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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content. You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical. Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. | ||
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Ratel
Canada184 Posts
mass mutas annihilate collosai -they kill anything in large numbers INCLUDING GROUND so why bother getting corruptors while you can get mutas instead believe it or not its pretty hard to catch up in phenoix production / transition to ht tech if you scouted too late or. Also in large number mutas > stalkers and i dont think the toss would have barely enough stalkers to deal with mass mutas if he invested in robo tech previously | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On February 09 2011 12:27 canikizu wrote: I think there's a zerg units that made blizzard to change thor's air damage from single target to splash, missile turret from +vs armored to flat damage, stalker from 8(+6 vs armored) to 10(+4 vs armored) and they still get rolled by marine/tank/turret pushes. | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
On February 09 2011 12:27 canikizu wrote: I think there's a zerg units that made blizzard to change thor's air damage from single target to splash, missile turret from +vs armored to flat damage, stalker from 8(+6 vs armored) to 10(+4 vs armored) And now after those changes, top level players don't fear the mutalisk as an imbalanced unit. As a zerg player (master league but compared to the pros im terrible) the only "units" I could see as imbalanced are the broodlord (vs terran only) and the infestor. The strength of the zerg comes with map control and the macro mechanics (if you manage to get a good economy early). Yes, we may find in the future that zerg macro is too strong, or zerg can hold map control too easily, but that is really hard to talk about in a "fixable" way. You can't just point to the collosus and say "its all that units fault." That's not how zerg really works. So maybe in the future, they will devote an episode to the races macro abilities and say some things against zerg (I'm not saying zerg macro is imbalanced, but that's really what makes zerg strong, so if anything is imbalanced, it would probably be that) | ||
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VoiceOfDecember
Australia206 Posts
On February 09 2011 12:17 Space Invader wrote: Believe it or not, the roach is actually a zerg unit. Whether or not they talked about the roach as of the latest patch, the roach before it got the range boost, or the roach when sc2 was in beta, they did indeed talk about it. I think what space invater was trying to say is that Artosis and Idra will not say any current Zerg unit is imba. I don't see why they wouldn't? Unless there is no Zerg unit that is imba? I reccon when used right, nydus can fuck people over. Popping into ur base killing ur production and escaping thru the worm to the 3rd base to snipe the CC/Nexus/Hatch and to then dissapear again. Whole army untouched doing vital dmg. Is that Imba? I dunno, I'll actually do something about it and email the show and have them talk about it | ||
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JoeJin
United States77 Posts
Anyway, I had several instances where I would be facing a Protoss and I was Zerg. Having the general experience of a Master Protoss, and the natural tendancies to watch endless amounts of Root.Catz, IdrA's, and CellaWerrA's Stream I tend to figure out some very general ways to get the build orders set up. What I found is that; while the Collosus are a powerful unit, they can be held back by use of Brood lords, and by the time that the Protoss generally has a Giant Ball of Collo's you would have Hive, or at least be well on your way to it. Then I found that a good amount of Brood's (5-6 (Expensive yes, but very nice)) can seems to create a good amount of damage toward the army. Though you can be in fear of the Blink stalkers that always love to go with the Collo's, Remember to build a few infestors, due to the semi-recent patch where they can't blink in fungal, it makes them very immobile. Now, admittedly, I cannot say that I have a great opinion different than anyone who has played ~1000 games of Zerg who actually knows the real in's and outs, but I believe that a good way to fight against the Collosus, would be a Corruptor / Brood + Hydra / Roach combo would do wonders. It has done wonders for me on the times that I had a longer ECO game on my random plays. AGAIN << I am a Protoss player that had switched to Random, so I will definitely not have the knowledge of a Veteran Zerg, just offering my point. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
Looking at Colos like they magically appear is just a silly concept doomed to failure from the onset. It's an entirely myopic way to look at balance, and completely and utterly useless. After seeing day[9]'s mass queen Monday Funday, I think that buffing their HP and reducing their build time/cost to make massing a few quick easy will fix all of Zerg's problems early game, and thus help to mid and late. Does that mean it's good? Dunno. It's theorycraft, just like this show. Just because they're big names, doesn't excuse them for not thinking critically about the game in it's entirely when talking about one unit's potential balance. It's a garbage thinking process that'll produce garbage thoughts, no matter how much knowledge you input. | ||
