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United States12240 Posts
On November 23 2010 04:49 MaxwelsDemoN wrote:
Awesome work man, really appreciate it. Didn't find this posted anywhere in the thread, how well did the predictions agree with Blizzard's top 200? You sounded pretty happy so was it pretty much spot on for all the divisions you had information for?
The snapshot for SC2Ranks' US Masters listing and this week's Top 200 were off by about an hour, but for players who hadn't played any games in that time period it was exactly right, which is awesome news.
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Finally, this was the last mystery of bnet2.0 rankings we got it all figured out now right? we still can't figure out our MMR though 
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Told you points don't translate across divisions. If only they didn't delete the beta forum, I could've just linked the blue post.
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United States12240 Posts
On November 23 2010 05:01 nttea wrote:Finally, this was the last mystery of bnet2.0 rankings we got it all figured out now right? we still can't figure out our MMR though
Not that you have to worry about that since you quit the game, right? 
Also I'm not planning on repeating this for KR, EU etc., but if anyone else in those regions wants to take on the task, then by all means please do so =) If you have any questions about my process, please ask. I tried to be as transparent as possible but I'm sure I failed to explain something.
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On November 23 2010 05:05 Ownos wrote:
Told you points don't translate across divisions. If only they didn't delete the beta forum, I could've just linked the blue post.
Even if there was a post, it was during beta and is meaningless since we had no way of proving either way if it was still accurate. We already got confirmation on this from Blizzard about a month or two ago.
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Don't really get it, but does this mean your rank is set when you join a division? Does this mean you're destined to be sucked when you get into one of those divisions?
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On November 23 2010 05:51 canikizu wrote:
Don't really get it, but does this mean your rank is set when you join a division? Does this mean you're destined to be sucked when you get into one of those divisions?
@canikizu: nope, it just means that if you are in a crappier division, your displayed rating will be higher than if you were in a better division. The top 200 factors this in, so it is not just about who has the highest displayed rating.
Excalibur, you should put some kind of FAQ at the top of the OP in simple language explaining why no one is "stuck" in a crappy division with no chance at the top 200. By far it is the most common misunderstanding of the information you figured out.
I can imagine this information getting out to the general public, who will misunderstand and cause a giant riot/panic about ratings.
On the other hand, this might cause blizzard to be a bit more transparent about the rating system, which would be nice.
Great work!
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Great analysis, I've been thinking this myself when I got placed into the upper ("S class") 2's and 3's divisions (there are alot less so its much easier to map the top class divisions).
Biggest question, and I'm sure others have asked too, and would appreciate if you could update your opening post with the answer is:
If this is true, why can't one promote/demote between divisions?
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Another question, there are hundreds of divisions. How many tiers are there? Are you going to map every single division? If not, then there has to be some kind of default tier that you would put a "no name" division into, ... perhaps stick all the no-name divisions into the E class (+315) or something?
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United States12240 Posts
On November 23 2010 05:58 Oconomist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 05:51 canikizu wrote:
Don't really get it, but does this mean your rank is set when you join a division? Does this mean you're destined to be sucked when you get into one of those divisions?
@canikizu: nope, it just means that if you are in a crappier division, your displayed rating will be higher than if you were in a better division. The top 200 factors this in, so it is not just about who has the highest displayed rating. Excalibur, you should put some kind of FAQ at the top of the OP in simple language explaining why no one is "stuck" in a crappy division with no chance at the top 200. By far it is the most common misunderstanding of the information you figured out. I can imagine this information getting out to the general public, who will misunderstand and cause a giant riot/panic about ratings. On the other hand, this might cause blizzard to be a bit more transparent about the rating system, which would be nice. Great work!
Fair enough. I added a small FAQ that should address these questions.
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Wait, this raises a really big question.
Blizzard has said the Grandmaster League will be the top 200 players.
League placement is clearly based on MMR.
The top 200 players are based on ladder points and division tier, and MMR has no bearing.
So..
What if your MMR is Master League or even Diamond League (maybe you switched races and went on a losing streak or something), but your points are still top 200?
I wonder how Blizzard plans to sort that out..
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Also, if they plan to just get rid of the top 200 list, and do grandmaster league by MMR, we should still be able to find out the tier of divisions in Diamond and below (Or does Master have them, and just not Grandmaster? In that case, Master and below) by watch people's change in points as they promote between divisioned leagues and nondivisioned ones. Blizzard could circumvent this by having all players enter the divisionless leagues with 0 points, but it seems unlikely to me, because it would mean that you promote to a number of points that's not based on your MMR, and would mess with the relationship between the two.
