Welcome to BrTarolg's SC2:BW stream. This is a custom map mod which is a 100% bw mod for SC2! Don't believe me? Watch the videos, watch the stream and join us to find out whats going on!
I plan to stream almost every night in the week when games are going on during the evening so stay tuned Also will get the channel verified soon
Want to play with us? Join channel sc2bw
I will be hosting a tournament in a few weeks with a 50 dollar prize pool! Old BW pros, now is your time to shine!
FAQ: Yes, there is an option to turn off automine, MBS, 12 unit selection etc. Yes, mining is just like BW Tanks DO overkill You can do stop lurkers Yes, reaver AI works the same as in BW Yes, you really can do mutalisk micro and patrol micro Yes, we have BW miss chance when shooting up cliffs implemented
The Creator of this map is Maverck, models are also made ny Gna Thank you to them for the creation of this map!
Press articles:
On January 29 2011 13:54 MavercK wrote: =D
seems this stream as done a good job where i failed (promoting )
Good thing you made the mutalisk attack animation more obvious even at low quality video, but could the mutalisks themselves look a bit brighter in color? They look kind of dark.
The unit sounds and the background just feels so much better than the new unit sounds.
Does the damage on the firebats hit instantly or does it slowly do all the damage?
On January 28 2011 10:45 zerglingsfolife wrote: Wow, you got muta micro to work. I thought I heard the reason it wasn't put in the game because Blizzard didn't know how to reproduce the bug?
That's highly doubtful. It's not like there's anything in it that (afaik) that would be really difficult to do, and Blizzard is a huge company.
On January 28 2011 10:45 zerglingsfolife wrote: Wow, you got muta micro to work. I thought I heard the reason it wasn't put in the game because Blizzard didn't know how to reproduce the bug?
not that hard to do. the hardest part was working around blizzard pathing and spreading stuff.
On January 28 2011 10:45 zerglingsfolife wrote: Wow, you got muta micro to work. I thought I heard the reason it wasn't put in the game because Blizzard didn't know how to reproduce the bug?
That's highly doubtful. It's not like there's anything in it that (afaik) that would be really difficult to do, and Blizzard is a huge company.
yeah they actually said that, too lazy to find the quote tho. But Blizzard being a big company hasn't proven that they will be good at anything. Same maps after a year they tourny was poorly organized etc.
Hey guys finished streaming now, was a lot of fun tonight
Man hardcore mode is so frustrating, and never playing zerg again lol
Unfortunately all we had was a bunch of D noobiness so if any of you would like to grace us with your C ness or B ness that would be very appreciated!!
Will be streaming a bit earlier tomorrow i think look forward to seeing you guys again, ill bump the thread up when im streaming again
Ya I love this!!! Cool that you are streaming it :D And great work MavercK! The only turn off for me is that I play Zerg and there are still two separate rally points T_T But I would definitely be down for a tourney / games XD I probably barely remember how to play!!!
OH SHIT! You finally decided to stream?!?! I refuse to let this fall off first page ever now.
Hopefully everyone who likes sc2 or bw will enjoy this stream. It's truly an incredible mod and worthy of as much love and attention as anyone can give it!
On January 28 2011 13:38 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: OH SHIT! You finally decided to stream?!?! I refuse to let this fall off first page ever now.
Hopefully everyone who likes sc2 or bw will enjoy this stream. It's truly an incredible mod and worthy of as much love and attention as anyone can give it!
I just can say: I want that muta micro in my sc2!!! I've never played BW before, but im starting to understand how much depper it is than sc2, a lot of those things should be definetly implemented, i mean, who wouldnt like to be able to micro something as zerg??
Just checked out the auto mine feature and I actually really like it. Too bad its not in the normal sc2. I like the feel of having to go back and visit your base more. The macro mechanics are not a sufficient substitute (esp mules :D)
On January 28 2011 14:33 Cofo wrote: This is reaaaallly fun! I love having the unit select/automine restrictions, but still being able to enjoy SC2's (relatively) good pathing.
