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It's simply because the other 2 races get's stomped if they don't make any kind of timed attack vs zerg that will have an impact on the zerg economy which is really early allready pumping out drones and their early tier being fairly cost effective ( more so then protoss imo , but that is another discussion ) .
To be honest if ur protoss and u go for a fast expansion build don't u expect urself to be vulnerable at least a bit !? . You really shouldn't be suprised if u go for an early hatchery build and ur opponent decides maximum aggresion build that u will lose a lot to the guy who goes for maximum aggression . Spine Crawlers are also the best early game unit errrmmm cannon but they are so good that they are like human towers in war 3 , which also were considered units ( lol ) .
Spine Crawlers shouldn't require only a spawning pool in the first place but an evolution chamber . It cost Protoss also a forge to start making cannons . Cannons and Spine crawlers are remotely around the same cost , difference being u can move Spine Crawlers .
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On December 24 2010 21:01 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 19:32 -orb- wrote:
You could say literally the exact same thing about protoss or terran...
It seems you're looking at this only from zerg's perspective.
Also it seems you're unfamiliar with the fact that zerglings are now faster than god and can counter attack extremely easily...
On some large maps speedlings can counterattack, kill all workers at one base and then be back to defend the attack before any damage was done (if they move out at the same time) or you can make a zealot and all those zerglings are now useless
The Master has spoken;).
He probably wasnt aware of the possibilty of just blocking the ramp;).
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On December 24 2010 21:07 Zacsafus wrote:
The problem isnt that zerg doesnt have an option to counter attack, its that their hatch first builds dont so terran and protoss have learnt to exploit this. Opting for the 11 pool 18 hatch build which is proven to be just as economical as a 15 hatch 14 pool allows the zerg to completely crush and bunker antics and take the momentum of the game in their favor. Even if you cant bust the terrans front just posing a presence will stop the terran from expanding without feeling he needs a huge army first. And if they dont wait until they have a huge army you are already in a position to punish him for moving down his ramp.
It is far from the truth that zerg cant counterattack, its just the current builds zergs are attempting to abuse aka. hatch first, cannot counter attack effectively but they do not really need to counter attack because they are already gaining an advantage in fast expanding, so in actual fact the pressure terran and protoss pile on is the only thing they can do to keep even as they cannot expand so fast and be so safe once zergs economy kicks in.
Not having early creep at the expo for a spine crawler is painful though. Marines are so strong versus slow lings and two rax pressure is really hard to hold off without a spine and with only one hatchery producing. Same thing with 14 gas 14 pool which one would expect to be the "safe" build.
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mmh I dont know I have my ling speed relatively soon even if I hatch first which I allmost allways do against terran. So I only have to worry about a few rines trying to get bunkers up with help of their SCV brethren. But that can ussually be stopped with a few drones.
Kinda think you are too greedy if you have probs with this early rine pressure.
Feels like if you expect it to come it isnt that hard to handle.
I do nonetheless hate these marine terrans;)
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On December 24 2010 21:12 Gigaudas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 21:07 Zacsafus wrote:
The problem isnt that zerg doesnt have an option to counter attack, its that their hatch first builds dont so terran and protoss have learnt to exploit this. Opting for the 11 pool 18 hatch build which is proven to be just as economical as a 15 hatch 14 pool allows the zerg to completely crush and bunker antics and take the momentum of the game in their favor. Even if you cant bust the terrans front just posing a presence will stop the terran from expanding without feeling he needs a huge army first. And if they dont wait until they have a huge army you are already in a position to punish him for moving down his ramp.
It is far from the truth that zerg cant counterattack, its just the current builds zergs are attempting to abuse aka. hatch first, cannot counter attack effectively but they do not really need to counter attack because they are already gaining an advantage in fast expanding, so in actual fact the pressure terran and protoss pile on is the only thing they can do to keep even as they cannot expand so fast and be so safe once zergs economy kicks in. Not having early creep at the expo for a spine crawler is painful though. Marines are so strong versus slow lings and two rax pressure is really hard to hold off without a spine and with only one hatchery producing. Same thing with 14 gas 14 pool which one would expect to be the "safe" build. The problem is the zerg arsenal of units IMO.The roach is outrun by most terran/protoss units until you get the speed upg.The banelings a very terrible replacement for the lurker and etc.
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In some ways I can understand what your saying with the whole zerg has little to no attack in the beginning. But, that only becomes what your starting position is. Are you going early macro i.e 15 hatch? Are you going 6 pool. It really all depends on the setup. And Lings are the fastest unit in early game. Though they are easily killed and can be micro'd, you can micro back. Not to mention the amount of larva/units you can make plus the fact that banelings are right around the corner. If you are having trouble holding off the early attacks I suggest you not fast expand. Zerg can always apply pressure, especially as I stated before, the ling is the fastest unit. And they are cheap!! You can run around their base and make them spend their money just like they do to you. So, no I don't feel that anything drastic will be done to the zerg in order to make them more valuble and attack-heavy in early game. Zerg has always been the race that you have to work your ass off and struggle to survive in the begining. But in mid/late game its the complete other way around.
