EPTAs far as "removing magic boxing" you are suggesting replacing it with a lock formation command. In SC2 magic boxing is almost equivalent to lock formation except that magic boxing is once again slightly harder to use. If you lock mutas into formation and click attack they would attack in that formation. If you magic box and do that they clump up. Once again it's something that takes micro and practice to use right but is not impossible and leads to a skill curve. A skill curve is not a bad thing (to some degree). So unless you can make a case why giving a lock formation button would lead to more dynamics somewhere else, rather than less, there is no reason to replace it.
The perception of formations vs. the "magic box". - Page 4
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Lunares
United States909 Posts
As far as "removing magic boxing" you are suggesting replacing it with a lock formation command. In SC2 magic boxing is almost equivalent to lock formation except that magic boxing is once again slightly harder to use. If you lock mutas into formation and click attack they would attack in that formation. If you magic box and do that they clump up. Once again it's something that takes micro and practice to use right but is not impossible and leads to a skill curve. A skill curve is not a bad thing (to some degree). So unless you can make a case why giving a lock formation button would lead to more dynamics somewhere else, rather than less, there is no reason to replace it. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On November 15 2010 23:53 Lunares wrote: Magic box, as far as it goes in SC2, has nothing to do with creating formations. You are wrong. See my previous posts in this thread for clarifications. | ||
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MichaelJLowell
United States610 Posts
On November 15 2010 23:44 R0YAL wrote: Your not listening so I guess I will explain.. The "Magic Box" is part of the AI like I previously said. The term "Magic Box" is just what the community named it. The "Magic Box" is not a feature. Still Confused? Then reprogram the game. I'm tired of these noobs magic boxing their way up the ladder. Ruins it for those of us trying to make pixel art with our units. On November 15 2010 23:50 osten wrote: Thanks for calling almost everyone in the community hipocrites. Good luck with your argument. You'd do well to remember this simple fact; magic box has exactly nothing to do with formation move at all. The use of "magic box" to spread evenly and defeat Thors is a kind of formation. On November 15 2010 23:53 Lunares wrote: Magic box, as far as it goes in SC2, has nothing to do with creating formations. That is done by auto spread of flying units, clumping of ground units and micro etc etc. You could make a case that yes having a button to press that forces your unit into a formation would be helpful. But as we have seen in the GSL with Foxer getting marines into a formation that lets them survive banelings is hard but possible. It is very micro intensive and is entirely one of the cores of SC2, that is micro will let you beat a hard counter. Why take that away when just being good lets you do the same thing? Autoformation does take away micro. Unless you find something to balance that it shouldn't be brought in, e.g. they made macro easier (MBS system) so they put in macro mechanics to make macro at least a little more difficult. You can argue how effective that was but they did put in a balance, which you have not suggested in terms of increasing micro if auto formations are in place. Auto formations would increase positioning but that is already extremely critical. As far as "removing magic boxing" you are suggesting replacing it with a lock formation command. In SC2 magic boxing is almost equivalent to lock formation except that magic boxing is once again slightly harder to use. If you lock mutas into formation and click attack they would attack in that formation. If you magic box and do that they clump up. Once again it's something that takes micro and practice to use right but is not impossible and leads to a skill curve. A skill curve is not a bad thing (to some degree). So unless you can make a case why giving a lock formation button would lead to more dynamics somewhere else, rather than less, there is no reason to replace it. Personally, I think every command should be as easy to use as the controls will allow, with some exceptions (namely those in fighting games, and even those input methods were designed with the context of the special ability in mind). Manipulating the units from that point onward should be the skill. If I was designing the game, I'd find a way to streamline the magic box in a way that any player can manipulate it. It would just be up to them to get the results they want. But that's just me, and that's a topic for another thread. | ||
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GQz
Australia168 Posts
Really it can't happen because of unit combinations and also balance. At least in my opinion. | ||
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telfire
United States415 Posts
My understanding of the original argument points: 1. You are talking about a feature, here referred to as "Formations" that would allow you to click a button and your units would hold that "formation" or position relative to each other, regardless of movement. 2. You are further stating that the "Magic Box" micro technique is the exact same thing, and therefore supporting one but opposing the other is hypocritical. 3. You are insisting that despite this being a StarCraft 2 forum, it somehow makes sense to talk about making a fundamental design change decision that would absolutely have to be made at the beginning of a game's development process to have any chance of working. You are absolutely wrong because: 1. What "Magic Box" actually is, is manual control of your units. This is a unit-specific and fundamentally different method of micro than any way I could imagine a "formation" system working. 