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DARKHYDRA
United States303 Posts
On February 09 2011 07:24 La1 wrote: Pool 200 Lair - 150 / 100 IPit - 100/100 Hive 250/100 Ultra Cavern 150/200 850/500 gate way 150 core 150 robo 200/100 RObo 200/200 range (otherwise they are horrible) 200/200 900/500 Cost about the same.. and i don't care how credible idras thoughts are, i think he is horribly biased and wrong so i will state that. Have you seen him do any deviation from ling muta or roach hydra corruptor in big gsl games? no. You gotta compare the build times to not just cost and since building a queen means you cannot morph that hatch into a lair until the queen pops out add 65sec for that. One more thing, teching straight to ultras means that your only units are gonna be lings, queens and infestors. Ultras + Queens for transfusion is a good combo but u need a lot of hatcheries to build a lot of queens and are even more dependant on creep spread than with a hydra army. Looking forward to the next episode. | ||
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Harmonious
179 Posts
I am NOT saying that is imbalanced or not, just that there are huge unexplored holes in the strategical and tactical landscape of all three races. And the reason they are unexplored is that people just haven't seen them yet. Compare it to the huge strategical innovations and tactical improvements that came after many years of Brood War being played professionally (Flash and Bisu builds and Jaedong micro for example). Things might be imbalanced, but thinking like that does not make you a better gamer. | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On February 09 2011 10:52 Musoeun wrote: You can take the show itself seriously or not - but if you address what they say, you have to address what they say, not blow it off with, "Well yeah but I don't care because you're a whiner." IOW, there's a place to talk about whether or not idra's a whiner, but when you're talking about any particular thing he says, talk about it, not idra. On the contrary, he's spot on. This is a famous game of Broodwar between two of the greats - after two years of professional play. A simple count of production buildings will tell you both players have to be "floating" thousands of resources for most of the game. Macro? Heh. SC2 was better developed than that after two weeks of beta. (Okay, probably an exaggeration.) There's simply no meaningful way you can compare the early days of the two games. The Brood War scene was built on almost nothing but trial and error. The SC2 scene, while working with a new game, is building on a metagame and understanding exemplified by Stork, Jaedong, and Flash. Because of the metagame development over the years, to talk about SC2 development you have to compare SC2's starting point at BW, I would say, somewhere around 2004-2005, when most of the basic concepts were finally understood and widely practiced. sAviOr was probably the first really "modern" SC player (of the big names, maybe oov but not earlier than that), and SC2 is already starting with a "modern" game understanding. (He's probably wrong about Catz being mediocre, if that's any comfort, unless he just meant mediocre in pro terms.  )hahaha  I can't recall saying im mediocre, my mechanics aren't godlike, im always working on that and constantly improving, but my brain works just fine. I am, by my own standards and judgement, one of the best zerg players in NA, in one of the best teams of North America (this last one without a doubt), also, I am probably the most handsome zerg in the world.ofc there aren't a lot of good zerg players in NA, and there is always room for improvement FOR EVERYONE, and I am not sure what defines mediocre, but I can and have beat almost every P and T players i've faced, my zvz's probably what you would call 'mediocre' but its good enough to beat 99.9% of people who play this game. "you havent faced any top koreans!" you may say. I have only faced TheStC and I lost 1-2, I have an extensive losing record vs IdrA, around 1-6 or so, but then again i despise and by my own standards: suck at zvz. either way, Mr.Cranberries is wrong in many ways, obviously all those concepts existed in sc1 and were a lot more developed and used in terms of strategy to apply them to a 10+ year old game that changed consistently, with no patches or anything. Trolls are trolls and will always be trollolololols. Also, im sure (no offense shawn) I could 10-0 Day9... but this doesn't really mean that I understand or know the better as well as he does. Back on topic: Queens are NOT imbalanced, saying that is plain silly. and getting them in LARGE numbers doesn't even seem like a great idea, though in combination with broodlords and especially vs T, they are pretty damn strong. Are queens usable? sure... are they underused? sure... will they be more used in the future? maybe... people are just starting to use infestors now, which i find rather sad, the unit is fantastic, but this is a NEW game with plenty of shit to discover for quite some time. and it will be a relatively new game in comparison to sc1 for a while... so chill! | ||
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Skrelt
Netherlands306 Posts
