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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content. You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical. Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. | ||
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Seronei
Sweden991 Posts
On February 05 2011 03:36 Huragius wrote: And what will happen with 4 gate ? Or Immortals/Stargate units vs Terran mech ? It seems that there is no solution to this problem... He said that they should buff them midgame, not early game. How that will be solved is another question. | ||
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Qzy
Denmark1121 Posts
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
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FreedonNadd
Austria573 Posts
On February 05 2011 02:26 MorroW wrote: nerf colosus/high templar/force field buff everything else in midgame (what i mean by that is that you cant straight up buff zealot cause then early game is imbalanced, u have to think out some fancy upgrade for zealots past charge to make it not-useless past early game) i dont talk about extreme nerfs or buffs here. small ones are enough to give more options i just want it to be possible for a protoss to fight a zerg without abusing colosus or FF like a mad man. but whenever they dont have these 2 key things zealots/stalkers etc are complete trash compared to my hydra roach combo in zvt u have tons of choices how you want to battle and make ur unit compositions, most things work great. but as soon as protoss enters mid/late game u have to sit there and only focus on colosus and FF cause thats way better than everything else colossus is pretty much the most bullshit unit for the cost inthe game right now. it deals tons of damage, sick range, really fast and mobile, long sight range and sees up cliffs. tank: doesnt have long sight and its not mobile at all ultralisk: melee, not as mobile thor: not as much range, lot less mobile, no splash to ground all of them cost similar food cost (except tank) but yet the colosus is still alot better than the rest but then go and compare zealot/stalker to marauder/rine or hydra/roach. then toss has no chanse at all. toss has no chance to fight low tier vs low tier, and ithink thats a problem (i dont talk about earlygame) 100% Agree ! | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
i opt for templar (bw habbit) | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On February 05 2011 03:54 Jaeger wrote: The "really fast" colossus have the same move speed as the oft complained about hydras off creep. Just a little more mobility with their cliffwalk/walkover units abilities. Isn't that a little strange that the zerg power army has less mobility than the protoss power army because of cliffwalk/blink? I mean the zerg power ground army can barely dent the protoss deathball. You clearly need air support of some kind. If that's the case, shouldn't the protoss army be less mobile??? Honestly, the colossus, for its power, is actually pretty damn fast. Imagine if brood lords were that fast! As I said before, I don't think the problem with colossus is necessarily its power, it's the fact that on the current maps mobility doesn't mean very much. Also, the colossus is pretty mobile for its power. A speed nerf would make it easier to abuse it with drops and nydus worming. | ||
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nutnut
Norway29 Posts
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VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
On February 05 2011 03:54 Jaeger wrote: The "really fast" colossus have the same move speed as the oft complained about hydras off creep. Just a little more mobility with their cliffwalk/walkover units abilities. Collosus definately have more mobility they hydras off creep. However they are limited in that they require gateway support, more specifcally forcefields are key. So the entire deathball is limited by the speed of the sentry, yeah sure collosus will get from A to B faster then hydras if theres cliffs in the way, but without forcefields and the rest of the gateway units they arent as impressive. Its the same reason why hydra's get lots of complaints about their speed off creep, it limits the entire armies mobility. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
A support bay 200 gas, range upgrade 200 gas, colossus 200 gas. 1st colossus with range out = 600 gas after you have a robo. Sentries are 100 gas a piece. Consider this in you cost analysis. They take forever to build even with crono, and to make more than one at a time, you need another robo. Not cheap at all. The reason toss are using them extensively in every matchup is because of need. Stalker/Zealot don't measure up to MM or roach hydra for cost or dps. Without FF and colossus being as good as they are protoss would be completely broken. A big problem IMO is the cost of getting upgrades for gateway units. Twilight + leg speed costs 350 minerals and 300 gas. Terran can get a tech lab, stim, concussive, and combat shield for 300 minerals 275 gas total. The stalkers low rate of fire and getting only +1 per upgrade, means they benefit less than roaches,hydras, and mm from upgrades.