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On November 23 2010 07:33 Kpyolysis32 wrote:
Also, if they plan to just get rid of the top 200 list, and do grandmaster league by MMR, we should still be able to find out the tier of divisions in Diamond and below (Or does Master have them, and just not Grandmaster? In that case, Master and below) by watch people's change in points as they promote between divisioned leagues and nondivisioned ones. Blizzard could circumvent this by having all players enter the divisionless leagues with 0 points, but it seems unlikely to me, because it would mean that you promote to a number of points that's not based on your MMR, and would mess with the relationship between the two.
This is unfortunately not really possible because the points you lose when being promoted do not always match up to a multiple of 63.
On November 23 2010 07:53 c0ldfusion wrote:
Excalibur_Z, am I off base here? Or is this roughly right and entails quite a bit of effort and skill to try to get into a better division?
As stated, your division offset does not affect how easy/hard it is for you to be in the top 200, since they remove the bias introduced by those offsets.
Regarding the method to switch diamond divisions, you are close to correct. We now know that sigma does not play a direct role in promotion criteria. They instead use a moving average of your MMR. In general, however, you are right that you would have to game the system to force a demotion, then game the system again to get your MMR at the S-rank division level (which would be quite difficult). In any case, it is unnecessary.
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On November 23 2010 08:48 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 08:06 Kpyolysis32 wrote:
c0ldfusion, why would you even want to get into a "better division"? There's no benefit to being S-tier over E-tier or anything of the sort, as both make it equally easy for you to make top 200, and MMR is used for matchmaking, so your points don't even effect who you play. In fact, I would even venture to say that the only real difference is bragging rights (ohoho, I have sooo many points!), which an E-tier division would actually be better for. Well, I'm not particularly motivated to do this. But once people can figure out what level division they belong to, I'd imagine that the division would matter more than their rank (at least for -relatively- inactive players, as stated in the OP). Right now, the entire problem stems from the fact that points don't really mean anything given divisional differences, MMR could potentially be indicative of skill but we can't see our MMR and apparently top 200 does not even directly use MMR, and divisional rank is really only be useful if you know that you're in an "S" class division. Maybe none of this would matter once master and grandmaster leagues come into play. Though we also have no idea when they will be implemented. Last edit: 2010-11-23 08:51:03
I don't think this is really true. Once people can figure out what level division they belong to, they can just adjust their score accordingly, and points will still be about as indicative of skill as they were back when we thought they were constant across division. And, if people don't know their division, then there's no reason they'd be motivated to change anyways. Your division's tier doesn't actually say much about your skill, so I don't think people would be particularly motivated to change theirs.
Also, I am greatly anticipating Master and Grandmaster league's releases, hopefully they'll make things far less opaque.
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On November 23 2010 07:47 isospeedrix wrote:
I'm pretty sure I'm in a very low class division (not on the list). However I'm consistently being matched up against people 200-300 points higher than me and bliz calls it "Teams Even." It makes me angry that some 2400 that obviously outclasses me is a even match and I lose 12 points for that.
Here's my understanding:
If you're being matched against someone 200-300 points higher than you and it says "teams even," they're most likely higher in points due to the combination of accrued bonus points and division modifiers.
Unless you know the actual division modifiers and how many bonus points they've accrued, you won't be able to guess what their MMR is, assuming they've played enough games that their corrected points are an approximation of MMR.
(Or did I get that wrong?)
In any case, those displayed point numbers don't tell you precisely how good someone is.
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I thought Teams Favored/Even/what not were based on MMR only.
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Quick question.
I had about 2040 points when I was matched against this guy from Hartley Nu with about 2080 points after the game. B.net claimed it was team even, so does it make my division a B rank division? or this is solely due to MMR and irrelevant? Is it possible that division modifier IS our MMR?
I am from Viking Romeo, and our division has no top 200. I am pretty sure our division is not S rank, because then syckness probably would have made the list.
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Question:
Where is Diamond Devision Lassatar Psi on your rankings?
Does a promotion and loss of pts relate to your Division of Tiers?
I just got promoted from Platinum to Diamond Division "Lassatar Psi". I had roughly 1598 pts before the match that promoted me, and once the promotion came.. i now have 1482 points.
This Division isn't on your list. Does this loss of ~126 pts relate to your modifier?
I never realized I lost pts during a promotion either.
Bnet ID: Ahri.345 if it helps
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On November 23 2010 09:53 CECExautik wrote:
Question:
Where is Diamond Devision Lassatar Psi on your rankings?
Does a promotion and loss of pts relate to your Division of Tiers?
I just got promoted from Platinum to Diamond Division "Lassatar Psi". I had roughly 1598 pts before the match that promoted me, and once the promotion came.. i now have 1482 points.
This Division isn't on your list. Does this loss of ~126 pts relate to your modifier?
I never realized I lost pts during a promotion either.
Bnet ID: Ahri.345 if it helps
Your division top guy doesn't have enough points to show up at top 200 list.
So you could be anywhere from 1750 to 2500 rank. Though obviously a lot divisions are missing so it might be even bigger gap. If your division is S-class you are around 1750 spot but lower the class more bottom rank you are.
SC2ranks shows 498 pages of players and masters page has 57. So lot of players are missing from this list still.
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On November 23 2010 09:31 SovSov wrote:
I thought Teams Favored/Even/what not were based on MMR only.
I'm pretty sure that it's your points compared to their MMR. The problem with MMR compared to MMR would come up in a situation like this: You have 200 points and exactly 800 MMR, you are playing against opponents with exactly 800 MMR too and staying even. You play 10000 games, win 5000, and lose 5000. Because your MMRs were the same, your points after that series are also exactly the same (excluding bonus pool, which is irrelevant). This is a problem, because your points need to converge to your MMR in all situations.