On February 09 2011 02:14 asha wrote: 3600 terran sais, lol. -,ldrA is not that good :/ everyone sais he is top Zerg but how come he never gets far in GSL? Because he's not that good, MANY better zergs out there. They just dont play as much as him or get sponsored because gaming isnt their life. Collu is easy to deal with as Z, Even me (terran player) can handle that simple. You know its coming everygame lol. Just frustrating to loose to because you know it is coming. People like ldrA needs to realize that he can only blame himself when he looses. NOT the balance of the game how can you say idra isnt that good? He does come far in the GSL, He won his first MLG in a great way and in the EG master notebook final vs QXC he was briliant aswell. Last gsl i think i found him the best zerg out there. but i think his vsJ(inro) is lacking. On: I think they made some verygood point on what they think is right an wrong. But i just dont like te show. Playing the game and enjoy it the way it is i do like a lot more. (i play zerg, and enjoy it) | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
I tried to use mass queen and got destroyed T____________________________________T | ||
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Harmonious
179 Posts
On February 09 2011 19:07 CatZ.root wrote: Queens are NOT imbalanced, saying that is plain silly. and getting them in LARGE numbers doesn't even seem like a great idea, though in combination with broodlords and especially vs T, they are pretty damn strong. Are queens usable? sure... are they underused? sure... will they be more used in the future? maybe... people are just starting to use infestors now, which i find rather sad, the unit is fantastic, but this is a NEW game with plenty of shit to discover for quite some time. and it will be a relatively new game in comparison to sc1 for a while... so chill! I think the important point to draw from the funday monday episode is not so much about queens, but about the vast expanses of unexplored strategical territory left in the game. (As you say). I think there will be a place for the Reaper yet. Brood war might have taken many years to get to where sc2 is now, but it is, and has been for many years, far ahead of where sc2 is now. For example, Bisu said several years ago (other people might have said it before him) that unit ratios are very important with protoss. It is very bad to build 1 zealot, then 2 zealots then 4. You must build 1, then 3 then 5, because that is much better. I don't know why that is, but can anyone say that the understanding of sc2 is at that level? Even close to that? | ||
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Dragonsven
United States145 Posts
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Eurekastreet
1308 Posts
Not because I think game balance isn't important but because when I'm done reading I always get the feeling I haven't learned anything really new - and i watched these videos to have fun and/or learn about the game. As a toss low rated player, I get this vague feeling properly used colossi are indeed overpowered units for a 200 zerg mixed army vs 200 toss mixed army but it's just a feeling and it doesn't take into account sooooo many elements it's actually irrelevant... (time and resources it took to build the army and how earlier attacks could have changed the game, droning speed - zergs seem to max drone much faster when the game is going in a macro direction, map/natural expo setup, how the army compo could tilt the fight in one direction with a slight change in the mix, speed at which races can replenish their armies, how all the other earlier game decisions and built (used/unused) structures influence that fight, and so on and so on) it's impossible to compute with my little brain. Whether the same thing is discussed by pros makes it a little bit more interesting but still not a game changer (pun intended...erm, dunno) Therefore I actually trust Blizzard to balance the game for me, and they seem to do a great great work at it. And that's sometthing I'd try to include in the show to make it worthwhile (for me) : invite people from Blizzard to explain how they work to balance the game : methods used, for each race, for each unit (?), how the testing is done in-house, who works on it, how often, how many matches are analyzed, and what matches are analyzed (from bronze to master, just master, etc) to buff/nerf units and so on. Another thing I'd love to be included in that show is a more mathematical analysis of a maxed army vs another maxed army and how unit miox can potentially influence the results . Again there's so many datas to take into consideration it'd require (if feasable at all) some math genius to make simulations on which has got the best potential but - for once - that's math lessons I'd be curious to listen to/read about. Btw, only have played SC2 for 6 months, maybe that's something that's already available out there but if so, I don't know about it.... All in all, it's a nice effort from Idra and Artosis, I get this feeling the show has potential but, past the above , 2 extra subjective comments a) why so grey ? work on the production would help a bit. We're used to see you two guys under spotlights, with make up, whatever. With that setup, it's like watching those pics of Katy Perry the morning after. Something's lost. I guess it takes some money to work it all but it shouldn't be impossible to fix. I know I don't have to look the video but that's another issue. b) why so serious ? I don't need blond jokes but you're so serious throughout the whole show some silly comments now and then wouldn't hurt ( I like irony in my coffee) PS : watching GSTL while typing, zergs mass armies seem to do good today, even vs colossi. Discussion goes on... | ||