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QQ I'm a Zerg and I have the strongest late game but I also want the strongest early game as well
I'd willingly give up my "strongest late game" if it meant having viable early-game attack opportunities. The "way the Zerg is supposed to be played" sucks, plain and simple.
A race should not force such a constricting playstyle on players.
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well at my own experience i can beat my friends that are 26xx(zerg) and 2xxx(random) diamond with my offrace terra in a TvZ but i cant win as often with my mainrace Z (iam about 17xxdia right now).
Its retarded - 3 well positioned marines deny all scouting and then you have like 20 different allins you can go for as terran and each allin requires the zerg to have the perfect counters on the field. And even if you got the pefect unit mix to defend an allin you still need good micro. Lets say you microed perfect and have 10 lings left you cant do shit with them maybe you can kill some rocks but you arent able to harm your opponent in any way.
There are some gimmicky strats that can apply a lot of pressure but once your opponent scouted them its basically a freewin for your opponent if he knows whats coming. Also many early allins are counterd by standard builds e.g. every toss that dies to a roach rush is horrible - even if you didnt see that coming you should have at least 2 stalkers ready and can kill the 5-7 roaches with decent micro and pulling ~6 probes and you should come out ahead after it.
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All you people saying that "LOL NO THOUGHT WAS PUT INTO ZERG DESIGN LOLOL" are just retarded sheep. Zerg early aggression would be literally unstoppable off double hatch, simply because of the way the larva mechanic works. Its also the same reason why units like mutas are not as cost effective as the counterparts in other races. When I make a stargate, I can only make 1 void ray every 60 (? not sure) seconds even if I have 100000 resources saved up. But once I make a Spire, the only limiting factor is the number of larva I have and the resources (mineral/gas) currently available. If mutas were too good as their cost, then muta rushes would simply be unstoppable, because of the production capacity that zergs have. Most competent zergs understand these concepts.Sure there may be some holes in ultra early game zerg defenses, but I dont buy this entire "lolol zerg cant attack" bullshit. If blizzard listened to your retards and made zerg an offensive race, they would surely compensate by nerfing your macro mechanics, and you will begin QQing again.
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On December 24 2010 19:32 -orb- wrote:
You could say literally the exact same thing about protoss or terran...
It seems you're looking at this only from zerg's perspective.
Also it seems you're unfamiliar with the fact that zerglings are now faster than god and can counter attack extremely easily...
On some large maps speedlings can counterattack, kill all workers at one base and then be back to defend the attack before any damage was done (if they move out at the same time)
Do you often leave your expansions entirely undefended? Because Zerglings are pretty bad at attacking things that can attack back. And good luck trying to snipe tech with Zerglings, as opposed to something that does damage like a Marine or Marauder drop. Which also, by the way, are able to get around that wall that will still be in place if your opponent is at all decent. Go ahead, attack a Zealot in a choke.
If you're going to QQ you might as well choose something that isn't a result of low skill.
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If you are having trouble holding off the early attacks I suggest you not fast expand. Zerg can always apply pressure, especially as I stated before, the ling is the fastest unit. And they are cheap!! You can run around their base and make them spend their money just like they do to you.
Im not having trouble with early attacks, but that isnt the point. I know how to defend, what Im talking about here isnt defending, its the fact that there is little else you can do than defend.
And I cant seem to run around a terran's base with lings, even though they are fast.
Mostly because just getting past the wall is a 700-350 investment in banelings, which is pretty gigantic in the early game.
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Yes but once again the topic is still the same. Protoss can 2 gate or 4 gate pressure or just send 3 stalkers at the begining of the match, where you can possibly have just 4 zerglings and mass droning if you didnt see this coming.
terran can 2 rax and put some pressure if theres close spawn positions in the map, plus some scvs to absorb dmg and throw down some bunkers.
YES zerg is allowed to drone so much, but, is that the only way to go? fast expanding or at least expand right after pool is a must for zerg nowadays, otherwise they will stomp you no matter what. Havent you never played against a noobie zerg that just takes the main with 2 spines and throws roach warren and lair? thats like getting a candy from a baby.
The problem is that speedlings do nothing against terran because of the wall off. Speedlings do nothing against protoss since theres a zealot guarding the entrance, and unless you want to waste 15 zerglings to go in, which i think no one did before, you cannot do anything.
Baneling bust is pretty bad if the opponent sees it comming, and it even leaves you worse than you did, cause you wasted units for nothing.
Roaches do nothing also in the early pressure. YES they can attack some protoss buildings if they forge+FE but you cannot destroy everything.
Is the "mass droning" an excuse for not being able to get fun at the begining of the matches? is a must to go muta everygame to be able to go throu that walloff of 2-4 mere units?? i think thats boring, and zerg is what i like.
