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Morrow and Sjow Matchfixing? - Page 24

Forum Index > SC2 General
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RoX.KIS.Craft
Profile Joined July 2009
Ukraine73 Posts
December 22 2010 10:17 GMT
#461
RoX @ TSL2
RoX.KIS.SC2 manager.
domovoi
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1478 Posts
December 22 2010 10:18 GMT
#462
Here's what they should do now. Both should enter the tournaments, playing as hard as they can. If after 16 games they are 8-8, then one should just drop out.
MiraMax
Profile Joined July 2009
Germany532 Posts
December 22 2010 10:19 GMT
#463
On December 22 2010 19:02 ParasitJonte wrote:
You have to reduce it to the situation they were imagining.

They were thinking that the only 2 good players capable of winning would be themself. Therefore you can skip the whole tournament thing. Just think of it as 18 1v1s where the prize pool is not static. More wins for one player means more prizes.

Now, they calculated that their expected value would be maximized if one of them won 11 games and they shared the prizes. Probably because neither of them is confident that they can win more than ~65% of the games against the other player.

In that situation it only makes sense to cooperate. Doing anything else is stupid. This should be plain for all to see.

What are they going to do now? Well, now only one person will be playing. So, given that there were only 2 persons capable of winning in the first place, there are now 18 1v1s where one person has automatically forfeited. And they will share the prize money; except now they won't get the second place prizes.

Is that any more morally correct or is it the same thing with just fewer winnings?

Honestly, I do think they're both idiots for talking about it, while livestreaming no less lol. But it's the rational thing to do. It's hard to blame them.


This is getting more and more comical!? Now you bring in utility theory? Are you aware that two risk averse players always maximize their risk adjusted utility in case of a 50:50 win scenario, even if the prize pool is static?
Sure it is more fair if one of them steps back from the tournament, if he never intended to win it, but only to make his partner win in the first place. Like this he gives the chance to a player who actually wants to compete. I would have preferred if they had both participated and tried their best, to see who actually wins. But this seems just asked too much, right?
Dandel Ion
Profile Joined November 2010
Austria17960 Posts
December 22 2010 10:20 GMT
#464
If you want to cheat, don't be stupid enough to stream it to the whole world.
Don't ask the officials if you can cheat, pleeeease?

Players will always cheat in one way or another. Sure it's immoral and everything, but you can't really stop it. So nobody cares, really.

If you get cought, you deserve every flame, BM and negative PR you get. Because you were stupid enough to actually get caught.
And let's be honest here, none of us would've probably even heard of this tournament if it wasn't for this.
A backwards poet writes inverse.
Askesis
Profile Joined September 2010
216 Posts
December 22 2010 10:20 GMT
#465
On December 22 2010 19:00 MythicalMage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 18:57 Askesis wrote:
On December 22 2010 18:37 ParasitJonte wrote:
The organizers provide an incentive to do things like this

The only problem I see is that Morrow and SjoW shouldn't be stupid enough to talk about it in the open. But no one can really blame them for doing what is rational.

Here's the small change that supposedly changes everything:

- The prize money goes to the player that has won the most tournaments (and there is no increment in prize money if you win a certain number of tournaments).

What would be the result? They would probably just have agreed to share the prize pool. Or, they would never have agreed on anything. Basically, the organizers have brought this on themselves.


So it's not the cheater's fault for cheating; it's the tournament's fault for having a structure where cheaters have a better chance for more money than players who play by the rules?

How does it feel being a complete moron?

I ask myself that every day, and I think you should too. =] Plus I wouldn't call this cheating. It's like "Hey friend have a new computer."If they were already in the finals anyway, and didn't cheat to get there. . .I don't see the issue. It's Sjow's choice, and if he willingly gives it up, who cares?

My ONLY complaint is that they took away some good games from the viewers. It'd be better if they played and then one of them stepped down afterwards or something.


Because the prize is not Sjow's to give Morrow! JHave you even read the thread or know how the prizes are structured?

If it was something like "first prize wins $1000 and second wins $500", and the players agreed to split it $750 each, then whatever.

However, the tournament is not structured like that. The 6k computer is only given to a player if he pulls the incredible feat of winning 11 of 18 tournaments. There is a huge chance that nobody will get that prize. Sjow and Morrow tried to work together to ensure that they won the prize by forfeiting/throwing the finals to guarantee that one of them will hit the required (and very hard to legitimately get) 11 wins, instead of actually competing, where both of them might win some, but not the 11 required to get the big prize. They are taking a prize that is designed not to be won (because taking 11 of 18 tournaments legitimately is very difficult), and trying to work together to make sure that they win it. That's cheating.

joban
Profile Joined September 2010
179 Posts
December 22 2010 10:21 GMT
#466
Speaking of tournament systems that set up and even potentially reward unethical play, is anyone else worried about the GSL format as well?

