EPTDiscussing the lack of top female starcraft gamers - Page 28
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SPACETIME
Canada48 Posts
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IamaGrapeMan
Canada165 Posts
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fush
Canada563 Posts
On January 26 2011 03:18 ParasitJonte wrote: As usual people are giving way too much credit to things that are probably not of greatest importance (cultural acceptance etc.). The variance among males is simply higher. This is true regardless of where you look: math, cooking, sports, playing games. The very best and the very worst are always males. If all cultural barriers were removed there would surely be a lot more female players in diamond and masters. But the tournaments would almost always end with a male winner. That's just how it is. how can you show that cultural limitations are less important than biological ones? you claim at the end that the removal of these barriers would see more female players in a hypothetical situation, right after you say they aren't important? a little logical loophole there imo. and even with all these studies showing some form of "advantage" in males in some performance task, we are still missing the developmental angle where perhaps the development of such skills are hindered by activities that aren't encouraged in females at younger ages. can you say for sure that a woman raised under no social/cultural limitations with a man will be biologically less capable of playing sc2 than her counterpart? | ||
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IamaGrapeMan
Canada165 Posts
On January 05 2011 21:16 MerciLess wrote: Women don't have the same level of hand-eye coordination, reflexes, and many other innate qualities of a level to compete with men at video games. It's simple biology, to claim perfect equality in the interest of being politically correct is stupid. Also, their brains are not wired for video games, and especially playing them competitively, like ours are. I don't understand how it's even a question of why there is a "lack" of top female, gamers, it seems obvious to me. the problem is that it seems obvious to you. you're just restating a widespread belief. we can find cases where females have better hand eye coordination than males. "to claim perfect equality in the interest of being politically correct is stupid." ?_? what does being politically correct have to do with this? | ||
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fush
Canada563 Posts
On January 26 2011 05:32 IamaGrapeMan wrote: the problem is that it seems obvious to you. you're just restating a widespread belief. we can find cases where females have better hand eye coordination than males. "to claim perfect equality in the interest of being politically correct is stupid." ?_? what does being politically correct have to do with this? i love how quotes like this pop up as if they know it for sure after reading some wrongly interpreted article online. if you ask the scientists who conduct those studies, they will tell you that while they found certain differences, they can't say that it can be directly translated into anything - in this case sc2. if they do, they better have some damn well controlled proof (and probably a nature or science paper) to say women are "innately" inferior to men in those attributes. innate is a pretty strong word, far too casually used in this thread. | ||
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vicg
United States6 Posts
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fush
Canada563 Posts
On January 26 2011 05:50 vicg wrote: If you just look at society you can see your answer. The reason why these cultural barriers exist is because the grand majority of women are not interested in competitive things. Males on the other hand have a need to be competitive thats biologically driven. If this was false do you believe that society would have developed the way it has? Stereotypes and cultural barriers don't develop without reason. Men did not force women to avoid competitive sports or games. Just biologically women were never predisposed to competitiveness and thus when an exception appears they are usually singled out as being strange and labelled maybe as a tom boy. biologically predisposed to be less competitive? really? and you make it sound so easy. why don't you prove it? before that, how about you define competition? frankly i think you have a huge misunderstanding of what it means to be able to make a statement like that. men did not force women to avoid competitive sports and games? actually.... up until maybe 100 years ago, they did. | ||
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IamaGrapeMan
Canada165 Posts
On January 26 2011 05:50 vicg wrote: If you just look at society you can see your answer. The reason why these cultural barriers exist is because the grand majority of women are not interested in competitive things. Males on the other hand have a need to be competitive thats biologically driven. If this was false do you believe that society would have developed the way it has? Stereotypes and cultural barriers don't develop without reason. Men did not force women to avoid competitive sports or games. Just biologically women were never predisposed to competitiveness and thus when an exception appears they are usually singled out as being strange and labelled maybe as a tom boy. rofl "men did not force women to avoid competitive sports or games." i find that statement hilarious. we've been repressing females for millennia. you're expressing the common misconception that things are the way they are for a reason. people need to stop using this tired biology argument. | ||
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vicg
