On February 04 2011 00:33 Pewt wrote: Would it be possible to fix the map fog to SC2 style, make the pathing not awful, and not screw with shift orders? Masochistic people are welcome to play with the SC:BW engine (same way they can turn off automining, MBS, etc) but for trying to play this as SC:BW on a better engine it's annoying to have all these engine limitations manually added. I can't count the number of times I went back to find half my SCVs hugging an academy or to find my entire army stuck behind 1 Marine, and while I realize that happened in BW if I wanted to play BW with all the engine issues I would play BW.
Um, learn to micro? You have no idea how hard Terran in BW is. Like, it took me at least 9 months of straight Terran play to get it to D level. What I'm saying is, this mod is trying to become BW as much as it is possible within the SC2 engine. But the engine improvements are vast. Your issues are nothing compared to the issues present in playing T in BW.
The Fog was like that in all their older games until SC2 so that people would need knowledge of the map prior to playing it.
On February 04 2011 00:33 Pewt wrote: Would it be possible to fix the map fog to SC2 style, make the pathing not awful, and not screw with shift orders? Masochistic people are welcome to play with the SC:BW engine (same way they can turn off automining, MBS, etc) but for trying to play this as SC:BW on a better engine it's annoying to have all these engine limitations manually added. I can't count the number of times I went back to find half my SCVs hugging an academy or to find my entire army stuck behind 1 Marine, and while I realize that happened in BW if I wanted to play BW with all the engine issues I would play BW.
Um, learn to micro? You have no idea how hard Terran in BW is. Like, it took me at least 9 months of straight Terran play to get it to D level. What I'm saying is, this mod is trying to become BW as much as it is possible within the SC2 engine. But the engine improvements are vast. Your issues are nothing compared to the issues present in playing T in BW.
The Fog was like that in all their older games until SC2 so that people would need knowledge of the map prior to playing it.
He just needs more APM
More APM for sure. Like, I have trouble with BW T and I have 200-ish APM.
Great job! And the music man, how I miss that music. I don't mind the hotkeys at all, after playing SC1 for so long it just take a sec to get the momentun going again.
On February 04 2011 01:31 fenixdown wrote: Great job! And the music man, how I miss that music. I don't mind the hotkeys at all, after playing SC1 for so long it just take a sec to get the momentun going again.
You can set the hotkeys to left side of keyboard a la SC2. Goto the hotkeys menu and choose the bottom option! I NEVER play with BW hotkeys. M for marine sucks when you have to hit it 20 times a minute.
On February 04 2011 00:33 Pewt wrote: Would it be possible to fix the map fog to SC2 style, make the pathing not awful, and not screw with shift orders? Masochistic people are welcome to play with the SC:BW engine (same way they can turn off automining, MBS, etc) but for trying to play this as SC:BW on a better engine it's annoying to have all these engine limitations manually added. I can't count the number of times I went back to find half my SCVs hugging an academy or to find my entire army stuck behind 1 Marine, and while I realize that happened in BW if I wanted to play BW with all the engine issues I would play BW.
Um, learn to micro? You have no idea how hard Terran in BW is. Like, it took me at least 9 months of straight Terran play to get it to D level. What I'm saying is, this mod is trying to become BW as much as it is possible within the SC2 engine. But the engine improvements are vast. Your issues are nothing compared to the issues present in playing T in BW.
I've played T in BW and didn't actually find it all that terrible, although I wasn't any good really (D-D+). I'm just saying I don't see the point of purposefully making the engine worse since if you want to play SC:BW on a bad engine you have, well, SC:BW.
I also know how to micro, it's just that when I'm playing games on the SC2 engine I am generally used to telling my units to go somewhere and not having them get stuck halfway down a ramp for no apparent reason. Hell, I've had more trouble with this than the SC:BW AI since at least the SC:BW AI is predictably bad (and thus you stay to micro your units down ramps) whereas this is seemingly random.
It's not like such a mode would affect anyone who wants to play with poor unit AI--there are already modes for automining, MBS, and the like that work just fine.
My friend and I also found these "hardcoded" limitations (as in not the ones that were options) affected Terran much more than Zerg, notably when dealing with Mutalisk harass, although the game became much more fair when we turned off *all* the SC2 improvements (although by that point I was asking myself why I didn't just boot up iCCup and play there).
--
As for map fog, I'm well aware of why it exists and I don't see the point of it.
On February 04 2011 06:10 MavercK wrote: they are options. they are not forced on you. if you dont want to play with them you dont have to.
The bad pathing and seemingly broken shift commands are not options, that's what my post was about. I was asking about making those options for those of us who want to play SC:BW fully on the SC2 engine but it got lost in all the "mad cuz bad" replies.
On February 04 2011 06:10 MavercK wrote: they are options. they are not forced on you. if you dont want to play with them you dont have to.
The bad pathing and seemingly broken shift commands are not options, that's what my post was about. I was asking about making those options for those of us who want to play SC:BW fully on the SC2 engine but it got lost in all the "mad cuz bad" replies.
bad pathing was a side effect of units in sc1 being only allowed to move in 8 directions. currently i cannot recreate this limitation. broken shift commands. do you mean not being able to queue up buildings and stuff like that? i can probably implement that.
