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On October 29 2010 13:09 Caphe wrote:
From my POV this is definately cheating. Its just like match fixing in any other sports, you give each other free wins in order to gain advantages(trophy/achievement). Blizzard should do something about it. Actually, this also reveals another flaw of Bnet 2.0, if you quit the match right away the other person still got a win. I think they need to make it 2-3 mins just like in BW/WC3.
For people said that this didnt affect you, so its not cheat. I dont agree, this may not affect you in anyway but it affects others. Think about someone that also in Bronze but put true efforts in earning his achievements and this is unfair for him.
So what if someone just 6pool and worker rushes every game to get it? Is it unfair to the people who are playing standard length games?
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On October 29 2010 13:06 Skillz_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 07:51 Resilient wrote:On October 29 2010 07:30 Skillz_Man wrote:
I don't understand the complaining tbh. They by no means are breaking the rules, are you jealous they'll have more portraits than you because they do it a nolife way? Well it doesn't matter, no rules broken, what do you have against it people?
I personally did it for 750 Protoss wins since I LOVE the Selendis portrait, and I really wanted to have it... I play 1v1 in custom so it would take a loong time for me to get since I don't ladder.
Selendis is from team games though, so you did harm other players. I don't see a problem with doing it in 1v1 but it was pretty lame leaving your allies to finish a game for you in a team game. Me and a friend did it together, so we weren't harming anyone. Also with the idea of a time limit... It doesn't solve anything. Think of it this way. If the time limit is 2-3 minutes, if the game is less than that, game is a draw. So in this case you could fast expand every game, and you scouted cheese, you could just leave... But if you make it 1 minute or less, well then waiting for a minute to leave wouldn't be that bad. There is no real solution to this unless you want to resort to banning or something which I think is unfair.
Actually, I think waiting for 1 minute is enough to deter a lot of people.
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i'm not getting it... a bronze players with 88 points with a lot games played?
what's the problem? really?
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"Oh no they are going to get an avatar before me!"
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So to sum up the general consensus:
"Cheating is okay as long as it doesn't affect me personally. In fact, since I don't give two shits about the rewards they're trying to gain by cheating, it's not really cheating at all. The world, nay, the universe revolves around me and my value judgements. Win trading to get in the top 200 would be a bad thing, because one can only have skill if a leaderboard proclaims it to the world. Win trading to get portraits is not an issue because getting 4000 wins is a personal goal and you shouldn't care if other people get it with far less effort than intended."
<insert random comment equivocating win trading with successfully cheesing 4000 times>
Glad we had this discussion (again).
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On October 28 2010 22:42 Manifesto7 wrote:
Who cares. I can't imagine a worse use of the limited time we have on earth than win trading on SC2. Let them waste their life.
Because hitting "Search for game" and then "Surrender" while watching TV is a terrible waste of the finite calories expended to move your index finger down twice every few minutes. God help them if they do something even more time-and-attention-consuming, like chewing gum or picking their noses.
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I still dont see this as a clear-cut case of cheating, i think that is what the general consencus is.
They dont play the game the way you want them to play it, or for the same reason, therefore they are cheating?
Could it be considered cheating by Blizzard? Quite possibly, but they might also ignore it since it is within the constrains of the current ladder system and it does not affect anyone else!
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1. click a button 2. F10+n 3. repeat
Do that for hours. They'll get my pity, at least.
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On October 29 2010 15:53 DND_Enkil wrote:
They dont play the game the way you want them to play it, or for the same reason, therefore they are cheating?
I don't personally care about portraits. And I certainly don't care if they play the way I want them to play.
But they're not playing the game the way BLIZZARD wants them to play it. The ladder should not be manipulated. This is win trading, and people were actioned to hell and back in WoW for that. And that wasn't for anything tangible either, just a silly title and a cosmetic in-game mount (a $25 value!).
If Blizzard just wanted them to get 4000 wins by any means necessary, they wouldn't have stipulated the use of the ladder. There's no fucking way you can argue that tricking the ladder into matching you with people you agreed to win trade with is okay.
