EPTWhat's with this though:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/k1J1e.jpg)
Anyone care to elaborate on their vote? Why do we need gaps for banelings?
[D] Refined Scrap Station - Page 2
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
What's with this though: Anyone care to elaborate on their vote? Why do we need gaps for banelings? | ||
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orotoss
United States298 Posts
Change 1 makes it easier to wall off with barracks/gateways, making it harder for speedlings. Change 2 makes it easier to wall of the natural. You would only do this against zerg and zerg can't exploit this for their own benefit. Change 3 also makes wall-offs easier. Once again, zerg isn't gonna be building stuff here to wall off, and T and P are only gonna do this against zerg. Change 4 specifically makes it harder for zerg. The only change that helped zerg was the creep tumor thing and that was simply to make the map symmetrical. 50% of the time you face zerg on this map, they already have this shorter creep spread distance. These changes are very good and I hope Blizzard implements them. As for you people who think these changes help zerg more... srsly? | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On November 16 2010 17:16 orotoss wrote: Change 1 makes it easier to wall off with barracks/gateways, making it harder for speedlings. This is not true, the first change made the wall off the same for Terran/Protoss, not easier. Reducing the size of the main cliff so that the creep tumor can get down and not adding the doodads makes it require 4 buildings to wall there instead of 3. The doodads were added to keep it the same as the original in that regard. Sorry if that was unclear. | ||
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Gofarman
Canada648 Posts
What I think about each change; #1 while I do agree that each ramp should be equal in all respects I am skeptical of the Doodad chosen to close down the Right spawn Ramp. I am no map maker but I would think sliding the whole ramp 1sq would have the same effect as the Doodad. Shifting the ramp would also avoid any pathing issues caused by choking the ramp further (or even blocking LOS). <if that doodad doesn't block LOS ignore that.> Since Nightfall has taken the time to address his concern more completely I would like to say that I am leaning toward agreement with him. However, as a P player I am not sure there being any consequences except in ZvZ. #2 This change is something I actually hadn't noticed being a difference it comes up so rarely. While I agree that they should be the same I can't see the difference having any effects on strategy since SC2 has such advanced pathing. I would hypothesize that a smaller choke favors early Protoss pushes (specifically in mind stalkers vs lings) and mid game PvT since mid tier Protoss tech (collosi, immortal) are more mobile then T mid tier tech (Thor, Tank). The differences that I can tell are so slight that they could be irrelevant, however. #3 Another necessary change, I would lean toward a wider choke however. The idea of a Zeal door is a nice feeling. #4 ABOUT TIME, I've been soo jealous of no blink when the infestors abuse that. I'm no pro but I hope my insights helped. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On November 16 2010 17:05 Xacalite wrote: When reading to the answers i get kinda sad how many fuckin retards dont get what the OP actually did. How can you QQ instantly that this map that is "zerg favoured" is getting even more buffed for zerg? Do you even know what "zerg favoured" means? When reading stuff like "ohhhh your making teh mapz even betta 4 zergs omg" I dont think you do. Zerg favoured is atm only a term to refer to a map that is pretty much perfectly balanced. No short rush distance to tank push twice and shelll your nat. No ultra small chokes to pummel down 10 ultras that cant attack at once. No ledge for thor drops (not saying LT is imba). So next time you whining about map changes use your degenerated brain and think about what your just about to write. Sorry for the rant but it makes me mad. As for the changes i really think they were all quite needed. I think having maps with features that favour race X is nothing bad. But having to cointoss between a godd spawn and a bad spawn is very shitty. I personally agree with you changes. Evening out spawn points on the better blizzard maps and let the ICCup guys make the other godd maps =). I'm a Protoss player. I hate Scrap Station, and it's currently banned from my pool along with Steppes (the worst map ever made besides Incineration Zone). Wanna know why? It's not because it's perfectly balanced. It's because it's so goddamn annoying to have to build everything at your ramp or pretty much autolose to Zergling runbys. If you do take an expo, you still have to worry about those damn runbys, only in two directions now. Zerg has far fewer problems in regards to expanding, because of the relative immobility of Protoss units, and can therefore outmacro any Protoss