Bad pathing: In SC2 units generally move out of the way for each other, siphon nicely down ramps, etc, as I'm sure you know.
In SC2BW units don't move out of the way for each other (one poorly placed Marine will block your Tank/Vult/Goliath army), armies have a habit of getting stuck on ramps for no apparent reason, and units will sometimes get stuck on each other even when they are both moving the same direction. I assumed this was intentional. Units will sometimes even get stuck on one another (such as on said poorly placed Marine) if they *could* go around the unit but the theoretical fastest route is through it.
As for the broken shift orders, much of the time that I tried to do something along the lines of "box 6 SCVs, order two to make depots, shift everyone back to a mineral patch" they would all end up hugging one of the depots. It's possible that I just made a bunch of mistakes but I basically never make them in SC2 ladder and it happened to me multiple times a game in SC2BW until I just stopped using shift to build stuff entirely. Once again, not sure if this was intentional.
This is based on playing 10-15ish games with two of my friends earlier today.
Also, the MBS and unit selection cap tweaks seem rather imbalanced in that I have enough time to, say, stim all my Marines before it auto-deselects most of them and, say, order all my hatcheries to build stuff (assuming I have some rapid method of selecting them, such as double clicking a bunch on the same screen) before it auto-deselects all but one of them. Perhaps you should catch orders which are issued simultaneously to more than the maximum number of units and cancel them for everyone but the first twelve? It could be tricky (especially with maintaining previous orders) but yeah.
On February 04 2011 06:49 Pewt wrote: Bad pathing: In SC2 units generally move out of the way for each other, siphon nicely down ramps, etc, as I'm sure you know.
In SC2BW units don't move out of the way for each other (one poorly placed Marine will block your Tank/Vult/Goliath army), armies have a habit of getting stuck on ramps for no apparent reason, and units will sometimes get stuck on each other even when they are both moving the same direction. I assumed this was intentional. Units will sometimes even get stuck on one another (such as on said poorly placed Marine) if they *could* go around the unit but the theoretical fastest route is through it.
As for the broken shift orders, much of the time that I tried to do something along the lines of "box 6 SCVs, order two to make depots, shift everyone back to a mineral patch" they would all end up hugging one of the depots. It's possible that I just made a bunch of mistakes but I basically never make them in SC2 ladder and it happened to me multiple times a game in SC2BW until I just stopped using shift to build stuff entirely. Once again, not sure if this was intentional.
This is based on playing 10-15ish games with two of my friends earlier today.
Also, the MBS and unit selection cap tweaks seem rather imbalanced in that I have enough time to, say, stim all my Marines before it auto-deselects most of them and, say, order all my hatcheries to build stuff (assuming I have some rapid method of selecting them, such as double clicking a bunch on the same screen) before it auto-deselects all but one of them. Perhaps you should catch orders which are issued simultaneously to more than the maximum number of units and cancel them for everyone but the first twelve? It could be tricky (especially with maintaining previous orders) but yeah.
yea the pathing can actually be made into an option.
in sc2 workers have "wait at mineral patch" where if an existing worker mining is almost done. another will just sit there and wait. this wasn't present in sc1 and i can't seem to just disable in the gather ability. my solution to this was a string of behaviors to check mining state and then re-ordering the worker to gather another random mineral patch. this works great. the only issue is if you grab say 6 workers and hold shift and build 2x depots. 50% chance you will queue the build order after a worker mines. in which case theres a chance your build order will be replaced by a new gather mineral by this trigger. i recommend not using shift. i may improve this trigger soon to take into account queued orders and re-add them. keeping the order intact.
MBS and MUS triggers i am myself not happy with. it's a dodgy bandaid fix on something i actually have no control over. i really want to improve/fix this but it's not going to be easy.
anyway. this kind of feedback really shouldn't go in this thread. the 99 page thread in custom map section which is linked to in the OP has this sole purpose i fear i will soon receive a temp ban for spamming TL.net with sc2bw heh .
The MBS and Unit Selection Limitations are buggy, but it's hard as hell to code them at all. Mav is certainly looking into other options and I've been brainstorming more options too.
On February 04 2011 07:15 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: The MBS and Unit Selection Limitations are buggy, but it's hard as hell to code them at all. Mav is certainly looking into other options and I've been brainstorming more options too.
I modded wc3 a ton (vJass etc etc) but haven't really gotten into SC2, so I'd be happy to throw you guys some solutions that I think might work but I can't guarantee do. However, I guess this is better placed in the custom map section--wasn't aware that this had a thread there.
On February 04 2011 07:15 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: The MBS and Unit Selection Limitations are buggy, but it's hard as hell to code them at all. Mav is certainly looking into other options and I've been brainstorming more options too.
I modded wc3 a ton (vJass etc etc) but haven't really gotten into SC2, so I'd be happy to throw you guys some solutions that I think might work but I can't guarantee do. However, I guess this is better placed in the custom map section--wasn't aware that this had a thread there.
EPT
.
