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Zerg early aggression would be literally unstoppable off double hatch, simply because of the way the larva mechanic works.
Well it seems like in BW, early aggression was possible a lot more, but not unstoppable, if scouted, and the appropriate reaction was there.
If you take for example roaches in the beta: it wasnt impossible to defeat an early roach attack, but you did have to scout it, and respond appropriately. Ofc, the roaches caused a lot of other problems later in the game, but early game, it was an attack that was actually able to pressure someone who wasnt prepared. It would still fail miserably against marauders, stalkers, and immortals though.
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On December 24 2010 10:54 FlamingTurd wrote:
Yea... leads back to the whole problem Z has of not doing enough damage per cost of unit. The stats all show increasingly lately Z is having problems, hopefully something will eventually be done about it. Sick of watching 80% tournaments won by T and the rest by P
I'm not really sure where you draw those stats from, but Terrans have, at the moment, the worse tournament performance of all the races. In fact, the pro gamers around have already started complaining about it - as the so called "metagame" evolves, T are falling increasingly behind.
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On December 24 2010 22:00 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 10:54 FlamingTurd wrote:
Yea... leads back to the whole problem Z has of not doing enough damage per cost of unit. The stats all show increasingly lately Z is having problems, hopefully something will eventually be done about it. Sick of watching 80% tournaments won by T and the rest by P yea its not like Zerg has won any major tournament like say, the GSL... oh wait a minute! stop bullshitting
Thank god for stating that. Close the thread theres nothing wrong with Zerg. They won TWO GSLs !!!!!
When was the last time any Zerg won anything besides that ...
The discussion is not about results but how the game is actually being played.
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People should watch the build Trump did one and a half week ago in TvT where he went a super eco build, simulair to how most zerg want to play. His attitude was "This is how I like to play, I don't have to win I just don't have to loose".
Zerg by going an super eco build forces an reaction from his opponent. Either he can sit back and get rolled over by the zergs eco or he attempts to do damage so he can keep up.
A terran bunkerrush is not meant to kill the zerg, it's to hurt the economy. To force the zerg make units and potentially deny a expansion. Notice the difference between this and this topic. Here the author wants to bust (or burst :D ) through the terran wallin and attack his main yet this is not something any race can do easily. Terran against protoss -> forcefields, Protoss against terran -> hard to break through the wall, terran / protoss against zerg -> can only attempt to strike at his eco at the expansion because the zergs forces are superior (if it wasn't the terrans would not need to build bunkers or protoss having to cannonrush behind the mineralline).
If a terran goes 1 base why would you want to bust his ramp? Then you should go for the economy game where you outmacro him. If he goes early expansion? Woho we can attack without having to push up and ramp and through a wall.
People say that going a baneling bust is an "all in" (all in is a terrible word in a game where it's not over until the last building is gone). Well duhh.... it's an attempt to end the game right then and there. Should it be possible to make an attempt at ending the game without risking something? I would love to see a game where an early push from a terran where he goes an pretty early expansion and demolish a zerg main hatchery.
The strategy most zerg complain about now adays is the 2 raxx + scv push, it's just like baneling busts and other early pushes, it puts you behind in economy if it fails. Yet zerg wants to keep making drones and be safe, well you can't have it both ways.
In TvT (if we take the playstyle Trump used he forced his opponent to make a move, because if he didn't he would fall behind in macro. If zerg goes baneling bust and the terran hold it off, the zerg will be behind. If the terran goes a push with scvs and the zerg hold it, the terran will be behind. Most zergs when it comes to the 2 raxx push claim that it costs them so much eco to fend it off, but they don't realize how much eco it costs the terran.
You can't have the cookie and eat it at the same time.
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I didn't read the thread, but here's my take.
Why can't zerg put on early pressure? Because that's not how zergs play SC2.
Why does it happen in SCBW? Because the maps are bigger.
To explain:
Zergs go for macro openings. They try and get that second hard up asap in their natural and play for macro, defending when the pressure comes. The pressure almost always becomes because 1) It's effective and 2) There's no real impetus for T or P to go for a macro opening because they can 1 base pretty effectively.
In SCBW, the maps were bigger, early pressure was more difficult because it takes longer to get to the opponents base. They have time to go for a macro oriented opening, and then also get some units out to defend an early push.
