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It seems there are new ways of getting free wins, oh irony. People will kill each other only to have awesome avatar that means shit.
I just found a profile of a guy, that plays only with 3 other people ON LADDER. The games last like few seconds, where one of them just surrenders and they switch.
http://sc2ranks.com/eu/1488329/Tonfisken
Here's the guy. If u want to see it, add him to your friend list and see it for yourself. All they do is play against each other in their own circle of 3 people (Tonfisken, Shade, Trooper).
Here's what one of them said on official forums:
The thing is though, I'm not related to, or affiliated with Tonfisken or any other win-trader in any way. If I actually remember correctly, I met another guy almost twice as much as Tonfisken so your logic is very shaky. This account is simply a trial CD key I activated to try this out. But I've got bored of it already.
Also as a final note, I'd like to reinforce that there's no cheats/multiple-SC2 clients involved here. There is just a lot (30+) people doing it at any given time. And just like the people in Random Team, these people won't get banned either because (once again) there is nothing that breaks rules going on. Regardless how unethical it is in practice.
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Dominican Republic97 Posts
Like they said no cheat involved they are just some nerds that got bored of sc2.. wasting time.
meh.
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Avatars and Achievements make SC2 better... glad resources went there.
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I read about this method of cheating, but I don't understand it. I can see how it'd work for some of the achievements, but OP, since you wrote "ON LADDER" in caps, how do they guarantee they'll get each other in quick matches?
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On October 28 2010 17:49 aNDRoM wrote:
I read about this method of cheating, but I don't understand it. I can see how it'd work for some of the achievements, but OP, since you wrote "ON LADDER" in caps, how do they guarantee they'll get each other in quick matches?
This. I don't understand either.
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Honestly who cares. If they want to waste time getting stupid portraits then good for them. I am in no way jealous that they are wasting tons of hours trying to exploit the system and neither should you be.
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You state "avatar that means shit", yet are complaining about it? Who cares what they do?
By the way, this is old news. Was reported over a month ago.
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On October 28 2010 17:53 slam wrote:
Honestly who cares. If they want to waste time getting stupid portrait then good for them. I am in no way jealous that they are wasting tons of hours trying to exploit the system and neither should you.
Fact that they can make BNet to make them play only against each other. Means that it may evolve into FORCED wins. Where they dont even care about playing against each other, it will somewhat just start game and force "Surrender" from other player.
This is clearly some way of cheating, and "Just because it doesnt affects me - i dont care" attitude is so ignorant until it starts to affect you and you will be first in line with whine.
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On October 28 2010 17:52 Karliath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 17:49 aNDRoM wrote:
I read about this method of cheating, but I don't understand it. I can see how it'd work for some of the achievements, but OP, since you wrote "ON LADDER" in caps, how do they guarantee they'll get each other in quick matches? This. I don't understand either.
to my understanding, they each first lose a lot of games so their MMR is very very low, and since the rating system only matches you based on your MMR, then they always get eachother...
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They get matched up against each other on ladder because their MMRs are so low that it only matches them against each other.
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We've had this conversation before, Blizzard is aware of this, and if they deem it cheating they'll do something about it.
I think it's gaming the system and therefore bad, but don't you have better things to do than e-stalk people?
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On October 28 2010 17:56 Thunderfist wrote:This is clearly some way of cheating, and "Just because it doesnt affects me - i dont care" attitude is so ignorant until it starts to affect you and you will be first in line with whine.
HOW can it affect me? It doesn't affect ANYONE. They attain a 50% W/L and are in the bottom of bronze league. Oh noez.
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Jeez,. Nevermind. I just dont care about this shit anymore.
Leech mode on.
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On October 28 2010 17:56 Thunderfist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 17:53 slam wrote:
Honestly who cares. If they want to waste time getting stupid portrait then good for them. I am in no way jealous that they are wasting tons of hours trying to exploit the system and neither should you. Fact that they can make BNet to make them play only against each other. Means that it may evolve into FORCED wins. Where they dont even care about playing against each other, it will somewhat just start game and force "Surrender" from other player. This is clearly some way of cheating, and "Just because it doesnt affects me - i dont care" attitude is so ignorant until it starts to affect you and you will be first in line with whine.
They are not cheating and been discussed before, have a look here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=157680¤tpage=All
and for a statement from one doing it (in that thread) and how it works here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=157680¤tpage=2#33
It might be considered an exploit of bnet's match-making system but i leave that up to Blizzard. They are not using any 3-rdparty software or changing any files, and are in no way "forcing" the other player to surrender.
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On October 28 2010 17:56 Thunderfist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 17:53 slam wrote:
Honestly who cares. If they want to waste time getting stupid portrait then good for them. I am in no way jealous that they are wasting tons of hours trying to exploit the system and neither should you. Fact that they can make BNet to make them play only against each other. Means that it may evolve into FORCED wins. Where they dont even care about playing against each other, it will somewhat just start game and force "Surrender" from other player. This is clearly some way of cheating, and "Just because it doesnt affects me - i dont care" attitude is so ignorant until it starts to affect you and you will be first in line with whine. How would this possibly affect me?
