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On January 08 2011 23:46 Arcanefrost wrote:
It's one of the biggest esports scenes since bw, and it will be the biggest scne ever relatively soon.
What I don't get is that people are claiming that SC2 is the biggest esport since BW but they aren't giving credit that BW is what makes the SC2 scene so big right now. Without BW, would the sc2 pro have the skill they have right now to try to "entertain" people? I certainly don't think so. You wouldn't have people like Day[9] giving his daily(also some of the popularity of sc2 is getting.) since he wouldn't have much info on the game also.
On topic: I think 500 people for the opening ceremony is not that bad. It's not like an MSL or OSL ceremony where people know their favorite's personality and attend to see what those awesome guys(firebathero for example) will do(trash talk) there.
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On January 08 2011 23:10 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +For every legally bought copy, you probably have 3 pirated ones in China ALONE (totally random number, but you get the point Im trying to make). I'm not saying people don't pirate the game. But it is crazy to think a game is only successful based on the ease of which it is pirated. It isn't like all games can't be pirated and they still fail. I just think there is no basis at all to say BW was somehow popular as an eSport because of pirated versions of the game? I mean it is just a crazy connection to make, and to me seems like it is irrelevant to the conversation. WoW is popular and that involves paying as you go. At the end of the day, people will find a way to get the money to get the game, but if they can get it free they will. This was reported also a while back anyway : With at least three million copies sold as of last count, StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty is doing just fine for itself, but that doesn't mean pirates aren't getting the game the old-fashioned, illegal way.
"According to TorrentFreak, a BitTorrent enthusiast site, StarCraft II has been illicitly downloaded via BitTorrent 2.3 million times. The download file's huge 7.19 GB size makes it the most data sent via BitTorrent for a single file -- 15.77 petabytes.Again, just seems completely baseless to say "SC2 isn't doing as well as an eSport because they game isn't as easily pirated as BW." Not when the game is selling like crazy/downloading like crazy. There are more than enough people who own SC2... Once again I go back to my point, it isn't about the number of people playing SC2, it is about getting a larger percentage of the current players to want to watch eSports from the people who already own the game, and number that keeps growing. This is where Blizzard could help. When you log into b.net it would be cool if there was a big link that said, "Watch IDRA vs. JINRO play in the GSL!" Then an article telling you where and when to see it. Trying to get the growing player base to watch the eSport is where the efforts should be put, the game itself is growing and selling perfectly fine.
I don't think anyone is saying that pirated copies were the only factors behind BW's success? Do you agree that it was at least partially responsible for it?
My first copy of BW was also a pirated version that one of my friends installed on my computer. A whole lot of my friends were playing BW and almost every single one of them had pirated versions. Many parents weren't willing to buy their kids BW because of its initial 18+ tag in Korea and also because of their general reluctance in buying video games for their kids. The fact that it was easy to get this game for "free" as well as the availability of LAN and pirated servers exposed many more people to BW and made it extremely popular.
Every PC Bangs had BW installed due to the cheap cost in doing so. The PC Bang culture developed partially thanks to BW's popularity and BW's popularity also benefited quite a bit from its availability in PC Bangs. Then the Korean eSports scene began to grow.
You bring up the fact SC2 is also being illegally downloaded, but those copies do not allow multiplayer, and campaigns by themselves do not keep people playing the game for very long, not to mention that SC2's campaign did not receive the highest praises to put it nicely.
I am by no means advocating pirating. I really am not. However, those pirated BW copies did definitely contribute to pioneering of BW's successful eSport scene in Korea.
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The link between SC2 succeeding only if BW succeeds was pretty weak. Although I'd like that to be the case, I don't think the article makes a strong enough case to suggest it. A lot of people from War 3 are also jumping onto SC2, and just because a lot of people jumping onto SC 2 that are good are BW players, let's remember that a lot of these players rarely if ever touch BW a lot as far as playing is concerned.
Meh. Just playing devil's advocate here.
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On January 09 2011 05:04 KingAce wrote:
If starcraft 2 succeeds in SKorea I will be very surprised.
From the beginning blizzard made many wrong decisions handling SC2. BW is a 10 year old proven game. SC2 is new but unbalanced, easier, less spectator worthy and unproven. In Korea I don't see how SC2 can just win the day over night. Also time is a factor, how long will blizz take to get SC2 to BW level? The safe route would have been making a BW 2 with better graphics and new units with small intelligent changes to game mechanic over time.
Blizzard went for different, but different doesn't mean better. And I enjoy watching SC2, but BW is more entertaining. It doesn't matter that SC2 is some months old...I got 2 options and one clears comes out on top. This is same mentality the Koreans have. Instead of trying to emulate the things BW did right, blizz tried to get creative, and I don't even see the originality.
