I've created this thread to talk and get your opinion about the over-used word "rage", it's definition and what's behind this "concept. It starts by the fact I'm often "considered" as a bad manner player because people also consider me as a "rager", while i don't. When I take a look at the online dictionnary of the word "rage" i can read:
Rage – noun . angry fury; violent anger. . a violent desire or passion. . the object of widespread enthusiasm, as for being popular or fashionable: Raccoon coats were the rage on campus.
In the meantime "rage" seems to be defined by the SC community as the fact you're just saying something else than "gg wp" at the end of a lost game.
Example Me: That's now 5 times in a row my protoss opponent go for proxy gates/cannons, is it school holiday or something? 5th protoss opponent : rage?
At this moment i wasn't really in an angry fury, nor in a violent anger or caring for raccoon coats, I was just noticing that it looked kinda stupid/kiddish to play that way, especially because he started the game saying "have fun" when he knew it won't be about fun at all. Then, as i was reading this topic http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136123 i just understood that everyone has his own definition of what "raging" is.
Examples found in the mentionned thread PvZ on Blistering Sands Him: you're lucky i'm so drunk Me: WELL IM HIGH LOL Him: noob then he watches me rape his nat and then leaves
Me: Nice name, where are you from? Him: korea Me: Why are you on the US server? Him: ????? He loses 7 minutes after the game starts.
To make this whole thing clear and to avoid the trolls army to post its billion definitions down there, i'll go for the poll:
Poll: Calling your opponent a rager is appropriate when:
He keeps insulting you and your family till the end of the game and refuses to leave (171)
65%
He is talking about imbalances or saying cheesing is bad (29)
11%
He leaves without saying "gg" (22)
8%
He says you won because you were lucky or because he was drunk/sick/... (19)
7%
He says you played bad (11)
4%
He's calling you a newb and you're really higher ranked than him (7)
3%
He pretends you cheated/hacked (6)
2%
265 total votes
Your vote: Calling your opponent a rager is appropriate when:
(Vote): He is talking about imbalances or saying cheesing is bad (Vote): He says you played bad (Vote): He pretends you cheated/hacked (Vote): He's calling you a newb and you're really higher ranked than him (Vote): He keeps insulting you and your family till the end of the game and refuses to leave (Vote): He says you won because you were lucky or because he was drunk/sick/... (Vote): He leaves without saying "gg"
Now according to the topic mentionned above, i've also notice players who are calling others "ragers" seems amazingly wise (Yoda style) and won't say anything more than: - =), :>, ;(, ... - Ok cool story bro - Lol - YOU are the newb - Etc ...
So let's get to the second poll:
Poll: According to your answer(s) in the previous poll, you may say
I never call people ragers (133)
52%
Sometimes i call people ragers while I can also be the one raging (76)
30%
I call people ragers and never rage (48)
19%
257 total votes
Your vote: According to your answer(s) in the previous poll, you may say
(Vote): Sometimes i call people ragers while I can also be the one raging (Vote): I call people ragers and never rage (Vote): I never call people ragers
I've decided to put those polls online for two reasons The first one is to know what the TL community people have in mind when they're talking about raging, the second one is to put it in perspective and to check if calling a person a rager is not actually an "easy word" as "newb", that people use when they consider themself as better players for a moment. This came into my mind and makes me laugh as soon as i noticed that "newb/noob" is also what allow the same people to use the "rage" word ... waiting for your comments on that point.
Second part of the thread
Now to make the most of this thread i'd like to talk about another manner aspect of the game, the "gl hf gg" one.
[Mylife] When i started playing SC in 2000 (if i remember well), noone was using those 6 letters, and actually the community was really, really, REALLY more manner than it is now. Insulting was truly rare whereas people were more chatting in-game, mostly talking about the game they just played, trying to improve their skills, etc ... Then i came to those first french parisian Cybercafé (Parkage, Artefact, Playnet one for french readers here ) and got to see Elky playing and improving the skills that will allow him to reach Korea some years later.
One day i saw him play against some other european players and writting stuff like "that is/was a good game", and the other answering "yes for sure ". Then it becames "good game", then "gg", then they started this well known team called "Good Game" where elky was GG1 Elky@dr (Denise Richard), and so on. Some other abbreviation were also here before, as "gl hf", but it looked more as "game" thing, people were having fun putting as much abbreviations as they could to make the opponent go "? xD" (hl gf - have love good fuck etc ...) then gl hf stayed and spread to the whole esport gaming world. [/Mylife]
That's the way i've always considered those 6 letters, something fun and secondary.
What's the matter now? Nowdays those letters are considered as a manner attitude, often compared to the hands you shake when you meet and play basketball for example, so if you don't write down those 4 letters right at start, you may be considered as a bad mannered ass hole. My opinion is that, in 2011, the "gl hf" and "gg" attitude is now something "stupid".
What do i mean by "stupid"? I mean that those 6 letters have totally lost their meaning. Saying "gl hf" can be justified in lan competitions, but most of the time when you're playing online it just looks like people are acting as robots, unable to say anything more than those letters, making the "contact" between players even more unhuman. So you can be considered as a "manner" player if you only chat with your opponent using "gl hf gg", which looks quite "stupid" to me. So many times when i don't reply "gl hf" and go for something else more "human", he would just call me a bad manner player. But seriously, if you're not "having fun", considering we're playing games, wouldn't it be better to just shut your computer and go for something else? Same for "good luck", if you say so, why call your opponent a rager if later he argues that you're a lucker?
