|
On December 24 2010 11:17 0neder wrote:
1 - Give Zerglings an attack buff. This would make marines less useful, tanks more useful (especially if their damage was buffed), and they could be made to overkill, balancing the damage buff.
2 - Zergs need to stop expanding so soon all the time if they want to be less predictable
I take a little issue with your second statement. Terran players like to say that they have to pressure with 2 raxs because the zerg player expos early. When in reality this happens to be a little disingenuous.
If a zerg doesn't expo early and Terran does the same push; it is doubly effective. You just don't have the creep spread/larva to defend effectively. People automatically assume the expo is just for the early resources, when in reality the value is the extra larva. You don't have to saturate right away if pressure is comming. You also will benefit from having the expo at the natural when you defend instead of building it in base.
Now against toss it is a different story, and I highly doubt every zerg 14 hatches against toss on every map.
|
On December 24 2010 11:05 Krejven wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 10:54 FlamingTurd wrote:
Yea... leads back to the whole problem Z has of not doing enough damage per cost of unit. The stats all show increasingly lately Z is having problems, hopefully something will eventually be done about it. Sick of watching 80% tournaments won by T and the rest by P Yeah I also get sick that Terran got 66,66% of the GSL wins while Zerg got 0%. oh wait....
Yea 2 former brood war progamers stomping everyone else proves balance. How many of the final 4 in the last 3 GSLs have been Terran btw??
|
On December 24 2010 11:31 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 11:05 Krejven wrote:On December 24 2010 10:54 FlamingTurd wrote:
Yea... leads back to the whole problem Z has of not doing enough damage per cost of unit. The stats all show increasingly lately Z is having problems, hopefully something will eventually be done about it. Sick of watching 80% tournaments won by T and the rest by P Yeah I also get sick that Terran got 66,66% of the GSL wins while Zerg got 0%. oh wait.... Yea 2 former brood war progamers stomping everyone else proves balance. How many of the final 4 in the last 3 GSLs have been Terran btw??
Statistics like that don't mean anything. The sample size and skill differential is too great. The game is far more based on skill than on balance, as shown by FruitDealer.
|
On December 24 2010 11:31 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 11:05 Krejven wrote:On December 24 2010 10:54 FlamingTurd wrote:
Yea... leads back to the whole problem Z has of not doing enough damage per cost of unit. The stats all show increasingly lately Z is having problems, hopefully something will eventually be done about it. Sick of watching 80% tournaments won by T and the rest by P Yeah I also get sick that Terran got 66,66% of the GSL wins while Zerg got 0%. oh wait.... Yea 2 former brood war progamers stomping everyone else proves balance. How many of the final 4 in the last 3 GSLs have been Terran btw??
Doesn't it? Two good zerg players came and "stomped" all competition shows that the class most people said could not win had great potential.
Where have we seen this before? Oh yes one of the greatest players in bw history, boxer, came in as an underdog playing Terran (which most people said was UP) and changed the way terran played the game.
Now one can consider how long after Starcraft broodwar had been released this happend? How long have SC2 been out? a few months, that's it.
Edit: GSL is the biggest tournament with the most skill and should there for be valued higher than American and European tournaments where only a few selected "pros" (who most of them can't even manage to qualify to GSL) attend.
|
I should have been more explicit, sorry.
This isnt about balance. At all. Please dont discuss balance, or whether you think the game is balanced or not in here.
When I asked if you think that it is good for the game for zerg to have little/no possibilities to attack early on, I meant that as in, good for the game from a spectator point of view, for example. Or creativity, or gameplay experience.
Balance has nothing to do with this. Its perfectly possible for zergs to be perfectly balanced without having the ability to attack before T2, so please do not discuss whether or not the game is balanced, or proposed changes to improve balance in this thread.
|
On December 24 2010 11:45 morimacil wrote:
When I asked if you think that it is good for the game for zerg to have little/no possibilities to attack early on, I meant that as in, good for the game from a spectator point of view, for example. Or creativity, or gameplay experience.
I'm not so sure that Zerg doesn't have the opportunities...I think that we will see more aggressive zerg play as the game develops-- right now we are all just finding what is safest and what leads to the most wins, and for zerg players that is the reactionary macro game. I'm sure the macro game will remain strong (although it will undoubtedly develop more), but I think we will see more aggressive strategies as well as people experiment-- not to mention changes from future patches/expansions.
|
Its hard to counterattack the oppenent's base as zerg but its very easy to mop up fleeing troops with speedlings and take a massive economic advantage to punish early game pressure. When I first started playing whenever I beat back an attack I'd conter with speedling roach and do nothing but pump troops that die in vain trying to crush the oppenent's defenses. This didn't work of course but as soon as I learned to mop up the attackers and use my remaining troops to spot and switch to econ, my zerg game flourished.
|
this is why i go so heavy muta in ZvT
i find counterattacking with muta is so much more effective because:
- muta are fast as hell
- you can get right up inside his base and pick off reinforcements as they come out
- can break a wall much easier since you have high ground vision
- cant be hit by tanks and PFs which wreck ground counterattacks
|
This all goes back to how Zerg is slow as crap off creep outside of speedlings, and concussive shells/FF makes it very discouraging to even try to pressure with roaches.
