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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. |
On February 04 2011 18:21 Sub40APM wrote:
Plus Idra is a pretty controversial player -- no matter what you or he says to some members of the starcraft community will automatically express an emotional response to him that fundamentally affects whatever he says.
I think it would help Artosis/Idra to try to splice commentary from guys like Nestea or Fruitdealer, as they dont have whole, specially made, youtube videos called 'Nestea rage' or 'fruitdealer rage.' I realize that will obviously harder due but it will also come off as a much more polished pov.
Just because hes controversial doesnt mean his opinions are invalid. If you want to say his opinion is not right, then attack the opinion and not the player background.
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PvZ had a winrate of 45% in GSL 4, granted it is a much to small number to draw any solid conclusions about but i still feel it is an good indicator that things arent completely bonkers. And PvZ statistics for all GSL's are also 45% with a larger sample size.
In the end i feel this show is pretty much the definition of a circle-jerk, two guys with the same opinion finding arguments to back that opinion up without anyone to argue against it or provide a different view.
Lol thats funny, I never would have guessed the stats were like that from the way Artosis/Idra talk about PvZ. I remember during the GSL Artosis going on and on about how P dominates Z and how its such an uphill battle for Z.
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The argument about colossi seems like it would prove that protoss should be easy to beat. If colossus are so essential vs. ground then they should be able to be hard countered easily. I agree they really bolster the strength of an army but I feel like tanks are pretty similar.
Colossi being the target of this show seems little ridiculous considering that these guys were talking about how incredibly imbalance protoss air builds were going to become after 1.2. They may not have said the colossus is broken but come on now. Protoss ground to air is god awful so corrupters can basically just hover in a large flock above the protoss army and kill colossus with no support.
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To be honest i feel the reason Protoss haven't been that succesful in GSL(apart from MC) is simply related to the players not being that good. For example i remember back in beta when Tester was hyped like no other, but i seriously haven't seen him do anything that impressive yet, granted I'll admit i haven't seen all his matches.
As for IdrA and Artosis claims, i agree with everything they said, the Colossus is such a central unit for Protoss in almost every matchup, and so much revolves around it really.
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I have a question, and maybe someone here can answer it (though I'd love Idra or Artosis to comment).
What happened the the Marine SCV all-in? It was the unstoppable build that every Terran did to every Zerg in GSL 3, and then it just kind of lost popularity and became relatively rare. What happened? I see Zerg are more inclined to blind spine crawler at their ramp. Does that beat the all-in?
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I loved this video. I love things like this. I was always wondering, and discussing with a few of my friend's the PvZ match up lately. The Colossus are hard enough to deal with without being obliterated straight up, so I will ask this question.
Do you think Force Fields should receive a tiny nerf? If so, do you think that a 1-3 second cool down would be efficient to make it more balanced against all races?
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Nice series guys 
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as much as i love artosis for doing what he is doing (and thats a looooot),
this show cannot be serious..him and idra talking about balance is just so wrong even
if they may be right (which they actually may be,given idra's knowledge of the game).
+
this will create even more useless balance threads ("because artosis and idra said
protoss is imbalanced and zerg cant win  ")
besides that i laughed a lot watching the first episode :D
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I liked the show. It was constructive and nicely introduced. You suggested fairly that the map dependances have a great impact on the effectiveness of a unit. Well, in the current map pool, it is right the colossus has a major place in the P arsenal.
But further than just map pool considerations, I think the game is just too new to allow high apm builds (ex phoenix builds) to come up strongly. The gimmicky (ex 4gates) and steady systematic play (ex colossi) are still winning a lot. I'm no pro gamer, but I can't still see flaws in many games in the GSL. So as long as not everyone is impeccable on macro and obvious mistakes the colossi builds will be preponderant (cause low apm -> few extra tenth of seconds per cycle to take care of macromistakes which cost the game later on)
So as Idra mentionnel it before, I guess P will become much stronger with Phoenix builds coming out. As a Z-player I'm not so scared at my level (#1diamond), because apm is still a very strong limitation there. At top level, I guess it will be messy for a while, but I trust Z players will eventually figure it out.
So I feel the phoenix buff was great to decrease the relative strength of colossi builds. However P will be waaaay better than Z for a while. I'm not that concerned because Z is still far away from being figured out too.
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Here's my question for another IMBALANCED! show : In a world where the map pool gets a little bigger in order to keep few Z in the Ro8 in the GSL, how "imbalanced" mid-to-late game nydus worms (2+ of them) would become against the slow armies (colossi deathballs / tankpushes) ?