Why am i writting this? I'm writting this part because i've noticed that more and more people are thinking quite the same when i get onto that topic, some are just bored of writting "gl hf" on and on, 15 times in a row, looking like a parrot when the other player just do the same. Even if i know that people are going to say "Huh but pros do that, so it's cool, so i do that" and "korean commentators shout GG at the end of every game and koreans are the best, so it's cool, so i do that", i wanted to get a global feeling on this point, so last poll:
Poll: What's your opinion on the "gl hf gg" attitude?
It's just a manner thing, nothing more (264)
60%
I only use "gg", when it was actually an interesting game, a "good game" (107)
24%
I go for it only to be polite when my opponent go for it first (46)
11%
I never use those abbreviations (20)
5%
437 total votes
Your vote: What's your opinion on the "gl hf gg" attitude?
(Vote): It's just a manner thing, nothing more (Vote): I go for it only to be polite when my opponent go for it first (Vote): I only use "gg", when it was actually an interesting game, a "good game" (Vote): I never use those abbreviations
Thank you for reading and answering, wanted to have the community feeling about those things i have in mind for a long time
rage is part of the game. this game is hard and it's early to a point where you don't always know the best response nor how to try and find out the right response without really good practice partners and hours of practice. sometimes people rage silently, sometimes they make some comment to you. i think it happens to everyone who takes the game remotely seriously. i try to stay level headed but sometimes when i lose to the same build over and over, especially to the same player over and over, and i'm trying different ways to fight it off and failing i get really frustrated even when im streaming and drop a whole bunch of fbombs and yell at the guy. shit happens xD
On January 25 2011 04:49 imaROBOT wrote: It's easy. Rage is when you or your opponent get's mad/angry at something. It could be a number of different things that they rage about.
Thank you, that is exactly what i'm talking about in the first part of the thread, and that's why i've copy past the dictionary definition.
Is it because i "talk" about a (supposed or not) imbalance thing that i'm getting "mad" and that i can be called a "rager"?
You've answered, but I'm not sure everything is ok with that.
What about for the first poll, "All of the above?"
=P
I consider rage anything where they seem pissed. I kind of think of rage and "enraged" as the same thing, maybe because they sound similar. I don't know.
There's nothing wrong with having a conversation. The majority of my games start off with people asking me if I'm Chill from TL and we talk about TL. Then at the end of the game we often talk about the game and exchange advice before GGing.
I think your premise is pretty flimsy. "That's now 5 times in a row my protoss opponent go for proxy gates/cannons, is it school holiday or something?" is you talking down to someone, of course he's not going to respond positively. You can avoid the typical glhf & gg without condescending on someone.
Your poll is mixing up rage and bm. A player can insult my familiy without raging and can rage without insulting my family. While I don't like to be insulted and don't enjoy the presence of players who do so on the ladder or in the community, "rage" als my opponent's (speculative) emotional state is none of my business.
Also, I think you blow it out of proportion. I play a lot of games in which there is no "glhf", no "gg" and no problem whatsoever.
i'm sure the discussion of this topic could go on for ages, i myself have changed opinions on it a few times just in the past month, my whole take on it now:
i honestly think the whole glhf gg thing is complete bullshit. the only times i think it is appropriate is if you are playing with a teammate and you ACTUALLY wish him a good game and to have fun playing it too. on ladder, or in competitive tournaments, the connotations that go along with saying them really just irk me. I DONT want the guy i need to beat to have better luck than I, and i hope he plays horribly so i can beat him. If he has fun doing that, so be it, but i doubt he will.
On ladder, when i first started playing SC2 i would glhf if i was in a good mood, just felt like a good thing to do. As time went on, i stopped saying anything all together, i would ONLY respond with a simple GL if they said anything at the start (if they said GG at the start though, thats what i would respond with rather than GL)
now, i just plain dont say anything. even if they "glhf" i just dont respond (theyre probably going to 4gate me anyway). there is nothing that makes my blood boil like when someone tells you to have fun at the start and then they cheese you. People don't really care about good legitimate practice on ladder, they just want to win- which almost nullifies the purpose of saying GLHF in the first place.
As for saying GG, i will only do it if i legitimately thought that it was a good fucking game. if i got proxied, im not going to GG (i will probably say something witty before leaving, though). if it was a legitimately well played game by the guy who beat me, i will tell him he played well and that it was a good game.
All of this came after switching to zerg XD, people told me it would be frustrating, they were right.
I'd say that characterizing leaving without a "gg" as "rage" is probably a lot more common when looking at tournament games, where people know they're being watched, there's a small community of people who know each other pretty well as competitors, and where there are high standards for politeness.
As for everything else OP talked about, it all sounds pretty rude to me.
I try and be human about it. I often say Gl Hf because I truly wish my opponent luck (we all need it sometimes), and I really want us to both have fun. On the other hand, sometimes I'm not in a good mood, and I won't say gl hf unless they say it to me first (or I may not reply, but thats unusual). Its petty, but its human, and just about how I'm feeling at the time. I feel kinda like a rager at times, but often I actually get along with the people I wanna rage at, cause I know there will always be faults in my own play that lose me the game. I find that most of the people who call others ragers are people who are intentionally playing just to pick fights with online people, trying to get a rise out of you. Which is funny cause these people always make me laugh the most. Sometimes I don't gg (not BM at all when laddering, fuck its a casual gaming experience why should I have to say shit to you when I lose) just because I know if I hit enter I will probably type something I will regret.
PS- I enjoy a nice friendly Hi or other simple greetings more than Gl Hf, cause they usually actually lead to some other kind of communication besides acronyms ^_^.
I only consider it raging or bm when the player is obviously trying to insult you. I always say gg, most opponents don't but I never thought of it as bad manner. If the guy just lost hes probably a little annoyed or upset, I know what it's like, doesn't mean he's an asshole.