If it is your points compared to their MMR, and you have the same situation, your points will rise until they hit 800, because they are below the other guy's MMR and he is "favored", then stop rising when they get there, because they are equal to it and it is "teams even." Favored/Even is not designed to actually inform anyone about their skill relative to their opponent, just to make MMR and points converge.
On November 23 2010 09:43 KaienFEMC wrote:
Quick question.
I had about 2040 points when I was matched against this guy from Hartley Nu with about 2080 points after the game. B.net claimed it was team even, so does it make my division a B rank division? or this is solely due to MMR and irrelevant? Is it possible that division modifier IS our MMR?
I am from Viking Romeo, and our division has no top 200. I am pretty sure our division is not S rank, because then syckness probably would have made the list.
No, teams even has nothing to do with anything for this. You were matched based on your hidden MMR, and teams even just meant that your points were approximately equal to his MMR. Division Modifier equaling MMR is also completely irrational; There's simply no way it could make sense to have a uniform and static number that represents to skill of an entire group of 100 people
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United States12237 Posts
On November 23 2010 09:43 KaienFEMC wrote:
Quick question.
I had about 2040 points when I was matched against this guy from Hartley Nu with about 2080 points after the game. B.net claimed it was team even, so does it make my division a B rank division? or this is solely due to MMR and irrelevant? Is it possible that division modifier IS our MMR?
I am from Viking Romeo, and our division has no top 200. I am pretty sure our division is not S rank, because then syckness probably would have made the list.
Your MMR is still hidden and is not related to these offsets in any way. Remember that it's your opponent's MMR compared with your displayed rating that shows who is favored or whether the teams are even in each game. If your opponent's MMR is stable at B-Rank 2080 (which again, is hidden, so we don't know) then that would be strong evidence toward your division being B-Rank. The bottom line is that there's no way to know for sure if you don't have a member in the Top 200, because that's the only place where we can determine the tiers.
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Also, this reminds me. Excal, do you think it would be possible to determine people's MMRs by looking at the range of people they are considered to be "Teams Even" against? I don't think it's actually viable, because it would take a fairly large number of games to find the upper and lower bounds for where they are still "Teams Even," and in the span of those games, their MMR would change. It seems like there might be something there, though..
And also, it's probably a good idea to mention that Favored/Even adjusts for division modifier and bonus pool before it displays it, so that the relationship between MMR and points doesn't get skewed by idle time or division.
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United States12237 Posts
On November 23 2010 10:25 Kpyolysis32 wrote:
Also, this reminds me. Excal, do you think it would be possible to determine people's MMRs by looking at the range of people they are considered to be "Teams Even" against? I don't think it's actually viable, because it would take a fairly large number of games to find the upper and lower bounds for where they are still "Teams Even," and in the span of those games, their MMR would change. It seems like there might be something there, though..
And also, it's probably a good idea to mention that Favored/Even adjusts for division modifier and bonus pool before it displays it, so that the relationship between MMR and points doesn't get skewed by idle time or division.
I think even if the division system were completely transparent, there still wouldn't be a way to determine MMR. Part of the problem is not only that your MMR is hidden, but the MMR of your opponent is also hidden. We don't know how much it fluctuates after each game, we don't know what the exact value or even the overall MMR range of the ladder is, we don't know anything about it.
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My division, lannassa phi isnt on the list. Need data from it or anything? I want to know what i need to aim for for top 200 
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On November 23 2010 15:35 az2 wrote:My division, lannassa phi isnt on the list. Need data from it or anything? I want to know what i need to aim for for top 200
Until you or anyone from your division gets into the top 200, there is no way to know.
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United States12237 Posts
On November 23 2010 15:35 az2 wrote:My division, lannassa phi isnt on the list. Need data from it or anything? I want to know what i need to aim for for top 200
I think it's A-Rank, but I wasn't able to confirm that from last week's data (since I couldn't go back far enough in that player's history), and nobody from Lenassa Phi is in this week's Top 200.
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So far, we haven't seen any divisions with modifiers over 315. #200 this week was 2,352. Assuming the modifiers go above 315, you need at least 2,667 to be in the top 200. A more up to date number would be http://sc2ranks.com/masters/100, you have to be points + 315 from whoever is #200 on the list and you should be able to make it into the top 200.
[edit] Blasted Excal. If you assume you're A-Rank, then you would need to be + 63 not + 315, so 2,415 instead of 2,667.
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my division Dragoon Pepper isnt even on any of those 57 pages. my friend in my divisoin is 2400+ pts. im currently at 2100+ pts with 55+% win ratio. i dont get how this ranking would work..
what if someone got placed in a bad division, nd then got better nd turned out to be an amazing player over practice..
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On November 23 2010 17:34 JDM.s2000 wrote:
my division Dragoon Pepper isnt even on any of those 57 pages. my friend in my divisoin is 2400+ pts. im currently at 2100+ pts with 55+% win ratio. i dont get how this ranking would work..
what if someone got placed in a bad division, nd then got better nd turned out to be an amazing player over practice..
Then he'd be in the horrible position of allaboutyou, having a displayed rating 200 points higher than his actual one.
How absurdly terrifying! His friends will crucify him immediately.
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Love the work!
Are their any plans to do this for EU or SEA soon? I'd be interested in SEA because i'd like to see what it takes to get into the top 200 for me, since i went inactive for a month on SEA and came back, my MMR is still very high but my points are low, so i always get less points than others. Just curious!
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So best way to get into top ranking. Wait til reset, get diamond fastest, then save bonus pool for 2 months and spam games to spend points.
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EPT