Even if they do somehow find a way to make it to the top of the ladder, they're still going to suck. I don't give a shit if someone is getting free points.
But thats not even what they're doing, they're just getting free wins for stupid achievements and portraits. If they want to waste their time doing it, let them. It really doesn't affect you.
You might as well complain about an actually good player losing all of his games on purpose so he can be demoted to bronze and just 6 pooling every game so he can get a ton of "free wins".
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I don't particularly care, but it would be absolutely hilarious if blizzard took away the achievement destroying hundreds of hours of work that these people have ground to get their pictures.
And because their tears would be so delicious, I support banning 100%.
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Please, people, don't ever argue against "It doesn't affect me so I don't care" with stupid slippery slopes.
There's reason to care about fair play even if the rule breaking never affects you.
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I have a friend who does this for hours. It blows my mind that they can grind icons doing this. I guess they are WoW players though so grinding acheivements is fun to them :/
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On October 28 2010 18:11 kojinshugi wrote:
There's reason to care about fair play even if the rule breaking never affects you.
What rule are they breaking?
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On October 28 2010 18:14 DND_Enkil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:11 kojinshugi wrote:
There's reason to care about fair play even if the rule breaking never affects you. What rule are they breaking?
The rule where portraits are awarded for laddering.
This isn't laddering, it's purposefully tanking your MMR so low that you exclusively play other wintraders and then just alternate surrendering.
People in WoW get banned for this sort of "creative use of game mechanics" bullshit all the time.
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Oh man, this guy tries so hard to get awesome avatars, like the vulture he has right now..
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Yes it is impossible for this to affect you, if you have a speck of logic you should know this. If you whine about this consider for a second that you essentially whine about the beautiful pictures they get to have on their profile. Which is stuff that i'd expect to see on some kind of pony adventure forum.
I think it's pretty cool that people do this. I would think that of course everybody wants the other guy to leave but nobody wants to actually do it  It's a cool trust relationship
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I hope they don't get banned for this (even if they might, looking at precedent).
Don't get me wrong, I don't support their actions, but I think it's wrong to punish someone in such a manner when they aren't technically breaking the rules. It would be like banning players who used SCVS in bunkers to repair the bunkers. Blizard should just patch, or figure something out to solve the problem.
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On October 28 2010 18:23 osten wrote:
If you whine about this consider for a second that you essentially whine about the beautiful pictures they get to have on their profile. Which is stuff that i'd expect to see on some kind of pony adventure forum.
On this Very Serious Super Gosu forum, we only care about the arbitrary and inflated numerical values on our profile pages.
People care about merit badges. Just because yours aren't actual graphical images, doesn't mean you don't display any.
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On October 28 2010 18:24 Karliath wrote:
I hope they don't get banned for this (even if they might, looking at precedent).
Don't get me wrong, I don't support their actions, but I think it's wrong to punish someone in such a manner when they aren't technically breaking the rules. It would be like banning players who used SCVS in bunkers to repair the bunkers. Blizard should just patch, or figure something out to solve the problem.
I don't think they'd get banned, they'd probably get their achievements/portraits removed and their stats reset. Or Blizz might not do anything at all, it's not a huge deal by any means.
It is, however, win trading, and win trading is cheating.
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On October 28 2010 17:56 Thunderfist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 17:53 slam wrote:
Honestly who cares. If they want to waste time getting stupid portrait then good for them. I am in no way jealous that they are wasting tons of hours trying to exploit the system and neither should you. Fact that they can make BNet to make them play only against each other. Means that it may evolve into FORCED wins. Where they dont even care about playing against each other, it will somewhat just start game and force "Surrender" from other player. This is clearly some way of cheating, and "Just because it doesnt affects me - i dont care" attitude is so ignorant until it starts to affect you and you will be first in line with whine.
Ok well just to clear up, its not actually that complicated to make a client only connect to another client if thats what both clients want. Just make it so when you both click the find game button you cant actually find anyone else, perfectly reasonable thing to attempt.
Changing the game so it forces someone unaware to surrender... that would require you to be on their machine, or at the very least, intercept their clients communication with blizz servers which would be for all essential purposes impossible, certainly not worth the effort required and not to mention the potential for law enforcement to get involved and Blizzard to sue your ass hard.
These people wont affect your gaming experience. Christ every top 10 xbox live leader-board is made of boosters, while Blizz wont let it ever get that bad, is it really a surprise that there are some on this?
They paid for the game anyway, as far as i'm concerned if they don't affect the experience of others whats the big deal? They aren't stealing ranks from you or ruining your games, just getting a pretty picture faster, using an incredibly tedious method.
