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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. |
On February 08 2011 22:54 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 22:24 tgthan wrote:
If Terran is ok with Vikings then Zerg should be fine with Corruptors. Corruptors are a little faster, has 80 more life and do little more dps to a Collosus than a Viking if you use corruption, right? The Viking cost 25 less gas and has 3 more range. If an anti-air flying unit is supposed to be the only answer, I don't see why Zerg is any worse off than Terran. this has been discussed over and over in this very thread. Yes vikings are better than corruptor at sniping colossi, with slightly better dps even with corruption, and better range. Having more hp and armor mean nothing when you're only purpose is to snipe as fast as possible one unit. Vikings, with their range, can stay behind MMM/tank line. And so on...
If you remember what page its discussed let me know, I would appreciate it.
As for the dps, yeah I was wrong, in my original post I was looking at the ground bonus for vikings. But I disagree that the extra hit points aren't useful when trying to pick off Colossus.
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Vikings do more DPS to a collossi IIRC, or nearly the same, as a corruptor but does it from the safety of 3 hexes further, if corruptors had 10 range their would be nothing wrong with the MU at all, they could take pot shots and the stalkers would have to try and get to them in identical fashion as they do vs terran.
I really wish people would realize that Artosis plays protoss now and played it at the Code A qualifiers? If so he actually won some games which made him second only to Torch out of the foreigners who actually played that qualification, I can't see how anyone would argue that he was biased towards a race he no longer played and directly try to nerf one of his current races stronger units.
People really should learn to take their bias towards players out of their reasoning before they criticize the bias of those players towards their race, bit hypocritical.
Love the show and hope to see more episodes in the future.
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On February 08 2011 23:12 norlock wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 23:05 karpo wrote:
"Pillars of the community", don't make me laugh. One of these pillars is infamous for his bm and whine, and this is the one who's going to discuss balance without bias? Almost everyone agrees that Idra, does have a sharp rational mind and is not biased.
yeah  Very good player but...
I hope they make episode 2  No news yet?
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I'd like to see an episode on mules and the macro mechanics in general.
Colossus are great damage dealers yes but they are extremely expensive walking targets that need so much babysitting and take a long time to build. Overall what Idra said about loosing your army to take down the colossus then remaxing and going again is so viable because of the time it takes to get the colossus count back up and how much weaker the army is without them.
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He may have been joking but there is an element of truth to it. Tasteless stated that he felt mules should be on a cooldown on his Facebook page when asked what still needs to be tweaked and I think I've heard it elsewhere too. I think a cooldown for mules makes perfect sense. It puts it more inline with larva injects and chronoboost where you have to be somewhat responsible with it. I think it would be an interesting discussion if Artosis and IdrA talked about mules in comparison the other macro abilities.
Tasteless hasn't done math on mules, and neither have you.
Casual nerf x buff z thoughts without actually finding out if something is broken or not is not the way to go.
Good thing Blizzard is doing the balancing in this game.
Also, still waiting for Imbalanced ep 2 
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On February 08 2011 23:17 Ben... wrote:
Tasteless stated that he felt mules should be on a cooldown on his Facebook page when asked what still needs to be tweaked and I think I've heard it elsewhere too.
Maybe from me....in the middle of August....oh well, what do I know....
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=145523
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Vikings, Corrupters, Phoenix, VRs? Doesn't matter, and here's why
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Artosis and IdrA hit the nail on the head when they said you are forced to 'overmake' the counter. They elaborate by describing what they mean by using that terminology and I completely agree. You actually need to be able to one shot every Colossus until they are all dead to have a chance at trading supply. This is rendered virtually impossible when the Protoss opponent peppers in Phoenix/VRs as buffers.
I disagree with how they glossed over TvP, but I can understand why they did; they do not have as much experience playing TvP. The matchup is not fine, imo.
Adding Spellcasters to the Gateway Colossus Ball (GCB) makes it even worse. I get that some people disagree that the Phoenix is a spellcaster, but it basically is. It casts "hold person" and transforms the target into an immobile air unit. So, you take the GCB and account for the Sentry, the Phoenix, and if it is late game, maybe a contingent of HTs and it is basically invulnerable.
I don't know how to fix Protoss, but something is broken in the TvP and the ZvP matchups.
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I don't know how to fix Protoss, but something is broken in the TvP and the ZvP matchups.
Possibly (I don't think so) but in TvP it's not the colossus. You can be aggressive enough as Terran to keep colossus numbers low, in ZvP it's different since zerg are so defence focused that the Protoss tactic of turtling to a huge death ball and then moving it out is more effective.