I don't consider having a conversation at the start of the game to be wrong, but I've seen a lot of people who talk a lot at the start of the game to be trying to distract you from some cheese they're about to do, so I tend to get suspicious.
At the start of the game, I don't say GL. Only HF. Why would i want my opponent to have luck? This is war, and I need all the luck i need.
Otherwise i am normally a manner player.
For the first half of your thread though, i define someone raging as when they insult you when leaving without a gg, then possibly continue the insults after the game. They also occasionally call me lucky.
And yes, i do rage sometimes. It takes a while for me to start, but yeah i do rage.
Ive been thinking lately, and almost hating on the community everytime a rage story happened to me. You dont say GL HF? your an asshole You dont say GG when you lose? you rage and then he proceeds to chat with you and type "SAY GG" You dont talk to him? No matter what happens to you, it can be a bad day, you just dont want to talk to anyone, whatever. You dont talk? your raging. You dont do what he expects you to do? you rage again.
sigh... i hope the entire world reads this post and thinks a while about it. Seriously, its getting so absourd that i dont even want to play anymore.
On January 25 2011 05:12 SpooN) wrote: i honestly think the whole glhf gg thing is complete bullshit. the only times i think it is appropriate is if you are playing with a teammate and you ACTUALLY wish him a good game and to have fun playing it too. on ladder, or in competitive tournaments, the connotations that go along with saying them really just irk me. I DONT want the guy i need to beat to have better luck than I, and i hope he plays horribly so i can beat him. If he has fun doing that, so be it, but i doubt he will.
[stuff deleted]
All of this came after switching to zerg XD, people told me it would be frustrating, they were right.
First off, it sounds to me like you're struggling with where you are in the game right now, and not really enjoying it as a result. If this is making you turn inward and resent the people against whom you're playing, it might be time to take a break for a while. You might enjoy the game more when you come back.
Second, polite formulations like saying "please" and "thank you" to people in real life, or "gl hf" in the game, serve a different function socially than you think they do. Obviously when you're playing the game you're going to do your best to win, but "gl hf" at the start or "gg" at the end is intended to communicate respect for your opponent as a person and nothing more. Even if they choose a strategy you consider cheap, and you are not impressed with their play, at least an effort to remain personally respectful of your opponents will get you in a better mental state to think about what could have gone differently when you lose rather than blaming them for your loss.
Edit: I don't have any problem with someone not saying gl hf at the start or not saying gg should they lose, but I do it every single time. I'm not going to get sucked into the trap of resenting my opponent when it's on me to succeed against them.
I consider it a manner thing to say gl hf but if my opponent doesn't, I don't think badly of them. And all that crap you listed can be raged about. It doesn't matter what its about, just that they are pissed off and writing about it at the end of the game, and insulting you. What's so hard to understand about that?
When it comes to GG though, it's just considered courteous to say it after a loss. If you're not doing it, your pissed off about losing, and you aren't giving your respects to your fellow gamer. In Starcraft we've always separated ourselves from certain other unnamed genres of games, and this convention is one of those small things that helps us do that.
On January 25 2011 05:34 Loophole wrote: The game isnt as well balanced though, and some people are pissed about it, which I guess I can understand to a point.
Problem is that there are too many people out there who blame their own weaknesses on the game being imbalanced. There probably aren't that many people on the ladder who are playing at a level that they can really discern imbalance from their own blind spots.
note: i understand being in a bad mood after a shitty day, when you just want to play a game to relax and not talk to anyone or engage in frivolous 'good manner' just because; or on occasion when you're too upset with your own mistakes you just f10n and go take a smoke. this post is not about those situations. it's about people who make a point out of avoiding what is generally considered 'good manner'
you are engaging in a social activity, glhf is just a polite thing to say acknowledging the real person on the other line and that the game is meant to be a pleasurable activity.
if you cba typing 2-4 letters or 2 words to show some respect to the opponent at the start of a competitive activity in which both of you are engaged, and all you care about is the actual game itself, you yourself aren't really playing for fun and are a robot even moreso than the chaps who type glhf without it actually meaning anything to them - the definition of 'being a robot' is actually quite the reverse of what the op thinks in this case; therefore if you're one of these guys, please cut the' i use the terminology' "only if they do it first" or "only if it was a good game" bullshit, that's missing the point of good manners entirely and imho you're one of those escapists who hide behind their internet id's unless proven otherwise
as for saying gg, ye it can get frustrating to get cheesed or allined and such, but different peole think different tactics are cheese or allin and many a times they're not. now if you can't take the loss in a game like a man and acknowledge it was your fault for not being able to defend it OR when being in a situation that you think is the result of imbalance you can't control your frustrations to not go on tilt and rage at people, you probably shouldn't be playing this game, or need to grow up.
to address the op, all the options in the poll are rage imo, when you discard politeness and vent your frustrations by insulting people or trying to demean them to justify for your loss in a game, you're not deserving of a reply or attention. the proper response is stay calm, ignore,or at the most underline the fact that they lost and need to stfu, learn from it, and move on
and the gg, glhf, you don't need to use them, but it would be damn decent of you if you did say a couple polite words to a person that you're basically making first acquintance with - who might be a cheeser, but might also give you the most orgasmic macro-fest 1hour long game that you start talking for another hour after about and become friends-, and it helps keeping the online experience more enjoyable for everyone, which is kinda the point, this being a game and all ya'know. who knows, you might even start some good chats with people that cannon rush you, if you don't act like a robot teenager who's never anything but movie subtitles in his life
glhf, i wish you plenty of gg's. that is, unless you're rude, a rager, qq'er, and other such
I rage but I try not to rage through the game at the other player unless it's cheese. I mostly just yell and smash things if I lose to my own stupid mistake.
