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Oleksandr
United States227 Posts
On December 25 2010 02:56 PandaBlunt wrote: Against Terran I always use the 11 Pool 18 Hatch w/ a 14/15 gas. It's super flexable. ^_^. Hopefully I contributed something useful. -Pandablunt Yeah, at the cost of economy. GG | ||
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Noev
United States1105 Posts
On December 24 2010 11:09 Subversion wrote: its because they can wall off a tiny choke on the high ground, so they can defend with very little. i don't think the importance of this can be understated, this really allows both protoss and terran to be able t defend with a few units, where as the zerg has to depend completely on attack units and numbers in order to stay safe in the early game, often at the sacrifice of economy which can set them back as the game goes on longer. as for the early pushes that terran players are doing right now i think its just a shift in the meta game and that as time passes zergs will learn the safe build to go verses terran that can hold this push without to much economy loss. | ||
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Oleksandr
United States227 Posts
On December 25 2010 05:21 Noev wrote: as for the early pushes that terran players are doing right now i think its just a shift in the meta game and that as time passes zergs will learn the safe build to go verses terran that can hold this push without to much economy loss. Yeah, same as when Zergs figured out a safe build versus reapers without heavy economy loss. Oh wait. | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
Thus they concluded moving out with their 4 to 8 early units is always a good idea as it slows zerg down tremendously. Unless the game changes in some drastic way via changes to zerg defense or terran/tosses ability to ealry pressure I doubt you'd see that change anytime soon. Just watch the Gisado games where IMMvP basically 2 rax's all the zerg out one by one. Which isn't a balance comment as much as just how effective really early pressure is, especially with the mostly small map sizes. | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
On December 25 2010 05:21 Noev wrote: i don't think the importance of this can be understated, this really allows both protoss and terran to be able t defend with a few units, where as the zerg has to depend completely on attack units and numbers in order to stay safe in the early game, often at the sacrifice of economy which can set them back as the game goes on longer. as for the early pushes that terran players are doing right now i think its just a shift in the meta game and that as time passes zergs will learn the safe build to go verses terran that can hold this push without to much economy loss. I think you misunderstand something. This thread isn't about holding off the pressure. Nor is it about counterattacking after early pressure. It's about wanting the Zerg to be able to apply pressure. Wanting the Zerg to be able to be aggressive early-game. Right now, this is not possible without going all-in. | ||
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Meldrath
United States620 Posts
On December 25 2010 05:24 Oleksandr wrote: Yeah, same as when Zergs figured out a safe build versus reapers without heavy economy loss. Oh wait. They nerfed it what else do you want? They also nerfed our early aggression options by making us have to get a supply depot befor a rax. I wouldnt count on to many more changes to terran at this point. Becuase the game is pretty balanced all ready. Only people who don't think so are zerg fan boys who wanna have them be supreme over all other races. Honestly Zergs do well in high end competition. You gotta ask your self if your having any problems with the race maybe its not the race maybe its you. every race wants something nerfed about the other races. Terrans want psistorm nerfed and ling/bainling/muta efficency nerfed. zerg wants lurkers back and hydra upgrades. zerg wants voidray nerfs on protoss and likely collo death ball nerfs on protoss. protoss wants rauders not to be able to stim protoss wants a stim nerf all together. The fact is many of these options wont even be touched by blizzard becuase nerfing 1 race throws a huge wrench in the works.. the trinity of balance all go's out of whack. That being said relax and play the game. | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
I don't think I need to say anything against that statement, anyone who has played the game knows it's complete bs. On your other argument that T and P can just move out with the first units they make, you should also consider that zerg have really fast really cheap units that come out 2 at a time and cost as much as a worker, so obviously you're gonna lose your marines and zealots if you just rush the first few to the zerg base, and after that even if you manage to defend the counter attack without taking too much damage you have given map control to the zerg. Sure zerg can't be as aggresive as T or P, but they can macro a lot better which is what they are ment to do. | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
You don't have to make it an all-in of course. Early roaches can pressure both Zerg and Terran pretty well. It's pretty well understood in ZvP, but a roach/ling/bling composition early game can put a lot of pressure onto a Terran (like Zenio does or NewDrug tried). | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On December 24 2010 10:54 FlamingTurd wrote: Yea... leads back to the whole problem Z has of not doing enough damage per cost of unit. The stats all show increasingly lately Z is having problems, hopefully something will eventually be done about it. Sick of watching 80% tournaments won by T and the rest by P What tourneys are you watching if you think that's the case? | ||
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freestalker
469 Posts