United States6 Posts
On January 26 2011 06:01 IamaGrapeMan wrote: rofl "men did not force women to avoid competitive sports or games." i find that statement hilarious. we've been repressing females for millennia. you're expressing the common misconception that things are the way they are for a reason. people need to stop using this tired biology argument. I don't think you understand what I am trying to say, men have not oppressed women since the dawn of time, these things developed as a result of our biological characteristics. Now that everyone is becoming more educated we are realizing how some of our past practices are ridiculous. | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2748 Posts
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
Also, yeah, unless you have a degree in Biology or Genetics or something, don't run to that. Biology is a very tricky thing to pin down as a cause and more often then not, isn't even a factor so much as societal pressures and norms. *Edit* Another note on the biology thing, your interpretation of gender has been developed by your societal influences. There are many cultures in Asia, Africa and the like, where they are totally matriarchal and women call the shots. Being of female sex does not automatically denote weakness in our species or any other. | ||
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fush
Canada563 Posts
On January 26 2011 06:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Women are definitely competitive. Just their competitive outlet tends to be different based on society's gender roles. In fact, they can get down right vicious. I mean look at a high school girls, comparing all manner of accessory or clothing, grades, stuff like that. Social status is another good example. I'm sure someone more informed then I can give the complex reasons that lead them to use these and other things as their competitive outlets (its branching more now), but women are as competitive as men are. Also, yeah, unless you have a degree in Biology or Genetics or something, don't run to that. Biology is a very tricky thing to pin down as a cause and more often then not, isn't even a factor so much as societal pressures and norms. exactly. i agree 100%. the brain is too plastic to have been hard coded for competitiveness, hand-eye coordination, and what not as many people tend to wrongfully believe. these things all start piecing together developmentally, and societal pressures and cultural factors play a big role in the things we do when young that help develop these traits. | ||
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Duravi
United States1205 Posts
Most Male Posters: It is nature. Most Female Posters: It is nurture. Reality: It is both. | ||
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
On January 26 2011 06:20 fush wrote: exactly. i agree 100%. the brain is too plastic to have been hard coded for competitiveness, hand-eye coordination, and what not as many people tend to wrongfully believe. these things all start piecing together developmentally, and societal pressures and cultural factors play a big role in the things we do when young that help develop these traits. Furthermore, your very DNA and what is represented is heavily influenced by your environment, to the point where you can even display traits not hard coded into the DNA. Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics | ||
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Vei
United States2845 Posts
she's also quite good/logical at understanding the game, better than me (sometimes? often times?) and i have a superior Y chromosome! | ||
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
On January 26 2011 06:22 Duravi wrote: This whole thread can be summarized very easily: Most Male Posters: It is nature. Most Female Posters: It is nurture. Reality: It is both. I'm a male, and in so far as women with e-sports, its 99% nurture and 1% nature. There is nothing inherent in e-sports that necessitates three legs. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
Chess is just one example. Now I am not saying that women might be more represented at high levels if there were more women competing in things like chess or starcraft, but I think it should be clear that men have faculties that women rarely can match when it comes to these things. | ||
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SichuanPanda
Canada1542 Posts
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
On January 26 2011 06:34 travis wrote: I think there are fundamental differences in the way men and women's brains work that play a large role in this. I mean, there are lots of women chess players. But the very top female chess player, the absolute best top prodigy female chess player. Where does she rank compared to men? Chess is just one example. Now I am not saying that women might be more represented at high levels if there were more women competing in things like chess or starcraft, but I think it should be clear that men have faculties that women rarely can match when it comes to these things. I would agree with you if it came to something like lifting weights, but nothing is the brain is really all that clear. When it comes to mental challenges, I have never come across a problem and woman couldn't do but a man could. Think about it, in grade school boys and girls are treated virtually the same and their worlds allow for very selective influences to engender them. They are capable of the same things, but as time progresses, they are engendered and split, with different values and goals imbued upon them by society. | ||
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skrzmark
United States1528 Posts
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