Quick question - is there any way to use custom hotkeys? My only other big complaint about original BW gameplay is that gosh-darned P key.
you can choose between original SC1 hotkeys and SC2-Style hotkey profiles in Hotkeys. i've recently made it possible for you to do your own hotkeys using blizzard's new custom hotkey thing. all the units/buildings should be in there.
keep in mind however. changing profiles will change hotkeys for ladder play. remember to change them back. with custom hotkeys i am not sure about it's effects on ladder. it's probably best to make a custom hotkey scheme in one of the unused slots so your ladder hotkeys remain unchanged.
Yeah, I guess. I think the game went much more smoothly after I restarted my computer. I mentioned briefly in the chat channel about lag during combat but its all good now. Good mod.
On January 28 2011 15:17 Cofo wrote: I'd love to see some really high level games with this mod. Unfortunately, anyone who's still good at BW these days is probably... well, playing BW.
Im going to totally play this now
you should be happy to know it's published on KR realm also next version should have all of the text in Korean for the KR realm.
Nice mod, this just proves that if blizzard stops giving a rats ass surely the community with the use of the editor can patch the game themselves? add in the extra units, change the values etc etc. All that would remain would be to devise a ranking system ala iccup where the modded maps are played to keep everyone playing the same patch version. If blizzard didn't have such an Iron grip on their game (ofc it's theirs I guess, they are allowed to.) I feel the community would be fine by itself.
This is really awesome. Well done! I love the attacking sounds of zerglings / drones / hydras and the terran background music.... aw man! Those things were so much better in BW!!
Edit: And yeah, you still have those weird scissor attacking sounds from the ultras... you should really change that as well
I didn't play BW outside of Singleplayer but oh my god, the Dragoon vs. Dragoon battle looked 50x cooler than any Stalker vs Stalker one. Great bloody job on this mod, looks really goddamn good.
It seems like blizzard would leave out the muta stacking on purpose, just cuz it would make mutas so much better but also make thor shots just retarded
Hehe I will be re-streaming sometime again tonight. Unfortunately i live in UK time so it can be a bit tougher for some of you west coast guys to be on at the same time as me unless you have free early afternoons
edit: omfg if you can get kotaku to do an article that would be SUHWEET
Definitely wanna advertise maverck's hard work to everyone, this is my favourite custom map and mod for SC2! On the korean server its one of the most played maps ^^
coming from somebody who has played bw for over a decade, let me inform you on what people who share my idea think: this is fucking brilliant.
please, find corporate sponsorship. push this. this can become so gigantic, words cant even explain. i am definitely telling all my kr veteran friends about this. holy fuck i cannot believe how good this is.
definitely spotlight this. this is something that can change sc2 forever, if done properly with corporate helping. beautiful work.
Don't know if anyone else has mentioned this but if you open the hotkeys menu after you've played a sc2bw game the game crashes, so you have to restart your game after you've played this since you have to change back your hotkeys to the sc2 ones.
On January 28 2011 21:51 Darneck wrote: Don't know if anyone else has mentioned this but if you open the hotkeys menu after you've played a sc2bw game the game crashes, so you have to restart your game after you've played this since you have to change back your hotkeys to the sc2 ones.
I don't have this issue on NA client. I routinely swap my hotkeys back and forth for SC2 and SC2:BW though. It might be a localized client issue, or a problem with the EU upload.
Anyways, I'll be around today to put out some decent level games on stream (C on iccup before SC2, gotten better since then). Played vs a few guys who claimed they were B-, beat a few, lost to Saracen =P
Pretty cool. I was going to join but they're playing team/FFA games right now. Maybe later. BY THE WAY, they figured out how to turn-off auto-mine (lol,) so as far as I can tell it's pretty much straight-up Brood War now (other than the 3D engine.)
I've played this mod and its a ton of fun. I wish more than anything i could get those zerg sounds back in sc2. Music, unit noises everything feels so much more 'evil' god damn I miss it. I'd be willing to risk TOS and mpq edit to get them back..
My utmost respect to this awesome piece of work! I am astonished at peoples capabilities when they are able to channel them into work they are emotionally connected to.
Really awesome mod, I'm really impressed that it got completed! I remember reading a lot about it in the custom maps forum but I stopped following it. I don't think I'll play on it, but I'll definitely try to watch some of the streams when I can.