In addition, I don't think it pleases Koreans for blizzard to push it's self into their culture like they're doing. Even if Blizz has IP rights, BW is a culture in Korea, they should handle the situation there delicately.
Lastly, BW had freedom. Blizzard right off the bat assumed SC2 would sell well, every one would love it, and is heavily dictating the game. No Lan support for one....etc.
Sc2 is the best rts since bw, and like it or not but sc2 is the future.
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On January 09 2011 07:50 Arcanefrost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 05:04 KingAce wrote:
If starcraft 2 succeeds in SKorea I will be very surprised.
From the beginning blizzard made many wrong decisions handling SC2. BW is a 10 year old proven game. SC2 is new but unbalanced, easier, less spectator worthy and unproven. In Korea I don't see how SC2 can just win the day over night. Also time is a factor, how long will blizz take to get SC2 to BW level? The safe route would have been making a BW 2 with better graphics and new units with small intelligent changes to game mechanic over time.
Blizzard went for different, but different doesn't mean better. And I enjoy watching SC2, but BW is more entertaining. It doesn't matter that SC2 is some months old...I got 2 options and one clears comes out on top. This is same mentality the Koreans have. Instead of trying to emulate the things BW did right, blizz tried to get creative, and I don't even see the originality.
In addition, I don't think it pleases Koreans for blizzard to push it's self into their culture like they're doing. Even if Blizz has IP rights, BW is a culture in Korea, they should handle the situation there delicately.
Lastly, BW had freedom. Blizzard right off the bat assumed SC2 would sell well, every one would love it, and is heavily dictating the game. No Lan support for one....etc. Sc2 is the best rts since bw, and like it or not but sc2 is the future.
That's an opinion at best. I enjoy watching both sc2 and BW matches, but as of right now, sc2 games are far and away less entertaining to watch (and I even paid for the vods/hq service for the gsl) than BW games because of all the one-basing and maybe 2-3 things going on at once as opposed to BW's massive maps with tons of bases and things happening everywhere at once. I watch an SC2 game by pros and it's not really all that far off from what I can do without playing nearly as much, except they know the more subtle timings and micro/macro a bit better. With BW, there's such a huge difference between an A-teamer and B-teamer, let alone someone who plays a lot more casually that it's just a lot more awe-inspiring to watch, as a casual player. I'm not saying that sc2 will never reach that same point, but it is my opinion that blizzard will need to change the game in some way with patches or expansions to get it there. Again, that is my opinion as a viewer and player of both games.
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On January 07 2011 15:04 QuothTheRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:47 supernovamaniac wrote:On January 07 2011 13:43 puppykiller wrote:
I agree with mega... its like they exscpet the readers to be dumb enough to think bw depends on sc2 just becuase they say it does. Wrong. If SC2 dies but BW lives, what will Blizzard try to do? Just let KeSPA run the tournaments? The end result is not guaranteed in this situation. However, Blizzard will take much more severe action if its league dies. For starters, Blizzard (Gretech) is already suing KeSPA, OGN, and MBC for copyright violations. I suppose it's possible that they could do more than that, but it's not as if Blizzard is currently being benevolent towards the professional BW scene. Another point that's worth some consideration is that Blizzard still has two expansion packs that it wants to release. If the SC2 competitive scene flounders sometime in the next year, pulling a huge "fuck you" revenge move would greatly damage their expansion pack sales in Korea. Some of that ill will might spill over and hurt their WoW subscription numbers, as well (though that's more speculative). At any rate, if at some point in the future Starcraft 2 is already dead in Korea, Blizzard has almost nothing to gain at that point by taking extra measures to kill BW, and they would probably damage the reputation of the company as well as future game sales in Korea. Bobby Kotick would have a fit!
Oh, they can pull some revenge jackassery and still sell millions. Well at least in America, we have CEOs and such making public statements outright mocking or taunting THEIR OWN CUSTOMERS and still turn a huge profit. Like a woman to an abusive boyfriend.
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On January 08 2011 22:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +WTF is wrong with some people in this thread? BW sold 9.5 million copies of the game. SOLD. BW's success was at a time when pirating software wasn't nearly as easy as it is now. It is crazy to think the game was popular because it was free/pirated? I bought a copy. My friends all bought copies.
People in this thread are coming up with crackpot theories that they have nothing to back it up with at all. For every legally bought copy, you probably have 3 pirated ones in China ALONE (totally random number, but you get the point Im trying to make). Its also a lot harder for someone who doesnt own SC2 to play it at a Pc bang as I understand, you never actually had to own BW if you had a pc cafe nearby... More work for SC2. I dont think the argument you are dismissing is as baseless as you seem to think it is, though I also dont think SC2 is gonna die in Korea anytime soon.