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On February 08 2011 23:45 TimeSpiral wrote:
Vikings, Corrupters, Phoenix, VRs? Doesn't matter, and here's why
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Artosis and IdrA hit the nail on the head when they said you are forced to 'overmake' the counter. They elaborate by describing what they mean by using that terminology and I completely agree. You actually need to be able to one shot every Colossus until they are all dead to have a chance at trading supply. This is rendered virtually impossible when the Protoss opponent peppers in Phoenix/VRs as buffers.
I disagree with how they glossed over TvP, but I can understand why they did; they do not have as much experience playing TvP. The matchup is not fine, imo.
Adding Spellcasters to the Gateway Colossus Ball (GCB) makes it even worse. I get that some people disagree that the Phoenix is a spellcaster, but it basically is. It casts "hold person" and transforms the target into an immobile air unit. So, you take the GCB and account for the Sentry, the Phoenix, and if it is late game, maybe a contingent of HTs and it is basically invulnerable.
I don't know how to fix Protoss, but something is broken in the TvP and the ZvP matchups.
strong words, I play Terran and I don't have the feeling that Protoss is _broken_. ofc you can do an insane mix of protossunits and say this is superstrong.
But I think if Terran has some ghosts in the mix, nothing protoss has is unbeatable.
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When will there be a ep2? any1 knows?
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On February 08 2011 23:45 TimeSpiral wrote:
Vikings, Corrupters, Phoenix, VRs? Doesn't matter, and here's why
==================================================
Artosis and IdrA hit the nail on the head when they said you are forced to 'overmake' the counter. They elaborate by describing what they mean by using that terminology and I completely agree. You actually need to be able to one shot every Colossus until they are all dead to have a chance at trading supply. This is rendered virtually impossible when the Protoss opponent peppers in Phoenix/VRs as buffers.
I disagree with how they glossed over TvP, but I can understand why they did; they do not have as much experience playing TvP. The matchup is not fine, imo.
Adding Spellcasters to the Gateway Colossus Ball (GCB) makes it even worse. I get that some people disagree that the Phoenix is a spellcaster, but it basically is. It casts "hold person" and transforms the target into an immobile air unit. So, you take the GCB and account for the Sentry, the Phoenix, and if it is late game, maybe a contingent of HTs and it is basically invulnerable.
I don't know how to fix Protoss, but something is broken in the TvP and the ZvP matchups.
So do you consider One Ghost too many to make to "counter" the protoss death ball? I can't imagine anyone allowing their opponents to get mass gateway, multiple robos, enough sentries for FFs, stargates for phoenixes, and archives for a "contigency" of templar, and expect to win. What does that game situation look like? Your opponent must have been sitting unbothered on his side of the map with 4 bases for 20 minutes. If that's the case (which it would almost have to be, considering you've covered every single tech tree short of fleet beacon/dark shrine), you as a terran should have about 40 marine/marauders, 6 thors, 10 tanks, a fleet of BCs and vikings, and a contingency of ghosts to deal with it off of your respective 5 bases..
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On February 08 2011 22:04 mcmartini wrote:
I dont know if he still does but I have personally heard day9 call mules imbalanced on several occasions during dailies so for those claiming he doesn't whine Bout it are clearly wrong he does but more subtley. However I watched this first ep and artosis and idra are far from subtle this is not a bad thing this should be promoting discussion about collussus but most people take it as post to flame programers who have a lot more experience then most people (and surely me) on these forums at "the pro level" which is what they're discussing.
Just because the first episode focussed mainly on problems in ZvP doesn't mean the rest will time will tell if this "bias" continues. Genuinely looking forward to the next episode as it has given me more insight into how the pros view balance. I also remember hearing somewhere that boxer talks to David Kim about balance so the pros do have some input into changes for sure.
day plays random
Idra and artosis play zerg and complain about zvp
for some reason i find Day9's opinoin more valueble
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Saying mule needs a cd is a bit of an ignorant fix imo.
I agree that dropping 8 mules on a newly-established gold base is kind of ridiculous, but there is no cd on chronoboost either. Obviously you can't use all your energy on one structure at the same time, but you can use full energy on your warpgates to get an army out faster. You can save your energy to chrono boost upgrades faster than any other race is capable of. Every other race has macro capabilities that seem "op" to other races from the outside looking in as well. I wish when I lost an army in a big battle I could run back to my base and have 36 marauders pop out at the same time ready to do more battle (given several hatches and using larva injects).