On December 24 2010 21:09 metalsonic wrote: Spine Crawlers shouldn't require only a spawning pool in the first place but an evolution chamber . It cost Protoss also a forge to start making cannons . Cannons and Spine crawlers are remotely around the same cost , difference being u can move Spine Crawlers . yeah, give spinecrawlers detection, air attack and sure. also, let zerg be able to build evo chamber before pool, and I have no problem with it. Oh, and let overlords drop creep since beginning of game. edit- don't forget to apply this to everything and we'll have terran and 2 tosses with different skins! gg. | ||
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TheUberMango
United States77 Posts
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Holes
Canada26 Posts
On December 24 2010 10:54 FlamingTurd wrote: Sick of watching 80% tournaments won by T and the rest by P GSL has had 2/3 zerg winners. A lot of those zerg hold off early all ins and end up winning, even after FE. On December 24 2010 10:57 Red. wrote: protoss have observers and terran has scans Good overlord placement, or tech like toss and get a changeling? Anyways, I think Zerg is perfectly fine to watch and play. Any Zerg that doesn't expect an early all in didn't scout properly, so they should be punished. I enjoy watching games where the Zerg gets attacked early, it usually shows you insane micro and sometimes you learn a new way to hold off some cheesy all in you've been getting raped on the ladder with. With Zerg's ability to get such an economic advantage, it should come with the greatest risk. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On December 25 2010 05:30 NicolBolas wrote: I think you misunderstand something. This thread isn't about holding off the pressure. Nor is it about counterattacking after early pressure. It's about wanting the Zerg to be able to apply pressure. Wanting the Zerg to be able to be aggressive early-game. Right now, this is not possible without going all-in. Well that might actually be true that the ramps have a lot to do with it, I imagine that if more ramps were scrap station sized for example, then early aggression from zerg would be more viable against an underdefended opponent, and moving out with your first few units just to force the zerg to make lings would actually be a little more of a risky play, without actually having to change any of the races directly. Sure zerg can't be as aggresive as T or P, but they can macro a lot better which is what they are ment to do. Again, I think you misunderstand the point of the thread. Probably because you didnt actually readi it  the idea is precisely to discuss if its good or not to have a race be meant to play a certain way, without other good options. | ||
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
With Zerg's ability to get such an economic advantage, it should come with the greatest risk. The idea isnt to have less risk as the zerg player. The idea is in fact to have slightly more risk for the other players. Not to make it so that other races cant attack zerg, but to make it so that both players have the opportunity to attack. Also, note that by doing early aggression, zerg players would pretty much be giving up the ability to get an economic advantage, because it goes both ways for zerg. You can either make almost all drones, or you can make almost all units, but not both. Currently, you dont really want to switch to making units before the very endgame, unless you have to, to defend. If attacking was a possibility, then due to zerg mechanics, it would always come at the cost of that economic advantage. | ||
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kidd
United States2848 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
if Z had an option of early aggression without all-in as well as having late game macro we'd be in a broken system. Indeed, if that was the case, we would be in a broken system. However, due to zerg larva mechanics, that wouldnt really be possible. What would however be possible with some slight adjustment (possibly just to the maps) would be for zerg to have the option of aggression, OR to macro. | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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Tritonus
Denmark125 Posts
Maybe if the queen had more hp/armor, but less damage output, we'd see an entirely different early game from zerg? Edit: Also, back in the beta when the Roach was only 1 food, you didn't have to commit as many minerals and larva to overlords as you do now, and as a result is was easier to power drones or units, and thus applying more safe pressure to your opponents. Early roach pushes were a lot more common. The problem was however, that when the late game arrived, there were simply too many roaches on the map for people to deal with it, and it was inevitable that they had to bump up their supply usage to 2. However, there never came a compensation for this early game "nerf" - as it was basically a change that was aimed at the late game. A logical response would have been to make larva inject a little faster or make the normal larva spawn pick up speed while under the effect of larva inject or something, to compensate for the extra larva and minerals that you use on overlords (which you subsequently can't use for drones/units). (while one can argue that the roach range buff was the response, but that is not making up for those extra larva lost that make it safer to expand instead of early pressure, because if your roaches dies, you're still screwed on larva). | ||
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Meldrath
United States620 Posts
I have 1 question Why is anyone bitching about zerg larva mechanics. what makes zerg hard is also what makes zerg good. They can make a F-ton of workers or a F-ton of fighting units. they can't do both all of the time. If they could it would be rather annoying right? People evolve the game evolves learn when you can power drone and when you cannot. protoss/zerg can max out an army faster then terran chrono/warpgates and inject larva are beasts if done properly. Terran does not have this luxury without a MILLION production buildings. What would you change about the zerg larva mechanics? can you suggest a valid fix that doesnt ruin the game? | ||
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