I will try and get the stream verified one more time, hopefully over the next few days the more we stream the more of a playerbase we get and we can have lots of fun ^^
Thanks for supporting the map as usual, and thanks to maverck for its creation of this awesome mod
This is really amazing. There is one thing tho that would take this from amazing to perfect, and that is BIGGER PUDDLES OF BLUE GOO. otherwise i am incredibly impressed with the quality of this and there must have been a ton of time poured into it. One thing tho, is there a miss chance when shooting up a cliff? if that has been implemented i am even more impressed, but i couldn't tell while playing. Great work on this one.
Bw sounds are so much better than sc2. Stim pack sounds wagging cooler compared to the psst! sound in sc2. So gay, why couldn't they use the old sounds
This is too cool. The sounds, the unit variety/composition, the look, the music, EVERYTHING about this is just badass. I didn't even play brood war EVER and this is just a ton of fun, even makes me question why sc2 isn't more like bw, every race is just more fun to play. Just feels more like a complete RTS and not some rushfest. Race unit compositions are just so much more interesting and it just feels like they belong together. Oh, and one more thing LURKERS!!! Where are they Blizzard!?!?
Even if you never played brood war, I suggest you give this a try. I am having a lot of fun!
I'd love to try this new mod out, even though I have little experience with broodwar. The muta stacking does has its pros and cons in my opinion. like its good for burst dmg but shouldnt the range be a little far to get the old muta micro
seems it's a stickied thread. with close to 11k views. was posted yesterday. so very happy
lol yeah i can't tell you how many really good and well designed games have failed due to poor advertisement. Do you know how popular the broodwar map is and if they are actually using ur map or just a copy? It would suck if publishing came around in a few months or w.e and u didn't get credit lol.
One of the big differences to me, as some one who hasn't played Sc1 is many winters, is the harvesting. You simply need far less harvesters for the same resources, so more supply goes to the army.
Bigger armies are better IMO, then more harvesters.
Is this the SC2 you've been waiting for? I think yes. At least for me when I saw that first Marine trailer this is what I had in mind. This is beautiful, and with this kind of mod, you can include any of the new units and balance them accordingly.
I was really sad that after 10 years of successful balanced game play, blizzard took many steps back in an attempt to be creative. So now instead of waiting 10 more years for a balanced Sc2, we can play SC2BW.
On January 28 2011 10:45 zerglingsfolife wrote: Wow, you got muta micro to work. I thought I heard the reason it wasn't put in the game because Blizzard didn't know how to reproduce the bug?
It's so easy to do. One data change in editor and you get muta stacking without having to select overlord. I don't even make mods and I figured this out immediately.
On January 28 2011 10:45 zerglingsfolife wrote: Wow, you got muta micro to work. I thought I heard the reason it wasn't put in the game because Blizzard didn't know how to reproduce the bug?
It's so easy to do. One data change in editor and you get muta stacking without having to select overlord. I don't even make mods and I figured this out immediately.
yea.... but. that allows 100 mutas to stack without effort they also remain stacked when not moving.
it's not really THAT simple. like i said. Blizzard could easily code this in. the hard part for me was working AROUND blizzard's pathing.
Looks like for the pathing they just removed the swarm AI code - but the superior pathfinding is still there. (In BW pathing was done by A* on a hex-grid followed by walk to target.)
How about tinkering with game balance now that you have all the small print down? I know scouts were the BM unit to make but how about actually making them useful? Perhaps a small tweak here and there would improve the game, after all BW is CLOSE to perfection, not perfect.
On January 30 2011 19:50 emc wrote: guys guys, everything about BW is in this mod, please play the mod before commenting that it needs "X and Y to be good".
Still, marverk still has some work to do to make this perfect, which is why we need people to PLAY it THEN give feedback.
maybe its an option that you can disable or something, but the op doesnt mention it and I just saw on the stream 7 templars kill ~40 hydras because storm is enormous and does huge damage again, and you can just smartcast it all over their army.
On January 30 2011 19:50 emc wrote: guys guys, everything about BW is in this mod, please play the mod before commenting that it needs "X and Y to be good".
Still, marverk still has some work to do to make this perfect, which is why we need people to PLAY it THEN give feedback.
maybe its an option that you can disable or something, but the op doesnt mention it and I just saw on the stream 7 templars kill ~40 hydras because storm is enormous and does huge damage again, and you can just smartcast it all over their army.