player with ease. That's not fun. It's like if there were a map where us Protoss started with a proxy Pylon on a cliff above your main- oh, it's balanced, you just have to wall it off and defend properly. Doesn't matter. It's way too hard to defend, and sets the defending player on the back foot and allows far more risky play on the part of the advantaged player. Fact: the more things you have to account for, the weaker your build will be. Fact: Scrap Station's wide "chokes" and distanced main/natural make Zergling runbys much more serious threats than on other ladder maps, say Lost Temple (tight choke at natural) and Xel'Naga Caverns (much closer natural to main). Conclusion: Zerg is much stronger on Scrap Station than on other maps. I'd even go so far as to say it's a little bit overpowered against Protoss (Terran has Hellions and Tanks to really shut down any kind of Zergling attacks early on, and Planetaries later). Is this a reason nobody should ever play Scrap Station? No. Is this saying that Protoss is woefully underpowered and should receive massive buffs? No. Is this a reason Scrap Station should receive a few changes so that it is easier to defend as Protoss? Yes indeed. And please, drop the "Zerg UP" attitude. That's stopped being applicable. If you keep on losing, it's because of your own inability. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On November 16 2010 17:30 Gofarman wrote: All of your changes are good, in my humble opinion. What I think about each change; #1 while I do agree that each ramp should be equal in all respects I am skeptical of the Doodad chosen to close down the Right spawn Ramp. I am no map maker but I would think sliding the while ramp 1sq would have the same effect as the Doodad. Shifting the ramp would also avoid any pathing issues caused by choking the ramp further (or even blocking LOS). <if that doodad doesn't block LOS ignore that. As far as I can tell, the actual problem with the ramp is not where it is in relation to the cliff, it's the distance from the tumor to the ramp. The way creep works, in order for it to get down the cliff, it has to get down the ramp, then around the ramp, then pool into the area to the right of the ramp, before the tumor can be placed. The tumor cannot be placed on the ramp since the ramp is unpathable to buildings. (This brings up a larger issue of why the hell can't you put a creep tumor on a ramp, but that's not being discussed here) Without making the main and the ramp closer together, I don't see any way to get the creep from the first tumor to make it far enough to put a tumor at the bottom of the ramp. The other way to do it would have been to leave the ramp the same size, but move the starting location of the hatchery. I changed it the way I did because I felt moving the starting location and its minerals/gas would make that spawn less vulnerable to attack by air. As is the amount of ground behind the minerals on each base is pretty even. Not to mention I didn't think of doing it that way till I'd already done it the first way, ha! I am not a good map maker. | ||
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RouaF
France4121 Posts
The right main base is actually much more vulnerable to drops than the left side. As a terran player I can defend my main with about 3 or max 4 turrets on the left side and the icing on the cake is that you can put a turret near the border of the map (north) which will kill dropship/air units attempting to pass there. On the right side you have to cover nearly 360° of your base, I think looking at the map is self explanatory, this needs to be fixed. | ||
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
On November 16 2010 17:34 Acritter wrote: I'm a Protoss player. I hate Scrap Station, and it's currently banned from my pool along with Steppes (the worst map ever made besides Incineration Zone). Wanna know why? It's not because it's perfectly balanced. It's because it's so goddamn annoying to have to build everything at your ramp or pretty much autolose to Zergling runbys. If you do take an expo, you still have to worry about those damn runbys, only in two directions now. Zerg has far fewer problems in regards to expanding, because of the relative immobility of Protoss units, and can therefore outmacro any Protoss player with ease. That's not fun. It's like if there were a map where us Protoss started with a proxy Pylon on a cliff above your main- oh, it's balanced, you just have to wall it off and defend properly. Doesn't matter. It's way too hard to defend, and sets the defending player on the back foot and allows far more risky play on the part of the advantaged player. Fact: the more things you have to account for, the weaker your build will be. Fact: Scrap Station's wide "chokes" and distanced main/natural make Zergling runbys much more serious threats than on other ladder maps, say Lost Temple (tight choke at natural) and Xel'Naga Caverns (much closer natural to main). Conclusion: Zerg is much stronger on Scrap Station than on other maps. I'd even go so far