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On December 25 2010 08:00 Meldrath wrote:
I have 1 question Why is anyone bitching about zerg larva mechanics. what makes zerg hard is also what makes zerg good. They can make a F-ton of workers or a F-ton of fighting units. they can't do both all of the time. If they could it would be rather annoying right? People evolve the game evolves learn when you can power drone and when you cannot. protoss/zerg can max out an army faster then terran chrono/warpgates and inject larva are beasts if done properly. Terran does not have this luxury without a MILLION production buildings.
What would you change about the zerg larva mechanics? can you suggest a valid fix that doesnt ruin the game?
Yeah sure, that's the upside of the larva mechanic, but that's late game you're talking about. The OP is asking whether it's good or bad FOR THE GAME that Zerg can't be as aggressive early on.
I'm not saying it's unbalanced, but the larva mechanic is without a doubt forcing ZvT or ZvP matches into being more streamlined, because T and P knows that they have a better chance of winning in the early game than in the late game VS a good zerg. If Zerg had the ability to chose to either macro OR be early aggressive, then we'd probably see more variation in the games, and not so many marine/scv all in's.
If they tweaked something that made it so that zerg would be more evenly powerful over the course of a game, then it would be a different story than the current.
It's not about balance, it's the question about wether it's more or less interesting, and if it makes SC2 a better or a worse game.
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On December 25 2010 07:54 Tritonus wrote:
Edit: Also, back in the beta when the Roach was only 1 food, you didn't have to commit as many minerals and larva to overlords as you do now, and as a result is was easier to power drones or units, and thus applying more safe pressure to your opponents. Early roach pushes were a lot more common.
The problem was however, that when the late game arrived, there were simply too many roaches on the map for people to deal with it, and it was inevitable that they had to bump up their supply usage to 2.
However, there never came a compensation for this early game "nerf" - as it was basically a change that was aimed at the late game. A logical response would have been to make larva inject a little faster or make the normal larva spawn pick up speed while under the effect of larva inject or something, to compensate for the extra larva and minerals that you use on overlords (which you subsequently can't use for drones/units).
(while one can argue that the roach range buff was the response, but that is not making up for those extra larva lost that make it safer to expand instead of early pressure, because if your roaches dies, you're still screwed on larva).
This is actually really fallacious logic. You get more larva with 4 range Roaches than with 3 range Roaches because you need less Roaches to have an army of equal power, and can spend the larva on Drones that you would have spent on Roaches if they hadn't been buffed.
On December 25 2010 05:09 Oleksandr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 02:56 PandaBlunt wrote:
Against Terran I always use the 11 Pool 18 Hatch w/ a 14/15 gas. It's super flexable. ^_^.
Hopefully I contributed something useful.
-Pandablunt Yeah, at the cost of economy. GG
You should try actually knowing what you're talking about before you post. It's really helpful.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173430
11 Pool 18 Hatch is super flexible and safe, and sacrifices very little economy. The more you know.
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On December 25 2010 06:20 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 05:30 NicolBolas wrote:On December 25 2010 05:21 Noev wrote:On December 24 2010 11:09 Subversion wrote:
its because they can wall off a tiny choke on the high ground, so they can defend with very little. i don't think the importance of this can be understated, this really allows both protoss and terran to be able t defend with a few units, where as the zerg has to depend completely on attack units and numbers in order to stay safe in the early game, often at the sacrifice of economy which can set them back as the game goes on longer. as for the early pushes that terran players are doing right now i think its just a shift in the meta game and that as time passes zergs will learn the safe build to go verses terran that can hold this push without to much economy loss. I think you misunderstand something. This thread isn't about holding off the pressure. Nor is it about counterattacking after early pressure. It's about wanting the Zerg to be able to apply pressure. Wanting the Zerg to be able to be aggressive early-game. Right now, this is not possible without going all-in. Well that might actually be true that the ramps have a lot to do with it, I imagine that if more ramps were scrap station sized for example, then early aggression from zerg would be more viable against an underdefended opponent, and moving out with your first few units just to force the zerg to make lings would actually be a little more of a risky play, without actually having to change any of the races directly.
This basically only applies to ling run-arounds, which are complete bullshit as the only defense is a good partial wall-off.
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WoW, thxs Tritonus, glad to see one person so far managed to get the point I was trying to get across. Judging by most other responses, I gess I actually suck at putting my thoughts into a clearly understandable post though 
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There are many other viable strategies than just a super early hatch. People need to start trying other Zerg openings instead of this 14/14 or whatever the exact numbers are. Blizzard did not make a game where Zerg only has one possible opening with a possibly to win. Experiment please.