2. You agree with point one, or did at one point in your flow of (non)logic. I know this because if magic box was synonymous with your idea for a formation system, there would be no purpose for this thread as magic box is obviously already in the game. 3. Magic Box and Formations are different because: one involves a lot more micro, and different things are possible with each of them. One is automatic, and one is manual. As an example, with a formation system marines would absolutely never be susceptible to Banelings, and that would completely fuck the meta game of ZvT, even though the exact same thing is technically possible now. 4. This game is StarCraft 2. Saying that Heroes won't work in WarCraft II is a legitimate fact. And I am not saying that formations can't work in StarCraft 3. I am saying they can't work in StarCraft 2, which is the RTS that these forums are for and that I originally assumed you wanted to talk about. However you're starting to make it clear that this discussion has absolutely nothing to do with StarCraft 2, since every time anyone mentions anything StarCraft 2-specific you say the same damn thing over and over again, that you already addressed context. Well I already addressed why addressing context doesn't simply eliminate it. You have to consider it, end of story. Unless you're talking about StarCraft 3, in which case I believe you're about 15 years too early. To summarize my position, every game has gameplay mechanics. That is all the game truly is, is mechanics. Micromanagement involves using those mechanics to control your units. The mechanic of having a single button spread your units out, and keep them spread out for you, is very, VERY different from the mechanic of having to manually keep them spread out despite their natural tendency to clump very close together. I am not arguing which is better, but that the two are entirely, fundamentally, unequivicolly different, and if you still cannot see that then I apologize, but you are wrong. | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
Magic Box: Technique that allows units to stay in formations as long as chokes or other units don't get in the way. Formation commands: Commands that spread your units for you into perfect formations. Your question: "How can someone argue against one, but not the other" MY answer: They are two different/separate things. Now if you're arguing against air units automatically spreading out(which definitely isn't in your OP), would you rather the contrary: Where air units will always stack, and are impossible to count, and hard to notice? Not to mention that it doesn't make sense physically for two objects to occupy the same space... | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
On November 15 2010 23:58 MichaelJLowell wrote: Then reprogram the game. I'm tired of these noobs magic boxing their way up the ladder. Ruins it for those of us trying to make pixel art with our units. You're kidding right? | ||
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MichaelJLowell
United States610 Posts
On November 16 2010 00:10 telfire wrote: You keep changing your argument, and your definitions. I'm going to simplify this to the most simple I can possibly simplify it to, and then I'm going to leave the thread to play StarCraft and probably not come back. ... To summarize my position, every game has gameplay mechanics. That is all the game truly is, is mechanics. Micromanagement involves using those mechanics to control your units. The mechanic of having a single button spread your units out, and keep them spread out for you, is very, VERY different from the mechanic of having to manually keep them spread out despite their natural tendency to clump very close together. I am not arguing which is better, but that the two are entirely, fundamentally, unequivicolly different, and if you still cannot see that then I apologize, but you are wrong. Well, we're not getting anywhere on this. I'm just telling you: "It wouldn't work in the current Starcraft II" is a talking point. The brief body of reference on this very message board suggests people opposed it because it wasn't Starcraft-like at a time in the production cycle where formations very-much could have been integrated into the game. If we don't agree on that, then I don't know what to tell you. On November 16 2010 00:11 Uncultured wrote: Allow me to explain this simply: Magic Box: Technique that allows units to stay in formations as long as chokes or other units don't get in the way. Formation commands: Commands that spread your units for you into perfect formations. Your question: "How can someone argue against one, but not the other" MY answer: They are two different/separate things. In the context of Mutalisks vs. Thors, the magic box lets Mutalisks spread into a perfect formation and down their counter unit with no issue. The entire argument against formation commands is the premise that there would be no counter to these formations and that micromanagement on the part of both players wouldn't extend from that point onward. That's not true. Spread Mutalisks are countered by Marines, at which point both players have to adequately micromanage their units to get the desired results. Using the magic box to create a spread formation did not destroy the game. Not to mention that it doesn't make sense physically for two objects to occupy the same space... Didn't stop Starcraft players from adopting Muta-stacking as the bread-and-butter of Brood War's Terran vs. Zerg matchup. Sure, why not? | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/ZXmDy.jpg) | ||
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Damaskinos
Germany139 Posts
However, the magic box is a pretty unique and overly celebrated exception in this game and I welcome the lack of more commands that would replace the players micro. A similiar technique for marines, to let the spread a bit, is using patrol before moving on. Of course they tend to clump up again. On the further discussion: yes, I also wished sometimes there would be a formation command to spread a bit my marines if they get attacked by banes. Nevertheless, there isnt one. And would we have this orgasmic screams of celebration from Artosis while watching FoxeRs marine micro, if there were such automating commands?  | ||
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TheDrill
Russian Federation145 Posts
tl;dr: This game doesn't have enough micro at all and adding formations would decrease it even more. | ||
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telfire
United States415 Posts
On November 16 2010 00:36 TheDrill wrote:Yea zerg requires no micro Are you KIDDING ME? People don't even seem to get how Magic box works at all. It is extremely intense micro!! It requires a LOT of actions and doing it while macroing is quite a task. Not to mention the cost of failure, which is losing as much as a 200/200 army within a space of 2 seconds or even literally instantly. Wow. Just wow. | ||