That's China, they pirate everything. 
But I do agree, that the current model for SC2 isn't very PC cafe friendly.
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for blizzard:
1) sc2 didnt have chat chanels, and in the patch 1.2 the chat channels are bad
2) sc2 = no lan
3) multicomand, auto mining, auto split
4) sc2 in korea is +18
5) you should try europe or north america
6) you can only play in 1 server
7) only 1 acount
8) ladder system sucks
9) you should try to pay some bw progamers to play sc2 show matchs
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On January 09 2011 05:48 vesicular wrote:
It's always better to have too few seats than too many. A room that seats 50 people that ends up having 75 jammed into it seems more impressive than a 5,000 seat arena that only has 500 in it. Really the is the only mistake GOM made. SC2 itself is fine.
This.
BW is an established scene with a monolithic organization replete with sponsors, employees, and skirted by a huge amount of fans. That said, there's really no reason to say that one cannot be a fan of BW and SC2. Those that think that BW fans MUST flock to SC2 within a year of the game's release in order for the game to be a success are painfully misinformed about human behavior and BW's history as an e-sport as well.
Brood War wasn't as popular barely five months after it's release as SC2 is now. Starcraft had TWO expansions (Insurrection and Retribution) that came before Brood War which more or less failed, and yet Brood War is still a resounding success. Nothing as monumental as BW is created slowly, and it never goes away slowly.
Anyone looking to pass that sort of judgement on SC2 really doesn't seem fit to make the decision, given a their lack of context.
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Agree. I never thought that way before.
Both should live and prosper.
Long live BW and SC2 going strong.
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On January 09 2011 08:02 Thermia wrote:
That's an opinion at best. I enjoy watching both sc2 and BW matches, but as of right now, sc2 games are far and away less entertaining to watch (and I even paid for the vods/hq service for the gsl) than BW games because of all the one-basing and maybe 2-3 things going on at once as opposed to BW's massive maps with tons of bases and things happening everywhere at once. I watch an SC2 game by pros and it's not really all that far off from what I can do without playing nearly as much, except they know the more subtle timings and micro/macro a bit better. With BW, there's such a huge difference between an A-teamer and B-teamer, let alone someone who plays a lot more casually that it's just a lot more awe-inspiring to watch, as a casual player. I'm not saying that sc2 will never reach that same point, but it is my opinion that blizzard will need to change the game in some way with patches or expansions to get it there. Again, that is my opinion as a viewer and player of both games.
Not going to respond to your point since it's been made about a billion times, but please stop qualifying stuff as 'opinion'. Of course it's his opinion, and of course it's your opinion. If we were looking for facts we'd go to liquipedia. Here on the forums we discuss opinions.
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On January 09 2011 05:48 vesicular wrote:
It's always better to have too few seats than too many. A room that seats 50 people that ends up having 75 jammed into it seems more impressive than a 5,000 seat arena that only has 500 in it. Really the is the only mistake GOM made. SC2 itself is fine.
Agreed, the opening wasn't any kind of special event either with any K-POP or big name players (e.g. Boxer, Nada). 500 live viewers is PLENTY, they just made the wrong choice in renting out the gymnasium.
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I was just in GOMTV live chat with koreans since i understand korean..
most were saying that sc2 is still very popular, but GSL just isn't. a few have mentioned that the new format is retarded and that GSL was only fun to watch at first, but now just watch online.
also just to cite statistics.. playxp.com/sc2 has similar number of threads/posts and people who vote everyday on sc2 than a couple months back..
I think we're just worried that sc2 might die because of one flop at the GSL gymnasium, sc2 is still very alive in korea and growing in my opinion
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I never understood die hard fans of either game, they seem to belive that one game must destroy the other. They can both co-exist(and live in harmony etc) . Other then the general theme and that they are both RTS games, they really dont have that much in common gameplay wise.
E: im a tard :<
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I've said it all along and I'll say it again.
You can't kill a game. You can't kill a fanbase. If someone where to shut off the Battle.net servers today for Brood War ICCUP would just end up with a bigger traffic load. People the players the fans that love the game will always love that game. So long as people play it, love it and enjoy it the game can't die. This goes for any game SC2 included.
I hate the term because it's so silly to think that Blizzard, Kespa, or anyone could do it. More importantly why can't they be side by side? I think that's the point they are trying to get across.
If either games where to just shut down the leagues it'd be horrid for everyone. No one wins if one dies. I mean unless you enjoy the suffering of others and gloating over others failures.