So while I do believe mass mule dropping a gold base is crazy, it's a little too much to simply say "mule needs a cd" when early game every terran is basically dropping every available mule to even keep up in economy. If you've ever seen a toss player that uses his chrono boost on his probes he will have 10 more than the terran in around 10 minutes....but the terran will have a mule down. Smarter people than you worked on making these macro mechanics somewhat balanced...although they possibly never will be in all scenarios and all respects.
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On February 09 2011 00:26 Ratel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 22:04 mcmartini wrote:
I dont know if he still does but I have personally heard day9 call mules imbalanced on several occasions during dailies so for those claiming he doesn't whine Bout it are clearly wrong he does but more subtley. However I watched this first ep and artosis and idra are far from subtle this is not a bad thing this should be promoting discussion about collussus but most people take it as post to flame programers who have a lot more experience then most people (and surely me) on these forums at "the pro level" which is what they're discussing.
Just because the first episode focussed mainly on problems in ZvP doesn't mean the rest will time will tell if this "bias" continues. Genuinely looking forward to the next episode as it has given me more insight into how the pros view balance. I also remember hearing somewhere that boxer talks to David Kim about balance so the pros do have some input into changes for sure. day plays random Idra and artosis play zerg and complain about zvp for some reason i find Day9's opinoin more valueble
artosis has switched to p not too long ago
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Dice,
Just because someone is great at a game doesn't make them unbiased. Idra is known for being extremely whiny about balance and Artosis was known for BM and whining in SC1 and being zerg biased in his casting. Some people feel that these two guys (who both play the same race) are not the best setup for determining what is imbalanced and what is not.
I never said that the reason IdrA was unbiased was because he is great at the game. Wouldn't you think that someone who is "extremely whiny" about certain things in a game, that there must be at least some kind of truth to the "whining"? IdrA has come a long way, and as of lately has not been very "whiny" or "bm". As for Artosis, I've never known him to have BM. Also, Artosis is a protoss player. What you aren't understanding is, it doesn't matter what race these guys play, they are speaking from TOP tier performances, this is something that nobody else on this forum can really do (there are some exceptions)...
In case you didn't know, Artosis casts hundreds of top level games. If any foreigner is MORE qualified than Artosis, please speak up now and let us know...
Greg and Dan keep up the good work.. Looking forward to the next episode if you guys decide to continue.
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On February 08 2011 23:17 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 22:08 The KY wrote:I dont know if he still does but I have personally heard day9 call mules imbalanced on several occasions during dailies so for those claiming he doesn't whine Bout it are clearly wrong he does but more subtley. You mean those times when he would say something like 'but hey it's ok if you lose your whole army and base as Terran, just float to the island and call down a bunch of mules, enjoy your 5-figure economy!' That wasn't whining, that was joking. He may have been joking but there is an element of truth to it.
Well yes otherwise the joke would make no sense.
For the record on the Friendday Wednesday (what happened to those? I liked those) with TLO Day says outright that 'mules are fine'.
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On February 09 2011 00:26 barbwire wrote:
Saying mule needs a cd is a bit of an ignorant fix imo.
I agree that dropping 8 mules on a newly-established gold base is kind of ridiculous, but there is no cd on chronoboost either. Obviously you can't use all your energy on one structure at the same time, but you can use full energy on your warpgates to get an army out faster. You can save your energy to chrono boost upgrades faster than any other race is capable of. Every other race has macro capabilities that seem "op" to other races from the outside looking in as well. I wish when I lost an army in a big battle I could run back to my base and have 36 marauders pop out at the same time ready to do more battle (given several hatches and using larva injects).
So while I do believe mass mule dropping a gold base is crazy, it's a little too much to simply say "mule needs a cd" when early game every terran is basically dropping every available mule to even keep up in economy. If you've ever seen a toss player that uses his chrono boost on his probes he will have 10 more than the terran in around 10 minutes....but the terran will have a mule down. Smarter people than you worked on making these macro mechanics somewhat balanced...although they possibly never will be in all scenarios and all respects.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL.
How can you describe that as an "ignorant fix"
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
If protoss misses a chronoboost, it's not like he can just stack chronoboosts on top of each other for even faster probes... If Zerg misses an inject, it's not like he can stack his injects for even faster drones... NO, both races get penalized for missing these things, UNLIKE the Terran race.
IMHO, If anyone has a problem with a cooldown for MULEs, it's because they don't want to have to macro better. Terran macro is already much easier than Zerg macro, why shouldn't there be a cooldown on MULEs? They are a ridiculous gatherer.