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On October 28 2010 18:07 691175002 wrote:
I don't particularly care, but it would be absolutely hilarious if blizzard took away the achievement destroying hundreds of hours of work that these people have ground to get their pictures.
And because their tears would be so delicious, I support banning 100%.
This
Also coming from the WoW arena scene.. Wintrading is in every way a form of cheating. Even tho' they've bottom low they're still holding rank spots that is not thers and therby achieving thing they don't deserve.
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On October 28 2010 18:27 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:23 osten wrote:
If you whine about this consider for a second that you essentially whine about the beautiful pictures they get to have on their profile. Which is stuff that i'd expect to see on some kind of pony adventure forum. On this Very Serious Super Gosu forum, we only care about the arbitrary and inflated numerical values on our profile pages. People care about merit badges. Just because yours aren't actual graphical images, doesn't mean you don't display any.
People care about merit badges. That does sound reasonable... but can you really call a picture you get for winning games a merit badge?
Dunno about you but 1k wins means nothing if your still rolling in the silver league.(other than not learning from your mistakes) But at least you have 1k wins? The avatars mean absolutly nothing.
If you had to have a league/point requirement to get the high ones then maybe they would be a "Merit badge" to show off how good you are/ have become. At the moment the avatars really just mean you ladder a lot, and since its always a 50/50 win rate, everyone with 2k games will have their 1k picture which really means nothing. I dont see the merit in the avatars in this game.
More on the win trading - let them get their avatars. If they ever find out how to use this to increase their ranking absurdly blizzard will take action, until then its just a picture on some random persons account that plays the bronze league. Id rather not do that and have fun really, less waste of time.
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On October 28 2010 18:34 adwodon wrote:
They paid for the game anyway, as far as i'm concerned if they don't affect the experience of others whats the big deal? They aren't stealing ranks from you or ruining your games, just getting a pretty picture faster, using an incredibly tedious method.
They cheapen the reward for people doing it legitimately.
The Dark Voice portrait goes from "holy crap this guy has won 3000 games as random!" to "oh look it's a tard who spams win trades with his negative MMR".
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On October 28 2010 18:39 actionbastrd wrote:
Dunno about you but 1k wins means nothing if your still rolling in the silver league.(other than not learning from your mistakes) But at least you have 1k wins? The avatars mean absolutly nothing.
Other people in the guy's silver league will probably care. He will most certainly care.
Not everyone can be in the Grand Master league. People will set themselves goals they think they can attain.
Until you place highly in a tournament, being diamond or ytterbium or grand wizard or whatever you are isn't very impressive either.
Anyway, I've made my points. If you don't agree, whatever. Neither one of us works for Blizzard so meh.
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On October 28 2010 18:16 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:14 DND_Enkil wrote:On October 28 2010 18:11 kojinshugi wrote:
There's reason to care about fair play even if the rule breaking never affects you. What rule are they breaking? The rule where portraits are awarded for laddering. This isn't laddering, it's purposefully tanking your MMR so low that you exclusively play other wintraders and then just alternate surrendering. People in WoW get banned for this sort of "creative use of game mechanics" bullshit all the time.
Ok, when someone asks what rule they are breaking a logical response is not "something that isn't a rule but I feel is important."
Portraits are not rules. Please consult a dictionary if you are confused as to the difference.
The *game* itself is multi-dimensional and, if someone's purpose in the game is to get 50,000 games under their belt as fast as possible, "accomplish" 30,000 losses or achieve any other metric for which an "award" is granted that you believe was obtained by means other than honest golly geese I'm gonna give it 100% effort every time, then let them have their fun. WHO CARES?!
This impacts the people who play the game seriously 0%. The amount of logical leaps you need to make to argue that it impacts a serious gamer in any way are so ridiculous that, anyone smart enough to make all those leaps cogently, would also be smart enough not to waste their time making those leaps.
Unlike in WoW, these players are not "creatively advancing." They are just being really weird. They are at the bottom of bronze. If they found a cheat to get them to diamond, I'd be with you.
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What do you mean? Everyone does not care about merit badges, and I still think it's something for a pony adventure forum. Do you actually go and check people's achievement(sp?) "showcase" and get jawdropped with the oh so very cool achievement comparison engine? How can they not save vs race statistics, but waste hours on making a system for comparing achivements.. I am fairly sure they made these features to attract girl gamers under 13, and those... closely related.... Has nothing nothing nothing to do with the game. Nothing. It's like a mini-game. For babies.
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Lol "no cheats involved" as if they've done this 4000 times manually. Botters, obviously.
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On October 28 2010 18:45 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:39 actionbastrd wrote:
Dunno about you but 1k wins means nothing if your still rolling in the silver league.(other than not learning from your mistakes) But at least you have 1k wins? The avatars mean absolutly nothing. Other people in the guy's silver league will probably care. He will most certainly care. Not everyone can be in the Grand Master league. People will set themselves goals they think they can attain. Until you place highly in a tournament, being diamond or ytterbium or grand wizard or whatever you are isn't very impressive either. Anyway, I've made my points. If you don't agree, whatever. Neither one of us works for Blizzard so meh.