Smartcasting can be turned off in the options ^^ They probably just left it at default or something for fun.
Wow, haven't played the map yet, but watched the stream and holy does it look awesome. Good job with the work! For a BW and SC2 fanatic alike, this is a great past time. :D
On January 28 2011 10:45 zerglingsfolife wrote: Wow, you got muta micro to work. I thought I heard the reason it wasn't put in the game because Blizzard didn't know how to reproduce the bug?
Originally it wasn't possible. Blizzard had to break the game's engine in order to make it possible. They left it out primarily because of how absurdly strong muta stacking would be with unlimited unit selection and how utterly useless it would be with Thors and the like.
On January 28 2011 10:45 zerglingsfolife wrote: Wow, you got muta micro to work. I thought I heard the reason it wasn't put in the game because Blizzard didn't know how to reproduce the bug?
Originally it wasn't possible. Blizzard had to break the game's engine in order to make it possible. They left it out primarily because of how absurdly strong muta stacking would be with unlimited unit selection and how utterly useless it would be with Thors and the like.
Leaving it out was probably a good idea. Would rape P (archon) and lose against T (thor) and Z (infestor) with it.
I am so happy. Now Protoss is fun again and takes real micro to play. Reavers owns! I have sat down waiting many hours to play this mod but no one ever came. But with this boost perhaps someone will join me for a game.
On January 30 2011 21:37 HowardRoark wrote: I am so happy. Now Protoss is fun again and takes real micro to play. Reavers owns! I have sat down waiting many hours to play this mod but no one ever came. But with this boost perhaps someone will join me for a game.
BTW: Is there any EU chat channel for this mod?
SC2BW channel. I got two games just now through that. I am d- or even worse in BW, but was fun anyhow.
Bug: You're supposed to be able to use the shield battery ability on the ground near units, and the units automatically run to the shield battery to get healed. This does not work.
On January 31 2011 03:11 Buddhist wrote: Bug: You're supposed to be able to use the shield battery ability on the ground near units, and the units automatically run to the shield battery to get healed. This does not work.
Also is it just me, or is the music not working?
Music works for terran and zerg, but not for protoss (yet)
On January 30 2011 19:37 Crissaegrim wrote: How about tinkering with game balance now that you have all the small print down? I know scouts were the BM unit to make but how about actually making them useful? Perhaps a small tweak here and there would improve the game, after all BW is CLOSE to perfection, not perfect.
It is a map mod. Changing static values is a trivial task that you can do yourself.
Man, the thing I notice the most is how much longer battles last. It makes for much more dynamic play and micro becomes so much more important. I wish this was the case for SC2
hey man can you pull out some better graphic i think it sucks to whatch on this graphic setings...
what is the point of whatch SC2 BW with lower graphic seting (that is like you whatc SC1 bw) lol ? do you ppl use your brain at all ? or if you dont have good comp than its ok but agean.....is lol....
On February 02 2011 07:11 hiro protagonist wrote: Man, the thing I notice the most is how much longer battles last. It makes for much more dynamic play and micro becomes so much more important. I wish this was the case for SC2
yeah i like the style of just brawling and going punch for punch. sc2 micro is 95% positioning and 5% stutter step but sc1's is far far deeper.
Yup Everything looks fantastic but a pool of blue blood underneath dying Dragoons would make it feel authentic. I didn't realize how much I missed that graphic.
Yup Everything looks fantastic but a pool of blue blood underneath dying Dragoons would make it feel authentic. I didn't realize how much I missed that graphic.
one day... blizzard did not release their import/export tools for m3 files. we have to make do with nintoxicated's 3rd party importer. which atm doesn't support particles and has a few bugs. one day when it can happen it probably will happen
Notice how the goon battle in the second game didn't end in the blink of an eye like in sc2. Perhaps sc2 units kill too efficiently?
One complaint though, the goons don't have enough team color, i was getting confused in the match. Im sure thats an easy thing for you to fix, although if you don't have the time, you could send me the goon dds texture and i could try to add some more team color for you.
