EPTIMBALANCED! - Introduction - Page 45
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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content. You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical. Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. | ||
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Damador
France57 Posts
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On February 05 2011 00:44 Defacer wrote: I don't think you can make this comparison fairly without including the costs of the units, tech structures, and the build times. Banelings are tier 1.5 and relatively cheap considering how much damage they can produce, for instance. I agree that cost would be an interesting thing to look at, but the comparison - as stated at the beginning of the post - is effective mobility. I play Protoss as well as Terran and some Zerg. Let's face it, cost is important but the Protoss is going to build Colossus and they're going to have a lot of them. So clearly, cost is not that big of an issue considering you see mass Colossus in just about every single game of every matchup. If cost was holding back the power of the Colossus then their usage wouldn't be so ubiquitous, as it is now. Right? | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On February 05 2011 00:11 maahes wrote: Hiding all this in a spoiler because it feels like the thread has gone to a better place. Keep testing shit out, Blacklizard. You are awesome. Can you share with me your methods? Like, did you use a custom map or whatnot? Right, a custom map. Try this... I think it will get you to a working version: http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/unit-tester/ "Map updated. To use online: Search "UnitTesterOnline" on NA server. Works with one or two players. To use offline: Open file in Map Editor and press Ctrl+F9. Get it here: http://rapidshare.com/files/444206047/TheUnitTester_v0.91.SC2Map Changelog here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124763¤tpage=7#135" | ||
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
Heh, the episode was interesting and the discussion pretty high level. I'll have to take your word for it, I'm too terrible to have any opinion on balance. | ||
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VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
On February 05 2011 00:37 TimeSpiral wrote: The Colossus is a Siege unit with no mobility restrictions ============================================ + Show Spoiler + Let's take a look at the Siege-level units and make a direct comparison with mobility and it's relationship with effectiveness. Terran's Siege Level Units • Siege Tank in SieGe Mode - Range: Requires upgrade. 2-11 (2-13 w/ spotter) - Cooldown: 3 Seconds - AoE: Three tiers, 1.25 Max radius at 25% damage. Causes friendly fire (1). - Movement Speed: Stationary. 4 second transformation time. - Health: 160 (very low) • Battlecruiser w/ Yamato Cannon - Range: 10, Requires upgrade. Not available immediately upon unit completion. - Cooldown: ONE Shot Per Engagement - AoE: Single Target - Movement Speed: 1.4062 (Extremely slow) - Health: Very High Zerg • Baneling - Range: Melee - Cooldown: Suicide Unit - AoE: 2.2, full damage. - Movement Speed: 2.5 (2.9531 with Centrifugal Hooks) x1.3 on creep (extremely fast). Can burrow (effectively invisible). - Health: Very low • Broodlord - Range: 9.5 (slightly more after Broodlings land) - Cooldown: 2.5 - AoE: Spawns multiple units per attack. - Movement Speed: 1.4062 (Extremely slow). Is a Flying unit. - Health: 225 (medium-high) Protoss • Colossus w/ Thermal Lance - Range: 9, requires upgrade - Cooldown: 1.65 (attacks twice per attack) - AoE: 100% damage, both lasers, .15 radius per laser, linear splash (can't find how long each Line is. My guess is 2, at least) - Movement Speed: 2.25 (Fast) Can walk over small cliffs and units. - Health: 350 (High) • Carrier / Interceptors - Range: 8 (effective 12 after Interceptors are launched) - Cooldown: Interceptor release .5 (0.125/0.25 affected by upgrade) - AoE: Interceptors can be focus fired or attack multiple targets. - Movement Speed: 1.875 (Very slow) - Health: 450 (Very High) When looking at this analysis the Colossus is clearly the most mobile and effective siege unit in the game when compared to the other units. It moves quickly, unrestrained by terrain, has a quick cooldown and attacks twice per volley. The splash damage is 100% across the entire linear radius and benefits doubly from ground attack upgrades at the forge. The AoE DPS of multiple Colossus combined with their mobility is un-rivaled. Nothing even comes close. The Colossus moves almost as quickly as a Stalker, which is a fast moving unit. All of the above combined with their very long range and high hit-points the DPS required to take them down before an entire ground force is obliterated seems too high. I agree with IdrA that over-making the A2A counter is the only way to effectively deal with