However, this isn't really a big issue imo. 3 Hatch muta was the most common build in brood war, and there's rarely any sort of huge pressure besides when the Terran may try to break the sunken line. It was generally too unsafe to attempt it. Then your first real engagement is the Terran fending off mutas until science vessel. If anything, what makes early aggression so powerful for Terran is how good worker AI is for Terran which goes great with marines (melee+range) while Mules just make it even easier for Terran to maintain economy. Keep in mind that early aggression also existed in BW in the TvZ MU, it's just less all-in since you can't pull as many scvs and they don't fight as well.
|
what fucking game are some of you people playing. no zerg units arn't good at attacking but you sure as hell can punish T/P for having no army. I've lost count the amount of early aggression i've dealt with then got to there base and just completly smashed right through their defences "never would have tryed with a full strengh army their"
Zerg arn't supposed to be aggressive their supposed to defend,defend then defend some more then move out with superior numbers and reinforcements and crush your opponent,
Early game zerg units really arn't that cost effective but as the game progresses they become more and more cost effective. If you want a super aggressive race play protoss instead of making stupid posts
|
On December 24 2010 12:22 TrANCE, wrote:
what fucking game are some of you people playing. no zerg units arn't good at attacking but you sure as hell can punish T/P for having no army. I've lost count the amount of early aggression i've dealt with then got to there base and just completly smashed right through their defences "never would have tryed with a full strengh army their"
Zerg arn't supposed to be aggressive their supposed to defend,defend then defend some more then move out with superior numbers and reinforcements and crush your opponent,
Early game zerg units really arn't that cost effective but as the game progresses they become more and more cost effective. If you want a super aggressive race play protoss instead of making stupid posts
Either you are very drunk, or very stupid. Your spelling is atrocious and your grammar is sub par. If your point is that zerg is not designed to be an aggressive race you could of articulated it in a number of different ways.
As of right now, I am unsure of what your actual point is. This is very confusing as if you read the thread you would of noticed my defense of the non-aggresive zerg player.
|
I dunno, I've seen enough roach busts and baneling break-ins to realize that zerg has plenty of earlygame aggressive strategies.
However, the idea for protoss and terran aggression is that they force us to make units, rather than letting us do what we want to do. Protoss and Terran don't have to choose between the two, so it doesn't really have the same effect.
|
blizzard put no thought into the zerg race and when zerg wins vs another race (besides zerg) its because the zerg player is inherently better there is no point making threads like this because they will go nowhere. Other races simply have better responses/counters to other units, for example vikings "counter" colli better than do corruptors due to their inherently longer range. not to mention, zerg isn't well... "zergy"--in sc2, you get 200 food way to quick as day9 said to beat a 200 protoss army you need a 300 zerg army (when your units die you immediately are full again b/c 4-6 base w/ constant larva injects) and in BW a 70food zerg army was equivalent to like a 100 food toss army. In other words: zerg is too exploitable it doesn't have answers to early game pressure lings are shit when compared to BW, which allowed for zerg to end a lot of early game pressure as it stands zerg doesn't have an answer and most likely won't zerg is starting from behind as soon as the game starts and has to jump ahead and capitalize on their opponent's mistakes. a continuation of the the "starting from behind" with this being said, it is easier for terran/protoss to "checkmate" so to speak zerg, lets say a protoss opens 2 stargate phoenix (then expand) - with these they will pick off queens/overlords and force most likely hydras (Seeing corruptors are way too slow to catch them) then, now that the protoss controlled the zerg's tech path they are already tech switching to the protoss warpgate/colli deathball.
edit: also, allins in sc2 are made way too powerful by warpgate/chronoboost/mules
mules = around 5 workers
warpgate = insta reinforcements
chronoboost = allows insanely fast tech (4gate allins, blink stalker allin etc)
when these are compared to larva inject, only during the late game does larva inject seem "op" due to zergs being able to "throw units" at the problem, however, by that time in the game the zerg was most likely not contained and given a free ticket to expand-land, which is only the terran/protosses fault
|
It was already like this back in BW. The difference is that in SC2 T and P almost always 1-base. In BW, Terrans would generally 1 rax CC and Protosses would FE stargate...
I remember some PvZ's by Stork in which he 1-based, and Zergs didn't get much freedom to counter too, because ramps are so strong.
|
On December 24 2010 11:25 JBrown08 wrote:
If a zerg doesn't expo early and Terran does the same push; it is doubly effective. You just don't have the creep spread/larva to defend effectively. People automatically assume the expo is just for the early resources, when in reality the value is the extra larva. You don't have to saturate right away if pressure is comming. You also will benefit from having the expo at the natural when you defend instead of building it in base.