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On December 25 2010 09:38 vict1019 wrote:
There are many other viable strategies than just a super early hatch. People need to start trying other Zerg openings instead of this 14/14 or whatever the exact numbers are. Blizzard did not make a game where Zerg only has one possible opening with a possibly to win. Experiment please.
Personally, everytime I try and refine a 1-base zerg build it inevitably ends to ''so if I just make another hatchery in my base at that point...'' which slowly becomes ''might as well put it at my natural''.
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On December 25 2010 05:30 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 05:21 Noev wrote:On December 24 2010 11:09 Subversion wrote:
its because they can wall off a tiny choke on the high ground, so they can defend with very little. i don't think the importance of this can be understated, this really allows both protoss and terran to be able t defend with a few units, where as the zerg has to depend completely on attack units and numbers in order to stay safe in the early game, often at the sacrifice of economy which can set them back as the game goes on longer. as for the early pushes that terran players are doing right now i think its just a shift in the meta game and that as time passes zergs will learn the safe build to go verses terran that can hold this push without to much economy loss. I think you misunderstand something. This thread isn't about holding off the pressure. Nor is it about counterattacking after early pressure. It's about wanting the Zerg to be able to apply pressure. Wanting the Zerg to be able to be aggressive early-game. Right now, this is not possible without going all-in.
I think this isn't true. Most zerg players are conditionned by nestea or idra. They think if they don't have 3 bases and 70 drones at the 8 minute mark they are behind (exageration here, but the point stand)
Most zerg players think going a build like 11 pool 18 hatch is allin (lol) or put them a lot behind in eco (haha). Where most other races fast expo timing is around 35 food.
Yeah, staying on one base to 20-30 food is less economical than a 14hatch/14pool. But it's far from being an allin. It's really a misconception, I think zerg players should play terran or toss to have a feel of their macro timings. Then realise that a zerg will have, most of the time, 20 more workers than a terran or 10-15 more workers than a protoss at the 8 minute mark when they do 14h/14p. It's nearly an econ cheese. I agree this is the best, most rounded build, but if you want to be more agressive, perhaps you should stop wanting to 14h/14p at the same time ?
You have to balance both. Players like Kyrix or Fruitdealer are showing that a delayed expand with a lot of aggression is possible. But the keyword is delayed expand. Zerg can make something like what, 25-35 drones in 3 minutes with 2 hatchs and 2 queens ? They are very flexible and can recover very fast from an aggressive opening.
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On December 25 2010 12:18 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 05:30 NicolBolas wrote:On December 25 2010 05:21 Noev wrote:On December 24 2010 11:09 Subversion wrote:
its because they can wall off a tiny choke on the high ground, so they can defend with very little. i don't think the importance of this can be understated, this really allows both protoss and terran to be able t defend with a few units, where as the zerg has to depend completely on attack units and numbers in order to stay safe in the early game, often at the sacrifice of economy which can set them back as the game goes on longer. as for the early pushes that terran players are doing right now i think its just a shift in the meta game and that as time passes zergs will learn the safe build to go verses terran that can hold this push without to much economy loss. I think you misunderstand something. This thread isn't about holding off the pressure. Nor is it about counterattacking after early pressure. It's about wanting the Zerg to be able to apply pressure. Wanting the Zerg to be able to be aggressive early-game. Right now, this is not possible without going all-in. I think this isn't true. Most zerg players are conditionned by nestea or idra. They think if they don't have 3 bases and 70 drones at the 8 minute mark they are behind (exageration here, but the point stand) Most zerg players think going a build like 11 pool 18 hatch is allin (lol) or put them a lot behind in eco (haha). Where most other races fast expo timing is around 35 food. Yeah, staying on one base to 20-30 food is less economical than a 14hatch/14pool. But it's far from being an allin. It's really a misconception, I think zerg players should play terran or toss to have a feel of their macro timings. Then realise that a zerg will have, most of the time, 20 more workers than a terran or 10-15 more workers than a protoss at the 8 minute mark when they do 14h/14p. It's nearly an econ cheese. I agree this is the best, most rounded build, but if you want to be more agressive, perhaps you should stop wanting to 14h/14p at the same time ? You have to balance both. Players like Kyrix or Fruitdealer are showing that a delayed expand with a lot of aggression is possible. But the keyword is delayed expand. Zerg can make something like what, 25-35 drones in 3 minutes with 2 hatchs and 2 queens ? They are very flexible and can recover very fast from an aggressive opening.
I think your misconception is in thinking that it really matters a lot whether a zerg goes 14hatch/14pool or 11hatch/18pool. It really does not, both of those builds are economical if you keep droning, but that means you cannot by any means be aggressive. You can, however, choose to start pumping units out (with both builds), at which point you WILL drop behind in economy and will need to be able to do real damage with those units to justify that.
