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On December 27 2010 19:45 Zacsafus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 18:52 IdrA wrote:On December 27 2010 17:47 Saracen wrote:
Zerg has plenty of "attacking" ability. Who cares if lings aren't able to bust a wall? If you have enough lings left over after an engagement from destroying a Protoss or Terran early/midgame attack, you've probably already won. If you're Protoss or Terran and you move out and happen to have too few units against Zerg, you can't retreat. You just lose all your units and then lose the game because Zerg can make 20-30 drones as you're replenishing your army to match his. if you have enough lings left over after an engagement early it means you lost cuz you have less drones than you could and the lings are now useless anyway. Having lings left over doesnt mean that you have lost, i just means u are at perfect macro mode, but for people who arent aiming for complete perfection a few lings left over is better than not enough lings in the first place. Also having units left over gives zerg a unique timing window in which they can swarm and apply pressure to the slow reinforcing protoss and terrans. If zerg wins a big fight is almost garaunteed that they can cause some damage to the opponent, its not as if terrans only attack with half their army and then leave some siege tanks at home just in case. Yes, these attacks are far more game winning in the late game but the potential is there in the early game too, because your production isnt quite up to scratch but neither is the terrans or protoss', it is definately crushing to lose a game from a zerg who gets some lings in your base and picks off reinforcing marines and tanks one by one as they prop from the buildings. Its not like zerg who instantly surround your units if you happen to be near a hatch when all the units pop. Also having lings left over means u dont need to make quite so many to defend the next attack, meaning that you can make more drones! So its not quite as bad as you make out having some units on the field before they are sent to fight.
You missed his point completely. He's basically saying if you have lings left over you produced too many lings too early and thus hurt your economy so you might not be able to produce enough fighting units for the next attack because you produced too many too early.
As a Zerg early game you want to try survive everything with as little commitment as possible. Having an over-commitment is terrible for you and hurts.
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It's not that Zerg can't early pressure, it's that Zerg elect to take their almost-guaranteed super-early expansion.
No, Zerg can't early pressure AND take their almost-guaranteed super-early expansion. Sorry about that.
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On December 27 2010 20:01 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 19:45 Zacsafus wrote:On December 27 2010 18:52 IdrA wrote:On December 27 2010 17:47 Saracen wrote:
Zerg has plenty of "attacking" ability. Who cares if lings aren't able to bust a wall? If you have enough lings left over after an engagement from destroying a Protoss or Terran early/midgame attack, you've probably already won. If you're Protoss or Terran and you move out and happen to have too few units against Zerg, you can't retreat. You just lose all your units and then lose the game because Zerg can make 20-30 drones as you're replenishing your army to match his. if you have enough lings left over after an engagement early it means you lost cuz you have less drones than you could and the lings are now useless anyway. Having lings left over doesnt mean that you have lost, i just means u are at perfect macro mode, but for people who arent aiming for complete perfection a few lings left over is better than not enough lings in the first place. Also having units left over gives zerg a unique timing window in which they can swarm and apply pressure to the slow reinforcing protoss and terrans. If zerg wins a big fight is almost garaunteed that they can cause some damage to the opponent, its not as if terrans only attack with half their army and then leave some siege tanks at home just in case. Yes, these attacks are far more game winning in the late game but the potential is there in the early game too, because your production isnt quite up to scratch but neither is the terrans or protoss', it is definately crushing to lose a game from a zerg who gets some lings in your base and picks off reinforcing marines and tanks one by one as they prop from the buildings. Its not like zerg who instantly surround your units if you happen to be near a hatch when all the units pop. Also having lings left over means u dont need to make quite so many to defend the next attack, meaning that you can make more drones! So its not quite as bad as you make out having some units on the field before they are sent to fight. You missed his point completely. He's basically saying if you have lings left over you produced too many lings too early and thus hurt your economy so you might not be able to produce enough fighting units for the next attack because you produced too many too early. As a Zerg early game you want to try survive everything with as little commitment as possible. Having an over-commitment is terrible for you and hurts.
I didnt miss his point, sorry if it came over that way, what i am saying is that he is exaggerating a ton, its not gg if you have some lings left over. Don't forget the terran had to spend money to make his units too, and if you crush him with units left over and he didnt do much damage, then you have essentially gained a timing window in which to attack him, this is on top of the economic damage it cost him to make the units and have his push fail.