The only way to win, is to both play together.
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On January 09 2011 13:16 Ghost_Sniper wrote:
for blizzard:
1) sc2 didnt have chat chanels, and in the patch 1.2 the chat channels are bad
4) sc2 in korea is +18
8) ladder system sucks
9) you should try to pay some bw progamers to play sc2 show matchs
1) It's your opinion
4) It is not +18
8) your opinion
9)Kespa won't let them play SC2 showmatch
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.......Too many cheeser and fast game. GSL need to banned all close map and add big map in force people to play mid or late game. 6 pools, marines bunker rush, and cannon rush is lame to watch because even a bad player can execute that.
........ mid to late game is different when weak players fall short. You'll see how horrible most cheeser A class is at mid to late game compare to S class.
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The biggest mistake Blizzard made was GSL in Korea. If GSL was held in different cities in Europe/NA the crowd would have been much bigger. Just let the xenophobic, betting-scandal-shakened korean bw-scene alone(die?) and simultaniously offer the big names like Nada or Boxer contracts to play in GSL.
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On January 09 2011 08:02 Thermia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 07:50 Arcanefrost wrote:On January 09 2011 05:04 KingAce wrote:
If starcraft 2 succeeds in SKorea I will be very surprised.
From the beginning blizzard made many wrong decisions handling SC2. BW is a 10 year old proven game. SC2 is new but unbalanced, easier, less spectator worthy and unproven. In Korea I don't see how SC2 can just win the day over night. Also time is a factor, how long will blizz take to get SC2 to BW level? The safe route would have been making a BW 2 with better graphics and new units with small intelligent changes to game mechanic over time.
Blizzard went for different, but different doesn't mean better. And I enjoy watching SC2, but BW is more entertaining. It doesn't matter that SC2 is some months old...I got 2 options and one clears comes out on top. This is same mentality the Koreans have. Instead of trying to emulate the things BW did right, blizz tried to get creative, and I don't even see the originality.
In addition, I don't think it pleases Koreans for blizzard to push it's self into their culture like they're doing. Even if Blizz has IP rights, BW is a culture in Korea, they should handle the situation there delicately.
Lastly, BW had freedom. Blizzard right off the bat assumed SC2 would sell well, every one would love it, and is heavily dictating the game. No Lan support for one....etc. Sc2 is the best rts since bw, and like it or not but sc2 is the future. That's an opinion at best. I enjoy watching both sc2 and BW matches, but as of right now, sc2 games are far and away less entertaining to watch (and I even paid for the vods/hq service for the gsl) than BW games because of all the one-basing and maybe 2-3 things going on at once as opposed to BW's massive maps with tons of bases and things happening everywhere at once. I watch an SC2 game by pros and it's not really all that far off from what I can do without playing nearly as much, except they know the more subtle timings and micro/macro a bit better. With BW, there's such a huge difference between an A-teamer and B-teamer, let alone someone who plays a lot more casually that it's just a lot more awe-inspiring to watch, as a casual player. I'm not saying that sc2 will never reach that same point, but it is my opinion that blizzard will need to change the game in some way with patches or expansions to get it there. Again, that is my opinion as a viewer and player of both games.
That's simply an issue with the players. Right now, there are a lot of REALLY bad players in both Code S and Code A. As the new format starts to take effect, we're going to start seeing the better players rise to the top, and the worse players sink.
So far, the only super huge upset in Code S has been Fruitdealer in Up-and-Down matches, but even then, he still has 2 Bo3 matches he can prove himself in (then again, his player has been looking a lot weaker recently...just my opinion).
In a couple months, the GSL is going to be a lot more stable, and I'm sure that we'll start to see a few more macro matches. The new maps, that are coming SOON™ should also contribute to better games. Almost everyone in the GSL threads is enjoying games on Shakuras Plateau, and with more large maps, I'm guessing the matches will just get better and better.
Honestly, the skill difference necessary between BW and SC2 really is trivial. No one is mechanically perfect in SC2, or even close. Honestly, I think that as players get more comfortable in the long game, we'll start to see more multi-pronged attacks, and map-wide action. BoxeR vs. Hyperdub was a perfect example. People were insulting the observer, but honestly, the main problem was that there was simply too much action going on at once, and the communication between the observer and Tastosis was subpar at best.
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On January 09 2011 20:29 dnosrc wrote:
The biggest mistake Blizzard made was GSL in Korea. If GSL was held in different cities in Europe/NA the crowd would have been much bigger. Just let the xenophobic, betting-scandal-shakened korean bw-scene alone(die?) and simultaniously offer the big names like Nada or Boxer contracts to play in GSL.
I think that this is an excellent idea.
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EPT