The term rage is definitely overused in gaming (i.e. IdrA leaving a game that he has clearly lost without typing "gg"). There is nothing there that would reasonably show that he is violently angry while leaving. Maybe he just doesn't want to talk to you. Maybe he if actually really happy because he bet Artosis that a certain build is not viable and they placed a bet on whether or not it would win, and losing the game just won him 100 bucks.
Honestly a lot of the time people type "raggee" in these scenarios, it is them who are actually being BM by antagonizing their opponent and being "bad winners".
I play some left 4 dead 2, and sometimes in pub games one team will start out just roflstomping the other. To a good player it quickly becomes apparent that the other team is much better and that him and/or his teammates are nowhere near good enough to beat them. So why stay? He needn't be angry about it whatsoever, he just admits defeat and moves on to find a more competitive (read: fun) game.
I agree that people who *literally* rage are ridiculous and take their gaming too seriously (unless its your living in which case its reasonable to be frustrated with failing to make progress since your success depends on it). At the same time though most instances I see of people typing "rage LOL" into chat is not pointing out the BM of others, but actually BM bad winners who for some twisted reason take pride in the (often mistaken) idea that they, by winning, have made someone very angry and upset. Pretty sad...
On January 25 2011 05:06 Chill wrote: I think your premise is pretty flimsy. "That's now 5 times in a row my protoss opponent go for proxy gates/cannons, is it school holiday or something?" is you talking down to someone, of course he's not going to respond positively. You can avoid the typical glhf & gg without condescending on someone.
You're right, but what i tried to show with those 2 lines is that whatever you say, people can call you a rager, when it's really not the case. In this example, i wasn't mad at all, i don't care about losing to a cheeser, i mean, i may even feel sad for him.
This thread is more about the fact that rage is, according to me, totally overused. To be honest, i think that lots of people really love to see their opponents raging, they're just waiting for any sign of negative response to go that way and ... "having fun" calling him a rager.
Just think about that "rage stories" thread, why is there so many people reporting (supposed) "rage stories"? And why so many readers? What's so fun in reading insults, hate words, etc ...?
On January 25 2011 05:52 parn wrote: Just think about that "rage stories" thread, why is there so many people reporting (supposed) "rage stories"? And why so many readers? What's so fun in reading insults, hate words, etc ...?
Making fun of antisocial behavior is one way social groups reinforce the pressure not to behave that way, and I think many of the posts are motivated by people who have had experiences that make them wonder why someone would ever act like that.
Very nice polls, although i would vote on multiple definitions of rage. And also, when i get raged at, I always answer something very short, and something that I think will make the guy even more angry.
In my opinion, saying gl hf to a zerg as a protoss or terran is BM and it pisses me off every time.
I know you disagree, but guess what? - I dont give a fuck. Whenever I encounter those abbreviations I think to myself he's probably thinking gl (fending off my 4gate/bunker rush) hf (fending off my 4gate/bunker rush), but hey!, only 95% of the games are 4gates or 2rax bunker rushes :D :D
I never say anything in the beginning (except my opponent is a Zerg, yes I'm a racist), because I always regret it. When I say hf or wish him good luck he does some cheesy shit and I think to myself, why the fuck did I wish him good luck in the first place?
I also think it's BM saying good luck or have fun if you don't mean it - and who really wishes his opponents good luck? - idiots.
On January 25 2011 05:52 parn wrote: Just think about that "rage stories" thread, why is there so many people reporting (supposed) "rage stories"? And why so many readers? What's so fun in reading insults, hate words, etc ...?
Making fun of antisocial behavior is one way social groups reinforce the pressure not to behave that way, and I think many of the posts are motivated by people who have had experiences that make them wonder why someone would ever act like that.
Cmon ... check this topic we're talking about, we're far from "reinforcing the pressure" and "people wondering why".
Reading "rage stories", i really think that a lots of people consider those stories as a trophy, most of the time they are like: "look at how strong i am, how mad he gets at me raping him" while in fact the "rager" does not look angry at all and the "wise" guy is indeed a newb.
I stopped saying GLHF as it messes with my early game thought processes as I really could care less if my opponent has luck or fun. I want to have fun and if he can't have fun, that's his problem.
I only say GG if the game was actually a good game. I don't say good game just because I lost otherwise that would detract from games that are actually good when I GG out of a game that was terrible.
I used to not say GG if I lost to cheese, but then I realized that if I was too incompetent to stop it, I was the worse player, so I try and GG every game. The only exception is when I get someone who offensive GGs, in which case I simply leave.
The Gl Hf GG thing for me is all about not raging, actually. If I say these things, I'm less likely to obsess over and be angry at my loss.
I don't consider it BM if someone else fails to, I just check a little harder for cheesy plays.
Pretty much any random stranger that feels the need to say anything unrelated to gg at the end of the game is a rager in my eyes. Compliments, friendly conversation and whatnot are exceptions.
On January 25 2011 07:07 prototype. wrote: Pretty much any random stranger that feels the need to say anything unrelated to gg at the end of the game is a rager in my eyes. Compliments, friendly conversation and whatnot are exceptions.
you should not play this game nor interact with other human beigns for posting that.
I tend to allways say glhfs and stuff in the beginning. I don't gg when I felt I played terrible. I sometimes just walk away from the computer while I'm still ingame, this only happens when I'm on tilt.
On January 25 2011 06:49 parn wrote: Cmon ... check this topic we're talking about, we're far from "reinforcing the pressure" and "people wondering why".