(A marine without being stimmed nearly shoots twice to every 1 shot from a stalker). Also we must consider mobility. A protoss army mid game is the least mobile army of all three races. You all talk about colossus being fast, but they really are not. Stimmed MM and roach hydra on creep are insanely fast compared to the protoss "Death Ball" Terrans have those wonderful med evacs which make stim almost free and they can do devastating drops at any time. The heal rate of med evacs is very high imo. The protoss cannot split his army to much because he must protect the colossus. It is much harder for toss to deal with harassment and takes longer for toss to travel from their 3rd to their main to crush a drop or mutas than the other races. I play toss and I'm sick of colossus too, but without them I'd be completely screwed. Colossus and storm are my only (viable) splash damage units (don't even get me started on archons) they take MUCH more time and resources to get into play than banlings or siege tanks. Protoss NEEDS colossus because the rest of their army lacks splash damage and dps for cost that the other races seem to be taking for granted in this thread. Without in colossus pvt, EMP would devastate protoss as well. I'd like to bring one other point up to the zergs and terrans out there. I cannot tell you how many games I've played where I crush an attacking MM force or zerg force 2 or 3 times in a game and still loose the game. Yet The first time a toss looses his army in any matchup IT'S OVER. With the exception of very late game when a toss may have a ton of warpgates in play. | ||
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IAmSpooner
Sweden111 Posts
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VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
On February 05 2011 04:32 IAmSpooner wrote: I don't understand why warp gate tech has to be available so early. Seriously, it's the reason why zealots and stalkers are so weak and colossi and sentries are so strong to begin with. It would have made more sense to make warp gates a late game upgrade instead. You can't just buff zealots and stalkers and nerf colossi because buffing zealots and stalkers while leaving warp gate unchanged would make protoss ridiculously strong in the early game. This would be a step in the right direction, but it will never happen. I dont think blizzard is going to want to change the mechanics that drastically. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On February 05 2011 03:36 Huragius wrote: And what will happen with 4 gate ? Or Immortals/Stargate units vs Terran mech ? It seems that there is no solution to this problem... did you read my post? i said add midgame upgrades for the stuff so early game isnt touched stargate units are already plenty good vs zerg, that isnt the issue and immortals are already good enough, they are great vs roach and destroy ultralisk which is purpose enough  buffing corruptor is a way to fix the colosuss maybe but the problem will remain that toss cant fight with non-masscolosus/sentry vs zerg or terran. and pvp will still be a colosuss fest the buffs i talk about could be to add some zealot upgrade for twilight concil once uget templar archives (for example, just an idea) so its only for later game. the stalker buff can be as simple as giving it +2 vs armored on each upgrade archon could need a buff in general, wouldnt hurt too much but ofcourse if these changes comes along the zealot HT combo will get even stronger vs bio army than it already is. but thats another problem, that terran mech is terrible vs protoss. so ways to follow this up would be to help mech vs protoss its pretty hard to just throw out solutions on top of my head and get it to make full sense and it all fits into pieces but at the same time i think almost everyone agrees protoss revolves too much around colosuss storm and FF | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On February 05 2011 04:37 MorroW wrote: did you read my post? i said add midgame upgrades for the stuff so early game isnt touched stargate units are already plenty good vs zerg, that isnt the issue and immortals are already good enough, they are great vs roach and destroy ultralisk which is purpose enough buffing corruptor is a way to fix the colosuss maybe but the problem will remain that toss cant fight with non-masscolosus/sentry vs zerg or terran. and pvp will still be a colosuss fest the buffs i talk about could be to add some zealot upgrade for twilight concil once uget templar archives (for example, just an idea) so its only for later game. the stalker buff can be as simple as giving it +2 vs armored on each upgrade archon could need a buff in general, wouldnt hurt too much but ofcourse if these changes comes along the zealot HT combo will get even stronger vs bio army than it already is. but thats another problem, that terran mech is terrible vs protoss. so ways to follow this up would be to help mech vs protoss its pretty hard to just throw out solutions on top of my head and get it to make full sense and it all fits into pieces but at the same time i think almost everyone agrees protoss revolves too much around colosuss storm and FF I read your post, and I think its very very reasonable. Nerf Colossus, and Buff Zealot/Stalker to give it a chance to fight against mm and roach/hydra. | ||
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ExoD
United States37 Posts
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noD
2230 Posts
can it be a little more visual attractive ? with replays showing the points and stuff ? or released in plain mp3 format ? it gets kind tiring looking at artosis and IdrA face :/ | ||
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theBlues
El Salvador638 Posts
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Wesso