You will in fact often see some pressure from zerg, like the 7RR. This is one base play. ZvP can also often be early pressure because typically zergs don't go for a totally macro opening (pool first or one base openings at high level).
Because terrans in SC2 can both macro up well, including while taking off SCVs, they can wall in, they can 1 base really effectively AND maps are small, putting on early pressure becomes viable, while it's difficult for zerg to counter because they would rather go for a macro opening, and if they don't, T has a nice wall anyway and can macro harder. This makes early pressure very effective for T, and leads to Z trying for a more macro game since they can't get an early advantage. A lot of this is due to the maps, and not due to the units themselves, and also due to the effectiveness of the terran 1 base strats and their ability to easily wall in. That's why ZvP is also different.
Don't blame the game/unit balance when it's more about the maps and T ability to macro and 1 base very effectively early on while locking themselves up when a Z decides to go for a macro opening.
Also with short distances, it's much easier for a terran to scout any early pressure from a Z, also making it less effective, especially when you consider how well bunkers can be used (since they end up being free if they don't get destroyed, although you lose a bit of econ when you have to make them).
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I'm always play only defensively and react to attacks until i have tier 3 and either Broodlords or Ultralisks, maybe you can put a bit pressure earlier with Mutalisks, but you cant really attack in my opinion.
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the new zerglings just aren't as good as the old ones. that changed Z a lot. I'd really like to see better zerglings again. (and less zergling-killer splash)
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been watching catz.root stream and there is plenty of opportunity to put on early aggression and its not like he only plays scrubs(been doing it myself lately as well). He does it all the fing time. So with that in mind it's simply up to the player wether he wants to put on early aggression or favor economy. Maybe not to the extent that a terran or protoss can 1base for days but still, you dont need to go fe every single game because "that's how zerg plays". Although an expansion within the first 6 minutes is necessary otherwise its getting a bit all in. So stop trying to use the game and how it's "supposed to play" as a crutch and actually go out there and try different things.
To answer op, there might be a lack in attacking ability for zerg early game but that lack is actually in units being used, there just aint that many(ling and bling and roach). But there is still plenty enough to actually get something done.
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i find alot of issues are the map releated quite a alot of them 3rd expo is hard to achive, forcing 2base play with denial of 3rd which zerg needs to macro out of the cost effectiveness of p/t units
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Speed lings and bainling busts are early attacks that are absolutely outragous to defend against as terran. To say you have no early counter attacks is kinda short sighted if you ask me. If a terran does do 5 rines/5 scv's why dont you have just 12 lings and a queen? Maybe Zerg is to preoccupied with power droning to notice the early "quasi" cheese bum rush coming in.. 1 spine crawler neutralizes this threat almost completely then You can counter with bainling/ling while he rushes to get tech units to deal with you. Because if you fast expanded like every other zerg your +1 base to him and doing well economically. We can discuss balance all day long. But Right now the only part of the game terran really shines is early game befor a max 200/200 army becuase of the easy ability for a zerg to max again quickly after an encounter. bainling/ling/muta is pretty standard comp for zerg and does well against pretty much ANYTHING a terran can play against zerg. It only gets worse the longer the game go's on due to zerg flying in 12-16 mutas raping your mineral line and expanding on an all ready large economic advantage.. I guess thats enough of my rant for now.
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On December 24 2010 22:39 Meldrath wrote:
Speed lings and bainling busts are early attacks that are absolutely outragous to defend against as terran. To say you have no early counter attacks is kinda short sighted if you ask me. If a terran does do 5 rines/5 scv's why dont you have just 12 lings and a queen? Maybe Zerg is to preoccupied with power droning to notice the early "quasi" cheese bum rush coming in.. 1 spine crawler neutralizes this threat almost completely then You can counter with bainling/ling while he rushes to get tech units to deal with you. Because if you fast expanded like every other zerg your +1 base to him and doing well economically. We can discuss balance all day long. But Right now the only part of the game terran really shines is early game befor a max 200/200 army becuase of the easy ability for a zerg to max again quickly after an encounter. bainling/ling/muta is pretty standard comp for zerg and does well against pretty much ANYTHING a terran can play against zerg. It only gets worse the longer the game go's on due to zerg flying in 12-16 mutas raping your mineral line and expanding on an all ready large economic advantage.. I guess thats enough of my rant for now.
you see the 12 lings + 1 crawler. you fall back. I spend all my larva on units. I am behind in drones and you have mules. So what am I supposed to do now ?.