You can say you don't care. That's a perfectly reasonable position. But thinking that it's not cheating because you don't care, or because there's no specific clause in the TOS prohibiting you from that exact method of cheating, those are infantile positions.
Just like your third grade teacher didn't need forensic evidence proving that your dog did not in fact eat your homework to give you a failing grade, Blizzard doesn't need to spell every infraction out for you.
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The "problem" doesnt matter as its really just about the archivements, the worst part of SC.
I mean cmon archivements just produce annoying bad cheats/hacks/exploits and nobody that really plays the game (high diamond) cares for them anyway.
The battlenet system lacks a lot, but as long as your "real" Rating matters and not just your amount of wins nobody will get in Top 200 just by "cheating" the system.
*And if they do, i am sure they will get banned or somehow "removed" from the ladder.
Just imagine someone in Grand master that cant even play at all , how emberrasing must that be ?
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On October 29 2010 16:09 TheOnlyOne wrote:
I mean cmon archivements just produce annoying bad cheats/hacks/exploits and nobody that really plays the game (high diamond) cares for them anyway.
Only 1% of all players matter. They are in fact the only ones really playing the game.
Blizzard makes money by spending $100,000,000 making games that they then sell to 10 000 people for $60 a pop. They're frickin' geniuses.
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On October 29 2010 12:16 phaded wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 08:17 zomgtossrush wrote:
I don't think anyone has brought this up yet.
The problem is that if a significant amount of people do this, it can scew the race win stats. And blizzard is trying t balance their game using stats from all across the leagues. They wouldn't bother, the stats mean nothing. Terran would have like a 90%+ win rate vs Random at low bronze because every worker rusher just autoleaves vs Terran.
yeah, but these statistics are actually influencing the blizzard balance team, as stated in the multiplayer panel at blizzcon. There isn't as much weight in the bronze stats, but they are still looked at.
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Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 15:53 DND_Enkil wrote:
They dont play the game the way you want them to play it, or for the same reason, therefore they are cheating? I don't personally care about portraits. And I certainly don't care if they play the way I want them to play. But they're not playing the game the way BLIZZARD wants them to play it. The ladder should not be manipulated. This is win trading, and people were actioned to hell and back in WoW for that. And that wasn't for anything tangible either, just a silly title and a cosmetic in-game mount (a $25 value!).
But, then let Blizzard deal with it if they think it is an issue? If Blizzard do not deal with it they dont think it is an issue and are fine with it?
Could not really care less what they did or did not do in WoW, different game and quite possible different people making the decisions.
If Blizzard just wanted them to get 4000 wins by any means necessary, they wouldn't have stipulated the use of the ladder. There's no fucking way you can argue that tricking the ladder into matching you with people you agreed to win trade with is okay.
Of cource i can argue for it, actually i am arguing for it as is several others in this thread.
You can say you don't care. That's a perfectly reasonable position. But thinking that it's not cheating because you don't care, or because there's no specific clause in the TOS prohibiting you from that exact method of cheating, those are infantile positions.
I dont think it is cheating because i dont care, i am saying it is up to Blizzard to decide if this is cheating or not and if they wish to take action against it. Not you. Not me. Not TL.
Thinking that it is cheating because it does not match your personal opinion on what is morally okay is an equally infantile position. There are literally TONS of games where bottom-of-the-barrel win trading is allowed if the only gain is achivements/similar, Blizard has of yet to make a stand on this and therefore screaming "CHEAT" is just plain wrong.
They are working within the contrains of Bnet, they are not using any 3rd-party program. They are exploiting the matchmaking system, if this is a big enough infiction for Blizzard to take the time and ban them (or just remove the games played) then yes it is cheating. If not, then it is allowed.
Just like your third grade teacher didn't need forensic evidence proving that your dog did not in fact eat your homework to give you a failing grade, Blizzard doesn't need to spell every infraction out for you.