What does tournament play, or my league have to do with this? :-/ I never once said anything about myself and how i am at this game. I just feel something with merit would involve a skill level. Like diamond is the top league, the top avatars should require a higher league.
Maybe have silver league avatars, gold, plat, diamond and make them unlock when you reach a point value or when you get promoted. Would make the system a ton better than just spamming games to get everything. It would also prevent game traders/ bronze worker rush players. Win win? Either way i feel with the current set up the avatars dont mean much other than you ladder a ton.
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On October 28 2010 18:45 Choirdrunk wrote:
Ok, when someone asks what rule they are breaking a logical response is not "something that isn't a rule but I feel is important."
Portraits are not rules. Please consult a dictionary if you are confused as to the difference.
The written rule is that Blizzard can ban you at any time for whatever reason.
The precedent is WoW, where people were actioned for things like two-manning a boss by simply standing on two opposite sides of the room, making the AI run back and forth without hitting either.
There's no rule that specifically prevents it. But it allows access to rewards with less effort than intended, by completing the challenge in a way that exploits oversights in game systems.
Win 1000 games on the ladder with each race is a reward intended for people who do what the damn thing says to do. It doesn't say "custom games", because you could obviously win trade with a buddy there'. It specifically directs you to the ladder because it's intended as a reward for legitimately winning 4000 games, playing against real opponents.
Purposefully tanking your MMR so you can do nothing but win trade on the ladder is cheating. End of story. If they win traded for Top 200, you'd be up in arms. Since they're win trading for shit you don't care about, you don't care.
But it's the win trading that's against the rules, not what your ultimate goal in doing it is.
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On October 28 2010 18:55 actionbastrd wrote:
What does tournament play, or my league have to do with this? :-/ I never once said anything about myself and how i am at this game. I just feel something with merit would involve a skill level. Like diamond is the top league, the top avatars should require a higher league.
Merit is not a synonym for skill. Dig 1000 ditches is an achievement, being innately better at digging ditches isn't.
The majority of SC2 players will never reach diamond, let alone anything above it. Playing better isn't a sustainable metric for achievements, because people have skill caps that they reach relatively quickly. Playing more than the other guy, that's something anyone can do with enough persistence.
Turning that from "win a lot of games" to "hit Surrender a bunch of times" makes it pointless, removing incentive from a very large portion of the SC2 playerbase.
EDIT: amazing analogy incoming:
It's like getting a gold watch when you retire. Sure, raises and promotions would be better, but if you work the same job adequately for 40 years, you get a gold watch.
This is like some guy forging his paperwork so HR thinks he's worked there for 40 years, when he actually only worked there for 6 months. He gets a gold watch just same. One of you deserved it. The other one cheated.
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Regarding the 1k picture reward,Blizz should implement an history section or an shorter version of ur win/loss section. In an word,to have an small panel which says "534 win in Bronze league,249 wins in Silver league,...........,45 wins in Diamond league".
That will at least give an ideea to ppl who go "really nice pic man....i guess ur really imba for having the Predator icon". It wont solve the win trading buisness,but at least will give ppl an ideea if that player got his wins in bronze or in Diamond.
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On October 28 2010 19:06 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:55 actionbastrd wrote:
What does tournament play, or my league have to do with this? :-/ I never once said anything about myself and how i am at this game. I just feel something with merit would involve a skill level. Like diamond is the top league, the top avatars should require a higher league. Merit is not a synonym for skill. Dig 1000 ditches is an achievement, being innately better at digging ditches isn't. The majority of SC2 players will never reach diamond, let alone anything above it. Playing better isn't a sustainable metric for achievements, because people have skill caps that they reach relatively quickly. Playing more than the other guy, that's something anyone can do with enough persistence. Turning that from "win a lot of games" to "hit Surrender a bunch of times" makes it pointless, removing incentive from a very large portion of the SC2 playerbase.
i feel like you read half my posts. i added a different way to make things work. Avatars for inside each league, etc. as i said in my last post below.
+ Show Spoiler +
Maybe have silver league avatars, gold, plat, diamond and make them unlock when you reach a point value or when you get promoted. Would make the system a ton better than just spamming games to get everything. It would also prevent game traders/ bronze worker rush players. Win win? Either way i feel with the current set up the avatars dont mean much other than you ladder a ton.
That would stop game traders / worker rush players and reward improvement.
Digging 1k ditches, and not improving on your technique may be a accomplishment but the person who digs 1k ditches and improves technique should gets more from his experience, as should players in sc2.
If we reward for improvement and not mass games, that is still giving people the goal to keep playing for avatars, while improving themselves and would add so much more to what these avatars mean.
At the moment, it means little.
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Blizzard banned people for using the trainers for single player because it took away the prestige of the achievements.