Yes it is true that zerg cant just put on pressure by busting a ramp, much like protoss or terran can, (well bling busts work on occassion and its usually gg if they arent prepared, just like zerg is sometimes underprepared) but they have a unique timing in which they can punish the way in which terran more so than protoss reinforce, if you dont have enough units to hold off a wave of zerg units, you will never be able to cope with the pressure a zerg can put on with consecutive waves.
Essentially wall-ins are the only way protoss and terran arent dominated by zergs reinforcement mechanics, they dont wall in because it gives them an advantage, you wall in because its neccessary, but even wall ins arent infallable. You dont see terran and protoss walling against T or P because it isnt neccessary and its more of an advantage to have your ramp free for traversing when you know there isnt a chance of dying from an attack right away.
If terran and protoss couldnt wall off zerg would be able to win easily by just sending wave after wave at them in the early game, wall ins help mitigate this pressure, but trust me terrans and protoss feel super uneasy at expanding to an open natural like xel'naga's. Its not just zerg who feels hot under the collar about attacks you cant see coming.
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I think the reason Zergs aren't applying pressure early on is because they can't make fighting units and drones at the same time. Larvae is a resource, and a scarce one in the early game.
You see the 5 roach rush? You cut drones at like 15 because at some point you have to stop making drones in order to make something else.
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not true
watch a few korean zergs replay or pro games casted by someone
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I agree with the OP, but I think the problem could be best solved with better balanced maps with bigger ramps. If it is harder/take longer to wall-in the enemy cannot apply pressure without danger. Attacking should always bring some risks. So you either walloff good and fast, or you don't, but if your attack fails you are vulnerable. But thats just something blizzard can do, in the meantime Z have to refine defensive play and to develop metagame to become more resistant against any kind of cheese/pressure. While there is a principal end to this learning (for instance the FE is the best build vs. foxer style aggression and macrowise cannot be improved), I don't think the zerg have already arrived at that point.
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I'm not sure why I'm posting this, 100 people have already but I just want to reinforce the idea that...
If a Terran or Protoss decide to go on the offensive in the early/early mid-game, and manage to trade army for army(resource costs included), they can come out of it pretty damn even. If a Zerg goes on the offensive and trades army for army, it puts him behind since he could have droned up and defended at a later point and come out of that exchange with a bigger economy.
I would go so far as to equate it to pullling scv's to use in your attack, and if you don't do any economic damage then you're just going to be farther behind in the worker count. There is a greater necessity to do economic damage to your opponent when playing offensively, and thus a greater risk compared to the other races.
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On December 27 2010 22:54 Tachion wrote:
I'm not sure why I'm posting this, 100 people have already but I just want to reinforce the idea that...
If a Terran or Protoss decide to go on the offensive in the early/early mid-game, and manage to trade army for army(resource costs included), they can come out of it pretty damn even. If a Zerg goes on the offensive and trades army for army, it puts him behind since he could have droned up and defended at a later point and come out of that exchange with a bigger economy.
I would go so far as to equate it to pullling scv's to use in your attack, and if you don't do any economic damage then you're just going to be farther behind in the worker count. There is a greater necessity to do economic damage to your opponent when playing offensively, and thus a greater risk compared to the other races.
That's actually a pretty flawed comparison
If you can trade your army for his army containing sentries/tanks by all means go for it, providing you have an economy behind it. If it was always possible for Zerg to trade army for army Zerg would win about 95% of games. If you could only kill those sentries before they come at you with 200/200 ;_;
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Having a kill move is definitely easier (and more noob friendly) than having to use your advantage the take more expansions and win later. Assuming it is the right time to make a kill move, you win the game and don't leave any room to mess up later, I think the style that's hard for a lot of zerg players is that when they get what should be a winning advantage, the game still has to go on for 10-15 more minutes pretty often, that's a lot of room for mistakes. For other races vs Z it's quite often that when they get a winning advantage they can execute a kill move in 5 minutes because zerg has a relatively weak defenders advantage (basically only re-enforcements).