And if terran/protoss keep pumping workers and mules constantly as they should, I actually think zerg can just about manage to keep up with economy at 8min point if he tries to defend some early aggression at the same time with minimal army.. Only after 15 minutes or so of constant defense you will be actually able to pull ahead in economy due to the larva mechanics and only IF you have not over-committed in making too many units to defend before that. This means every attack a zerg does before this mark HAS to do damage, or you will end up behind in economy, because you have invested larvae to units that did nothing for you.
This larvae-mechanic differs from protoss and terran mechanics, which basically have to make workers constantly while opting to power (build unit production buildings or teching or what ever) or build his army. When they decide to start building their army, they should start applying pressure at that very instant versus a zerg, who is then FORCED to make units and can't actually pull ahead in economy, more likely will over-commit just a bit and fall behind for a while. This happens to some degree even if you just show your army and don't even actually attack, where as an attacking zerg has to commit to some degree to try to do actual damage so his investment in units is not in vain.
It is kind of wrong to say zerg early pressure builds are all all-ins, but it is kind of right as well. If you don't deal damage, you will fall behind, which is not the case for other races who will make those units anyway and progress normally towards mid/end-game. Furthermore, other races will get opportunities to kill a greedily droning zerg at any point if they poke actively. If the zerg over-commits to early/mid-game units, he can't really breach a turtling terran or protoss with them and the game is quite easily won 10 minutes later by falling back and macroing/turtling for a while.
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On December 24 2010 18:57 Boxxer wrote: QQ I'm a Zerg and I have the strongest late game but I also want the strongest early game as well
Why the shit do people keep saying this? Seriously. What's "strongest late game"? How is this measured? Who decided it? I'm quite curious. My personal experience isn't really very relevant- I'm not playing at the level where it would matter, but it seems for any race your late game is absolutely and completely dependent on coming out of the mid game with an advantage (in either tech or food). Not some magic "I saved larva that means i win" idea.
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People think Zerg early game is weak because eco builds are standard. I've seen a lot of 1 base 12 pool zerg play that's pretty much retard strong.
I play 14 hatch or 14 pool 15 hatch in 99% of my games and I know that going that BO means my early game is weak because that's just the nature of the build. Watch Sen or Catz go more aggressive builds and tell me going for heavy early pressure is weak.
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God, I'm not even going to bother reading all nine pages of this discussion.
Look, if you're smart and playing zerg, you will learn how to use them and their units to your advantage. If you instead opt into whining, you will continue going on forever, the same way this thread has gone on nine pages. Like I said I don't care to read through another thread about people who don't know how to play. Has, after nine pages, this thread come to any kind of conclusion? I'll bet no.
Of course if you like you can start posting replays of the great fuck-ups preventing the zerg from being your, what was it you wanted? easy-win race.
Seriously I dare you to post up replays of things that didn't work and we'll tell you why they didn't work and what you can try instead. if you're smart, you'll quit your bitching and learn to play.
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The amount of disgusting posts from all sides without acknowledging the OP's concern is simply astounding. I could understand the OP perfectly.
To OP: What if wall-off is possible for Zerg like T & P? For example, if Blizzard changes all the maps' mains to the size of Xelnaga, and the whole main for zerg will be fully covered by creep at the beginning of the game. So that zerg can wall its main with a building (say an evolution chamber or a pool) and a spine once pool is constructed. Spine uprooting time reduced so that units can go in and out with reasonable timing. (but of course needs to be carefully adjusted so that spines won't be abused offensively)
Would that help 1-base play of the zerg race? I'd think that will at least give some high-ground advantage to 1-basing zerg, while denying scouts from the opponents?
Now it's not exactly more options for attacking, but it'll give zerg more security in early game and will allow zerg can actually play strategically, instead of being stressed of unexpected attacks from T or P?
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Thought we were past the whole Zerg hysteria 'omg my race sucks and everything T/P has is better' phase by now? Z plays different than T which plays different than P. It's part of the game and it's what made BW great and what makes SC2 great.
The last thing we want is for Bliz to go in WoW: Cataclysm direction with SC2 (homogenization).
A little more on topic, Zerg CAN go early aggression. No one CHOOSES to. As others have said, Z has the most choice by far for econ or aggression.
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On December 27 2010 16:26 oxxo wrote:
Thought we were past the whole Zerg hysteria 'omg my race sucks and everything T/P has is better' phase by now? Z plays different than T which plays different than P. It's part of the game and it's what made BW great and what makes SC2 great.
The last thing we want is for Bliz to go in WoW: Cataclysm direction with SC2 (homogenization).
A little more on topic, Zerg CAN go early aggression. No one CHOOSES to. As others have said, Z has the most choice by far for econ or aggression.