Trying to counter-attack is pointless. Oh wasnt that the whole point of the discussion
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On December 24 2010 21:59 schI2ler wrote:
I think that T is attacking so hard and often in the beginning, because they are afraid of the late and midgame. As a T you realy have to be able to keep your production running, to have a chance against a fast remaxing Z.
Please stop.
The reason T are so aggressive at the start is because it wins them the game so often, it has nothing to do with them being afraid of a late game Z.
On topic:
I'm not sure if Blizzard intended for Zerg to be the reactionary race when they designed SC2, but it definitely doesn't feel like Zerg.
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On December 24 2010 22:44 smileyyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 22:39 Meldrath wrote:
Speed lings and bainling busts are early attacks that are absolutely outragous to defend against as terran. To say you have no early counter attacks is kinda short sighted if you ask me. If a terran does do 5 rines/5 scv's why dont you have just 12 lings and a queen? Maybe Zerg is to preoccupied with power droning to notice the early "quasi" cheese bum rush coming in.. 1 spine crawler neutralizes this threat almost completely then You can counter with bainling/ling while he rushes to get tech units to deal with you. Because if you fast expanded like every other zerg your +1 base to him and doing well economically. We can discuss balance all day long. But Right now the only part of the game terran really shines is early game befor a max 200/200 army becuase of the easy ability for a zerg to max again quickly after an encounter. bainling/ling/muta is pretty standard comp for zerg and does well against pretty much ANYTHING a terran can play against zerg. It only gets worse the longer the game go's on due to zerg flying in 12-16 mutas raping your mineral line and expanding on an all ready large economic advantage.. I guess thats enough of my rant for now. you see the 12 lings + 1 crawler. you fall back. I spend all my larva on units. I am behind in drones and you have mules. So what am I supposed to do now ?. Trying to counter-attack is pointless. Oh wasnt that the whole point of the discussion
Maybe you should not over react to an attack you know what it takes to stop 5 rines and 5 scv's if you fail to macro thats your problem not a terran problem.. he hurt him self just as bad taking 5 scv's with him as you did making army instead of drones. Its not all about what you had to do to defend it its about what the attack or lack of scv mining time cost him. Stop making narrow sighted sarcastic posts and think befor you speak.
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On December 24 2010 22:46 DizzyDrone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 21:59 schI2ler wrote:
I think that T is attacking so hard and often in the beginning, because they are afraid of the late and midgame. As a T you realy have to be able to keep your production running, to have a chance against a fast remaxing Z.
Please stop. The reason T are so aggressive at the start is because it wins them the game so often, it has nothing to do with them being afraid of a late game Z.
You both are right. Theres a TvZ, the game starts and the T sees a fast expand from zerg. then, what is his toughts?
1. I can play a long term game being aware of: muta baneling. speedling ultralisk. broodlords ultralisc speedlings.
2. I can go with 5 marines and 7 scvs while throwing mules to get my economy back and kill him "easier".
They fucking go to the early pressure because its easier and its a win. Same goes with protoss with 3 gate blink stalker 4 gate etc etc.
BIG MAPS PLEASE
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People that use GSL as an example need to realize that FD got super lucky. If you watched his sets you'd see that his opponents gave away free wins plenty of times. One was baneling bust and one was 6 pool, 2 were following a banshee harass that basically would have been easy wins had the Terrans followed up correctly, accompanying this is the crappy marine micro.
Nestea, well, I have no clue how this guy won. I'd have to agree with Idra on this one. If you watched season two, the only thing nestea delt with was crap Terrans and a bunch of all-ins.
Im also glad people are also realizing that zvp is just god awful.
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On December 24 2010 22:50 Red. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 22:46 DizzyDrone wrote:On December 24 2010 21:59 schI2ler wrote:
I think that T is attacking so hard and often in the beginning, because they are afraid of the late and midgame. As a T you realy have to be able to keep your production running, to have a chance against a fast remaxing Z.