Just to be clear i am not doing this, dont have the time and value my ranking to much. And yeah, it is Blizzards house if they want to punish this they certainly have every right to do so. But until they do, there is very little to suggest it is cheating. Submit a ticket and see what response you get.
Personally, i think Blizzard agrees with most here, it is not hurting anyone and if they want to sink loads of time joining an quitting games no skin of our nose.
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im indifferent about this, if they wanna flash around there e-penis about there avatars fine but i could care less
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On October 29 2010 15:36 kojinshugi wrote:
So to sum up the general consensus:
"Cheating is okay as long as it doesn't affect me personally. In fact, since I don't give two shits about the rewards they're trying to gain by cheating, it's not really cheating at all. The world, nay, the universe revolves around me and my value judgements. Win trading to get in the top 200 would be a bad thing, because one can only have skill if a leaderboard proclaims it to the world. Win trading to get portraits is not an issue because getting 4000 wins is a personal goal and you shouldn't care if other people get it with far less effort than intended."
<insert random comment equivocating win trading with successfully cheesing 4000 times>
Glad we had this discussion (again).
R U SIRIUS?
Seriously, Blizzard won't rush to ban something this innocuous because it makes the game FUN for those cheesers, even if it's abusing the system. And please stop with the slippery slope arguments, you're setting up a straw man. There IS A BIG DIFFERENCE between cheating (like map-hacking) when it is both highly visible (ladderboard?) and which harms others, compared to cheating to get achievement portraits, which harms...no one.
Are you the guy which actively stops other people from jaywalking across a road? We get it, win-trading is WRONG, doesn't mean that you have to get so worked up over it. How about you complain about something worthwhile instead, like imba 
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On October 29 2010 16:49 DND_Enkil wrote:
I dont think it is cheating because i dont care, i am saying it is up to Blizzard to decide if this is cheating or not and if they wish to take action against it. Not you. Not me. Not TL.
I'm fully aware of the fact that we are in fact not in charge of Blizzard's policies. I'm not even calling for anyone to be banned or receive any sort of account action because of it.
I'm stating and defending my opinion (on whether this is cheating or not), just like you are stating and defending yours. I'm also giving examples of Blizzard's behavior in the past when it comes to these supposedly grey areas of what's cheating and what isn't.
I'm not going to lose any sleep over this issue. I'm not going to report win traders. I just take issue with the attitude of many people in this thread, i.e. "Whatever I don't give a shit about is something no one else should give a shit about either."
I don't personally care about portraits and rewards, just like I don't personally care about LAN support. They're both things that don't affect me. But I can still sympathize with people for whom those issues are important.
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On October 29 2010 17:03 Daniel C wrote:
There IS A BIG DIFFERENCE between cheating (like map-hacking) when it is both highly visible (ladderboard?) and which harms others, compared to cheating to get achievement portraits, which harms...no one.
How does being #2 instead of #1 in the US Top 200 because of map hacks "harm" someone any more than being the second guy instead of the first guy with Dark Voice because of ladder cheating?
You're arbitrarily holding your personal preferences to a higher standard than other people's personal preferences.
Are you the guy which actively stops other people from jaywalking across a road? We get it, win-trading is WRONG, doesn't mean that you have to get so worked up over it. How about you complain about something worthwhile instead, like imba
I'm not worked up about win trading. I barely even care. What I might be worked up about is the intellectual laziness and myopia of my fellow posters, who are defending this crap.
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On October 29 2010 17:10 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 17:03 Daniel C wrote:
There IS A BIG DIFFERENCE between cheating (like map-hacking) when it is both highly visible (ladderboard?) and which harms others, compared to cheating to get achievement portraits, which harms...no one. How does being #2 instead of #1 in the US Top 200 because of map hacks "harm" someone any more than being the second guy instead of the first guy with Dark Voice because of ladder cheating? You're arbitrarily holding your personal preferences to a higher standard than other people's personal preferences. Show nested quote +Are you the guy which actively stops other people from jaywalking across a road? We get it, win-trading is WRONG, doesn't mean that you have to get so worked up over it. How about you complain about something worthwhile instead, like imba I'm not worked up about win trading. I barely even care. What I might be worked up about is the intellectual laziness and myopia of my fellow posters, who are defending this crap.