There's why people find bad behavior interesting in general, and there's why some particular person feels a need to post. I was commenting on the general question.
Sorry for pushing old thread, but this is a pretty timeless topic and opening a new one would be unreasonable...
I'm quite surprised finding a lot of players arguing that saying gg was worthless anyways (for some reason out of all things I followed this discussion on Idras streams chat channel ^^) and it really feels like the number of people writing gg is decreasing. By now there are days where there are less people writing gg than doing so, and it's slowly becoming the same with gl hf (or whatever people write in the beginning, ofc I can unstand that some say "why should I wish him good luck, I hope the skilled one wins).
For myself, I definitly had some ragequits earlier, but by now I think that ragequitting is the way worse way of leaving for myself. Writing gg shows a certain attitude of not taking it too seriously, of beeing able to reflect in what way it was my own fault why I lost, knowing that my opponent was not unbeatably good but that I just did some things wrong which I won't do wrong again. It means that especially when my opponent wins in some way I consider weird, cheesy, lucky, whatever, I specifically write gg to show him that he did not piss me off that much just by winning.
On the flipside it means that I'm not angry about ragequitters, but rather amused about them not having that pride but openly showing their anger and, to some degree, childishness.
Today I had some fun opponents when playing some 3on3 for fun with allies. I wanted to complete that achievement of having 3v3 wins in each race combination, and last one missing was Zerg. So we went Zerg - 2 people off-racing this way - and just decided to open 7- to 8-pool. We ended up having a nice advantage though not winning of the bat and what they did: flaming us all day, taking island expo with 30 turrets+Vikings and stuff. Then even going so far of plugging/unplugging their cables to slowly lag out. Well, what should I say, we had a fun time on teamspeak. After a few minutes of beeing annoyed, it was really fun observing them beeing kids.
Is there an option where you just keep your cool or pretend to be stupid/silly? That's what I usually end up doing regardless if I'm winning or losing.
Your vote: Calling your opponent a rager is appropriate when:
(Vote): He is talking about imbalances or saying cheesing is bad (Vote): He says you played bad (Vote): He pretends you cheated/hacked (Vote): He's calling you a newb and you're really higher ranked than him (Vote): He keeps insulting you and your family till the end of the game and refuses to leave (Vote): He says you won because you were lucky or because he was drunk/sick/... (Vote): He leaves without saying "gg"
Calling s.o. a "rager" is an insult and therefore never appropriate. If s.o. really believes he had to insult me/my family i only get a big banana-grin, thinking to myself "what an idiot" and simply fade him out and ignore him.
I really like to see that kind of reaction as a vote.
TBH I always "gg gl hf" in every game I play ... I don't know why some people Rage and waste their time thinking of insults rather than be well mannered...
On April 14 2011 23:17 Lysenko wrote: Damn it, did not realize this was a bumped thread. This doesn't need a response.
Now there's an attidude I'll never understand. Adding nothing new to a discussion is fine as long as there isn't an "Old post" image underneath it? Assuming you do have something new to add (else why post at all?), why should that not be said just because the post has exceeded an arbitrary age? As long as a discussion can keep going without rehashing things that were already said, it's not a dead discussion.
Anyway, what I think the whole manner (can we stop calling it that? Using bad grammar on purpose just to sound Korean seems kind of odd) thing comes down to is two-fold.
1. Differentiation from people that have annoyed them previously. If a player faces a jackass that rubs their loss in their face three times in a row, you can bet money that he's going to be pissed, no matter how hard he pretends to be above it. Because this player has evolved past the point of a primate, he doesn't vent his frustration by harassing the other player. Instead, he channels that negative energy into a sense of superiority over the bad mannered players. The "GLHF" thing at the beginning of the game is simply a badge of honour. In that sense, the OP is right in that it doesn't carry any meaning anymore - it has basically devolved into a disclaimer that says "If you harass me, you are the loser by default".
2. Acceptance. The SC2 community is (or at least used to be) a different kind of player on average from games like Counterstrike or Halo, or even Quake/Unreal to some extent. The game doesn't bring the same kind of emotions into play and as such attracts players with a different kind of attitude. Look at the difference between Halo/CS and SC2 tournaments, both players and spectators, and see for yourself. When was the last time you saw an SC2 player yell at and physically intimidate their teammate for doing something stupid or throw a gaming peripheral across a stage?
This is a long-winded way of describing what some on this site like to call the "carebear attitude". Disliking players going with primitive instincts, yelling at others when winning/losing, disliking out-of-game trash talking, etc.
The combination of being a lot more reliant on the community to improve at this game than in other games (replays, strategy advice, builds, etc) and that community attaching more value (on average) to being good-natured and well mannered creates a situation where displaying typical signs of those characteristics (glhf, will to improve, less QQ more pewpew, etc) has become a rite of acceptance. You're showing you're one of the group, following group-acceptable behaviour. Simple human psychology. --
I agree with the OP in the sense that my expectations for my opponents play do not change one bit, regardless of his in-game attitude. A "GLHF" can just as well end in a 6pool as a player starting off with a nice insult and some passing comments about my mothers previous evening. Even more ironic is that players trying to start full conversations in-game are the ones that I expect to cheese or play in another lame way the most. It's simply the state of the gaming/internet community nowadays. Though I can't say what the exact cause is, I can point to another phenomenon: trolls.
There was a period a while back where being known as a troll was basically the highest known badge of honour in certain communities. Trolls were being looked up to as idols. That shift in attitude is not an isolated incident. The internet is simply more hostile nowadays.
edit: All this aside, a GG at the end of a game is a simple and quick way of admitting defeat. Leaving without the slighest acknowledge feels wrong if you've ever engaged in a face-to-face competition of some sort. When you're just not in the mood to type out "You played really well, fine sir. I admit defeat and congratulate you on your victory. May your next endeavours be equally succesful", you throw out a quick GG and start queueing for the next match. A simple "FU" would suffice as well, but most players know better than that.