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Really, they arent rule breaking. Yeah they get fancy icons, but really - does it matter??
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On October 28 2010 19:16 actionbastrd wrote:
i feel like you read half my posts. i added a different way to make things work. Avatars for inside each league, etc. as i said in my last post below.
I read your post just fine. It's a completely superfluous system because it doesn't distinguish you in any way. If you're in silver and get a portrait for it, everyone you play against will have the same portrait.
If we reward for improvement and not mass games, that is still giving people the goal to keep playing for avatars, while improving themselves and would add so much more to what these avatars mean.
At the moment, it means little.
95% of people will not improve. They will plateau at whatever their skill level is, and even if the game matures and play becomes overall better, they will still be in the same percentile of skill level and therefore in the same league.
"Win 1000 ladder matches" are goals for these people, not people who make concentrated efforts to improve by practicing and watching Day9 and watching their own replays and learning build orders/strategies.
Blizzard needs these people to have goals, since they make up the majority of the playerbase. And they certainly deserve appropriate goals and appropriate rewards from the game they bought and paid for.
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its ladder manipulation and that gets punished in most games
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On October 28 2010 20:07 Sicktor wrote:
Blizzard banned people for using the trainers for single player because it took away the prestige of the achievements.
Here's a statement made by Blizzard:
Blizzard Entertainment is not banning StarCraft II players just for using single-player cheats. There's been some confusion in the last couple of days about the suspensions and bans meted out to players caught cheating in StarCraft II. It's important to point out first, that many of the 3rd-party hacks and cheats developed for StarCraft II contain both single- and multiplayer functionality. In order to protect the integrity of multiplayer competition, we are actively detecting cheat programs used in multiplayer modes whether there are human opponents or not.
That said, players who opt to use any type of 3rd party hacks do so at their own risk — there are already built-in cheat codes for StarCraft II single-player that can be used safely. Blizzard Entertainment has always taken cheating seriously and will continue to aggressively crackdown on players who cheat in our games.
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On October 28 2010 17:34 Thunderfist wrote:
It seems there are new ways of getting free wins, oh irony. People will kill each other only to have awesome avatar that means shit.
new? that exists since wc3's ladder.
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On October 28 2010 18:16 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:14 DND_Enkil wrote:On October 28 2010 18:11 kojinshugi wrote:
There's reason to care about fair play even if the rule breaking never affects you. What rule are they breaking? The rule where portraits are awarded for laddering. For getting wins in the ladder. Blizzard is not forcing you to play a real game, you get the win at the moment the opponent leaves. The guys just using the ladder mechanics. I don't see any reason to blame them for this.
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I agree that the "it doesn't effect me" attitude is bad to have, but seriously, who does this effect? As far as I can see, nobody except the people wasting time to get these avatars. so while I object to gaming the system, its not worth my time to worry about this. there are many more important things to worry about.
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Seriously? Is Dark Voice that impressive to you that you will qq about someone being rated 900 bronze deliberately losing games?
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I am not sure which annoys me more; The useless achievement system that like all others does nothing but encourage "douchbag gaming", or the ones complaining about those who find ways to exploit said achievements that benefit them in no tangible manner.
You know, honestly I would vote that any thread on TL talking about achievements just get locked on sight. This is supposed to be a forum for competitive skilled gamers and there is nothing competitive or skillful about achievement whoring.
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Yeah I have seen this guy on Bnet fourms i thoguht it was preety funny haha.
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dont have many friends in SC2 to broad about my league winning so dont see the point of this. Anw, I dont see it much fun to do like this or actually i dont feel scare or respect for ppl who just on the top (just want to take them down anw), of corse this does not include any legends or pro players (they are really my inspiration) which lead back to my first point, why doing this?.
To comment about what they did, i dont see it as cheating, I myself sometimes lost due to connection and benefit from opponent quit, so yeah, if they want to do that I think just let them do since in case they want to prove that they are better must be in a game.
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Blizzard made the game better by adding achievements and portraits. I think people should show some gratitude instead of QQing over some people having nice portraits/avatars they themselves don't have. Be more hardcore and get them too.
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On October 28 2010 22:16 Xtar wrote:
Blizzard made the game better by adding achievements and portraits. I think people should show some gratitude instead of QQing over some people having nice portraits/avatars they themselves don't have. Be more hardcore and get them too.
I believe you missed the whole point of the thread. It's not THAT they have the avatars, it's HOW they got them that's making people annoyed (for some reason). Stop trolling.
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blizzard should see what the poor bottom dweller of bronze has to say to getting worker rushed by the same 3 people LOL
i feel bad for them, but it's gotta be super entertaining to watch them bronz'ers getting rushed though
imagine some 8 year old crying because of that.. cute
they're gaming the ladder right, allright
i commend them for not only thinking of it, but actually doing it, their mmr stuck in bronze though
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On October 28 2010 17:52 Karliath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 17:49 aNDRoM wrote:
I read about this method of cheating, but I don't understand it. I can see how it'd work for some of the achievements, but OP, since you wrote "ON LADDER" in caps, how do they guarantee they'll get each other in quick matches? This. I don't understand either.
