utter morons. People had no concept of 'timing', 'build orders', 'all ins', and the norm that is SC2 terminology. Not only that, but IdrA and Artosis are more than likely one-hundred times the player you'll ever be given you're quoting what Catz from team root has said: and he himself is pretty average at best. If you actually believe what you wrote then you don't deserve to ever be taken seriously. None of these ideas are new and have existed before SC1 came out. | ||
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idonthinksobro
3138 Posts
On February 09 2011 10:01 Space Invader wrote: I'm pretty sure Sean is good friends with Dan and Greg, and when I was watching the daily I didn't perceive his comments about their show to be anything other than poking fun. There's a big difference between a playful joke and actually dissing someone. they probably are but there are way to many day9 fanyboys that turn of their brains and take everything that day9 is saying for the one and only absoulte truth. Shocker + Show Spoiler + day9 can be wrong The problem with that is people streaming into this thread saying stuff like day9 said your show is stupid, so they dont care about the content at all and make a hateful comment and thats sad. Check the first 5-8 pages of the thread people just made random comments without even watching the video and there were mass bans/warns the thread was closed and reopened and in general there was way too much drama about a topic people should be able to talk about, but whenever the topic is balance every troll on the whole internet seems to be in these kinda threads and spam their pointless 2 lines saying no you are wrong because i dont know but you are wrong. | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
some of you people shouldn't be allowed to post | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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Serpico
4285 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On February 09 2011 10:29 Serpico wrote: I feel like something about warpgates needs to be changed so gateway units can be buffed. Especially with more big maps and how warpgates diminish the defender's advantage with reinforcements. Well... it may be an issue of players not getting the full use out of their Warpgates. Teleporting units into place lends itself strongly to spread-out harassment styles... not so much to ball vs. ball. If you DO want to ball vs. ball without your AOE monsters, you need upgrades, you need to warp directly into battle, and you need to be willing to do 300 food styles + trade armies whenever the opportunity presents itself. I'm not willing to declare no-Colossus no-Storm no-VRay armies illegitimate. But obviously you'll need to have a higher econ-to-econ ratio than in 'Death Ball' PvX (via harass/aggression/big expanding). And it will probably be unmanageable on smaller maps. And adding in Colossus later, when you have a high base count + ground upgrades, is easy and devastating. I am still ticked that Speedlots are slow and Dragoons have crap damage and crap damage upgrades, though. | ||
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Musoeun
United States4324 Posts
On February 09 2011 10:00 babolatt wrote: Saying you can only address the content not the hosts on a discussion about imbalance is pretty ridiculous. These are two members of the community who are synonymous with imbalance complaints. It's just not realistic to take the content itself in a vacuum... You can take the show itself seriously or not - but if you address what they say, you have to address what they say, not blow it off with, "Well yeah but I don't care because you're a whiner." IOW, there's a place to talk about whether or not idra's a whiner, but when you're talking about any particular thing he says, talk about it, not idra. On February 09 2011 10:11 HighQuality wrote: If you actually believe what you wrote then you don't deserve to ever be taken seriously. None of these ideas are new and have existed before SC1 came out. On the contrary, he's spot on. This is a famous game of Broodwar between two of the greats - after two years of professional play. A simple count of production buildings will tell you both players have to be "floating" thousands of resources for most of the game. Macro? Heh. SC2 was better developed than that after two weeks of beta. (Okay, probably an exaggeration.) There's simply no meaningful way you can compare the early days of the two games. The Brood War scene was built on almost nothing but trial and error. The SC2 scene, while working with a new game, is building on a metagame and understanding exemplified by Stork, Jaedong, and Flash. Because of the metagame development over the years, to talk about SC2 development you have to compare SC2's starting point at BW, I would say, somewhere around 2004-2005, when most of the basic concepts were finally understood and widely practiced. sAviOr was probably the first really "modern" SC player (of the big names, maybe oov but not earlier than that), and SC2 is already starting with a "modern" game understanding. (He's probably wrong about Catz being mediocre, if that's any comfort, unless he just meant mediocre in pro terms.  ) | ||
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Jerome
25 Posts
but regardless It seems like there are plenty of people who considers options to be viable when they are not. I think this video sets the discussion on the right track. In example of how wrong a track the discussion can go to is; a protoss player suggests neural parasite to help dealing with colossi. I think thats a very singleminded way of thinking it, since never has there been a colossi wandering about on its own. Neural Parasite does nothing against a protoss ball of death. Think many would appreciate it, if people both unintentionally and intentionally stops suggesting neural parasite for dealing with colossi. It is as stupid as suggesting that queens should autoinject larva, and autoheal like medivacs. the reasoning should be selfexplanatory, but just in case. Infestors gets killed by colossi entourage. Queens would run out of energy, and u may want it to use its energy better than an ai. | ||
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
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Space Invader
Australia291 Posts
On February 09 2011 09:46 gr8ape wrote: Mark my words, not once will they mention anything about zerg imbalance. Way to completely ignore the warning Chill gave, as well as not watch the video where the very first imbalanced unit they talk about is a Zerg unit. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On February 09 2011 11:36 Space Invader wrote: Way to completely ignore the warning Chill gave, as well as not watch the video where the very first imbalanced unit they talk about is a Zerg unit. No. They said that the old version of the Roach, back in the 1-supply 2-armor days, was imbalanced. That is no longer a Zerg unit. Artosis/Idra did not claim a Zerg unit is imbalanced. | ||
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hmsrenown
Canada1263 Posts
On February 09 2011 11:36 Space Invader wrote: Way to completely ignore the warning Chill gave, as well as not watch the video where the very first imbalanced unit they talk about is a Zerg unit. Of course the alpha roach, how could we forget. It doesn't exist anymore like three weeks into beta. | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On February 09 2011 11:45 Severedevil wrote: No. They said that the old version of the Roach, back in the 1-supply 2-armor days, was imbalanced. That is no longer a Zerg unit. Artosis/Idra did not claim a Zerg unit is imbalanced. what zerg unit is imbalanced then? I dont really see people cowering in fear of any zerg unit. | ||
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Space Invader
Australia291 Posts
On February 09 2011 11:45 Severedevil wrote: No. They said that the old version of the Roach, back in the 1-supply 2-armor days, was imbalanced. That is no longer a Zerg unit. Artosis/Idra did not claim a Zerg unit is imbalanced. Believe it or not, the roach is actually a zerg unit. Whether or not they talked about the roach as of the latest patch, the roach before it got the range boost, or the roach when sc2 was in beta, they did indeed talk about it. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On February 09 2011 12:02 Serpico wrote: what zerg unit is imbalanced then? I dont really see people cowering in fear of any zerg unit. I think there's a zerg units that made blizzard to change thor's air damage from single target to splash, missile turret from +vs armored to flat damage, stalker from 8(+6 vs armored) to 10(+4 vs armored) | ||
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