EPTMy answer was obviously aimed at the thread creator or have you hijacked this thread now? answering every post with a reply...It's all well and good being a theorcrafter on TL but i'm giving you the answer from a 2700+ Zerg player on Eu,Na prospective, take it as you will
Lack of attacking ability for zerg - Page 3
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TrANCE,
301 Posts
My answer was obviously aimed at the thread creator or have you hijacked this thread now? answering every post with a reply...It's all well and good being a theorcrafter on TL but i'm giving you the answer from a 2700+ Zerg player on Eu,Na prospective, take it as you will | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
On December 24 2010 10:55 Zephirdd wrote: You should watch some CatZ streams... he basically says "who the F*** invented that Zerg cant pressure early on." all the time, with play. He is like the god of early zerg play into transitions. Also, every static ling in your army can be used for map control. Yeah, but CatZ isn't that amazing of a player. I know it makes me sound like a dick, but it's true. He's never gotten any real tournament results (or even top 5 placement) and the Zergs that have don't play like him, yet they're much more successful. Note: I'm not saying he's bad by any means, he's just not AS good. It's also worth noting the main reason his strategies are sometimes successful is because no one expects them, not because they're very powerful. If they became more mainstream they wouldn't work. | ||
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JBrown08
Canada306 Posts
On December 24 2010 13:13 TrANCE, wrote: I'm not either actually and obviously my e button on my phone is playing up and ov typing on a phone. It's a post on a thread about sc2 not a English exam, I'm not saying anything about your posts. My answer was obviously aimed at the thread creator or have you hijacked this thread now? answering every post with a reply...It's all well and good being a theorcrafter on TL but i'm giving you the answer from a 2700+ Zerg player on Eu,Na prospective, take it as you will Well let me personally apologize to you good sir. I meant no offense if that is the state of your phone at the present time. It was merely a misunderstanding and I hope in the future no such occurence occurs. | ||
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teotwawki
United States9 Posts
On December 24 2010 12:56 KillerPlague wrote: that is the price of taking an early expansion. when protoss nexus before gateway early roaches are ferocious and there is no way to deal with them except well placed cannons that get sniped very easily by 5-6 roaches. if you don't have plans to throw down an early hatchery all of a sudden these "blind" rushes become instant death.. I may not understand this part of the game well, but as a zerg on one base can't you only produce at most 7 units every 45 seconds? and to keep up with the economy of a protoss or Terran doesn't about half of those need to be drones? To me any one base play from zerg would seem like an all-in and a weak one at that. I always thought the point of the early hatch as zerg was to boost your larvae count, and since you are building another base to do this, it might as well be at the expansion. IMO the reason zerg lack any T1 aggressive options that are not easily countered and basically all in is the lack of a valuable T1 ranged unit that actually has the range to effectively shoot wall ins. | ||
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ThE_ShiZ
United States143 Posts
1 - Give Zerglings an attack buff. This would make marines less useful, tanks more useful (especially if their damage was buffed), and they could be made to overkill, balancing the damage buff. 2 - Zergs need to stop expanding so soon all the time if they want to be less predictable Building a hatch inside main instead of the nat accomplishes what? It's not about predictability, it's about necessity. If I see a zerg hatch in his main I can pretty much guarantee a GG as long as I don't blunder. The only thing you can do off of 1 base is baneling bust or roach push, which can both be easily stopped. 1 base is even more predictable because it limits your options. If I don't see a quick Z expo I can just fortify my ramp, and the longer he waits to expand the better it is for me. | ||
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BritishBeef
United Kingdom372 Posts