Whenever they match someone else, they autolose so they get a really really low MMR.
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I have an idea how it could be done but I don't understand why one do it. One could use the firewall to only allow connection to BNet and friends IPs. As far as I know, BNet uses SC2 to test the connection speed between you and a couple of players that it would like to match you with. If your ping would fail with all the other players, it would match you with your friend since that's the only one with which you can actually connect with.
If the connection between players is not direct, then I don't know how one could do it without modifying SC2.
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Osaka27139 Posts
Who cares. I can't imagine a worse use of the limited time we have on earth than win trading on SC2. Let them waste their life.
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I would actually argue that the 20+ Dark Voice icon guys who worker rushed for 6,000 games damaged the ladder more than these guys do.
The morality of doing such a thing can be brought into question, but calling it cheating is just delusional. It's only pixels.
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Why in the hell would you care??? It is just a tiny damn portrait!
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I understand what they are doing but I would like someone to answer me two questions. Does this affect you in some way? Is it really worth getting upset and posting on the forums?
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This is more akin to someone gatting credit for digging 1000 ditches when the really onlt shoved the shovel in the groung once for each one. The simple solution would be to not apply wins in games that lasted less than 5 mins to the portrait achievement system.
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rofl who the fuck cares if they get matched against each others cause their MMR is so low. Let them be noobs and have a new avatar.Ppl in Diamond league dont give a damn about the loading screen avatar.... seriously, n1 really care about that?
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On the other hand, I think they did some sort of changes to team games with regards to leavers.
I THINK (not 100% positive) that if you join a team game and leave it before 5 minutes, and your partner goes on to win, you will NOT get the win anymore, it'll be considered a draw for you, and a win for your partner. I have tested this in Co-op and it seems this is the case, but I havent tested it in real team games (personally I dont wanna screw a partner, but co-op is just vs comps so who cares)
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On October 29 2010 00:47 ScDeluX wrote:
rofl who the fuck cares if they get matched against each others cause their MMR is so low. Let them be noobs and have a new avatar.Ppl in Diamond league dont give a damn about the loading screen avatar.... seriously, n1 really care about that?
You'd be surprised. People are more materialistic than they usually let on.
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On October 28 2010 18:27 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:23 osten wrote:
If you whine about this consider for a second that you essentially whine about the beautiful pictures they get to have on their profile. Which is stuff that i'd expect to see on some kind of pony adventure forum. On this Very Serious Super Gosu forum, we only care about the arbitrary and inflated numerical values on our profile pages. People care about merit badges. Just because yours aren't actual graphical images, doesn't mean you don't display any.
ooh Zing!
That's pretty clever.
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Poll: wat is more patheticmaking threads and arguing about dis shit (86) 73% win trading 4 profile pics on sc2 bnet (32) 27% 118 total votes Your vote: wat is more pathetic (Vote): win trading 4 profile pics on sc2 bnet
(Vote): making threads and arguing about dis shit
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Win trading is cheating the matchmaking system and is a bannable offense. The prescedent was set in WoW. These accounts will be closed by Blizzard.
"It doesn't affect you" is an invalid argument for two reasons. First, it doesn't matter. Just because I don't run into a maphacker doesn't make the maphacker a legit player. Secondly, as mentioned, it cheapens the value of the achievement for everyone. Just because you personally don't care about achievements doesn't mean others don't.
And it's as simple as that. If you defend these actions you're probably a cheater yourself and you're just trying to justify your own actions
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Considering that the matchmaking algorithm is designed to put people at a 50% win/loss ratio unless they improve, EVERYONE will have a 1k wins avatar given enough time. They don't mean anything, except that you have played a lot. Having the Dark Voice or Infested Kerrigan portrait just means you have played a lot of games. Maybe it means you had to play 2,000 games to get that avatar, or maybe you only had to play 1750 games. Either way, it's no big.
About a year from now, everyone who's been playing SCII ladder games more or less regularly will have several of the very high number win avatars, regardless of ladder position.
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so they're trading wins only to sit at the bottom of the ladder? okay, doesn't affect me...
my icon is and always will be my lovely thatcher.
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Honestly who cares if some players spend hours getting some portrait? It's really pointless. Everyone should be allowed any portrait so they can pick the one they like the most anyways.
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On October 28 2010 17:48 sk` wrote:
Avatars and Achievements make SC2 better... glad resources went there.
because that took SO many resources!
edit: lol baller
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On October 28 2010 19:06 kojinshugi wrote:
EDIT: amazing analogy incoming:
It's like getting a gold watch when you retire. Sure, raises and promotions would be better, but if you work the same job adequately for 40 years, you get a gold watch.
