|
On December 24 2010 23:30 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +There are ALLWAYS 3 ways to deal with a Fast expand regardless of race Becuase the hach/nexus/command center is a net loss for 2-3 minutes until it has paid for itself.
1. Early pressure. Early expand means less army you have to deal with pressure and he hopes to win befor your advantage can kick in.
2.Expand your self and prepare for a macro game.
3. Get some cute tech units and abuse your tech advantage.
If 1 or 3 happens to you and you lose. You failed to the weakness of your strat and build. Who's fault is that really? You misunderstand, or you just didnt read. This thread isnt about zerg expanding, and dying to early pressure. This thread is about zerg being unable to do number 1 on your list to an opponent, at least before they reach T2.
If you can't pressure someone its a problem with your play not the race. If you die from early pressure you died from early pressure. adjust your strategy. Don't FE if you read early agression hold off and go 1 base roach or bainling/ling which does very well against barracks units from T. There are options only limited to the imagination of the player. You can't just say.. Oh well zerg can't put out early pressure becuase he only has speed lings and a few bainlings. thats bs. if anything the scariest thing that can happen to any race is have a group of bainlings roll into a group of marines then have a dozen or so lings run into the base and harass the mineral line.
|
On December 24 2010 23:30 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +There are ALLWAYS 3 ways to deal with a Fast expand regardless of race Becuase the hach/nexus/command center is a net loss for 2-3 minutes until it has paid for itself.
1. Early pressure. Early expand means less army you have to deal with pressure and he hopes to win befor your advantage can kick in.
2.Expand your self and prepare for a macro game.
3. Get some cute tech units and abuse your tech advantage.
If 1 or 3 happens to you and you lose. You failed to the weakness of your strat and build. Who's fault is that really? You misunderstand, or you just didnt read. This thread isnt about zerg expanding, and dying to early pressure. This thread is about zerg being unable to do number 1 on your list to an opponent, at least before they reach T2.
No, this thread is about zerg early expanding.
Zergs usually try and early expand. That means they can't pressure. The natural response of other races is to do one of the three things listed.
Hence zerg plays defensive.
Zerg can do #1, they just can't do #1 when they early expand, and they can't really do it when the opponent doesn't early expand (same as an opponent can't really do it to them if they don't early expand, but they do usually early expand).
|
I don't know, I beat protoss all the time with fast mass speedling off of 2 bases. Top 200 zerg, so if it works for me it should work for other people.
|
On December 25 2010 00:02 Newguy wrote:
I don't know, I beat protoss all the time with fast mass speedling off of 2 bases. Top 200 zerg, so if it works for me it should work for other people.
This hasn't to do anything with what the topic's about.
|
It costs a zerg 700minerlas and 350gas, at least, to be able to actually attack in a terran base, thats how much 14 banelings cost.
if anything the scariest thing that can happen to any race is have a group of bainlings roll into a group of marines then have a dozen or so lings run into the base and harass the mineral line.
The most frustrating thing is having a dozen banelings roll into some marines, and then having 20 lings unable to damage a base, because 2 marines, 2 SCVs, and a wall negate them completely.
|
On December 25 2010 00:05 morimacil wrote:
It costs a zerg 700minerlas and 350gas, at least, to be able to actually attack in a terran base, thats how much 14 banelings cost.
oh i could attack terran bases at the cost of 200/200 (not only talking about nydus here) and since they took so much faith in the wall it was a quick fight.
Zerg t2 is just so awesome as you get a trillion of options to attack. Seeing t2 tech from a zerg always means prepare for alot, but on the other not really as 98% of the zergs will only go for 2 things.
|
On December 24 2010 23:53 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 23:30 morimacil wrote:There are ALLWAYS 3 ways to deal with a Fast expand regardless of race Becuase the hach/nexus/command center is a net loss for 2-3 minutes until it has paid for itself.
1. Early pressure. Early expand means less army you have to deal with pressure and he hopes to win befor your advantage can kick in.
2.Expand your self and prepare for a macro game.