Your off-topic comment was probably not needed (there are gazillion of them in this thread already), and your on-topic comment is downright false, I don't know how you could say that with a straight face. I rarely see zerg wins a game with early aggression at high-level replays when it goes for such aggression. I thought it's commonly accepted that zergs tend to win longer games? While T can win against Z in 7 mins.
I believe Blizzard mentioned that a race being too weak/dominant at a certain stage of game is not what it wants. Sure the 3 races are different but it doesn't mean that they can't be balanced through out the many phases of the game. If zerg's late game is too strong then it should be toned down. If zerg's early game leaves no strategic options then that should be addressed as well.
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1. Zerg is like a virus. You can fight it at the beginning.. but once it becomes immune to your failed attempts, it will spread like wildfire and you're FUCKED.
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People love this game for the diiferences in the game mechanics.......... one of them being the lack of wall off for zerg balanced against superior flexibility and macro potential. If you take an expo before 18 food.......... guess what you are being greedy. An earlier pool would allow you to build spinecrawlers earlier to defend your soon to be 2nd base ( omfg its 3 food later no waiiiiiiiiiiiii) and still even against the greediest of T and P put you way ahead in bases. When i play zero i generally go the 11 P 18H because guess what... its safe and sacrifices very little in econ.. Too bad most of you zerg are the most rediculous greedy players on the planet. and expect a 15h 14p to be uncounterable. I love ZvZ because most of you idiots are like LOL LETS 15h 14 pool and i just baneling and its over because you are rediculous.
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Zerg has plenty of "attacking" ability. Who cares if lings aren't able to bust a wall? If you have enough lings left over after an engagement from destroying a Protoss or Terran early/midgame attack, you've probably already won. If you're Protoss or Terran and you move out and happen to have too few units against Zerg, you can't retreat. You just lose all your units and then lose the game because Zerg can make 20-30 drones as you're replenishing your army to match his.
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I was giving this alot of thought. Sure zerg want to be up one base above their opponent not only for the extra income but for the larva. However there are probably some aggressive 1 base builds with a delayed natural. Sure this isn't always good.
But I think some zerg just FE simply because they see the pros do it without any knowledge of how to hold of/scout out cheese or high pressure attacks. (Of course this is not relevant to everyone)
Zergs from what I see FE everytime regardless (ignoring zvz) Terrans and toss aren't dumb they could play in the dark with a 2 gate or 2 rax opening and encounter a FE 95%. Even playing in the dark your scouting worker who is ascertaining the location of your opponents base will at least see the hatch go down.
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On December 27 2010 17:47 Saracen wrote:
Zerg has plenty of "attacking" ability. Who cares if lings aren't able to bust a wall? If you have enough lings left over after an engagement from destroying a Protoss or Terran early/midgame attack, you've probably already won. If you're Protoss or Terran and you move out and happen to have too few units against Zerg, you can't retreat. You just lose all your units and then lose the game because Zerg can make 20-30 drones as you're replenishing your army to match his.
if you have enough lings left over after an engagement early it means you lost cuz you have less drones than you could and the lings are now useless anyway.
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On December 27 2010 18:52 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 17:47 Saracen wrote:
Zerg has plenty of "attacking" ability. Who cares if lings aren't able to bust a wall? If you have enough lings left over after an engagement from destroying a Protoss or Terran early/midgame attack, you've probably already won. If you're Protoss or Terran and you move out and happen to have too few units against Zerg, you can't retreat. You just lose all your units and then lose the game because Zerg can make 20-30 drones as you're replenishing your army to match his. if you have enough lings left over after an engagement early it means you lost cuz you have less drones than you could and the lings are now useless anyway.
Having lings left over doesnt mean that you have lost, i just means u are at perfect macro mode, but for people who arent aiming for complete perfection a few lings left over is better than not enough lings in the first place.
Also having units left over gives zerg a unique timing window in which they can swarm and apply pressure to the slow reinforcing protoss and terrans. If zerg wins a big fight is almost garaunteed that they can cause some damage to the opponent, its not as if terrans only attack with half their army and then leave some siege tanks at home just in case.
Yes, these attacks are far more game winning in the late game but the potential is there in the early game too, because your production isnt quite up to scratch but neither is the terrans or protoss', it is definately crushing to lose a game from a zerg who gets some lings in your base and picks off reinforcing marines and tanks one by one as they prop from the buildings. Its not like zerg who instantly surround your units if you happen to be near a hatch when all the units pop.
Also having lings left over means u dont need to make quite so many to defend the next attack, meaning that you can make more drones! So its not quite as bad as you make out having some units on the field before they are sent to fight.
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EPT