The fact that there are teams like oGs that have multiple players in each group during the group stages could pose a problem. Hypothetically if there are 2 oGs players in one group and one player has already clinched qualification for the next round- don't you think the guy who clinched would give his teammate a free win when they played? I don't know if precautions have already been instated to prevent this, but that could be bad, in my opinion
Telcontar
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom16710 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-22 10:24:55
December 22 2010 10:24 GMT
#467
On December 22 2010 19:16 decemberscalm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 19:15 Telcontar wrote:
On December 22 2010 19:00 MythicalMage wrote:
On December 22 2010 18:57 Askesis wrote:
On December 22 2010 18:37 ParasitJonte wrote:
The organizers provide an incentive to do things like this

The only problem I see is that Morrow and SjoW shouldn't be stupid enough to talk about it in the open. But no one can really blame them for doing what is rational.

Here's the small change that supposedly changes everything:

- The prize money goes to the player that has won the most tournaments (and there is no increment in prize money if you win a certain number of tournaments).

What would be the result? They would probably just have agreed to share the prize pool. Or, they would never have agreed on anything. Basically, the organizers have brought this on themselves.


So it's not the cheater's fault for cheating; it's the tournament's fault for having a structure where cheaters have a better chance for more money than players who play by the rules?

How does it feel being a complete moron?

I ask myself that every day, and I think you should too. =] Plus I wouldn't call this cheating. It's like "Hey friend have a new computer."If they were already in the finals anyway, and didn't cheat to get there. . .I don't see the issue. It's Sjow's choice, and if he willingly gives it up, who cares?

My ONLY complaint is that they took away some good games from the viewers. It'd be better if they played and then one of them stepped down afterwards or something.


This is my one and only problem with what they were planning to do. If they got to the finals on their own merit, fair enough. However to taint that by fixing the finals is grossly unprofessional whether or not it's within the rules.
Read the thread, there are no viewers.

Doesn't make it any less unprofessional. Should athletes and sports teams be allowed to fix matches if there are no spectators (i.e football teams playing behind closed doors as punishment)?
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.
blackh3d
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia49 Posts
December 22 2010 10:24 GMT
#468
Have they cheated? No.

It's like saying "I'm going to steal from you" when I have not clearly committed the act.

So does that make me a thief just because I say it?

I don't see why the allegations thrown against them when they've allegedly discussed it but have yet to act on it.

If you have proof that they've done it, then by all means, call them matchfixers. but if no crime has been done, you can't simply go around claiming they're matchfixing.
ParasitJonte
Profile Joined September 2004
Sweden1768 Posts
December 22 2010 10:25 GMT
#469
On December 22 2010 19:13 domovoi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 19:09 Askesis wrote:
So the tournament isn't getting screwed by having to pay out thousands more in prizes than if the tournament was ran without colluding players?

Not this tournament, no. Because now, the odds they pay out the higher prize has increased since SjoW isn't participating. They're still colluding to maximize the prize pool, but I guess now people don't really mind.


You sir, have the right idea.
Hello=)
bech
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark162 Posts
December 22 2010 10:26 GMT
#470
I dont really care much tbh - matchfixing is only a problem so far as if you have money riding on the tournament - and since this is SC2, you really dont. There are no odds to be cheated.. Only person who loses anything of real value is the person agreeing to lose.
XplayN.com - Danish SC2 news and events.
MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
December 22 2010 10:27 GMT
#471
On December 22 2010 19:20 Askesis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 19:00 MythicalMage wrote:
On December 22 2010 18:57 Askesis wrote:
On December 22 2010 18:37 ParasitJonte wrote:
The organizers provide an incentive to do things like this

The only problem I see is that Morrow and SjoW shouldn't be stupid enough to talk about it in the open. But no one can really blame them for doing what is rational.

Here's the small change that supposedly changes everything:

- The prize money goes to the player that has won the most tournaments (and there is no increment in prize money if you win a certain number of tournaments).

What would be the result? They would probably just have agreed to share the prize pool. Or, they would never have agreed on anything. Basically, the organizers have brought this on themselves.


So it's not the cheater's fault for cheating; it's the tournament's fault for having a structure where cheaters have a better chance for more money than players who play by the rules?

How does it feel being a complete moron?

I ask myself that every day, and I think you should too. =] Plus I wouldn't call this cheating. It's like "Hey friend have a new computer."If they were already in the finals anyway, and didn't cheat to get there. . .I don't see the issue. It's Sjow's choice, and if he willingly gives it up, who cares?

My ONLY complaint is that they took away some good games from the viewers. It'd be better if they played and then one of them stepped down afterwards or something.


Because the prize is not Sjow's to give Morrow! JHave you even read the thread or know how the prizes are structured?