3. Get some cute tech units and abuse your tech advantage.
If 1 or 3 happens to you and you lose. You failed to the weakness of your strat and build. Who's fault is that really? You misunderstand, or you just didnt read. This thread isnt about zerg expanding, and dying to early pressure. This thread is about zerg being unable to do number 1 on your list to an opponent, at least before they reach T2. No, this thread is about zerg early expanding. Zergs usually try and early expand. That means they can't pressure. The natural response of other races is to do one of the three things listed. Hence zerg plays defensive. Zerg can do #1, they just can't do #1 when they early expand, and they can't really do it when the opponent doesn't early expand (same as an opponent can't really do it to them if they don't early expand, but they do usually early expand).
No? This thread is about the authors thoughts on how hard it is for a zerg to put pressure on a terran and protoss main.
The fun thing is how zerg talk about terrans going fastexpansion and cant do anything about it due to ramp and wall. Well newsflash, there are most of the time no ramps to the expansion nor do they usually have a full wall defending it. Sure you might not be able to put pressure on his main but the expansion is not inside the main, its outside. (except a few maps where its behind the main)
|
What I dont get is that you say that putting early pressure with 5 marines and 5 scv's causes no damage to the Terran?
I play Protoss myself but isn't if obvious that if he pulls them off the line and the attack fails the Terran caused massive damage to his economy. The terran or protoss has to do damage with their early pressure if they go for 1 base or they will be behind.
And the way I see it it wouldn't be good if a zerg could fast expand and put pressure on a 1 basing zerg or toss, if a zerg goes an in base hatch he should have enough larvea to get blings to bust and put early pressure. You can't expect to have the best of 2 sides (fast expand and early pressure) Like a terran or toss makes offers to pressure early so does zerg to expand early.
|
On December 24 2010 23:53 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 23:30 morimacil wrote:There are ALLWAYS 3 ways to deal with a Fast expand regardless of race Becuase the hach/nexus/command center is a net loss for 2-3 minutes until it has paid for itself.
1. Early pressure. Early expand means less army you have to deal with pressure and he hopes to win befor your advantage can kick in.
2.Expand your self and prepare for a macro game.
3. Get some cute tech units and abuse your tech advantage.
If 1 or 3 happens to you and you lose. You failed to the weakness of your strat and build. Who's fault is that really? You misunderstand, or you just didnt read. This thread isnt about zerg expanding, and dying to early pressure. This thread is about zerg being unable to do number 1 on your list to an opponent, at least before they reach T2. No, this thread is about zerg early expanding. Zergs usually try and early expand. That means they can't pressure. The natural response of other races is to do one of the three things listed. Hence zerg plays defensive. Zerg can do #1, they just can't do #1 when they early expand, and they can't really do it when the opponent doesn't early expand (same as an opponent can't really do it to them if they don't early expand, but they do usually early expand).
Zergs can't do #1 without going all-in. Baneling busts are all-in. 7RR causes substantial economic damage to the Zerg. The Zerg have no ability to pressure their opponents early without going all-in.
The simple fact is that the Zerg need the larva from a second Hatchery. Whether it's in-base or at the natural, the Zerg have to throw one down, or they are effectively screwed.
That's 300+ minerals that a Zerg player must spend early-game. That substantially inhibits their ability to apply pressure, forcing them to play defensively. Add to that the simple fact that Terrans and Protoss can easily defend themselves from the humble Zergling thanks to wall-ins, and the Zerg are effectively screwed out of being able to do anything early game that isn't all-in.
On December 25 2010 00:17 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 00:05 morimacil wrote:
It costs a zerg 700minerlas and 350gas, at least, to be able to actually attack in a terran base, thats how much 14 banelings cost.
oh i could attack terran bases at the cost of 200/200 (not only talking about nydus here) and since they took so much faith in the wall it was a quick fight. Zerg t2 is just so awesome as you get a trillion of options to attack. Seeing t2 tech from a zerg always means prepare for alot, but on the other not really as 98% of the zergs will only go for 2 things.
I don't care that Zerg T2 is awesome (and I don't agree that it is. It is effective, unlike Tier 1, but far from awesome). I'd give up an "awesome" Tier 2 to get a halfway-decent Tier 1 and the ability to apply early pressure.
The fun thing is how zerg talk about terrans going fastexpansion and cant do anything about it due to ramp and wall. Well newsflash, there are most of the time no ramps to the expansion nor do they usually have a full wall defending it. Sure you might not be able to put pressure on his main but the expansion is not inside the main, its outside. (except a few maps where its behind the main)
Terrans build their CC in-base, behind the wall. When the CC moves out, they also move Marines out to secure it. Thanks to the general crappiness of Zerg Tier 1, there isn't much you can do about it without cutting Drone production a lot.