This map/mod looks super awesome. Kudos, I look forward to trying it out when I have the time and reminding myself just how bad I really was at BW. Quick question: from those videos it looks like the 'smarter' unit pathing from SC2 is still in effect. Is that the case, or did you also manage to simulate BW style pathing (dragoons being too dumb to handle narrow ramps en masse, units taking crazy long paths to move around blocked paths, etc.)?
For the tournament, I have a small suggestion: after the semifinals round is done, you should invite the two eliminated players who never played BW competitively play a sort of 'consolation round'. There doesn't have to be prize money set aside for that match, but just having that match streamed (and casted, if there's gonna be a tournament caster to begin with) would help motivate those of us who were never any good at BW to participate. If you don't do it that way, I highly suggest doing something like a group stage or power paired preliminary rounds that are non-elimination, and saving elimination rounds for later in the tournament. I'm sure I'm not the only SC2 player who was never any good at BW but would love to participate in this, but it's hard to motivate myself to schedule a day around this tournament if I'll probably just play one round and get crushed by some BW expert.
in case you don't know what I mean by power paired prelims, basically it would work like this:
-First round is randomly paired
-Second round, round one winners play another random winner and round one losers play another random loser
-Third round and on, people are matched based on overall win-loss record. If there are an odd number with a certain record then someone has to get matched up or down a bracket, but for the most part, people who are 3-1 will play other 3-1s, people at 2-2 will play other 2-2s, etc. You never play any of the players you've already faced in a previous round during the prelims (you can still play each other again in the elimination rounds).
-After some pre-set number of rounds, the top X records advance to single elimination rounds. Traditionally they are paired top-to-bottom, so if 16 players go on to elims then the first elim round would be top seed against 16th seed, 2nd against 15th, etc.
The only real downside, IMO, is that you have to gather all the results from each round before you can generate pairings for the next one. You can find software that will handle the random pairing for you and figure out how to minimize the number of mismatches. I did competitive policy debate in college and they used a system like this; it's good for people at the top of the curve, since they don't miss qualifying for the later stage based on one fluke game, and it's especially nice for all the players who don't expect to win the tournament, because they still get to play a few rounds and try for an above-average record.
On February 02 2011 11:47 solistus wrote: This map/mod looks super awesome. Kudos, I look forward to trying it out when I have the time and reminding myself just how bad I really was at BW. Quick question: from those videos it looks like the 'smarter' unit pathing from SC2 is still in effect. Is that the case, or did you also manage to simulate BW style pathing (dragoons being too dumb to handle narrow ramps en masse, units taking crazy long paths to move around blocked paths, etc.)?
99% of that is caused by units in bw only move in 8 directions. something i can't replicate. or atleast not yet.
On February 02 2011 11:22 pzea469 wrote: I watched the gisado matches, awesome
Notice how the goon battle in the second game didn't end in the blink of an eye like in sc2. Perhaps sc2 units kill too efficiently?
One complaint though, the goons don't have enough team color, i was getting confused in the match. Im sure thats an easy thing for you to fix, although if you don't have the time, you could send me the goon dds texture and i could try to add some more team color for you.
Yeah thats something i miss from BW. SC2 units kill everything so quickly and battles a donw in a matter of seconds. In BW every battle no matter how small was nail biting.
Imma laugh if years from now people only buy SC2 to play BW 2.0 . That would be the biggest Epic failure in Gaming History.
Can you make it more obvious on the coloring of hostile dragoons? ( They're both golden for your own and enemy units? ) The colors were easy to discern from in BW.
my net sucks, can anyone put this on youtube or something?
if you know a way to download them i can for me tho it was super laggy the first 3 minutes but then after the 3 minute mark for some reason it started playing smooth
While I applaud the effort put into these mods, I really don't get why people would want to play BW via SC2. For a start it will always be inferior to the real thing.
If you want to play BW, do like the rest of us and load up BW.... it will never be the same via SC2 no matter how much work is put into it.
On February 03 2011 08:45 emythrel wrote: While I applaud the effort put into these mods, I really don't get why people would want to play BW via SC2. For a start it will always be inferior to the real thing.