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On December 24 2010 10:57 Red. wrote:
as for protoss yeah, no clue. Plus the overlord scouting its completely stupid, gets destroyed by 2 marines. meanwhile protoss have observers and terran has scans (but terran wants mules blah blah blah terran needs the mules blah, they still use it so many times).
I think something has to change soon.
Its been like that since BW. I don't see the problem in scouting abilities.
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On December 27 2010 22:21 DarkRise wrote:
not true
watch a few korean zergs replay or pro games casted by someone
What's not true? Care to elaborate on this post a bit?
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On December 27 2010 23:22 salazar001 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 10:57 Red. wrote:
as for protoss yeah, no clue. Plus the overlord scouting its completely stupid, gets destroyed by 2 marines. meanwhile protoss have observers and terran has scans (but terran wants mules blah blah blah terran needs the mules blah, they still use it so many times).
I think something has to change soon. Its been like that since BW. I don't see the problem in scouting abilities.
Agreed. With overlord speed you basically have the opportunity to scout whenever the hell you want to. Plus speedlings to poke front... I really feel any Zerg saying they lack scouting ability is not playing Zerg correctly.
For instance, if you see your overlord scout dying to 2 marines (and you only see those 2 marines), then expect tech or an expansion. Might want to prepare for banshees but scout his natural, and so you are prepared for both. Wow I just revolutionized your ZvT, you can thank me later.
Keep in mind that observers come out late, and even later if you didn't open robo. But because of the sure lack of scouting and the possibility of cloaked units, I guess Protoss has to mostly open robo...
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On December 27 2010 23:50 Barca wrote:
For instance, if you see your overlord scout dying to 2 marines (and you only see those 2 marines), then expect tech or an expansion. Might want to prepare for banshees but scout his natural, and so you are prepared for both. Wow I just revolutionized your ZvT, you can thank me later.
This might work in bronce league, but anybody above bronce league won't use more than 2 marines, as there is no need to. So seeing an overlord dying to 2 marines means absolutely nothing, it could be tech, it could be an expansion, it could also mean he has a huge marineforce in his base, waiting for stim to finish. Basically the overlord scouted 2 marines, which is..not that helpful at all. I see no reason to thank you, as you haven't really revolutionized anything beyond the bronce league.
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On December 27 2010 23:07 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 22:54 Tachion wrote:
I'm not sure why I'm posting this, 100 people have already but I just want to reinforce the idea that...
If a Terran or Protoss decide to go on the offensive in the early/early mid-game, and manage to trade army for army(resource costs included), they can come out of it pretty damn even. If a Zerg goes on the offensive and trades army for army, it puts him behind since he could have droned up and defended at a later point and come out of that exchange with a bigger economy.
I would go so far as to equate it to pullling scv's to use in your attack, and if you don't do any economic damage then you're just going to be farther behind in the worker count. There is a greater necessity to do economic damage to your opponent when playing offensively, and thus a greater risk compared to the other races. That's actually a pretty flawed comparison If you can trade your army for his army containing sentries/tanks by all means go for it, providing you have an economy behind it. If it was always possible for Zerg to trade army for army Zerg would win about 95% of games. If you could only kill those sentries before they come at you with 200/200 ;_;
That's just the thing though, until you get into the mid-game, you are playing catchup with your econ the entire time. If you hinder that even more then your opponent will have a superior econ and just roll you later on in the game, sentries or not.
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Ok fair, I won't discuss balance but you sure did. Your ending statement stating it has oh absolutely nothing to do with balance was cute.
Yes zerg has no way of killing someone who knows what they are doing before tier 2.
End.
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On December 27 2010 23:54 Rflcrx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 23:50 Barca wrote:
For instance, if you see your overlord scout dying to 2 marines (and you only see those 2 marines), then expect tech or an expansion. Might want to prepare for banshees but scout his natural, and so you are prepared for both. Wow I just revolutionized your ZvT, you can thank me later.
This might work in bronce league, but anybody above bronce league won't use more than 2 marines, as there is no need to. So seeing an overlord dying to 2 marines means absolutely nothing, it could be tech, it could be an expansion, it could also mean he has a huge marineforce in his base, waiting for stim to finish. Basically the overlord scouted 2 marines, which is..not that helpful at all. I see no reason to thank you, as you haven't really revolutionized anything beyond the bronce league.