Netherlands1245 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On February 05 2011 04:37 MorroW wrote: did you read my post? i said add midgame upgrades for the stuff so early game isnt touched stargate units are already plenty good vs zerg, that isnt the issue and immortals are already good enough, they are great vs roach and destroy ultralisk which is purpose enough buffing corruptor is a way to fix the colosuss maybe but the problem will remain that toss cant fight with non-masscolosus/sentry vs zerg or terran. and pvp will still be a colosuss fest the buffs i talk about could be to add some zealot upgrade for twilight concil once uget templar archives (for example, just an idea) so its only for later game. the stalker buff can be as simple as giving it +2 vs armored on each upgrade archon could need a buff in general, wouldnt hurt too much but ofcourse if these changes comes along the zealot HT combo will get even stronger vs bio army than it already is. but thats another problem, that terran mech is terrible vs protoss. so ways to follow this up would be to help mech vs protoss its pretty hard to just throw out solutions on top of my head and get it to make full sense and it all fits into pieces but at the same time i think almost everyone agrees protoss revolves too much around colosuss storm and FF Nice thinking. However, mech would need a major buff to make it good, like you said. That could make problems TvZ lol . It is very, very hard to balance a game as complex as SC2...People should give Blizzard a break some time. | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On February 05 2011 04:31 Reborn8u wrote: A support bay 200 gas, range upgrade 200 gas, colossus 200 gas. 1st colossus with range out = 600 gas after you have a robo. Sentries are 100 gas a piece. Consider this in you cost analysis. They take forever to build even with crono, and to make more than one at a time, you need another robo. Not cheap at all. The reason toss are using them extensively in every matchup is because of need. Stalker/Zealot don't measure up to MM or roach hydra for cost or dps. Without FF and colossus being as good as they are protoss would be completely broken. A big problem IMO is the cost of getting upgrades for gateway units. Twilight + leg speed costs 350 minerals and 300 gas. Terran can get a tech lab, stim, concussive, and combat shield for 300 minerals 275 gas total. The stalkers low rate of fire and getting only +1 per upgrade, means they benefit less than roaches,hydras, and mm from upgrades.(A marine without being stimmed nearly shoots twice to every 1 shot from a stalker). Also we must consider mobility. A protoss army mid game is the least mobile army of all three races. You all talk about colossus being fast, but they really are not. Stimmed MM and roach hydra on creep are insanely fast compared to the protoss "Death Ball" Terrans have those wonderful med evacs which make stim almost free and they can do devastating drops at any time. The heal rate of med evacs is very high imo. The protoss cannot split his army to much because he must protect the colossus. It is much harder for toss to deal with harassment and takes longer for toss to travel from their 3rd to their main to crush a drop or mutas than the other races. I play toss and I'm sick of colossus too, but without them I'd be completely screwed. Colossus and storm are my only (viable) splash damage units (don't even get me started on archons) they take MUCH more time and resources to get into play than banlings or siege tanks. Protoss NEEDS colossus because the rest of their army lacks splash damage and dps for cost that the other races seem to be taking for granted in this thread. Without in colossus pvt, EMP would devastate protoss as well. I'd like to bring one other point up to the zergs and terrans out there. I cannot tell you how many games I've played where I crush an attacking MM force or zerg force 2 or 3 times in a game and still loose the game. Yet The first time a toss looses his army in any matchup IT'S OVER. With the exception of very late game when a toss may have a ton of warpgates in play. 3k Master Protoss here and i wholeheartly agree with you. Protoss heavily relies on his deathball to be somewhat competitiv. For instance against zerg, if they choose to mass mid game roaches, you will never be able to engange until you got your 4 colossi 150 supply+ army. You bascially camp the whole fucking time and try to get to 3 bases to form an even stronger deathball. Against said roach massing army, depending on maps, you'll have to land good force fields in the early game to survive. If his +20 roaches are close to your army, everything is just melting and dies. Zealot / Stalker are just the worst basic units in the game, they're not even bulky as protoss units should be compared to 145hp roach and 125hp marauder that are cheapter and do more dps. Add to the fact that you NEED to go robo to be save mid game (banshee and borrow roaches (becoming more and more popular)) it's most of the time a camping game until you got your highly unmobile ball. There are timing windows against both races, T / Z, where you can do heavy damage with sentries and your gateway army. But everything centers around your force field usage. If you fail, you're army horribly meltes to anything and it's game over, because your core units are gone that are needed to support your colossi. So you have to make a choice between massing core units to be "somewhat" safe while they are taking the map and massing anti-colossi units. I think EVERY higher rated protoss player would highly appreciate stronger core units for weaker colossi. Imo it's not even fun to play colossi ball and force fielding, it's just dumb and boring, but you end up beeing force to that. You may have to tweak warpgate, but that would maybe cut the 4 gate in pvp out, and most possibly also colossi war. Also one of the most stupid all-ins, the 4 gate, will vanish. @ TvP Mech issue: The problem isn't that tanks aren't good enough, it's the lack of spider mines clearing most of the zealot cloud. Zealot are the most efficient tank counter in TvP, sometimes it's really not even funny how easy zealot ripe tanks apart if they manage to hit them. And there lies one problem, terran has not really a way to defend the tanks from the zealots. | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
On February 05 2011 05:10 noD wrote: About the show itself can it be a little more visual attractive ? with replays showing the points and stuff ? or released in plain mp3 format ? it gets kind tiring looking at artosis and IdrA face :/ Uh... so how would releasing it as mp3 make any difference? You could just, y'know, not look. | ||
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