Also, if the Terran does take his expansion, and you don't have your expo up already, you've lost.
|
The fun thing is how zerg talk about terrans going fastexpansion and cant do anything about it due to ramp and wall. Well newsflash, there are most of the time no ramps to the expansion nor do they usually have a full wall defending it. Sure you might not be able to put pressure on his main but the expansion is not inside the main, its outside. (except a few maps where its behind the main)
matalopolis and xel naga caverns.
thats the 2 maps in the current map pool where terran or toss cant easily wall off the natural. I wouldnt call that "most of the maps"
"And the way I see it it wouldn't be good if a zerg could fast expand and put pressure on a 1 basing zerg or toss, if a zerg goes an in base hatch he should have enough larvea to get blings to bust and put early pressure."
You dont actually get more larva with an in-base hatch than you do with a hatch at the expo. its the same amount.
I wouldnt call bling bust "early pressure". Its more like an all-in, because if a terran walls off properly (no extra cost, just have to plan it out a little), then it costs you 700-350 to get in and then you have lings, and can start pressure. But since it costs you over 1k ressources just to get into his base, you dont have the option to retreat at minimal cost, you have to go in, and you have to do tons of damage. Thats not pressure, thats an all-in.
oh i could attack terran bases at the cost of 200/200 (not only talking about nydus here) and since they took so much faith in the wall it was a quick fight.
Zerg t2 is just so awesome as you get a trillion of options to attack. Seeing t2 tech from a zerg always means prepare for alot, but on the other not really as 98% of the zergs will only go for 2 things.
Yes, thats at lair tech. I specifically mention in the OP: "before T2". Once you get at lari tech, you have nydus, mutas, hydras, speed roaches, drops, and so on, the opponent is probably trying to get a third, tons of stuff you can do to pressure or harrass or attack. At T3 too.
The whole point is, before T2, your opponent is free to have as few defenses as he wants, as long as he places his buildings in a walloff, and he is safe from anything except an easily scoutable all-in.
|
Wow. this thread is all over the place.
The ramps on all the maps are def. one issue. If we are talking about pressure a main(not a natural) it is sorta insane how easy it really is for terran and toss to hold off a zerg 1 base push. It is easy to scout so you know it is coming and if you defend it Zerg is pretty much done, gg.
However I have had some success with 1 base zerg play and it usually is after I get early pressure(perhaps cannoned, or bunkered etc) and my opponent expands thinking I'm going to try to macro. But it has to be where they expand thinking I will too and I don't usually, so it just works as an element of surprise it isn't a good option each game.
The real problem I find with the 1 base attacking deal is the threat of air. I think Zerg could actually do a really nice 1 base ling/roach army with say a +1 timing except you are totally screwed if you get there and 1 banshee pops or 1 void ray. Not only will the attack not work, but then you lose everything trying to retreat back to your base cause the roaches are so damn slow in t1.
I always wonder what the game would be like if hydras were a t1 75/25 unit like in bw with the range and speed upgrades(would def be nerfed of course), and the roach was a t2 unit that was made a bit bulkier/beefier sorta on the spectrum of an immortal or tank. Obviously it would fundamentally change the game, but I just keep going back to my biggest problem with my zerg play being stuck in the early or mid game away from my base far from my queens and air showing up. And it is just really tough to scout at times.
Personally, I'd love to see roach speed upgrade available at T1. Stim is available at t1.. (I also believe blink and charge should be cheaper and easier to get faster for the record). If that were the case you could do more t1 attacking cause you could hit and run a bit more and if it didnt work you wouldn't lose everything. That to me would be the simple change that would allow more t1 attacking options, you could also reinforce much faster.
|
theres nothing different between SC2 and SC1 in regards to zerg early pressure, in fact you have more options in SC2 by far than u did in SC1. imo be grateful, each race has strengths weaknesses.
its not part of your races strong part. instead of crying imbalance maybe learn how the game is supposed to be played. you think blizz just inadvertently forgot?
|
No, this thread is about zerg early expanding.
Zergs usually try and early expand. That means they can't pressure. The natural response of other races is to do one of the three things listed.
Hence zerg plays defensive.