This is like some guy forging his paperwork so HR thinks he's worked there for 40 years, when he actually only worked there for 6 months. He gets a gold watch just same. One of you deserved it. The other one cheated.
The reason that this watch is truly valuable is not because of the material worth but instead because of the sentimental valuable in my opinion.
If some kid gets $500 every week to do whatever he wants with from his parents buys an expensive watch then cool, it probably doesn't mean very much to him. But instead a humble worker dedicates a very large portion of his life to a company and when he is done the company shows their immense gratitude by offering this man a token of their appreciation. The worth of this watch is maybe $200 but that is not what matters to this man. It is what the watch means to him which makes this watch so important.
If someone in bronze league gets an expensive watch maybe someone will admire him and be like "omg liek that is so c00l man! I r sooo jealous." To anyone with half a brain, they will just see this guy as some douchbag that wasted weeks to get some stupid picture. And for the guy that got it, he might think that he's hot shit for a while with his fancy portrait, but after a while he's gonna go, "Fuck, why did I just waste my time doing that. Fuck my face."
To the person that worked their ass of after a couple of months to get this reward it will actually hold meaning to them. They will know what this portrait means to them and how much work it took to get it and they will be proud.
If you work your ass off and buy a sick ass car, and then see some punk kid get the same car as a birthday present from his spineless parents, and if then you let that affect your appreciation of your car that worked for then that is just sad and I feel sorry for you because you let stupid shit like that get to you. If you finally get that sweet car then be happy.
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Problem is, now that this is staying on the front page of the teamliquid forums, more and more people are gonna start doing this.
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if their exploits didnt break any rules.. just leave them be.
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Whenever I see a good avatar, I feel like I would have a more challenging opponent since he/she must play more which mean more experience than me.
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On October 29 2010 00:58 baller wrote:Poll: wat is more patheticmaking threads and arguing about dis shit (86) 73% win trading 4 profile pics on sc2 bnet (32) 27% 118 total votes Your vote: wat is more pathetic (Vote): win trading 4 profile pics on sc2 bnet
(Vote): making threads and arguing about dis shit
<3
I'm this close to joining the baller fanclub.
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I guess the real question is, who cares? If they want to spend their time in such a manner then so be it.
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I don't see how this is effecting your SC2 experience. So they're trading wins off of each other? Okay, I don't see anything wrong with that. It's not like they're influencing your results or anybody else's at all. But, if they ever do start hacking/cheating and it does effect legit players' results, then you have something to get riled up about. Until then, you're overreacting.
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I don't understand the point.
You pay 60 bucks for a game, then don't play it but still rack up a win record.
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This is plain stupid and whoever that cares about this their brain has farted in a funky manner....
I'd like to read more of kojinshugi's posts though (=
p.s. I wont lie though, when I play someone with a lot of points, cool avatars, etc, etc.. it does caught my eyes and makes me click in their profile to see wtfzor...
I personally have never understood matchmaking systems and I dont think they are that effective at matching people's of same skill... I'm in platinum league and keep getting matched with diamond (high points)players and I keep beating them, when will I get promoted or why do they match'em with plat players?
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If you're beating them at a fairly consistent rate then you should be promoted. I had a 15 game winning streak and just about all of them at the end were diamonds. I finally hit a ceiling, lost and won a few, and shortly after got promoted. If you're getting a mix of diamond and platinum then I'm not so sure.
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There are no 3rd party programs being used, they are not disrupting anyone else's playing experience (free wins? id be so happy if i got matched up against one of them randomly). I cannot see anything happening to these players. They are just doing what they want without negatively hurting anyone else's playing experience. What are they going to get banned for? Giving random players too many wins?
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On October 29 2010 06:44 FinestHour wrote:
There are no 3rd party programs being used, they are not disrupting anyone else's playing experience (free wins? id be so happy if i got matched up against one of them randomly). I cannot see anything happening to these players. They are just doing what they want without negatively hurting anyone else's playing experience. What are they going to get banned for? Giving random players too many wins?
Then you'd still be at the lowest level of Bronze.
I don't really mind them doing their little thing at the bottom of all the leagues.
But I don't get: Why the frick do achievements matter to anyone?
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I don't understand the complaining tbh. They by no means are breaking the rules, are you jealous they'll have more portraits than you because they do it a nolife way? Well it doesn't matter, no rules broken, what do you have against it people?
I personally did it for 750 Protoss wins since I LOVE the Selendis portrait, and I really wanted to have it... I play 1v1 in custom so it would take a loong time for me to get since I don't ladder. I have it now and Im happy. I didn't negatively effect anyone, besides the jealous people who dislike the way I play the game.
Sure, people on TL play 1v1 competitive, I do too for most part, but there are many people who play to get achievements, or fool around on ladder, play UMS. It's because its what makes them happy, so don't hate just because they use the game for a different purpose than you. Maybe you guys never tried getting as many achievements as you can in a game, but threres people that find it fun, me included. It makes me happy to see how Ive been awarded for the dedication on time.