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The source is as important as the content. This is a forum where people went as far as suggesting special 'areas' where only known, quality players could post their opinions since generally, that would lead to a much 'educated' discussion. So basically, if a random posts A people won't care, if a known player posts A, people will respect it. And it should be this way.
Separating the content from the background of the source lacks depth and can create no actual statement about the product as a whole. And the source of the video is nothing but biased heavily towards races, players and anything SCII - related.
In any case, interesting idea. Would love to see other names doing it. As it is, I don't see how anyone can take this seriously.
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On February 04 2011 19:35 Caryc wrote:as much as i love artosis for doing what he is doing (and thats a looooot), this show cannot be serious..him and idra talking about balance is just so wrong even if they may be right (which they actually may be,given idra's knowledge of the game). + this will create even more useless balance threads ("because artosis and idra said protoss is imbalanced and zerg cant win ") besides that i laughed a lot watching the first episode :D
They never said Zerg can't win, stop putting words in their mouths. They even said with proper maps and metagame evolutions the Colossus might actually be a balanced unit.
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So gonna get a warning for this but have to say it .
Everyone has the right to state his opinion but if you don't play frequently on offline major tournaments, you don't have a say in the matter. And thats for 95% of the posters in this thread.
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On February 04 2011 19:41 Artanias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 19:35 Caryc wrote:as much as i love artosis for doing what he is doing (and thats a looooot), this show cannot be serious..him and idra talking about balance is just so wrong even if they may be right (which they actually may be,given idra's knowledge of the game). + this will create even more useless balance threads ("because artosis and idra said protoss is imbalanced and zerg cant win ") besides that i laughed a lot watching the first episode :D They never said Zerg can't win, stop putting words in their mouths. They even said with proper maps and metagame evolutions the Colossus might actually be a balanced unit.
no they didn't. Idra said, that you can't make the maps big enough for the colossus.
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On February 04 2011 18:31 DND_Enkil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 17:56 Zips wrote:On February 04 2011 17:23 Rabiator wrote:
My judgement on the show:
B for the concept
F- for effort
It is a good thing to try to look at the "fairness" of the game, but the way they do it is simply biased and done in a "whiney tabloid style" without any concept whatsoever. Most of it is just random talk with a lot of phrases like "may be too strong" in it. That does not help proving anything. Their most legitimate complaint, which I agree with, is the preeminent role of the colossus. That may or may not be due to balance issues; but in this case, balance issues don't matter. The grievance is that colossus' play too central a role in nearly every protoss army composition. It shouldn't be THE staple unit (other than stalker) that protoss cranks out in order to win. Even if it's not imbalanced, maybe protoss should still be re-tuned, in order to add viable options to army composition. As they said many times, it may simply be a matter of figuring out how to counter it efficiently -- meaning its efficacy may be embellished, at the moment. If that's the case, then eventually we'll see an organic switch to more diverse army compositions. However, if it is imbalanced, we'll continue to see more and more colossus play (which would be a real shame, because protoss is more than just stalker/colossus). And i disagree with the preeminent role of the collossus means it is "imbalanced". They are focusing on a P unit from a Z perspective an how hard it is for Z to deal with it. I feel that muta is pretty dominant in ZvT and ZvZ, does this mean Mutalisk is imbalanced? And we have already started seeing an organic switch out of collosus focused play with players mixing in Voids, Archons and Motherships in PvZ and PvP. Collosus is still the most common mid-game unit but i do not feel it dominates the matchup as much as they make it sound like. And P does not dominate Z either... PvZ had a winrate of 45% in GSL 4, granted it is a much to small number to draw any solid conclusions about but i still feel it is an good indicator that things arent completely bonkers. And PvZ statistics for all GSL's are also 45% with a larger sample size. In the end i feel this show is pretty much the definition of a circle-jerk, two guys with the same opinion finding arguments to back that opinion up without anyone to argue against it or provide a different view.
Or they are talking from their experiences from the Korean ladder while you do not have that experience and you flame them here
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On February 04 2011 19:57 Shinobi1982 wrote:So gonna get a warning for this but have to say it . Everyone has the right to state his opinion but if you don't play frequently on offline major tournaments, you don't have a say in the matter. And thats for 95% of the posters in this thread.
What a silly statement to have to get a warning for. Just because we're not in the booth doesn't mean we don't have eyes with which to see the games, or brains from which to draw conclusions.
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On February 04 2011 19:41 n0ise wrote:
The source is as important as the content. This is a forum where people went as far as suggesting special 'areas' where only known, quality players could post their opinions since generally, that would lead to a much 'educated' discussion. So basically, if a random posts A people won't care, if a known player posts A, people will respect it. And it should be this way.