Zerg can do #1, they just can't do #1 when they early expand, and they can't really do it when the opponent doesn't early expand (same as an opponent can't really do it to them if they don't early expand, but they do usually early expand).
Please read the thread topic please.
Zerg cannot do #1 when they don't early expand. The production rate of one hatchery is laughable. 1 Hatch zerg does not have the production capability to apply any early pressure. Throwing down a second hatch in main might, but even then, why not just put it at your expo? No advantage comes from staying one base.
Also, T and P can be just aggressive vs a 1 base zerg because the zerg lacks larva. And If the Z hatches in main, the ramp will not prove any more of an advantage. It just makes containment that much easier.
|
Perhaps it is easier for non zerg players to understand why the second hatch has to be built if they try to think of it as 2 barracks/2 gateways instead of a CC/nexus.
|
On December 25 2010 01:15 PhiliBiRD wrote:
theres nothing different between SC2 and SC1 in regards to zerg early pressure, in fact you have more options in SC2 by far than u did in SC1. imo be grateful, each race has strengths weaknesses.
its not part of your races strong part. instead of crying imbalance maybe learn how the game is supposed to be played. you think blizz just inadvertently forgot?
Im not crying imbalance.
Im asking for other player's opinions on if they think its a good thing that there is essentially "a way the game is supposed to be played" to put it in your words, instead of players having more freedom to choose what they want to do (such as attack, for example).
|
I think an important thing most people miss is that for zerg the expansion aint about economy but rather to get higher production of everything.
BUT the problem I would say is that zerg players are greedy, they think that they should be able to do nothing but drones and still hold off an early attack where a terran pulls scvs. People claim that 10 lings and a spinecrawler is alot, but they don't consider the fact how much of the terrans economy goes into the push.
Going an economy game that zergs like is bound to be weak against early attacks but that is a risk you take. You trade early game security for macro later into the game.
It seems that zergs only can see black or white: I either go macro with making as few attacking units as possible or I do an All in.
|
On December 25 2010 00:05 morimacil wrote:It costs a zerg 700minerlas and 350gas, at least, to be able to actually attack in a terran base, thats how much 14 banelings cost. Show nested quote +if anything the scariest thing that can happen to any race is have a group of bainlings roll into a group of marines then have a dozen or so lings run into the base and harass the mineral line. The most frustrating thing is having a dozen banelings roll into some marines, and then having 20 lings unable to damage a base, because 2 marines, 2 SCVs, and a wall negate them completely.
If it actually happened that way, reinforce with more lings turn a few of those into bainlings and bust the wall down. 2 rines will NOT be able to stop bainlings from hitting the depot or what have you. I have never seen 14 well used bainlings NOT get access to a terran base. UNLESS the terran saw it coming a long way in advance via scouting and built additonal stuctures to reinforce the wall off. You claim you need an extra hachery? really? Is a queen not basically an extra hacherty.. 150 minerals... is alot less then 300. Bottom line is your siting worst case scenario's not the common way thing's go in a game.
|
ever seen dimaga or madfrog play?
(i recommend them if you havent, theyre two most entertaining foreign zergs to watch)
This notion that zergs cant counterattack is false.
The zerg race have some of the best units in the game to counter attack with.
roaches speedlings mutalisks do i need to say more?
It depends on your composition as zerg tho, if you use the slower parts of Z its no wonder you find it hard to counter attack.
|
On December 25 2010 00:17 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 00:05 morimacil wrote:
It costs a zerg 700minerlas and 350gas, at least, to be able to actually attack in a terran base, thats how much 14 banelings cost.
oh i could attack terran bases at the cost of 200/200 (not only talking about nydus here) and since they took so much faith in the wall it was a quick fight. Zerg t2 is just so awesome as you get a trillion of options to attack. Seeing t2 tech from a zerg always means prepare for alot, but on the other not really as 98% of the zergs will only go for 2 things.
There is so much fail here I don't know where to begin how about the lack of a coherent thought?
|
Bring back lurkers  haha. Z is really open early game, but thats half the fun of playing Z. Once you break the contain it's really easy IMHO to get your econ up and B-ling bust your way to an easy win.
Against Terran I always use the 11 Pool 18 Hatch w/ a 14/15 gas. It's super flexable. ^_^.
Hopefully I contributed something useful.
-Pandablunt
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