I say gl hf every single game. I find a direct correlation between people who return my "gl hf" and people who don't, and cheese. The people who don't are the ones that often 6 pool, cannon rush, etc. I usually make sure I'm extra careful against them.
Usually near the end of a losing game I usually say "gg" and try asking for their opinion on how to improve, why they beat me, etc. I find this really helpful.
Usually at the beginning of the game, if I have something interesting to say I'll say it. Sometimes I vent about a certain matchup if I'm having a hard time, and during a ZvZ be like "ughh terran is just soo annoying" and chat a bit, till the game starts. usually leads to more manner and a better game (or feels like a better one).
On April 14 2011 23:49 DarQraven wrote: Now there's an attidude I'll never understand. Adding nothing new to a discussion is fine as long as there isn't an "Old post" image underneath it? Assuming you do have something new to add (else why post at all?), why should that not be said just because the post has exceeded an arbitrary age? As long as a discussion can keep going without rehashing things that were already said, it's not a dead discussion.
I was deleting a post that was specifically addressing the original poster from January, who may not even be following the thread anymore.
Also, I don't really believe the discussion has much value, and I didn't want to provoke more responses by posting something of substance. Looks like I failed at avoiding that.
On April 14 2011 23:49 DarQraven wrote: Now there's an attidude I'll never understand. Adding nothing new to a discussion is fine as long as there isn't an "Old post" image underneath it? Assuming you do have something new to add (else why post at all?), why should that not be said just because the post has exceeded an arbitrary age? As long as a discussion can keep going without rehashing things that were already said, it's not a dead discussion.
I was deleting a post that was specifically addressing the original poster from January, who may not even be following the thread anymore.
Also, I don't really believe the discussion has much value, and I didn't want to provoke more responses by posting something of substance. Looks like I failed at avoiding that.
Nothing wrong with some community-wide introspection;)
Hmm...interesting that this thread got bumped because something along these lines has been on my mind recently. For me, I always try to say "Have fun!" at the start of every game. I don't usually like to use abbreviations at all when I'm typing, especially when it's so easy to just type that in. I agree with the OP that just typing "gl hf" at the beginning is somewhat robotic and impersonal. When I type "Have fun!" I do mean it that I hope that whoever is in the game is going to have fun (including and especially myself).
An exception to the 'no abbreviations' rule is that I try to type "gg" at the end of the game when I lose. No matter what causes me to lose. I used to play FPS games and people usually say "gg" there when the round is over and I would type that to literally mean "good game," analogous to shaking hands after a match in the real world. When I use it in Starcraft, I use it to mean "I surrender" more than "good game". If the game is lost and I have no interest in playing it anymore then I just type "gg" and quickly leave the game (F11, n).
With that in mind, what really bothers me a lot is when people respond in a negative way. It happens quite often (hurray selection bias) that I would say "Have fun!" at the beginning of a (team) game and someone inevitably responds with, something along the lines of, "shut the ^&@# up!". The person might have meant this to be playful, but I've gotten playful responses before like "no i refuse!" and they don't bother me. I might actually feel chatty (depends on alcohol consumption) and respond with something like "SC is srs bznz". So I'm not so keen on concluding that it is playful more than it is malevolent. Besides if it's meant to be playful, I would hope that the person would say that they were just kidding and respond with whatever version of "gl hf" they want to use.
Anyway, people have "raged" on me before, calling me a bad player and such, but all those just roll off my back. However, it really bothers me when I'm just trying to have fun and people have to be so rude about it.
man, it's not tough. at the start of the game you either say gl hf gg, or gl hf, or gg, or gl gg, or hf, or gl, or gg, or gg hf, or a non-abbreviated version of either combination, or nothing. at the end of the game, you say gg, or gg wp if you actually feel like complimenting him. gg doesn't mean "well played", it means "I surrender, you won", nothing more. so before you leave, that's what you say.
anything else, especially any negative comments relating to your opponents playstyle, will be perceived as you whining, unless it is something explicitly positive. so just don't go there. follow these extremely simple instructions and you will never have any problems with anyone perceiving you as "bad manner" or a "rager", and if you're unable to follow these very simple instructions, perhaps the actual reason is that you do have a temper problem.
"Are you fucking kidding me? Did I really just lose 80 supply to a fucking noob-ass a+click Colossus ball and you lost a couple silly Zealots and are still at 200?! Really? Is the timing for Protoss that mindless that you look for that big unit on the screen, count to four, and then a+click the minimap! FUUUUUCK OIYUI!"
But I usually write, "lol, gg." This means I'm stunned at how badly I just got rofl'd.
Sometimes I write, "sigh, gg." This shows an genuine exasperation at how impossible it feels to win sometimes.
Sometimes I write, "gg," or "gg wp." This does not happen often, because at my level it rarely seems even. It is usually a complete stomping one way or the other. I either crush face, or get crushed. It is very rare that it is a truly engaged and equal match.
My brother has some of the funniest rage I've ever seen. I've actually cried, several times, with tears of hysteria. He is WAY over the top.
What's the matter now? Nowdays those letters are considered as a manner attitude, often compared to the hands you shake when you meet and play basketball for example, so if you don't write down those 4 letters right at start, you may be considered as a bad mannered ass hole. My opinion is that, in 2011, the "gl hf" and "gg" attitude is now something "stupid".