You know, I've been wondering about that. Especially given how Zergs no longer need as much gas as quickly as in Brood War, wouldn't an in-base second hatch provide the necessary larva supply while being a lot more defensible?
I've never played Zerg 1 vs 1, so I wouldn't begin to know if this is feasible, but it always seemed reasonable to me.
|
On December 24 2010 12:41 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 11:25 JBrown08 wrote:
If a zerg doesn't expo early and Terran does the same push; it is doubly effective. You just don't have the creep spread/larva to defend effectively. People automatically assume the expo is just for the early resources, when in reality the value is the extra larva. You don't have to saturate right away if pressure is comming. You also will benefit from having the expo at the natural when you defend instead of building it in base. You know, I've been wondering about that. Especially given how Zergs no longer need as much gas as quickly as in Brood War, wouldn't an in-base second hatch provide the necessary larva supply while being a lot more defensible? I've never played Zerg 1 vs 1, so I wouldn't begin to know if this is feasible, but it always seemed reasonable to me.
It is applicable in certain circumstances, but honestly you gain no defensive capabilities from it. So in the end you are better placing it at your natural so that you can use it later. I have tried many hatch in base strats, and I've even seen IdrA go ramp hatch on Scrap Station against QXC in the EG Master Cup after an expo block, and it that case it makes sense. You should not always early expo, but when you face that pressure you always need that larva.,....and the creep spread also helps so the logical choice is your natural.
|
you know...its not like protoss and terran just magically get armies early. They commit to an early attack and invest in it, its just as easy to decide to make a bunch of zerglings early and roll
The issue mainly comes with"standard"comfortable play. Most zerg, for obvious reasons, want to develop a strong early economy. Being attacked early is uncomfortable and annoying.
Terran and protoss, however, have early strategies that revolve around getting some sort of units. So scouting early aggression just means making more units.
Zerg, on the other hand, feel as if their game is being disrupted so the reaction is more vocal because zerg just done want early units most of the time.
Also, as far as the effectiveness of early units is concerned, if everybody started out with marines then this would not be the game we all love
|
I think this really only pertains to TvZ. You can definitely take the fight to Protoss once ling speed is up.
Against terrans, there are a number of factors in play. The ease of wall-off (with burrowable depots and easy ling-tight walls) makes ling aggression non-existant. Lack of range early ensures that you can't harrass a wall. Bunkers are now salvageable, so static-D isn't really much of an investment. Siege tanks make your short range units (all of them) terrible in chokes.
Lastly, and most importantly, the marine. In Broodwar, you couldn't move out with your first few marines, because they weren't cost-effective against lings (even without speed, I believe). The attack animation of SC2 marines is really, really fast, and enables them to move-shoot very effectively. Effectively enough that you can be extraordinarily cost-effective against slow lings. Once speedlings are out, you remain cost-effective, due to the size of the marine force that's been massed. There isn't really a reason to stay in your base with the marines. Simiarly, terran late-game is considered weak, so terran players are inclined to be aggressive early in hopes of winning quickly.
|
This thread reminds me of a zerg style I tried to implement back when I was starting to play. I tried to open with a baneling bust, and then if that didn't win I'd take whatever damage I could inflict and then sprint drones until I could reach the next tier of attacking units, such as muta, and while they are harassing I could finish droning and take my 3rd, basically alternating between heavy army and drone production during each timing attack.
What eventually happened was that I realized the only way these attacks could ever be useful is if I did guaranteed damage to the mineral line. If you try and make a bunch of army so that you can hold off an attack and counter attack after, you are pretty much going all-in. This is because the other races can afford to produce workers while they pressure; if zerg pressure wants to accomplish anything, they have to cut drones which means if that pressure fails to deliver then the zerg is very far behind. If early aggression only ends up killing a few marines or buildings, a macroing player will stomp you. There is so much more risk for early aggression as zerg than there is for terran or toss, that's part of design and why I think you're not very likely to see early zerg aggression very often. A good example of this was watching Kyrix vs. Foxer in whatever GSL season they battled, foxer could afford to send in sooo many marines and kyrix gradually ran out of steam because he couldn't keep up that aggression without cutting his drones and putting a time limit on his own game. Terran, on the other hand, is obviously designed for early aggression because MULE makes up for cutting scv production.
TL;DR: Zerg can force itself to mass produce units at almost any point in the game, even early game, but the reason they usually wait is so that they can do this with their top tier units instead of drawing the line at their first tier and hoping to inflict serious damage with it (unlikely, due to the weakness of zerg early tier compared to other races). It is less due to lack of creativity than it is due to personal interpretation of game mechanics and how they were intended by the developers to function for each race, IMO.
|
that is the price of taking an early expansion. when protoss nexus before gateway early roaches are ferocious and there is no way to deal with them except well placed cannons that get sniped very easily by 5-6 roaches. if you don't have plans to throw down an early hatchery all of a sudden these "blind" rushes become instant death..
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