OK, since you're going to argue it that way, you're right, my personal preference is "arbitrary". Then what makes YOUR preference any less arbitrary than mine????
Two solutions: either a higher authority (Blizzard) lays down the law, or we have a consensus by popular opinion. You've obviously lost the battle of popular opinion, so your only choice is to go to Blizzard. Good luck
Edit: I'm not arguing whether it's right or wrong, only whether it's appropriate to get all fussed up about it. For the record, I think it's wrong.
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On October 29 2010 16:49 DND_Enkil wrote:
I dont think it is cheating because i dont care, i am saying it is up to Blizzard to decide if this is cheating or not and if they wish to take action against it. Not you. Not me. Not TL.
Thinking that it is cheating because it does not match your personal opinion on what is morally okay is an equally infantile position. There are literally TONS of games where bottom-of-the-barrel win trading is allowed if the only gain is achivements/similar, Blizard has of yet to make a stand on this and therefore screaming "CHEAT" is just plain wrong.
It is up to Blizzard to decide!? What is that supposed to mean? What happened to good old "thinking for yourself"? This attitude strikingly reminds me of the infamous "it-is-only-a-foul-if-the-referee-sees-it"-line of argumentation. These guys are trading wins on a ladder in order to get achievements. Of course this constitutes cheating - in any meaningful understanding of the term. They "trick" the system in order to farm wins and therefore manipulate their win/loss ratio. How does the fact that you and/or others don't care about achievements change anything about that?
Obviously, they don't seem to harm anyone and that needs to be taken into account when deciding on a reaction. And it may well be that it is better for everybody if those guys continue win trading and don't go back to worker rushing beginners. But a cheat remains a cheat, even if no harm is done. This is not personal opinion, but common sense.
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On October 29 2010 17:20 MiraMax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 16:49 DND_Enkil wrote:
I dont think it is cheating because i dont care, i am saying it is up to Blizzard to decide if this is cheating or not and if they wish to take action against it. Not you. Not me. Not TL.
Thinking that it is cheating because it does not match your personal opinion on what is morally okay is an equally infantile position. There are literally TONS of games where bottom-of-the-barrel win trading is allowed if the only gain is achivements/similar, Blizard has of yet to make a stand on this and therefore screaming "CHEAT" is just plain wrong.
It is up to Blizzard to decide!? What is that supposed to mean? What happened to good old "thinking for yourself"? This attitude strikingly reminds me of the infamous "it-is-only-a-foul-if-the-referee-sees-it"-line of argumentation. These guys are trading wins on a ladder in order to get achievements. Of course this constitutes cheating - in any meaningful understanding of the term. They "trick" the system in order to farm wins and therefore manipulate their win/loss ratio. How does the fact that you and/or others don't care about achievements change anything about that? Obviously, they don't seem to harm anyone and that needs to be taken into account when deciding on a reaction. And it may well be that it is better for everybody if those guys continue win trading and don't go back to worker rushing beginners. But a cheat remains a cheat, even if no harm is done. This is not personal opinion, but common sense.
The reason people aren't upset is that these people aren't farming wins to get a result that matters, I.E. a high ladder position. That's the part of getting wins that needs to be protected. Literally every user will get one of these portraits as long as they are willing to keep playing ladder games for long enough. Every single one of us will have a 1k wins portrait of some kind given enough time.
So they're not getting anything you can't get, they're just getting it slightly faster, and the opportunity cost for that extra speed is to put themselves so far at the bottom of the bronze ladder that the Chilean miners are giving them advice on how to survive down there.
If they were using win trading to get results that matter, I.E. climbing the ladder ratings unfairly, that would be a result that you couldn't duplicate fairly given time, and it would be a concern. All that these players have really done is established a league lower than Bronze. A "dirt league" where you get portraits really fast but brand yourself as a pretty big scrub.
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EPT