What do i mean by "stupid"? I mean that those 6 letters have totally lost their meaning. Saying "gl hf" can be justified in lan competitions, but most of the time when you're playing online it just looks like people are acting as robots, unable to say anything more than those letters, making the "contact" between players even more unhuman. So you can be considered as a "manner" player if you only chat with your opponent using "gl hf gg", which looks quite "stupid" to me. So many times when i don't reply "gl hf" and go for something else more "human", he would just call me a bad manner player. But seriously, if you're not "having fun", considering we're playing games, wouldn't it be better to just shut your computer and go for something else? Same for "good luck", if you say so, why call your opponent a rager if later he argues that you're a lucker?
Why am i writting this? I'm writting this part because i've noticed that more and more people are thinking quite the same when i get onto that topic, some are just bored of writting "gl hf" on and on, 15 times in a row, looking like a parrot when the other player just do the same. Even if i know that people are going to say "Huh but pros do that, so it's cool, so i do that" and "korean commentators shout GG at the end of every game and koreans are the best, so it's cool, so i do that", i wanted to get a global feeling on this point, so last poll:
So true. I've completely stopped saying glhf at the start of a game on ladder, I only say hf in tournaments. gg is reserved for games that truly deserve it (or in tournaments), and not every single random one. I have to laugh so hard every time someone messages me at the end of a game saying 'gg'. It's lost all meaning with the current way its being used.
Today i met this terran opponent twice in a row. The first game was on tal'darim where we both went for a fast expo, but i got a much earlier third, basically outmacroed him and just attackmoved in with a timing. He just says something along the lines of "i'm losing to a noob" or something. Which i'm fine with, i won, i didn't cheese or anything, i played the most straight up game there is, so i have no "insecurity" about the win, so it doesn't matter.
Now, the next game, i say glhf, he's silent. Then he does a push with like 2 maras a couple of marines and some scvs, i defend it but lose a tiny tad myself. I expand while i get 1 immortal as a power unit for my push, and the rest with gateway units, presure while expanding, right? Well, when i push him he obviously doesn't have a lot of units because his macro, as proven last game, is not the best. However, when i demolish his base he starts whining about going all-in, and how i can't do anything but winning with all-in pushes. One of the raxes at the start of the game was proxy.
He's proxy raxing me and whining about me all-inning(I wouldn't consider it an all-in for the reccord), and he wont bloody stop. He's not leaving the game, just keeps going on about how lame i am and blah blah.. Do other people think it's ok to act like that? Oh, and is 1immortal + 3 gateways worth of units an all-in after defending early presure and expanding at the same time?
To be honest this GG GL HF shit really bugs me. I get HF, its a game. The end goal is to have fun. If you want to be polite, wish some one fun and him to you. To hope the game will be good is also a show of politeness. Its this GL thing that bugs me though. Why would you want to wish your opponent LUCK!?! I don't want to lose because my opponent got lucky. I want to lose because he was better than me. I also don't want to win because I got lucky, that's just as bad as losing.
When people give that standard GLHF, I usually remain silent, saving my GGs for the end of the game. I will some times wish HF if I know the guy/am feeling in a good mood. The part that bugs me the most is those guys that do this,
Him: GLHFGG Me: *Silence* Him: No GG? Manners....
That shit gets me. To be honest, I personally don't want my opponent to have fun. I want to demolish and demoralize him with my absurdly good play and insane drops/micro/harass that he is on the edge of his seat the entire game going "HOW CAN I WIN THIS". Thats just me though =P
This is why I open my games with, GL HF DIAF. Because honestly, all those mean shit. I don't wish them good luck, and when I stomp them out they aren't going to "have fun", and DIAF makes them rage. So all 3 are equally retarded.
On April 15 2011 03:08 Owarida wrote: Why would you want to wish your opponent LUCK!?!
Why would you say to a waiter in a restaurant "May I please have a glass of water?" After all, it's his job to get you a glass of water, who cares if it pleases him to get you one!!
The answer is that it's polite to do so and communicates respect to the other person. You may be competing against your opponent in a game, but they're pretty much just like you, and if you're willing to be rude to an anonymous opponent, it doesn't say much about your opinion of yourself.
Edit: Anyone who needs it explained to them why they should be polite to strangers was most likely told one too many times by their mothers that they were a unique and special snowflake.
Good god, how can you overthink this stuff so hard? It's a manner thing, nobody cares if it really is a wish from the depths of your heart that your coworker's morning is good, you say good morning to him because thats what people do when they meet in the morning. glhf and gg are the same thing. I say glhf when a game starts and gg when I lose because it is considered polite and that's it. If I'm impressed with his play I'll add a "well played" or something. Edit: Of course it's fine to greet your opponent with anything else, but saying nothing is rude and that's not a SC2 thing, that's a society thing, you greet people when you encounter them.
On January 25 2011 04:34 parn wrote: Example Me: That's now 5 times in a row my protoss opponent go for proxy gates/cannons, is it school holiday or something? 5th protoss opponent : rage?
Proxy gate and cannon rushing... you could say ITS ALL THE RAGE. Bam.
I dont bother to write gl hf at the start unless my opponenet says it first, but even lately I dont always respond. I use to say it every game in bw, but that was ebcause there was a pregame lobby to chat in. I find it annoying to chat at the start of the game so I often will not respond now. I pretty much always gg at the end because it is what you do. It is part of ending a game. It does not mean "good game", it means "I surrender".
if i ever want to compliment my opponent for his play. it will take place after i lost and it will be in complete sentences. i like to use the kings English
i consider the "gl hf gg etc." to be comparable to the players of a football game shaking hands at the end.. just a show of good sportsmanship (or in this case e-sportsmanship)
What do i mean by "stupid"? I mean that those 6 letters have totally lost their meaning. Saying "gl hf" can be justified in lan competitions, but most of the time when you're playing online it just looks like people are acting as robots, unable to say anything more than those letters, making the "contact" between players even more unhuman. So you can be considered as a "manner" player if you only chat with your opponent using "gl hf gg", which looks quite "stupid" to me.