If it was something like "first prize wins $1000 and second wins $500", and the players agreed to split it $750 each, then whatever.

However, the tournament is not structured like that. The 6k computer is only given to a player if he pulls the incredible feat of winning 11 of 18 tournaments. There is a huge chance that nobody will get that prize. Sjow and Morrow tried to work together to ensure that they won the prize by forfeiting/throwing the finals to guarantee that one of them will hit the required (and very hard to legitimately get) 11 wins, instead of actually competing, where both of them might win some, but not the 11 required to get the big prize. They are taking a prize that is designed not to be won (because taking 11 of 18 tournaments legitimately is very difficult), and trying to work together to make sure that they win it. That's cheating.


Eh. That's technically cheating in the strictest sense, but the thing that hits me is that they're the only two who could win it, in their minds. So instead of no one having it, one of them is saying "Why don't I give it to you?" So instead of wasting this awesome computer, they saw the opportunity and they're taking it.
ParasitJonte
Profile Joined September 2004
Sweden1768 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-22 10:30:22
December 22 2010 10:27 GMT
#472
On December 22 2010 19:19 MiraMax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 19:02 ParasitJonte wrote:
You have to reduce it to the situation they were imagining.

They were thinking that the only 2 good players capable of winning would be themself. Therefore you can skip the whole tournament thing. Just think of it as 18 1v1s where the prize pool is not static. More wins for one player means more prizes.

Now, they calculated that their expected value would be maximized if one of them won 11 games and they shared the prizes. Probably because neither of them is confident that they can win more than ~65% of the games against the other player.

In that situation it only makes sense to cooperate. Doing anything else is stupid. This should be plain for all to see.

What are they going to do now? Well, now only one person will be playing. So, given that there were only 2 persons capable of winning in the first place, there are now 18 1v1s where one person has automatically forfeited. And they will share the prize money; except now they won't get the second place prizes.

Is that any more morally correct or is it the same thing with just fewer winnings?

Honestly, I do think they're both idiots for talking about it, while livestreaming no less lol. But it's the rational thing to do. It's hard to blame them.


This is getting more and more comical!? Now you bring in utility theory? Are you aware that two risk averse players always maximize their risk adjusted utility in case of a 50:50 win scenario, even if the prize pool is static?
Sure it is more fair if one of them steps back from the tournament, if he never intended to win it, but only to make his partner win in the first place. Like this he gives the chance to a player who actually wants to compete. I would have preferred if they had both participated and tried their best, to see who actually wins. But this seems just asked too much, right?


Yeah I actually do think it's asking too much (I don't know much about utility theory and what not so I can't comment on that).

I think this quote is the best I have seen in this entire thread:

Here's what they should do now. Both should enter the tournaments, playing as hard as they can. If after 16 games they are 8-8, then one should just drop out.


Edit: excepts it's off by one game LoL ! Should be after 14 games I guess.
Hello=)
Telcontar
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom16710 Posts
December 22 2010 10:29 GMT
#473
On December 22 2010 19:24 blackh3d wrote:
Have they cheated? No.

It's like saying "I'm going to steal from you" when I have not clearly committed the act.

So does that make me a thief just because I say it?

I don't see why the allegations thrown against them when they've allegedly discussed it but have yet to act on it.

If you have proof that they've done it, then by all means, call them matchfixers. but if no crime has been done, you can't simply go around claiming they're matchfixing.

Of course everyone knows they haven't actually done anything because the tournament hasn't happened yet!

However there is the matter of 'intent'. If you caught olympic athletes talking to each other about doping or fixing results before the games, should everyone just not make a big deal because it hasn't happened yet? The fact that they're even considering and planning it brings the tournament and the whole sport into disrepute.
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
December 22 2010 10:29 GMT
#474
On December 22 2010 19:24 Telcontar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 19:16 decemberscalm wrote:
On December 22 2010 19:15 Telcontar wrote:
On December 22 2010 19:00 MythicalMage wrote:
On December 22 2010 18:57 Askesis wrote:
On December 22 2010 18:37 ParasitJonte wrote:
The organizers provide an incentive to do things like this

The only problem I see is that Morrow and SjoW shouldn't be stupid enough to talk about it in the open. But no one can really blame them for doing what is rational.

Here's the small change that supposedly changes everything:

- The prize money goes to the player that has won the most tournaments (and there is no increment in prize money if you win a certain number of tournaments).

What would be the result? They would probably just have agreed to share the prize pool. Or, they would never have agreed on anything. Basically, the organizers have brought this on themselves.


So it's not the cheater's fault for cheating; it's the tournament's fault for having a structure where cheaters have a better chance for more money than players who play by the rules?

How does it feel being a complete moron?

I ask myself that every day, and I think you should too. =] Plus I wouldn't call this cheating. It's like "Hey friend have a new computer."If they were already in the finals anyway, and didn't cheat to get there. . .I don't see the issue. It's Sjow's choice, and if he willingly gives it up, who cares?