as to say it's a little bit overpowered against Protoss (Terran has Hellions and Tanks to really shut down any kind of Zergling attacks early on, and Planetaries later). Is this a reason nobody should ever play Scrap Station? No. Is this saying that Protoss is woefully underpowered and should receive massive buffs? No. Is this a reason Scrap Station should receive a few changes so that it is easier to defend as Protoss? Yes indeed. And please, drop the "Zerg UP" attitude. That's stopped being applicable. If you keep on losing, it's because of your own inability. uhhh are you retarded dude? Like seriously, do you have some form of mental retardation that slows your reading comprehension. Read this closely Scrap station was not symmetrical. Spawning on the left side was different that spawning on the right side. This is not balanced, regardless of race. OP made changes to make the map symmetrical. Why are you complaining about zerg protoss race imbalance, WHEN IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING IN THE THREAD? All this thread is about is making scrap station symmetrical. You have done the equivalent of joining a thread about pie, and started spouting how zerg is OP. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I appreciate it, but I want this thread to stay pretty srsface. | ||
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Xacalite
Germany533 Posts
Btw, is the map up on EU yet? cant wait to give it a try | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Balance wise it is the same, the new version has some cosmetic touch ups and my Swedish buddy is asleep. | ||
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pevergreen
Australia252 Posts
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Snowfield
1289 Posts
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Perscienter
957 Posts
I wonder, why such maps doesn't exist. There is also much more possible by overusing curtains a lot. You can create whole fields of curtains, where only 2nd floor and air units can see the environment. | ||
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Tyler918273
115 Posts
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On November 16 2010 22:47 Perscienter wrote: I really like exploitable map specifics if they are symmetrical. For instance, I'd maybe like to be able to blink stalker over the island to the enemie's base. They could even integrate small island chains, where the Protoss can blink over with 4 blinks to the enemie's base. I wonder, why such maps doesn't exist. There is also much more possible by overusing curtains a lot. You can create whole fields of curtains, where only 2nd floor and air units can see the environment. I'd go Zerg just to mine those island chains with blings :D | ||
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makotoisle
United States29 Posts
Time and again I am completely shocked at how difficult of a time Blizzard is having at making a mirror map. I don't profess to be programmer or know much of how this whole process works, but really? Make the both sides the same... it sounds so simple. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
Seriously, although I'm mostly defending blizz when it comes to balance changes in general, they are awfully stubborn when it comes to admitting they suck at making maps. They are preventing starcraft 2 from improving by not listening to the community when it comes to maps. | ||
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Perscienter
957 Posts
Blizzard has the upper hand in designing a system, which will structurally grant a balanced map pool, but they are just not doing it. At first they need to patch out all the positional imbalances, then they need to implement an intelligent system, which sorts bad maps out in the long term or lets them become patched. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On November 16 2010 23:32 Tyler918273 wrote: /\ this again has nothing to do with the thread. Great changes though op, this has been needed for a long time and I'm glad you took the initiative to get it done. I wonder though, were the mains the same size before your changes or after? It shouldn't matter much but pushing that ramp back had to change the size somewhat. I dont see how bliz could have put this map in the ladder with so many inequalities. overall these changes are great and the people crying zerg imba are just idiots. It does make the main of the right hand spawn a little smaller. Scrap Station already had huge mains though, so I don't think it's severe. Maybe I'll figure out how to use that map analyzer gadget today and put some before and after analyzed imagery up there. People are starting to post about how Blizzard can't make maps, Blizzards maps are bad, Kespa this etc, and I really don't want this thread to move that way. I only want to talk about these changes specifically for right now. If this goes over well I might update other maps too, but for now lets just talk about Scrap Station. | ||
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