Personally, if the game wasn't good, even from my perspective, I find it hard to say "good game". If I believe that I've played well and been bested in skill at the end of a game, I type "gg" (However I will always type gg if I win and my opponent types gg first). If the opponent played well, but I didn't play well, I type "wp" and leave the game. If I was my opponent I would consider this bad manner, but I'm alright with it. I always open with "gl hf", and if their name rings a bell or I understand the specific reference I may make a joke/comment about it.
I don't really talk much to the opposing player, mostly because I'm trying to stay focused on my mid-game plan and not getting distracted by small talk. Also, I feel that common competitive drive when playing and don't always want to chat it up with my opponent.
The words themselves have not lost meaning, but the value that veteran Starcraft players attribute to the words has lessened, partly due to the wide appeal that Starcraft II has had in the general public and the less-mature/apathetic audience that popularity tends to drag in.
First off, your poll options are really weak since every single one of them contains at least two answers which do not exclude one another.
Your "is it school holiday or something?" is condescending and BM, it is a personal attack (even when they are in fact in school and it is a holiday. This alone would qualify you as a "rager".
Frustration is not a problem, if you just said "arggghh you're the 5th person to do this to me in a row, I don't know how to beat it", you would have just been frustrated and not BM. This tactic might even yield you a practice partner or whatever, if people say this sort of thing to me I usually offer to do the build another couple of times against them and try to give them some pointers.
I say "gl hf" to each of my opponents. I honestly wish them a nice game playing me, it's called sportsmanship. And hey, for all those "not wanting to wish their opponents luck": if you wish them luck, they get it, and you still beat them; it's a greater achievement, just like beating someone who uses maphack.
When an opponent successfully 6 pools me or whatever I still tell them "gg". They played better than me, they hopefully taught me something. Consider it a handshake after the game is over, a thanks for playing me and showing me a weakness in my build.
On April 15 2011 03:08 Owarida wrote: To be honest this GG GL HF shit really bugs me. I get HF, its a game. The end goal is to have fun. If you want to be polite, wish some one fun and him to you. To hope the game will be good is also a show of politeness. Its this GL thing that bugs me though. Why would you want to wish your opponent LUCK!?! I don't want to lose because my opponent got lucky.
Look, you're reading too much into it.
When you get introduced to somebody in real life, in most cultures you shake hands (or bow in some) and exchange common greetings. I've shaken hands with people I really, really dislike. I wished a "good day" to people I really, really dislike.
While you're doing that, you're not thinking anything like "why would I touch his hand and wrap my hand around his?" or "I don't really care if he has a good day". You just do it. Or alternatively, you refuse to shake hands and you offend the other person that will think you're anything from plain rude to a complete jackass, and rightfully so.
It's the same in Starcraft (and in a lot of sports in pre/post game as well).
It's a cultural/social norm, and a sportsmanship thing. You don't have to mean it. You just do it. And if you don't do it, you'll be considered rude, and rightfully so.
the whole gg thing reminds me of how we all used to line up and slap hands with the other team in a line in little league
"good game good game good game good game good game good game good game good game good game good game good game good game" until we got through all of them
Because seriously, it is... That's what I do after my probe split and control groups, while waiting for 50more minerals for my next probe...
But I really am not any kind of cheesy player, I love 'standard' longer games, and I really wish that my opponent has fun... Maybe a bit less of good luck, but whatever ^^
On April 15 2011 04:41 lurked wrote: I want the option: -"gl hf" is in my build order.
Because seriously, it is... That's what I do after my probe split and control groups, while waiting for 50more minerals for my next probe...
But I really am not any kind of cheesy player, I love 'standard' longer games, and I really wish that my opponent has fun... Maybe a bit less of good luck, but whatever ^^
might as well be polite during that time right? "glhf" is such a habit for me I consider it a part of my build order =P like it's so much a habit that I do it subconsciously. I also gg upon the end of the game. If I really feel like offensive gg'ing I use the term "checkmate" I don't think much of the real meaning of glhf and gg, it's just a tradition I like to follow
I dont say anything generally. I dont care for it. I say you too if they say something to me and gg if they gg. I dont gg myself and only do it if i really feel like it was a close game.
On April 15 2011 04:46 royal.cze wrote: I rage when people do dumb shit and wastes my time... i ladder to improve not play against some guy who masses planataries because day9 said to
This song is all i was thinking about the whole time i was reading the op.
Personally i usually don't talk much in games unless i know the person i am playing or I want to figure out why i lost. Saying gl hf means nothing now a days at all. I might/might not respond if someone says that to me. I have been called a lot of different things on b.net but i do not think that "rager" has been said to me once. I will only say gg at the end if i think it was actually a really fun or good game. If he does something crazy cool to me then i will say it for sure!
EPT
) and got to see Elky playing and improving the skills that will allow him to reach Korea some years later.
". Then it becames "good game", then "gg", then they started this well known team called "Good Game" where elky was GG1 Elky@dr (Denise Richard), and so on. Some other abbreviation were also here before, as "gl hf", but it looked more as "game" thing, people were having fun putting as much abbreviations as they could to make the opponent go "? xD" (hl gf - have love good fuck etc ...) then gl hf stayed and spread to the whole esport gaming world.