Like you said sir, Terran players drop every available mule to keep up in early game... Why can't Terran players to continue dropping every available mule throughout the whole game? That's what Zerg players do with injects throughout the ENTIRE game, as do protoss players with chronoboosting.
MULEs are definitely very powerful and having been a Terran player previously I can comfortably say that having a cooldown on MULEs should really not be a big deal, and I'm willing to bet that top players such as Liquid`Jinro, IMMvp, MarineKing.Prime would have no problem with this as well, because top players don't really miss their MULE drops too often.
Summary: Having a cooldown for MULEs shouldn't be a big deal to GOOD/GREAT terran players.
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Nice video, looking forward to this series.
Also at people complaining about them having zerg bias, you should judge an idea on it's own merit and not on who it came from.
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On February 09 2011 00:26 barbwire wrote:
Saying mule needs a cd is a bit of an ignorant fix imo.
I agree that dropping 8 mules on a newly-established gold base is kind of ridiculous, but there is no cd on chronoboost either. Obviously you can't use all your energy on one structure at the same time, but you can use full energy on your warpgates to get an army out faster. You can save your energy to chrono boost upgrades faster than any other race is capable of. Every other race has macro capabilities that seem "op" to other races from the outside looking in as well. I wish when I lost an army in a big battle I could run back to my base and have 36 marauders pop out at the same time ready to do more battle (given several hatches and using larva injects).
So while I do believe mass mule dropping a gold base is crazy, it's a little too much to simply say "mule needs a cd" when early game every terran is basically dropping every available mule to even keep up in economy. If you've ever seen a toss player that uses his chrono boost on his probes he will have 10 more than the terran in around 10 minutes....but the terran will have a mule down. Smarter people than you worked on making these macro mechanics somewhat balanced...although they possibly never will be in all scenarios and all respects.
Heyheyhey, if they put a cooldown in mule, it will not change anything for the early stage of the game since, as you said, terran already pump out their mules as fast as they can.
If they put a CD (say a bit less than mana regeneration) you will just not be able to put 8 mule at a time on a gold base, but everything else will stay unchanged.
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On February 09 2011 01:14 Dice. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 00:26 barbwire wrote:
Saying mule needs a cd is a bit of an ignorant fix imo.
I agree that dropping 8 mules on a newly-established gold base is kind of ridiculous, but there is no cd on chronoboost either. Obviously you can't use all your energy on one structure at the same time, but you can use full energy on your warpgates to get an army out faster. You can save your energy to chrono boost upgrades faster than any other race is capable of. Every other race has macro capabilities that seem "op" to other races from the outside looking in as well. I wish when I lost an army in a big battle I could run back to my base and have 36 marauders pop out at the same time ready to do more battle (given several hatches and using larva injects).
So while I do believe mass mule dropping a gold base is crazy, it's a little too much to simply say "mule needs a cd" when early game every terran is basically dropping every available mule to even keep up in economy. If you've ever seen a toss player that uses his chrono boost on his probes he will have 10 more than the terran in around 10 minutes....but the terran will have a mule down. Smarter people than you worked on making these macro mechanics somewhat balanced...although they possibly never will be in all scenarios and all respects. LOLOLOLOLOLOL. How can you describe that as an "ignorant fix" LOLOLOLOLOLOL If protoss misses a chronoboost, it's not like he can just stack chronoboosts on top of each other for even faster probes... If Zerg misses an inject, it's not like he can stack his injects for even faster drones... NO, both races get penalized for missing these things, UNLIKE the Terran race. IMHO, If anyone has a problem with a cooldown for MULEs, it's because they don't want to have to macro better. Terran macro is already much easier than Zerg macro, why shouldn't there be a cooldown on MULEs? They are a ridiculous gatherer. Like you said sir, Terran players drop every available mule to keep up in early game... Why can't Terran players to continue dropping every available mule throughout the whole game? That's what Zerg players do with injects throughout the ENTIRE game, as do protoss players with chronoboosting. MULEs are definitely very powerful and having been a Terran player previously I can comfortably say that having a cooldown on MULEs should really not be a big deal, and I'm willing to bet that top players such as Liquid`Jinro, IMMvp, MarineKing.Prime would have no problem with this as well, because top players don't really miss their MULE drops too often. Summary: Having a cooldown for MULEs shouldn't be a big deal to GOOD/GREAT terran players.
Removing the option to save mules would be a bit of a big deal. I'm not saying whether it should or shouldn't happen, but it would be a difference to good T players.
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EPT