My ONLY complaint is that they took away some good games from the viewers. It'd be better if they played and then one of them stepped down afterwards or something.


This is my one and only problem with what they were planning to do. If they got to the finals on their own merit, fair enough. However to taint that by fixing the finals is grossly unprofessional whether or not it's within the rules.
Read the thread, there are no viewers.

Doesn't make it any less unprofessional. Should athletes and sports teams be allowed to fix matches if there are no spectators (i.e football teams playing behind closed doors as punishment)?

Oh, my apologies, that was directed to the quote above the one I quoted saying about how the his only complain is taking away good games from the viewers.

A response to the one I originally quoted about it being unprofressional. If its in the rules and they have a higher chance of getting a better prize, what is tainted or unprofessional about that? If its in the rules, every player whos got a buddy in the tourney would be doing the same thing in their situation and noone would criticize their professionalism.
MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
December 22 2010 10:29 GMT
#475
On December 22 2010 19:21 joban wrote:
Speaking of tournament systems that set up and even potentially reward unethical play, is anyone else worried about the GSL format as well?

The fact that there are teams like oGs that have multiple players in each group during the group stages could pose a problem. Hypothetically if there are 2 oGs players in one group and one player has already clinched qualification for the next round- don't you think the guy who clinched would give his teammate a free win when they played? I don't know if precautions have already been instated to prevent this, but that could be bad, in my opinion

Yeah, that does seem an issue. The solution would be to have two oGs and two Primes in a group, or however you want to structure it. Or maybe four oGs but that's a little extreme.
TotalBiscuit
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom5437 Posts
December 22 2010 10:29 GMT
#476
On December 22 2010 14:57 ShootingStars wrote:
your point? if you arent the better player it doesnt matter really =/
if you want to stop them from match fixing, go to the tournament and beat them so they cant fix the final
matchfixing is FINE. it doesnt affect you... they ARE top players.


Wait, what the fuck? You best be trolling.
CommentatorHost of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft
ParasitJonte
Profile Joined September 2004
Sweden1768 Posts
December 22 2010 10:31 GMT
#477
On December 22 2010 19:29 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 14:57 ShootingStars wrote:
your point? if you arent the better player it doesnt matter really =/
if you want to stop them from match fixing, go to the tournament and beat them so they cant fix the final
matchfixing is FINE. it doesnt affect you... they ARE top players.


Wait, what the fuck? You best be trolling.


I don't think he was. I just think the internet hit another new low !
Hello=)
Askesis
Profile Joined September 2010
216 Posts
December 22 2010 10:31 GMT
#478
On December 22 2010 19:11 domovoi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 19:05 Askesis wrote:
Sigh. This is not the same as poker chopping; not in the slightest. I've already said this before, but you can equate it to poker by having players collude to win the Full Tilt Daily Double bonuses, which is STRICTLY PROHIBITED.

Strictly prohibited not because it hurts other players but because it increases the house's risk of payouts. But if a site doesn't have a rule against it, I don't see it as immoral to do it.


And that's exactly what the 6k computer is: a risk of a payout that the house (tournament) if offering. The players were trying to collude to win an individual nonguaranteed bonus prize. And yes, there are rules against collusion.

What are you arguing? I'm not really sure.
Askesis
Profile Joined September 2010
216 Posts
December 22 2010 10:32 GMT
#479
On December 22 2010 19:18 domovoi wrote:
Here's what they should do now. Both should enter the tournaments, playing as hard as they can. If after 16 games they are 8-8, then one should just drop out.


Your numbers are off. If they go 8-8 after 16, the other can win the other two and get 10 wins, but not the required 11 for the computer.
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
December 22 2010 10:33 GMT
#480
On December 22 2010 19:29 Telcontar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 19:24 blackh3d wrote:
Have they cheated? No.

It's like saying "I'm going to steal from you" when I have not clearly committed the act.

So does that make me a thief just because I say it?

I don't see why the allegations thrown against them when they've allegedly discussed it but have yet to act on it.

If you have proof that they've done it, then by all means, call them matchfixers. but if no crime has been done, you can't simply go around claiming they're matchfixing.

Of course everyone knows they haven't actually done anything because the tournament hasn't happened yet!

However there is the matter of 'intent'. If you caught olympic athletes talking to each other about doping or fixing results before the games, should everyone just not make a big deal because it hasn't happened yet? The fact that they're even considering and planning it brings the tournament and the whole sport into disrepute.

The difference here is that the "athletes" are idly discussing it in a public stream and might not be aware of whether its legal or not where as you better believe Olympic athletes would be. You can discuss a plan without knowing its legality, and then ask if its allowed. For all intents and purposes this seems like what happened from what was said in the stream.
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