If you want to play BW, do like the rest of us and load up BW.... it will never be the same via SC2 no matter how much work is put into it.
i think theres a very nice little middle ground where this mod currently sits in . I'm pretty commited to this and will exhaust all effort to make it identical to BW if im able. but i respect your opinion
btw, do you have to take out the good things they implented? Like map fog..... starting with 6 workers? and changing all the hotkeys.... more of a hassle then anything, people play sc2 melee then they play this and its like... o wtf
On February 03 2011 10:14 FrostyTreats wrote: btw, do you have to take out the good things they implented? Like map fog..... starting with 6 workers? and changing all the hotkeys.... more of a hassle then anything, people play sc2 melee then they play this and its like... o wtf
there are sc2 style hotkeys my map also supports the hotkey manager blizzard implemented so you can do your own hotkeys if you wish. the other things. i think are neccesary.
Would it be possible to fix the map fog to SC2 style, make the pathing not awful, and not screw with shift orders? Masochistic people are welcome to play with the SC:BW engine (same way they can turn off automining, MBS, etc) but for trying to play this as SC:BW on a better engine it's annoying to have all these engine limitations manually added. I can't count the number of times I went back to find half my SCVs hugging an academy or to find my entire army stuck behind 1 Marine, and while I realize that happened in BW if I wanted to play BW with all the engine issues I would play BW.
On February 04 2011 00:33 Pewt wrote: Would it be possible to fix the map fog to SC2 style, make the pathing not awful, and not screw with shift orders? Masochistic people are welcome to play with the SC:BW engine (same way they can turn off automining, MBS, etc) but for trying to play this as SC:BW on a better engine it's annoying to have all these engine limitations manually added. I can't count the number of times I went back to find half my SCVs hugging an academy or to find my entire army stuck behind 1 Marine, and while I realize that happened in BW if I wanted to play BW with all the engine issues I would play BW.
Quite a few of the engine issues is what makes the game.
On February 04 2011 00:33 Pewt wrote: Would it be possible to fix the map fog to SC2 style, make the pathing not awful, and not screw with shift orders? Masochistic people are welcome to play with the SC:BW engine (same way they can turn off automining, MBS, etc) but for trying to play this as SC:BW on a better engine it's annoying to have all these engine limitations manually added. I can't count the number of times I went back to find half my SCVs hugging an academy or to find my entire army stuck behind 1 Marine, and while I realize that happened in BW if I wanted to play BW with all the engine issues I would play BW.
Um, learn to micro? You have no idea how hard Terran in BW is. Like, it took me at least 9 months of straight Terran play to get it to D level. What I'm saying is, this mod is trying to become BW as much as it is possible within the SC2 engine. But the engine improvements are vast. Your issues are nothing compared to the issues present in playing T in BW.
On February 04 2011 00:33 Pewt wrote: Would it be possible to fix the map fog to SC2 style, make the pathing not awful, and not screw with shift orders? Masochistic people are welcome to play with the SC:BW engine (same way they can turn off automining, MBS, etc) but for trying to play this as SC:BW on a better engine it's annoying to have all these engine limitations manually added. I can't count the number of times I went back to find half my SCVs hugging an academy or to find my entire army stuck behind 1 Marine, and while I realize that happened in BW if I wanted to play BW with all the engine issues I would play BW.
Um, learn to micro? You have no idea how hard Terran in BW is. Like, it took me at least 9 months of straight Terran play to get it to D level. What I'm saying is, this mod is trying to become BW as much as it is possible within the SC2 engine. But the engine improvements are vast. Your issues are nothing compared to the issues present in playing T in BW.
The Fog was like that in all their older games until SC2 so that people would need knowledge of the map prior to playing it.
On February 04 2011 00:33 Pewt wrote: Would it be possible to fix the map fog to SC2 style, make the pathing not awful, and not screw with shift orders? Masochistic people are welcome to play with the SC:BW engine (same way they can turn off automining, MBS, etc) but for trying to play this as SC:BW on a better engine it's annoying to have all these engine limitations manually added. I can't count the number of times I went back to find half my SCVs hugging an academy or to find my entire army stuck behind 1 Marine, and while I realize that happened in BW if I wanted to play BW with all the engine issues I would play BW.
Um, learn to micro? You have no idea how hard Terran in BW is. Like, it took me at least 9 months of straight Terran play to get it to D level. What I'm saying is, this mod is trying to become BW as much as it is possible within the SC2 engine. But the engine improvements are vast. Your issues are nothing compared to the issues present in playing T in BW.