On December 24 2010 11:33 MythicalMage wrote: Statistics like that don't mean anything. The sample size and skill differential is too great. The game is far more based on skill than on balance, as shown by FruitDealer. Actually i think your being a bit deluded and didn't weigh in the facts of the matter.. Fruitdealer TOTALLY dominated BETA he was the zerg to watch.. He was A FAV going into GSL 1 it wasn't like some magical poney ride where everything came together with pixy dust, he dominated beta was the leader in developing zerg stratergys but now zerg has been pushed to a certain boundry it is very hard to see the next step. He even said himself hes very great at games when they firstcome out. This game really has a huge skill element at it but when it starts reaching the top level balance starts having a good say in the outcome. Unlike BW you can't just "outmacro" cyborg mode the other opponent which was a blunt way to show who was better, now you have to with each race play a certain way with a larger degree of the luck element then in BW (Obviously this is a drastic oversimplification i know how much skill was involved in broodwar in all aspects just pointing out that in the modern broodwar era that Macro was the distinct way of sorting the cream from the custard) Also some of the idiotic things done by blizzard.. such as delaying the "wall ramp off" patch . Buffing protoss when statistically they rape terran and hold there own against zerg. Sorry for pointing this out just i feel that its a bit of a joke that this is actually a viable stratergy and even if you pool first you will be fucked, mabye im still but i dont recall something in BW that made you like automatically 50% or more likely to lose then before simply by 200/350 minerals | ||
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RoosterSamurai
Japan2108 Posts
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vict1019
United States401 Posts
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ThePieRate
United States263 Posts
Depending on what my oppenents are doing I usually will go roach/hydra or muta ling/bling in mid game. Muta harrass is always a good aggressive strategy. If you do attack a turtling toss with Roach/Hydra then bring a couple overseers so you can attack easily from there ramp and break the wall. But against terran its very hard to break through a turtling terran, your going to have to harrass with what you can whether its a nydus in the main, zerglings burrowed in expos, muta harrass. Sometimes infestors work very well as long as you didn't go with mutas, most of the time they wont have turrets in expos so infested terrans will work pretty well. Against terran you have to take any advantage you can. In late game it usually will just become my army vs your army situation and who ever wins that will win the game usually. Just make sure you have stayed a step ahead of the terrans units and countered them correctly. | ||
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Zerksys
United States569 Posts
For protoss it's the same way. If his initial attack fails then I feel safe enough to pump 7 drones and then some. I can then use these to put up some static defense at my natural if I don't feel safe later on. I do feel that both terran and protoss players have tricks that are very hard to fight off as a zerg player. When terrans attack early it is usually accompanied by scvs. This type of attack is not done because people know that zerg don't have a way to counterattack. This attack is done because in addition to being an aggressive move, it is also an economic move. Even if terrans are down 4 scvs, in a low economy situation the terran player will always come out on top with the mule. This is the reason we see so much early terran aggression. As they say, you can kill 2 birds with one stone be aggressive and come out with a better economy than your opponent. As protoss the pylon wall is really effective because there's nothing much that a zerg player can do against it once the pylons start building. If you pull drones as a zerg player you may be able to kill the pylon before it finishes making, but it's a small chance because you can't even halfway surround the pylon. If protoss places a cannon there and zerg has fast hatched it almost always has to be cancelled. If zerg went pool first, then zerg still suffers because it forces zerg to make units to take out the pylon and cannon instead of making drones. It also causes the hatchery to go down later. Zerg lacks the ability to make moves such as this where there's very little opportunity cost to doing such moves and only hurts you if you fail. | ||
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charlie420247
United States692 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On December 24 2010 12:56 KillerPlague wrote: that is the price of taking an early expansion. when protoss nexus before gateway early roaches are ferocious and there is no way to deal with them except well placed cannons that get sniped very easily by 5-6 roaches. if you don't have plans to throw down an early hatchery all of a sudden these "blind" rushes become instant death.. Roach rushing off of one hatch like that is usually all-in or at least cheesy. Zerg needs an extra hatch for larva (to make lots of units to attack with), and many times there is almost no advantage to making it an inbase hatch. It's not like zerglings work well with ramps or anything. A Nexus does not make zealots or stalkers. It really isn't that comparable and gives the impression that you don't know how zerg works at all in comparison to the other races. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On December 24 2010 11:05 Krejven wrote: Yeah I also get sick that Terran got 66,66% of the GSL wins while Zerg got 0%. oh wait.... I just want to point out what a stupid, flawed argument this is. A. More terran players have advanced than zerg players (I believe) B. This is over a series of patch and balance changes. C. Terran players have made all 3 finals (as opposed to 2 zerg players) D. A sample pool of 3 series is pretty fucking awful for setting up a confidence interval. E. There are lots of more flaws, but come on terran players who are crying for imbalance - if you want to complain about it, use better examples than this. At least try to support your argument. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
At T2 Zerg can do very strong drops - which are IMHO far underused - and nydus worms are always an option, too. There is nothing more fun than dropping a ball of roaches and hydras into his base, sniping a few buildings, loading all units back into overlords and flying away before he can put up a fight. Carpet-Bombing is also a strong option, it's like a Reaver-Shuttle without the need to drop and load the Reaver all the time. Sneak-attacks with burrowed roaches and infestors are also very dangerous if the enemy lacks detection. Last but not least for T2, mutalisks can be devastating if used correctly, forcing the enemy to go Thor/Marine(/Hellion), just so you can drop a lot of lings and banelings on him. At T3 you have broodlords and ultralisks (though usually not at the same time), and each of those two units can wreck any defense with the right support. | ||
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Boxxer
83 Posts
On December 24 2010 10:54 FlamingTurd wrote: Yea... leads back to the whole problem Z has of not doing enough damage per cost of unit. The stats all show increasingly lately Z is having problems, hopefully something will eventually be done about it. Sick of watching 80% tournaments won by T and the rest by P GSL 1 + 2 when zerg were considered the weak race, zerg are fine so stfu and stop spreading the crap please. L2P ISSUE. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On December 24 2010 16:31 Boxxer wrote: GSL 1 + 2 when zerg were considered the weak race, zerg are fine so stfu and stop spreading the crap please. L2P ISSUE. Zerg was at it's weakest in GSL1, and at it's strongest in GSL 2, before people adjusted to the Zerg buffs. | ||
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Liquoid
United Kingdom275 Posts
On December 24 2010 11:20 MythicalMage wrote: With MULEs a Terran can't even match a Zerg regularly making workers with larva inject. Especially since Zerg is almost always up a base or three. Regardless, the guy's point was correct, most of the time. While agressive( read creative) players like Kyrix can be aggressive, and win quite a lot, most players (read IdrA/Artosis) like to sit back and make as few units as possible. Balance QQ, oh how I love thee. | ||
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ket-
97 Posts
With bigger, more macro-oriented maps, cheesy rushes automatically become way more dangerous although not impossible. But yeah, it also doesn't help that T and P just HAVE to do units since they can't produce that many workers at once, while zergs simply tend to overdrone believing they can crap out an army of equal force in a single round of larvaes. At least I tend to do that, and even quite a lot of top players I see in tournaments do that as well. [Edit] Small addition about the whole GSL1 and 2 thing, just have a look at the statistics - yes 2 zergs won but they clearly outplayed their opponents both times, has nothing to do with balance. Just like GSL3 winner outplayed his opponent big time. IF you want to talk about statistics, just have a look at the number of P/Z players in ro16-ro8 in all seasons and compare them to T, I haven't done it myself but at least then you'll have a better argument. | ||
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Dellward
Australia138 Posts
On December 24 2010 11:17 Wr3k wrote: Zerg can pressure natural expo's no problem with roach/ling. Why are you attacking a 1-base P/T up a ramp when hes got wall/sentries? P and T 1 base builds actually have a huge risk against a good player. If you don't do damage/force much spending, you are at a macro disadvantage and at risk of getting run over by a superior number of units. Also, you can't expect not to get destroyed by forcefield if you let him make 6 sentries and save energy the entire game. IMO another crappy zerg whining thread. Terran and Toss can quite easily wall off or at least get a good choke with two bases on a number of 1v1 maps, including Scrap, Shakuras, LT, DQ, Blistering, etc. Xel'Naga caverns is really one of the only few 1v1 maps where zerg can effectively harass enemy expansions, which is the reason it's so popular. | ||
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N0cturnal
United Kingdom40 Posts
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