Assuming the overlord is being attacked by only 2 marines your overlord will make it to about midway through the base. If one doesn't work for you that's fine then use 2. The only scout cheaper than that (at the moment) assuming every 1 gas counting as 2 minerals would be the scouting rax as a scan sacrifices a mule.
Sure terrans might opt to scan you without hesitation but this does prevent them from building as many units. And even if the toss/terran hide their force you will at least see their production facilities. Also there is usually very little a scouting scv or later scouting scv won't notice if they are not on lair tech yet. Until lair tech is achieved the zerg have very limited places of building buildings efficiently.
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On December 28 2010 00:19 terranghost wrote:
Assuming the overlord is being attacked by only 2 marines your overlord will make it to about midway through the base.
No.
On December 28 2010 00:19 terranghost wrote:
If one doesn't work for you that's fine then use 2.
200 minerals and 2 larvae to know he has 4 marines? Not worth it.
On December 28 2010 00:19 terranghost wrote:
The only scout cheaper than that
Again: For anybody above bronce league that is no scouting at all.
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On December 27 2010 19:45 Zacsafus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 18:52 IdrA wrote:On December 27 2010 17:47 Saracen wrote:
Zerg has plenty of "attacking" ability. Who cares if lings aren't able to bust a wall? If you have enough lings left over after an engagement from destroying a Protoss or Terran early/midgame attack, you've probably already won. If you're Protoss or Terran and you move out and happen to have too few units against Zerg, you can't retreat. You just lose all your units and then lose the game because Zerg can make 20-30 drones as you're replenishing your army to match his. if you have enough lings left over after an engagement early it means you lost cuz you have less drones than you could and the lings are now useless anyway. Having lings left over doesnt mean that you have lost, i just means u are at perfect macro mode, but for people who arent aiming for complete perfection a few lings left over is better than not enough lings in the first place.
Tell that to Blizz balancing team who created SC2 Zerg. Against most all-in builds you do need to be perfect. GG 
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On December 28 2010 00:32 Rflcrx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 00:19 terranghost wrote:
Assuming the overlord is being attacked by only 2 marines your overlord will make it to about midway through the base.
No. Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 00:19 terranghost wrote:
If one doesn't work for you that's fine then use 2.
200 minerals and 2 larvae to know he has 4 marines? Not worth it. Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 00:19 terranghost wrote:
The only scout cheaper than that Again: For anybody above bronce league that is no scouting at all.
+1
User was warned for this post
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On December 27 2010 22:54 Tachion wrote:
I'm not sure why I'm posting this, 100 people have already but I just want to reinforce the idea that...
If a Terran or Protoss decide to go on the offensive in the early/early mid-game, and manage to trade army for army(resource costs included), they can come out of it pretty damn even. If a Zerg goes on the offensive and trades army for army, it puts him behind since he could have droned up and defended at a later point and come out of that exchange with a bigger economy.
I would go so far as to equate it to pullling scv's to use in your attack, and if you don't do any economic damage then you're just going to be farther behind in the worker count. There is a greater necessity to do economic damage to your opponent when playing offensively, and thus a greater risk compared to the other races.
Wrong. At the beginning of the game, you drone your ass off. Why? Because your opponent has no units - he can't do any damage. Then, he starts getting his ball. You're forced to make units.
Let's say he's on 1 base. You cut drones at a particular point in time to stop his attack. You trade armies. You have 2 base to his 1. Can he expand? No, because even though he has plenty of workers, he's on 1 base. Your income is still higher, and you can reinforce faster. Even if he does manage to expand, you can build 2 rounds of drones, and you've won the game because he can't apply pressure.
Let's say you're both on 2 base. You trade armies. Now what? He can't pressure you because he has no army. You can make a round or two of drones. Now you're far ahead in economy, and you're soon to be ahead in army as well.
The problem is either you're regurgitating common beliefs, or you just don't know when to drone. It's not to say that you're wrong that you'll get more economy by making drones instead of units. It's just flawed to think that trading armies as Zerg is a bad thing. Also, sometimes you can't always "defend at a later point" because Zerg is a very positional race. For example, on Shakuras Plateau, if you wait for a Protoss to get all the way up to your natural before you start defending with roach/ling/crawler, you've pretty much lost.
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EPT