Separating the content from the background of the source lacks depth and can create no actual statement about the product as a whole. And the source of the video is nothing but biased heavily towards races, players and anything SCII - related.
In any case, interesting idea. Would love to see other names doing it. As it is, I don't see how anyone can take this seriously.
Why not? I find it interesting that you call Artosis and Idra biased, and not truthsayers for example, calling them biased would imply that you know better than these 2 players.
You've clearly judged their past words as "bullshit QQ'ing" which in turn leads you to assume this is also bullshit QQ'ing.
Making assumptions is never a good thing, and who the hell do you think you are calling them biased?
On topic: I thought this first episode was interesting, and I will definitely watch any upcoming shows.
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I like the show. Though I would say it was a bad idea to start off by getting two Zerg players and then say how Zerg is underpowered/disadvantaged though you might be right.
On the other hand, 2 (or 1.5) Zerg players probably understand ZvX matchups the best.
It would have been quite strange if they focussed on PvT.
I also felt like Colossi might be a touch too strong (though I mainly played as Protoss against my Terran friend).
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On February 04 2011 19:59 supersoft wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 19:41 Artanias wrote:On February 04 2011 19:35 Caryc wrote:as much as i love artosis for doing what he is doing (and thats a looooot), this show cannot be serious..him and idra talking about balance is just so wrong even if they may be right (which they actually may be,given idra's knowledge of the game). + this will create even more useless balance threads ("because artosis and idra said protoss is imbalanced and zerg cant win ") besides that i laughed a lot watching the first episode :D They never said Zerg can't win, stop putting words in their mouths. They even said with proper maps and metagame evolutions the Colossus might actually be a balanced unit. no they didn't. Idra said, that you can't make the maps big enough for the colossus.
He also said that maybe the solution is finding the exact right ratio of corruptors to ground army -- which takes trial and error to pin down.
This video in no way states that colossi are unbeatable, overpowered units -- but it did say that it can be exceptionally hard to beat in certain circumstances. Whether pvz is somehow fundamentally flawed is still unknown.
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On February 04 2011 20:09 Zips wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 19:59 supersoft wrote:On February 04 2011 19:41 Artanias wrote:On February 04 2011 19:35 Caryc wrote:as much as i love artosis for doing what he is doing (and thats a looooot), this show cannot be serious..him and idra talking about balance is just so wrong even if they may be right (which they actually may be,given idra's knowledge of the game). + this will create even more useless balance threads ("because artosis and idra said protoss is imbalanced and zerg cant win ") besides that i laughed a lot watching the first episode :D They never said Zerg can't win, stop putting words in their mouths. They even said with proper maps and metagame evolutions the Colossus might actually be a balanced unit. no they didn't. Idra said, that you can't make the maps big enough for the colossus. He also said that maybe the solution is finding the exact right ratio of corruptors to ground army -- which takes trial and error to pin down. This video in no may states that colossi are unbeatable, overpowered units -- but it did say that it can be exceptionally hard to beat in certain circumstances. Whether pvz is somehow fundamentally flawed is still unknown.
Well in that case, why not make the same video about Ultralisks?? Ultralisks are hard to beat when you get 5-6 of them.. and they do insane amounts of damage. Face it, Collosus are tier 3 units, the end game units for protoss (except carrier/mothership).. but the important thing to remember is they are nessesary for protoss matchups. Zerg can play 100 games without going broodlords or ultras, and still be competitive.. but for protoss if you DONT get collosus, you are 99% screwed. Storm is so weak in SC2, its not worth going storm over collosus unless they have mass corrupters/vikings already.
So if you think collosus are overpowered, try removing them or nerfing them and see how protoss will plummet even further into obscurity (not one protoss in Ro8 this GSL) ...
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On February 04 2011 19:57 Shinobi1982 wrote:So gonna get a warning for this but have to say it . Everyone has the right to state his opinion but if you don't play frequently on offline major tournaments, you don't have a say in the matter. And thats for 95% of the posters in this thread.
you can't say in general that only ppl who play offline major tournaments have a say.
There are definetly people out there, that don't play offline major tournaments and are very good aswell.
I think wheter you have a say or not depends on your knwledge of the game. If someone only plays for his own, and ladders around in copper to diamond, yes I agree these people don't have a say.
But I think if someone watches the GSL, reads the interviews, plays in masterleague, and the most important: trys to get his own picture of what's going on, I think these guys have a say.
It's actually very difficult to identify these guys in the mass of angry nerds that lose games and blame imbalances of the game for losing and not the fact that they had a supplyblock half of the game.
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EPT