The Fog was like that in all their older games until SC2 so that people would need knowledge of the map prior to playing it.
He just needs more APM
More APM for sure. Like, I have trouble with BW T and I have 200-ish APM.
Great job! And the music man, how I miss that music. I don't mind the hotkeys at all, after playing SC1 for so long it just take a sec to get the momentun going again.
On February 04 2011 01:31 fenixdown wrote: Great job! And the music man, how I miss that music. I don't mind the hotkeys at all, after playing SC1 for so long it just take a sec to get the momentun going again.
You can set the hotkeys to left side of keyboard a la SC2. Goto the hotkeys menu and choose the bottom option! I NEVER play with BW hotkeys. M for marine sucks when you have to hit it 20 times a minute.
On February 04 2011 00:33 Pewt wrote: Would it be possible to fix the map fog to SC2 style, make the pathing not awful, and not screw with shift orders? Masochistic people are welcome to play with the SC:BW engine (same way they can turn off automining, MBS, etc) but for trying to play this as SC:BW on a better engine it's annoying to have all these engine limitations manually added. I can't count the number of times I went back to find half my SCVs hugging an academy or to find my entire army stuck behind 1 Marine, and while I realize that happened in BW if I wanted to play BW with all the engine issues I would play BW.
Um, learn to micro? You have no idea how hard Terran in BW is. Like, it took me at least 9 months of straight Terran play to get it to D level. What I'm saying is, this mod is trying to become BW as much as it is possible within the SC2 engine. But the engine improvements are vast. Your issues are nothing compared to the issues present in playing T in BW.
I've played T in BW and didn't actually find it all that terrible, although I wasn't any good really (D-D+). I'm just saying I don't see the point of purposefully making the engine worse since if you want to play SC:BW on a bad engine you have, well, SC:BW.
I also know how to micro, it's just that when I'm playing games on the SC2 engine I am generally used to telling my units to go somewhere and not having them get stuck halfway down a ramp for no apparent reason. Hell, I've had more trouble with this than the SC:BW AI since at least the SC:BW AI is predictably bad (and thus you stay to micro your units down ramps) whereas this is seemingly random.
It's not like such a mode would affect anyone who wants to play with poor unit AI--there are already modes for automining, MBS, and the like that work just fine.
My friend and I also found these "hardcoded" limitations (as in not the ones that were options) affected Terran much more than Zerg, notably when dealing with Mutalisk harass, although the game became much more fair when we turned off *all* the SC2 improvements (although by that point I was asking myself why I didn't just boot up iCCup and play there).
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As for map fog, I'm well aware of why it exists and I don't see the point of it.
On February 04 2011 06:10 MavercK wrote: they are options. they are not forced on you. if you dont want to play with them you dont have to.
The bad pathing and seemingly broken shift commands are not options, that's what my post was about. I was asking about making those options for those of us who want to play SC:BW fully on the SC2 engine but it got lost in all the "mad cuz bad" replies.
On February 04 2011 06:10 MavercK wrote: they are options. they are not forced on you. if you dont want to play with them you dont have to.
The bad pathing and seemingly broken shift commands are not options, that's what my post was about. I was asking about making those options for those of us who want to play SC:BW fully on the SC2 engine but it got lost in all the "mad cuz bad" replies.
bad pathing was a side effect of units in sc1 being only allowed to move in 8 directions. currently i cannot recreate this limitation. broken shift commands. do you mean not being able to queue up buildings and stuff like that? i can probably implement that.
Bad pathing: In SC2 units generally move out of the way for each other, siphon nicely down ramps, etc, as I'm sure you know.
In SC2BW units don't move out of the way for each other (one poorly placed Marine will block your Tank/Vult/Goliath army), armies have a habit of getting stuck on ramps for no apparent reason, and units will sometimes get stuck on each other even when they are both moving the same direction. I assumed this was intentional. Units will sometimes even get stuck on one another (such as on said poorly placed Marine) if they *could* go around the unit but the theoretical fastest route is through it.
As for the broken shift orders, much of the time that I tried to do something along the lines of "box 6 SCVs, order two to make depots, shift everyone back to a mineral patch" they would all end up hugging one of the depots. It's possible that I just made a bunch of mistakes but I basically never make them in SC2 ladder and it happened to me multiple times a game in SC2BW until I just stopped using shift to build stuff entirely. Once again, not sure if this was intentional.