Colossus which has major repercussions on the ground-battle aftermath. Current Protoss gameplay is bolstering their Colossus with Phoniex as air tanks making the investment in Vikings even more futile. The siege tank has a longer range but requires a spotter, cannot move, and fires extremely slowly in comparison. The Siege Tank is basically the antithesis of the Colossus. The Siege Tank fires so slowly, and has such poor mobility, that colossus heavy army with proper ground support will absolutely roll Siege Tanks in Siege Mode. I cannot suggest a fix, because I do not know what it would be, nor am I qualified to offer a fix, but the data certainly suggests that the Colossus has a high probability of being overpowered in every matchup. p.s. I hope this is not the last post on this page ... no one will see it. Darn. Footnotes (1) Units within .4687 of the Target are dealt full damage, units from a distance of .4687 to .7812 are dealt 50% of the full damage, and units from a distance of .7812 to 1.25 are dealt 25% Cant compare units like that because it doesnt take into account cost nor the mechanics and compositions of armies. The collosus is currently strong due to warpgate units being relatively weak in the mid/late game to their counterparts. Collosus is required to combat bio, and roach/hydra. It also melts warpgate/immortal so its relied upon each matchup. In terms of the video, as a protoss player I agree with what artosis is saying. Collosus is fine vs T. Not sure vs Z yet becase not enough data on larger maps. and vs P its was seeming like it was too strong (if game passes the 4 gate hump) but lately its been evolving since the void ray buff to massive. A topic which arises from the video is that why are P players so reliant on the collosus? I think this is more important then whether the collosus is OP or not. | ||
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LoLAdriankat
United States4307 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:01 VenerableSpace wrote: Cant compare units like that because it doesnt take into account cost nor the mechanics and compositions of armies. The collosus is currently strong due to warpgate units being relatively weak in the mid/late game to their counterparts. Collosus is required to combat bio, and roach/hydra. It also melts warpgate/immortal so its relied upon each matchup. In terms of the video, as a protoss player I agree with what artosis is saying. Collosus is fine vs T. Not sure vs Z yet becase not enough data on larger maps. and vs P its was seeming like it was too strong (if game passes the 4 gate hump) but lately its been evolving since the void ray buff to massive. A topic which arises from the video is that why are P players so reliant on the collosus? I think this is more important then whether the collosus is OP or not. (Bolded part is what I'm responding to) This is EXACTLY what IdrA and Artosis are talking about when they say that the colossus is a crutch for Protoss players. | ||
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CoupDeGrace
United States7 Posts
On February 04 2011 18:09 oesis wrote: CoupDeGrace I agree with you, people should know whether they are going to like a video before seeing it. If you dislike a video that is 30 minutes long you probably make up your mind before you finish the video. Sorry for a few minutes wasted. | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
Artosis and Idra have more than skill and knowledge to have a balance discussing but I feel that they agree to much with each other and they are too biased. I hope that they in future episodes can have different progamers/coaches or casters such as Day[9], like guest starring, discussing different balance subjects. Anyways, good luck with the show... this one is definetely nothing interesting for me. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:01 VenerableSpace wrote: Cant compare units like that because it doesnt take into account cost nor the mechanics and compositions of armies. The collosus is currently strong due to warpgate units being relatively weak in the mid/late game to their counterparts. Collosus is required to combat bio, and roach/hydra. It also melts warpgate/immortal so its relied upon each matchup. In terms of the video, as a protoss player I agree with what artosis is saying. Collosus is fine vs T. Not sure vs Z yet becase not enough data on larger maps. and vs P its was seeming like it was too strong (if game passes the 4 gate hump) but lately its been evolving since the void ray buff to massive. A topic which arises from the video is that why are P players so reliant on the collosus? I think this is more important then whether the collosus is OP or not. Why do people think you cannot make unit comparisons? Of course you can, especially if you define the comparison, which I did. How exactly does the comparison ignore game mechanics? The data used in the comparison directly affects gameplay mechanics and composition choices. Does it not? Cost is not a huge issue on the Protoss side of the table, imo. If it was an issue you wouldn't see it being such a prevalent strategy. I'm pretty sure cost was also ignored in the discussion between IdrA and Artosis, why? Because the Colossus exist in high numbers in every match up. Colossus play into expand is well within the economic confines of a 2 basing Protoss. Where cost I think becomes an issue is the investment required to counter the Protoss Deathball. | ||