Please stop. The reason T are so aggressive at the start is because it wins them the game so often, it has nothing to do with them being afraid of a late game Z. You both are right. Theres a TvZ, the game starts and the T sees a fast expand from zerg. then, what is his toughts? 1. I can play a long term game being aware of: muta baneling. speedling ultralisk. broodlords ultralisc speedlings. 2. I can go with 5 marines and 7 scvs while throwing mules to get my economy back and kill him "easier". They fucking go to the early pressure because its easier and its a win. Same goes with protoss with 3 gate blink stalker 4 gate etc etc. BIG MAPS PLEASE
The point isnt that zerg can be attakced though.
Its more that from the zerg side, the idea of "I can try to outmacro him or I can try to go and kill him" when scouting something like an early expo from the opponent doesnt really happen at all. Because the only real option is to outmacro him if he walled his ramp.
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There are ALLWAYS 3 ways to deal with a Fast expand regardless of race Becuase the hach/nexus/command center is a net loss for 2-3 minutes until it has paid for itself.
1. Early pressure. Early expand means less army you have to deal with pressure and he hopes to win befor your advantage can kick in.
2.Expand your self and prepare for a macro game.
3. Get some cute tech units and abuse your tech advantage.
If 1 or 3 happens to you and you lose. You failed to the weakness of your strat and build. Who's fault is that really?
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On December 24 2010 22:44 smileyyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 22:39 Meldrath wrote:
Speed lings and bainling busts are early attacks that are absolutely outragous to defend against as terran. To say you have no early counter attacks is kinda short sighted if you ask me. If a terran does do 5 rines/5 scv's why dont you have just 12 lings and a queen? Maybe Zerg is to preoccupied with power droning to notice the early "quasi" cheese bum rush coming in.. 1 spine crawler neutralizes this threat almost completely then You can counter with bainling/ling while he rushes to get tech units to deal with you. Because if you fast expanded like every other zerg your +1 base to him and doing well economically. We can discuss balance all day long. But Right now the only part of the game terran really shines is early game befor a max 200/200 army becuase of the easy ability for a zerg to max again quickly after an encounter. bainling/ling/muta is pretty standard comp for zerg and does well against pretty much ANYTHING a terran can play against zerg. It only gets worse the longer the game go's on due to zerg flying in 12-16 mutas raping your mineral line and expanding on an all ready large economic advantage.. I guess thats enough of my rant for now. you see the 12 lings + 1 crawler. you fall back. I spend all my larva on units. I am behind in drones and you have mules. So what am I supposed to do now ?. Trying to counter-attack is pointless. Oh wasnt that the whole point of the discussion
But this is not true.
The terran falls back, you make 2 injects/rounds of drones and you're ahead by 10 workers in no time. The T fake attack delayed you, yes, but zerg must stop acting like if they can't drone non stop to 70 drones "they're behind", that's just not true.
T can make 2 workers in 50 seconds while you can make 10, so the "omg i'm behind by 3 workers i'm dead" is a little excessive.
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There are ALLWAYS 3 ways to deal with a Fast expand regardless of race Becuase the hach/nexus/command center is a net loss for 2-3 minutes until it has paid for itself.
1. Early pressure. Early expand means less army you have to deal with pressure and he hopes to win befor your advantage can kick in.
2.Expand your self and prepare for a macro game.
3. Get some cute tech units and abuse your tech advantage.
If 1 or 3 happens to you and you lose. You failed to the weakness of your strat and build. Who's fault is that really?
You misunderstand, or you just didnt read.
This thread isnt about zerg expanding, and dying to early pressure.
This thread is about zerg being unable to do number 1 on your list to an opponent, at least before they reach T2.
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Attacking early sets the zerg back for several reasons:
First of all when you wanna attack you need units (obviously) and when youre training units you're not training drones, drones you need because zerg units are not cost efficient.
The other races are able to wall off so most of the time your attack won't do a shit unless you invest a lot in it aka you make banelings, which can't really be considered as early as bunker pushes or w/e.
A push that is not a bling bust has to come very early or the opponent will have walled off, and such early attacks set the zerg back quite much and are easy to fend off.
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EPT