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apalemorning
Canada509 Posts
On February 09 2011 19:07 CatZ.root wrote: I could 10-0 Day9 show match catz?  | ||
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icezar
Germany240 Posts
Yes! Please! and more fun it will be if you do the "beat `em with each race" :-)) | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
One way to nerf the Colossus - without touching their combat stats - would be to make the area required for the unit bigger and/or limiting the number of gateway units they can have between their legs. This has the effect of being unable to "stack" several Colossi as much as they are now and basically reduces the "dps per army space". One Colossus isnt that hard, but the big problem comes when the "critical number" is reached and the Protoss army is the "tightest ball" of the three races. Thors are pretty big, but it seems like you can fit two or three Colossi into the space of a single Thor. Being able to stack powerful units makes them even more powerful. Zerg are really unable to stack their ground forces as much and a tighly packed opposing army hinders the many "melee" units (including the short range Roach) of Zerg. With this change Protoss are only affected when they have a big number of Colossi, but the beginning is the same. Thors and Ultralisks are moving somewhat clumsily, but Colossi always move in straight lines, adding this clumsiness to the Colossus might make them harder to micro and thus easier to kill. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On February 09 2011 16:13 DARKHYDRA wrote: You gotta compare the build times to not just cost and since building a queen means you cannot morph that hatch into a lair until the queen pops out add 65sec for that. One more thing, teching straight to ultras means that your only units are gonna be lings, queens and infestors. Ultras + Queens for transfusion is a good combo but u need a lot of hatcheries to build a lot of queens and are even more dependant on creep spread than with a hydra army. Looking forward to the next episode. You do not need extra hatches to get a lot of queens. I suggest watching one of your replays and seeing just how often your hatchery is idle. Yes, you can't get a queen while upgrading to lair (or getting burrow, drop, or overlord speed). It's not a big deal. You can still get a large amount of queens in a short amount of time on two or three hatches. I actually think queens would be quite effective against these new protoss builds. The main trick seems to be "force hydras with air units, then get colossi and rape the hydras." Except queens are actually pretty damn good against colossus (they take a ton of hits to kill, and can hit the colossus from far away). And the queens will be great against the air units. And they don't even cost gas! | ||
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PeaNuT_T
Sweden326 Posts
NOTHING bad can come out of this other then that you might actually learn something. Also stoping bitching about them being biased Artosis is protoss and IdrA zerg. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 09 2011 19:34 Harmonious wrote: I think the important point to draw from the funday monday episode is not so much about queens, but about the vast expanses of unexplored strategical territory left in the game. (As you say). I think there will be a place for the Reaper yet. Brood war might have taken many years to get to where sc2 is now, but it is, and has been for many years, far ahead of where sc2 is now. For example, Bisu said several years ago (other people might have said it before him) that unit ratios are very important with protoss. It is very bad to build 1 zealot, then 2 zealots then 4. You must build 1, then 3 then 5, because that is much better. I don't know why that is, but can anyone say that the understanding of sc2 is at that level? Even close to that? I've seen some interesting uses of the reaper lately. 2 reapers early can limit a zerg's ability to scout SIGNIFICANTLY and can also snipe creep tumors to keep creep from spreading. It's still a little hard to transition out of as smoothly as you might like, but it's interesting none the less. I think as people put more emphasis on managing a zerg's creep spread we will see more reaper usage. Even mid game it wouldn't be a bad idea to field 1-2 reapers with speed for creep hunting duty since they can stay sufficiently ahead of speedlings so long as they don't get caught in the open far away from anything like a cliff or friendlies. To me the funday monday just showed how you should consider extra queens as a strategic option for early/mid game. Since then I've been using 4-5 queens as my response to something looking like a 3-gate expand or potential stargate/dt play. If they go dts I'm not spending gas on units so I'll have lair in time. If they go air I have enough queens to really hold any 1 stargate play and enough to buy time to defend 2 stargate play. If they make a 6 gate push the queens help to make burrow more obtainable (you can have slightly less roaches which saves on gas) and also helps to really strengthen your roach force. If they don't push out then you can spread creep like mad and use the extra queens for your 3rd and eventual 4th. | ||
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