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Thanks, one thing that I find not inline from my perspective is-
I'm pretty sure I'm in a very low class division (not on the list). However I'm consistently being matched up against people 200-300 points higher than me and bliz calls it "Teams Even." It makes me angry that some 2400 that obviously outclasses me is a even match and I lose 12 points for that.
If my division were really a crappy division then I should be having even matches against people equal or lower points than me. Just my two cents.
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Well, if this is all true then it's terrible that you can't readily move out of your division.
In fact if division attribution within a league is determined by your MMR at the time of placement, to change your division, you would have to embark on an extremely circuitous journey.
You'd first have to lower your MMR by losing games, but this also increases your sigma. So after a rough estimate of how much MMR you've lost, you'll have to win one or two (and you'll have to gauge this by looking at the record/league of your opponent) to stabilize your sigma so you actually get demoted.
Now at this point you'll have to increase your MMR again without getting promoted too quickly. If you just play normally, after a few wins then you'll end up potentially end up in a similarly crappy diamond division as before (because your sigma is relatively small after being demoted).
To avoid this problem and to place in a better diamond division (if you belong in one) you'll have to make sure that your sigma is sufficiently large. That way as your MMR grows you would not be readily promoted.
Assuming that the ladder/MMR theories I've read are correct and that my understanding of these theories is correct, you'll have to consistently beat favored opponents while purposely losing to opponents in matches where you're favored. This will continue to increase your sigma while allowing your base MMR to remain roughly level.
Finally after crudely estimating that your sigma is large enough (again from looking at the record, league and division of your opponents), you can now start winning all your games. Your large sigma will ensure that you gain MMR very quickly while keeping you from getting promoted immediately. By the time you're eligible for promotion, your base MMR would then be high enough to get into a better division.
Excalibur_Z, am I off base here? Or is this roughly right and entails quite a bit of effort and skill to try to get into a better division?
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On November 23 2010 07:47 isospeedrix wrote:
Thanks, one thing that I find not inline from my perspective is-
I'm pretty sure I'm in a very low class division (not on the list). However I'm consistently being matched up against people 200-300 points higher than me and bliz calls it "Teams Even." It makes me angry that some 2400 that obviously outclasses me is a even match and I lose 12 points for that.
If my division were really a crappy division then I should be having even matches against people equal or lower points than me. Just my two cents.
Well tell more about your division. What is rank 1 points? maybe he/she just didn't get to top 200 list. Your division could be S-class.
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blizzard should just officially state how the ranking system works...
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I'm curious as to how we find out what "class" our division is
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On November 23 2010 07:47 isospeedrix wrote:
Thanks, one thing that I find not inline from my perspective is-
I'm pretty sure I'm in a very low class division (not on the list). However I'm consistently being matched up against people 200-300 points higher than me and bliz calls it "Teams Even." It makes me angry that some 2400 that obviously outclasses me is a even match and I lose 12 points for that.
If my division were really a crappy division then I should be having even matches against people equal or lower points than me. Just my two cents.
Teams even isn't related to this. The favored system exists only to make sure that MMRs equalize to points, and doesn't actually have anything to do with who the system thinks is better. I dón't remember specifically how it works, but I can give a general outline. If your MMR is higher than your points, and is matching you against people with more points because of it, then it will display them as slightly favored (or just favored) so that over time your points will rise and become equal to theirs, assuming you continue to play at the same level. If your MMR is pairing you against people with fewer points, then it will display you as slightly favored (or just favored), so your points will slowly fall to that level.
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c0ldfusion, why would you even want to get into a "better division"? There's no benefit to being S-tier over E-tier or anything of the sort, as both make it equally easy for you to make top 200, and MMR is used for matchmaking, so your points don't even effect who you play. In fact, I would even venture to say that the only real difference is bragging rights (ohoho, I have sooo many points!), which an E-tier division would actually be better for.
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On November 23 2010 08:06 Kpyolysis32 wrote:
c0ldfusion, why would you even want to get into a "better division"? There's no benefit to being S-tier over E-tier or anything of the sort, as both make it equally easy for you to make top 200, and MMR is used for matchmaking, so your points don't even effect who you play. In fact, I would even venture to say that the only real difference is bragging rights (ohoho, I have sooo many points!), which an E-tier division would actually be better for.
Well, I'm not particularly motivated to do this. But once people can figure out what level division they belong to, I'd imagine that the division would matter more than their rank (at least for -relatively- inactive players, as stated in the OP).
Right now, the entire problem stems from the fact that points don't really mean anything given divisional differences, MMR could potentially be indicative of skill but we can't see our MMR and apparently top 200 does not even directly use MMR, and divisional rank is really only be useful if you know that you're in an "S" class division.
Maybe none of this would matter once master and grandmaster leagues come into play. Though we also have no idea when they will be implemented.
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EPT