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On December 24 2010 21:34 Piledriver wrote:
All you people saying that "LOL NO THOUGHT WAS PUT INTO ZERG DESIGN LOLOL" are just retarded sheep. Zerg early aggression would be literally unstoppable off double hatch, simply because of the way the larva mechanic works. Its also the same reason why units like mutas are not as cost effective as the counterparts in other races. When I make a stargate, I can only make 1 void ray every 60 (? not sure) seconds even if I have 100000 resources saved up. But once I make a Spire, the only limiting factor is the number of larva I have and the resources (mineral/gas) currently available. If mutas were too good as their cost, then muta rushes would simply be unstoppable, because of the production capacity that zergs have. Most competent zergs understand these concepts.Sure there may be some holes in ultra early game zerg defenses, but I dont buy this entire "lolol zerg cant attack" bullshit. If blizzard listened to your retards and made zerg an offensive race, they would surely compensate by nerfing your macro mechanics, and you will begin QQing again.
By the time you have a second hatch up and running it's not that early anymore. And Zerg tech is balanced by long build times and predictability.
And when you contradict yourself, by first saying that Zerg aggression would be too good if their units were good at attacking and then by saying that you don't buy that Zerg can't attack, you look like a fool. especially if you make sure to come across as an asshat in the first sentence.
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On December 24 2010 21:38 morimacil wrote:
And I cant seem to run around a terran's base with lings, even though they are fast.
Mostly because just getting past the wall is a 700-350 investment in banelings, which is pretty gigantic in the early game.
Err, each Baneling is 50/25, and it takes 5 to get through a depot. That's 250/125 in Banelings to get through the wall, unless they've walled with production buildings. 700/350 is 14 Banelings, way more than you should need just for the wall.
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Do you think like me thats its likely that terran and toss will use increasingly aggressive(some would even go as far as to say cheesy/abusive) openings against zerg, since they come at basically 0 risk of losing the game or getting put behind, but have a chance of crippling an unprepared zerg?
Yes, i absolutely believe that any early game attack made against zerg is perfect strategy at its best.
Do you think that this will be good for the game?
No i think this will just degrade the game untill heart of the swarm or legacy of the void. Effectively zerg are playing 3 quarters of a race where the only strategies that are effective come from the mid to late game.
Do you think it would be more interesting if the occasional cheese/counterattack were to happen in the early game from zerg, or do you think that zerg being cornered as the macro race is good and will make for interesting games?
I certainly hope that changes to the zerg race in the expansions will help them get in some more early game "cheesy" openings that can win the game.
Do you perhaps think that some form of aggression from zerg before T2 will be developped as time goes by?
We already have the kyrix zenith style baneling agression before lair but this can be defended fairly easily by getting A tank, or 4-5 sentries.
Or do you maybe think that Im blatantly wrong, and that a couple lings have great potential for backstabbing a terran or protoss player who is leaving his base almost defenseless in the earlyish game? Only against lesser skilled players. Zerg is an incomplete race atm due to blizzard design and short maps i hope it gets better but right now id rather shoot myself in the foot than play another game on ladder ;/ Just look at how much Ret struggles, he should switch imho.
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The only choice Zerg can make early game is when to build the spawning pool.
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You have lings,roaches and blings with queen and crawler for defense,what else you want for tier 1? Flying banelings?
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I don't know why the swarm is whining so much.
I think that T is attacking so hard and often in the beginning, because they are afraid of the late and midgame. As a T you realy have to be able to keep your production running, to have a chance against a fast remaxing Z.
I also don't see the problems with counterattacks, I would say I see that the swarm almost never sends in 10 speed lings to kick some scvs.
+ Everyone has seen these greedy zergs, who just expand all day long. A 2rax push against an too early expansion with a Z in "i wan't macrooo"-mode is working great.
i.m.o.: Zerg is not at its best level so far. And I don't think that one should "buff" and "nerf" in an naive way. "roaches to week? givem more dps and range" will effect the whole metagame. I don't want blizzard to play with the metagame.
Zerg screamed that tanks are i...a, blizzard nerfed it (probably right decision) but than zerg "discovered" how nice they can drop banes or lings on tanklines.
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On December 24 2010 10:54 FlamingTurd wrote:
Yea... leads back to the whole problem Z has of not doing enough damage per cost of unit. The stats all show increasingly lately Z is having problems, hopefully something will eventually be done about it. Sick of watching 80% tournaments won by T and the rest by P
yea its not like Zerg has won any major tournament like say, the GSL... oh wait a minute!
stop bullshitting
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On December 24 2010 15:47 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 11:05 Krejven wrote:On December 24 2010 10:54 FlamingTurd wrote:
Yea... leads back to the whole problem Z has of not doing enough damage per cost of unit. The stats all show increasingly lately Z is having problems, hopefully something will eventually be done about it. Sick of watching 80% tournaments won by T and the rest by P Yeah I also get sick that Terran got 66,66% of the GSL wins while Zerg got 0%. oh wait.... I just want to point out what a stupid, flawed argument this is. A. More terran players have advanced than zerg players (I believe) B. This is over a series of patch and balance changes. C. Terran players have made all 3 finals (as opposed to 2 zerg players) D. A sample pool of 3 series is pretty fucking awful for setting up a confidence interval. E. There are lots of more flaws, but come on terran players who are crying for imbalance - if you want to complain about it, use better examples than this. At least try to support your argument.
It was a stupid argument because it was a stupid statement.
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EPT