This is based on playing 10-15ish games with two of my friends earlier today.
Also, the MBS and unit selection cap tweaks seem rather imbalanced in that I have enough time to, say, stim all my Marines before it auto-deselects most of them and, say, order all my hatcheries to build stuff (assuming I have some rapid method of selecting them, such as double clicking a bunch on the same screen) before it auto-deselects all but one of them. Perhaps you should catch orders which are issued simultaneously to more than the maximum number of units and cancel them for everyone but the first twelve? It could be tricky (especially with maintaining previous orders) but yeah.
On February 04 2011 06:49 Pewt wrote: Bad pathing: In SC2 units generally move out of the way for each other, siphon nicely down ramps, etc, as I'm sure you know.
In SC2BW units don't move out of the way for each other (one poorly placed Marine will block your Tank/Vult/Goliath army), armies have a habit of getting stuck on ramps for no apparent reason, and units will sometimes get stuck on each other even when they are both moving the same direction. I assumed this was intentional. Units will sometimes even get stuck on one another (such as on said poorly placed Marine) if they *could* go around the unit but the theoretical fastest route is through it.
As for the broken shift orders, much of the time that I tried to do something along the lines of "box 6 SCVs, order two to make depots, shift everyone back to a mineral patch" they would all end up hugging one of the depots. It's possible that I just made a bunch of mistakes but I basically never make them in SC2 ladder and it happened to me multiple times a game in SC2BW until I just stopped using shift to build stuff entirely. Once again, not sure if this was intentional.
This is based on playing 10-15ish games with two of my friends earlier today.
Also, the MBS and unit selection cap tweaks seem rather imbalanced in that I have enough time to, say, stim all my Marines before it auto-deselects most of them and, say, order all my hatcheries to build stuff (assuming I have some rapid method of selecting them, such as double clicking a bunch on the same screen) before it auto-deselects all but one of them. Perhaps you should catch orders which are issued simultaneously to more than the maximum number of units and cancel them for everyone but the first twelve? It could be tricky (especially with maintaining previous orders) but yeah.
yea the pathing can actually be made into an option.
in sc2 workers have "wait at mineral patch" where if an existing worker mining is almost done. another will just sit there and wait. this wasn't present in sc1 and i can't seem to just disable in the gather ability. my solution to this was a string of behaviors to check mining state and then re-ordering the worker to gather another random mineral patch. this works great. the only issue is if you grab say 6 workers and hold shift and build 2x depots. 50% chance you will queue the build order after a worker mines. in which case theres a chance your build order will be replaced by a new gather mineral by this trigger. i recommend not using shift. i may improve this trigger soon to take into account queued orders and re-add them. keeping the order intact.
MBS and MUS triggers i am myself not happy with. it's a dodgy bandaid fix on something i actually have no control over. i really want to improve/fix this but it's not going to be easy.
anyway. this kind of feedback really shouldn't go in this thread. the 99 page thread in custom map section which is linked to in the OP has this sole purpose i fear i will soon receive a temp ban for spamming TL.net with sc2bw heh .
The MBS and Unit Selection Limitations are buggy, but it's hard as hell to code them at all. Mav is certainly looking into other options and I've been brainstorming more options too.
On February 04 2011 07:15 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: The MBS and Unit Selection Limitations are buggy, but it's hard as hell to code them at all. Mav is certainly looking into other options and I've been brainstorming more options too.
I modded wc3 a ton (vJass etc etc) but haven't really gotten into SC2, so I'd be happy to throw you guys some solutions that I think might work but I can't guarantee do. However, I guess this is better placed in the custom map section--wasn't aware that this had a thread there.
On February 04 2011 07:15 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: The MBS and Unit Selection Limitations are buggy, but it's hard as hell to code them at all. Mav is certainly looking into other options and I've been brainstorming more options too.
I modded wc3 a ton (vJass etc etc) but haven't really gotten into SC2, so I'd be happy to throw you guys some solutions that I think might work but I can't guarantee do. However, I guess this is better placed in the custom map section--wasn't aware that this had a thread there.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5470/sc2bw.jpg)
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