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frucisky
Singapore2170 Posts
On November 16 2010 00:45 telfire wrote: Are you KIDDING ME? People don't even seem to get how Magic box works at all. It is extremely intense micro!! It requires a LOT of actions and doing it while macroing is quite a task. Not to mention the cost of failure, which is losing as much as a 200/200 army within a space of 2 seconds or even literally instantly. Wow. Just wow. Explain yourself please. Isn't magic box just waiting for mutas to spread out then clicking outside the box and not target firing so they don't bunch up? What are the LOT of actions u talk about. And also: If your keeping up with your injections, remacroing is pretty easy for zerg. Just 4sttthhhrrr and rally. But I admit, zerg pays the price of having v fragile units. Speedlings and mutas evaporate if poorly controlled. | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
In the context of Mutalisks vs. Thors, the magic box lets Mutalisks spread into a perfect formation and down their counter unit with no issue. The entire argument against formation commands is the premise that there would be no counter to these formations and that micromanagement on the part of both players wouldn't extend from that point onward. That's not true. Spread Mutalisks are countered by Marines, at which point both players have to adequately micromanage their units to get the desired results. Using the magic box to create a spread formation did not destroy the game. Magic box doesn't let mutas spread out into perfect formation. Air units auto-spreading is a function of air units. Nothing else. Only air units do this, whereas Magic Boxing applies to ground and air units You're arguing that Air units auto spread is akin to ground units having a button that auto spreads them. But spreading units out over and area(what patrolling actually already does, pro-tip), and putting them into advantageous formations is two very different things.(You want to spread marines vs banes, but want them in a tight pack vs zerglings, for example) IF you're trying to argue both of these points, then you're clearly just trolling and trying to flipflop your arguments as you please. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On November 16 2010 01:00 frucisky wrote: Explain yourself please. Isn't magic box just waiting for mutas to spread out then clicking outside the box and not target firing so they don't bunch up? What are the LOT of actions u talk about. And also: If your keeping up with your injections, remacroing is pretty easy for zerg. Just 4sttthhhrrr and rally. But I admit, zerg pays the price of having v fragile units. Speedlings and mutas evaporate if poorly controlled. Read the thread please. I already posted a DETAILED explanation of what the magic box is and how it works. It's getting slightly annoying that people keep responding with silly posts like this without even bothering to read the thread. | ||
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telfire
United States415 Posts
On November 16 2010 01:00 frucisky wrote: Explain yourself please. Isn't magic box just waiting for mutas to spread out then clicking outside the box and not target firing so they don't bunch up? What are the LOT of actions u talk about. And also: If your keeping up with your injections, remacroing is pretty easy for zerg. Just 4sttthhhrrr and rally. But I admit, zerg pays the price of having v fragile units. Speedlings and mutas evaporate if poorly controlled. No, that's not what magic box is at all. If you want to call the "right click, wait" that causes them to spread out "magic box", so be it, but in that case magic box is completely meaningless and pointless and there's no reason to give it a name or any thought at all. The only way it's worth a damn is if you engage the enemy with it, and engaging the enemy while maintaining the magic box is not easy at all (unless of course you are ahead in units) as the mutas will continually try to collapse on themselves. You can't just let them spread out and then a move. They will clump back together at the first enemy they encounter. If you click too close, they will clump before even encountering an enemy. You have to use a combination of clicking way across the map, using hold position, and knowing the exact moment to retreat, or magic box won't help you at all. If you want to simplify it you could say that technically, magic box takes one click, a small period of time, another click, and then a hold position. In theory that's the whole technique. In practice you'll need to do much more. | ||
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universalwill
United States654 Posts
i mean, what if all foxer had to do to split his marines was hit a button? that play wouldn't be SO HIGH LEVEL at all. but because formations have to be carefully controlled, it raises the skill ceiling. | ||
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ThE_ShiZ
United States143 Posts
"I'm sick of these noobs magic-boxing their way up the ladder." I laughed so hard at this. Since when has manually keeping your units spread been a gimmick/noob strat? and what are they magic boxing? If you're complaining about mutalisks, its only good vs thors. with marine support its somewhat pointless. the magic-box is not a button, it's taking advantage of the control-group stacking physics, its like in ssbm when people figured you can l-cancel and wavedash. are they intended functions? certainly not, but it added a whole new dynamic to the game without changing it. As far as the formations argument goes, it's irrelevant because it will never be in sc2. Besides, magic box is quite situational. It's only used occasionally. With the way the maps and units function there really is no need for a formation button anyway. | ||
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mardi
United States1164 Posts
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TzTz
Germany511 Posts
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/thumb/0/0a/Derp.jpg/350px-Derp.jpg) So what you do with mutas versus Thors has nothing to do with formations... When you order units to move it's just natural (for air units especially) that they stay roughly in place to each other as long as they have same speed and acceleration etc. | ||
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