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thehitman
1105 Posts
I think its better to change the position of the no ground, so that it closes of with 3 buildings without problems. Also the choke point close to the third mineral patch on both sides needs to be done so that 2 buildings can't block it off. Overall its an improvement, but you need to take into consideration my suggestions above. | ||
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Elean
689 Posts
On November 16 2010 16:43 actionbastrd wrote: all maps should be symmetrical, its really just that simple. why blizzard doesn't seem to think so is beyond me. Map balance is just as important as unit balance. All your changes are golden, or at the very very least an obvious improvement. Not so obvious to me. "Map balance is just as important as unit balance" ... or maybe we can even say that map balance is just as important as the balances between the races ? But balance between the races doesn't mean they should be the same... And to be honest, as a chess player, i don't even think that the map balance is so important in itself. In chess, white has the advantage over black, it does not ruin the game ... on the contrary. Scrap station is designed to be a mirror map, so I really like the proposed changes, it just correct the flaws of the original map. The symmetry is just the easiest way to have a balance between the spawning location. It doesn't mean that it is the only way, and that there can't be a good map without symmetry. What would you say if to balance the races, they had made symmetrical tech trees ? I think the game could have been more balanced this way... but much less interesting. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
It makes me sorta sad because this is something blizzard should be doing, not only because they apparently have hired their own map makers but also because it would breach a community stonewall in regards to map making in general. Good changes regardless, appreciate the effort it must have taken to fix positional imbalances on a blizzard map. | ||
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Nizaris
Belgium2230 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Not quite time to put it on the Blizzard forums yet, I want to get more votes and do some other things as well. Hasn't even been 24 hours of voting yet, I'm sure a lot of TL users haven't even seen the thread. For people rereading the thread, since a lot of people do not like my #3 change and would like the change to go in the other direction, I'd like some replies and discussions about that change in particular and the merits of doing it one way over the other. | ||
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CursedFeanor
Canada539 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
There's pretty much three reasons why I tightened the lefthand choke instead of widening the righthand choke. #1 - I feel like Scrap Station is already a Zerg favored map, and that the larger changes are more or less straight benefits for Zerg on this map. Therefor, for the smaller changes I decided to go with the options that seemed more advantageous to Protoss and Terran. #2 - I like early 2-gate pressure with chronoboosted Zealots, I think it's fun to watch, and I think it's a strategy that should be usable on most maps. However, the geography of this map makes this strategy extremely difficult, because of the huge rush distances. Not to mention it's just gone out of style in general. I pretty much never see 2-gate pressure on this map as is, even with the perfect 2 gate wall doable on the existing righthand spawn already. Therefor, I felt that it was safe to give this strategy a slight buff, considering it was already a pretty bad strategy for the map. #3 - I feel like walling at that position is kind of a bad idea anyway, because it makes the short rushpoint blocked by the rocks very exploitable, and it's far far away from your production facilities, forcing you to cover long distances just to get that bit of early pressure. Especially with the short air rush distance, I think a wall there would leave you vulnerable to Mutalisk or Banshee harass etc. The counterargument, and one that I think is solid, is that Scrap Station, and Blizzard maps in general, feel very enclosed and constricted, so why should we constrict the space even more. Is that what most people are thinking, or is there another argument there that I haven't thought of? | ||
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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
LT could do with some cliff editing too. Thor drops are stupidly good. | ||
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Perscienter
957 Posts
What do people have against your update #3? On November 17 2010 01:13 Elean wrote: And to be honest, as a chess player, i don't even think that the map balance is so important in itself. In chess, white has the advantage over black, it does not ruin the game ... on the contrary. White has a win percentage between 52% and 56%, but because one party has to move first. I consider 55% to be ok. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
For change #3, I think people are just against making the maps chokes any tighter than they already are, in general. I'd love it if people would voice their thoughts, though. | ||
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Perscienter
957 Posts
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Shakes
Australia557 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Plus there's open ground between the doodads for fix #1 and the edge of the station as is, so doing it that way would affect more cells than doing it the doodad way. I tried to find doodads that looked small and unobtrusive, if there are better ones let me know. In any case, since the demand to fix change #3 in the other direction has been pretty solid, I changed the map to reflect that. I'm uploading the new screenies and editing the post now, should be up to date soon. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
The map has been changed so that for our #3 change, it is now no longer possible to wall off at that spot with 2 buildings on either spawn. I'm doinz what you guys vote for. The map analyzer imagery is also posted, and because that showed the righthand main as being much smaller than it used to be (due to the ramp change), I enlarged the main slightly. That's up as a Change #5 with a new poll. If it's possible, could a mod edit the options of the change #3 poll, so that the Yes option is now "No, change it the other way (can wall here with 2 buildings on both spawns) and the No, change it the other way is the Yes option? If that's not possible without remaking the poll people will just have to vote intelligently. Thanks for all the feedback I've been getting guys, in both threads. This is my first time using the editor after all, and I want to make sure this is done in a way we're all in agreement with, so when I do post it on the Blizz forums in a day or two we can all get behind it. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Thanks to everybody who answered my PM's. I know I'm being a little persistent and annoying, but I don't think there's much of a shot of tournaments using this version without some credible community backing. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
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ptell
United States103 Posts
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Speedbump
New Zealand338 Posts
I think that Scrap Station will still be slightly (postitionally) imbalanced anyway; mainly due to anti-air placements on each side requiring a large amount of difference in areas that need to be covered, but that is not a major concern for me at my current level. Hopefully the changes make it slightly easier for Protoss in the PvZ match-up, although I'm not deep in my knowledge of how it plays out. IIRC, it's mainly hold off mutas (and then the roach/hydra transition) until Protoss can bust Zerg's third. Hopefully someone with more knowledge could help me there. XD | ||
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