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This is Aru
United States91 Posts
My main concern is that with Ship Weapons on Colossus, the synergy between Colossus and Void Ray will increase. | ||
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LoLAdriankat
United States4307 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:21 This is Aru wrote: Would moving Colossus to Ship Weapons/Armor for upgrades in the Cybernetics Core create more diversity in PvP? With this change, decisions would have to be made in upgrading Gateway/Immortal or upgrading Colossus. My main concern is that with Ship Weapons on Colossus, the synergy between Colossus and Void Ray will increase. Since Toss players get a cybernetics core after 1 gate anyway (whereas the forge pops up later), I think that a build order where your ship weapons upgrade finishes just as the first colossus pops out would become popular. I wonder how this kind of build order would compare to the current standard builds we have now. | ||
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Holes
Canada26 Posts
But I'll disagree with what they're saying. Colossus are a must because gateway units scale terribly into the late-game with upgrades. The reason Colossus are so heavily used is because it's the safest way to deal with any ground army. Ground armies tend to be the most widely used kinds. In PvZ it's up to the P to keep up with the Z normally. You see and expansion and you either expand or pressure to stay with them economically. Z try to get ahead by producing the bare minimum to defend the pressure, or harass the fast P expo. With Colossus I find it's up the Zerg keep up and take action. Keep the Colossus numbers down or get ahead of them with Corruptor production. You can do this by attacking before the critical mass of Colossus happens or monitor the Colossus numbers and produce Corruptors accordingly. You can usually get a base ot two ahead if you see them going Colossus because they won't move out until X Colossus or range is done. It's something people have trouble with, and probably the most viable Protoss strategy. But that's only because the alternatives aren't as versatile. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:21 This is Aru wrote: Would moving Colossus to Ship Weapons/Armor for upgrades in the Cybernetics Core create more diversity in PvP? With this change, decisions would have to be made in upgrading Gateway/Immortal or upgrading Colossus. My main concern is that with Ship Weapons on Colossus, the synergy between Colossus and Void Ray will increase. I'd rather not. Ship weapons are pretty good anyway. Maybe give the Colossus Ship Armor because Ship Armor kind of blows... but that shift would only cause the Forge to be used even less. The Colossus irritates me. It's very expensive to tech, and it stacks well with itself, so if you get them, you pretty much have to mass them. This is in stark contrast to the Reaver which was cheaper to tech, more effective in small numbers, and less effective in large ones. I don't think there's a solution better than replacing Colossi with Reavers, which would solve the problem of Colossus + Ground Weapons = LOLZ. Although if you must include the Colossus in your game, how about we get rid of its range upgrade (move it to the Immortal, please) and bump the base range up to seven? Now Colossi are cheaper to splash (no mandatory 200/200 upgrade; range seven is still solid) but less dominating when massed. | ||
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IAmSpooner
Sweden111 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:33 Severedevil wrote: Although if you must include the Colossus in your game, how about we get rid of its range upgrade (move it to the Immortal, please) and bump the base range up to seven? Now Colossi are cheaper to splash (no mandatory 200/200 upgrade; range seven is still solid) but less dominating when massed. I agree, I always felt that the range difference between the immortal (5) and colossi (9) is too much. Colossi are usually better than the immortal against armored units (take roaches for example). | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On February 05 2011 00:53 sob3k wrote: They said why right in the video. Vikings are much better against collossi than corruptors. I disagree. Corruptors have modestly more DPS vs. Colossi (if you're using Corrupt) than do Vikings, and Corruptors have double the durability. That's enough to make up for the lesser range. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:43 Severedevil wrote: I disagree. Corruptors have modestly more DPS vs. Colossi (if you're using Corrupt) than do Vikings, and Corruptors have double the durability. That's enough to make up for the lesser range. dps is pretty much the same if we assume corruption. and i rather have a range 9 unit (=collosus range) then a slightly more sturdier range 6 unit. esp when the range 6 unit is more expensive. vs something like carriers yeah corrupters are better cause the 2 armor matters alot there and the range 9 barely matters. vs like evrything else including and esp the collosus the viking is way superior. the corrupter is just a very expensive air roach with corruption instead of burrow movement as a gimmick. | ||
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FreedonNadd
Austria573 Posts
Give value and feedback to the community? Show real flaws in the game? Hope that it gets viewed by other players and increase the pressure on the game creator? Hope that it gets nerfed/buffed in order to increase your own chance as a pro to win? If you live from wins, is it important to have your own race improved? 2. What could be the result of such a video ? Result in flaming on the forums, especially where it is published ? Does these pro's know that something like a video in this format (even if it is based on the comment of 2 pro's in a professional environment with professional equipment) will result in a flamewar on the precious forum where they publish it? Does it have consequences if a normal player would make a thread called: Imbalance? 3. Would you publish such a 30min video, as a pro, where you demand incredible amounts of money as a trainer on coaching, and earn your life with it, without a glimpse of "profit"? Value for the community, without provoking a flamewar, was that the true intention? 4. Would it be balanced, if all pros would make such a video? | ||
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Cranberries
Wales567 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:43 Severedevil wrote: I disagree. Corruptors have modestly more DPS vs. Colossi (if you're using Corrupt) than do Vikings, and Corruptors have double the durability. That's enough to make up for the lesser range. Vikings do: 12 dps Vikings have: 9 range Vikings cost: 150 minerals, 75 gas Vikings have: 125 hp Corruptors do: 10.8 dps Corruptors have: 6 range Corruptors cost: 150 minerals, 100 gas Corruptors have: 200 hp Even with Corruption (20% more damage) Corruptors only do 12.96 dps. That's only .96 more DPS with a CD, while costing more, having less range, taking roughly the same time to build. The only plus is their health and (slightly better) mobility. Vikings are better. Without question. | ||
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VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:13 LoLAdriankat wrote: (Bolded part is what I'm responding to) This is EXACTLY what IdrA and Artosis are talking about when they say that the colossus is a crutch for Protoss players. Cant tweak the numbers on warpgate units because that would break the early game. One PvT evolution that is interesting is the build first shown by hongunprime in GSL. Assuming somewhat larger maps. FE, 3 gate into double forge. Fast 2-2 can potentially hold of terran bio timing pushes. From this point there are several options which can lead to macro or pressure. More gates to pressure, fast charge, HT transition, DT's. The nature of the build shows roboust P can be IF they can hold off early/mid stim attacks with warpgate units. There needs to be a way where gateway units are able to compete in a non gimmecky way in the mid game without breaking the early game in their favor. The PvT double forge build rectifies their mid game weakness in a sense but it also opens up other earlier attack timings. Again this build depends on maps, on larger maps the earlier attack timings can be accounted for in the meta game. If this can be fixed then the collosus wouldnt need to be as strong as it is. it can play more of a support role as the reaver did in BW. but as of right now the gateway units are used to either break the other guy by removing defenders advantage or trying to buy time while trying to keep up in econ until the big guns are out. | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
Artosis and Idra gets trashed by default because of having opinions AND being public figures in the community, but if you actually watch the video they lay out very well thought out arguments and scenarios that would backup their claims. And yet you see respones like, "LOL ARTOSIS AND IDRA SO BIASED WTF IS THIS" "Worst idea of a show ever, pros should never discuss balance" "I'm in the masters league and I like the show, but you are very wrong and here's why (insert random argument backed by mathematics or experience of low level play". I mean really? | ||
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