Overall, it's an opinion, and I know most people aren't going to change it after reading this, which is okay, but I want you to understand that some people play video gamesfor achievements, and that doesn't make them stupid, it's just their looking for something else than you from the game. Thank you.
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Won't the people doing this have such a low MMR anyway that it will be extremely hard for them to get back to competive laddering when they have all their icons? If I understand the matchmaking system correctly, they'd get negative MMR and get hardly any points for their wins in the end by being in the bottom of bronze, thus eventually ruining the ladder experience for them anyway. 
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On October 29 2010 07:43 sushiman wrote:Won't the people doing this have such a low MMR anyway that it will be extremely hard for them to get back to competive laddering when they have all their icons? If I understand the matchmaking system correctly, they'd get negative MMR and get hardly any points for their wins in the end by being in the bottom of bronze, thus eventually ruining the ladder experience for them anyway.
Well actually, Im not totally sure, but when I 2v2ed, me and my ally won one, either the guy left or we rushed and won, then we left the next game, so our win to loss ended up being like 900-880... And what actually happened is we got promoted to silver at that point, with about 2100 points. So I don't think it does make your MMR really low.
PS (Silver is a little harder to rush D: )
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On October 29 2010 07:30 Skillz_Man wrote:
I don't understand the complaining tbh. They by no means are breaking the rules, are you jealous they'll have more portraits than you because they do it a nolife way? Well it doesn't matter, no rules broken, what do you have against it people?
I personally did it for 750 Protoss wins since I LOVE the Selendis portrait, and I really wanted to have it... I play 1v1 in custom so it would take a loong time for me to get since I don't ladder.
Selendis is from team games though, so you did harm other players. I don't see a problem with doing it in 1v1 but it was pretty lame leaving your allies to finish a game for you in a team game.
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Didn't warcraft 3 solve this by simply causing a draw if the match ended within a set amount of time? This way they can't farm wins.
But yeah, ultimately icons aren't important. You can't win trade your way into diamond, so it doesn't really affect the game.
I can understand dropping down to bronze for easy wins and get those decals though. The default decals are ugly.
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I don't think anyone has brought this up yet.
The problem is that if a significant amount of people do this, it can scew the race win stats. And blizzard is trying t balance their game using stats from all across the leagues.
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On October 29 2010 08:17 zomgtossrush wrote:
I don't think anyone has brought this up yet.
The problem is that if a significant amount of people do this, it can scew the race win stats. And blizzard is trying t balance their game using stats from all across the leagues.
It can screw the race win stats.... in low bronze.
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They should just stick to WoW. And this really isn't cheating.
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On October 29 2010 08:17 zomgtossrush wrote:
I don't think anyone has brought this up yet.
The problem is that if a significant amount of people do this, it can scew the race win stats. And blizzard is trying t balance their game using stats from all across the leagues.
From my research, you can only do this when you are 0-600 point bronze.
And wouldn't people end up with 50% doing this anyway?
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On October 29 2010 08:17 zomgtossrush wrote:
I don't think anyone has brought this up yet.
The problem is that if a significant amount of people do this, it can scew the race win stats. And blizzard is trying t balance their game using stats from all across the leagues.
They wouldn't bother, the stats mean nothing.
Terran would have like a 90%+ win rate vs Random at low bronze because every worker rusher just autoleaves vs Terran.
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They arent cheating OP.
They just end up being paired up being that they are bronze with horrible stats, they probably got paired up so many times that they agreed to such an ordeal and proceeded 2000 wins later....
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They are gaming the system at expense of their records. Like 1001010 other people already said in this thread, it doesn't really matter and won't mess with anything at all. If they wanna spend hours doing this, than that is their game experience, sound shitty to me but to each his own. Doesn't really bother me that there are gay men having sex right now.
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How do you play a friend on ladder?
BTW: doesn't make a difference to me, they are bronze. LOL. Achievement hungry. They don't deserved to be banned for this.
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as someone with experience of XBL, the origin of all this achievement bullshit, this is what happens when you give people incentive for anything but to enjoy the game. they do just that. virtually every popular XBL game has a part of the development team dedicated to making sure there are proper achievements, some better than others but it's clearly an important thing, and more than just giving out arbitrary YEAH YOU DID IT! points. maybe blizzard should put more effort into giving the proper incentives and this wouldn't happen, and trust me, you can completely give right or wrong incentives.
for example, a game i used to play, shadowrun, gave you achievements for using an ability or spell and get a kill with it. some of these abilities and spells were quite frankly awful and basically akin to trying to get 100 kills with a mothership, except harder. the game also was immensely dependant on teamwork. did this stop retards from buying that one spell and that one spell only, and deliberately making sure they got no kills except with that spell every single match, leading to you losing the game if you went up against a team of even decently skilled players? sure didn't. and guess what, they stopped playing the game once they got the achievements, because they only cared about achievements and that was how they figured it was fastest to get them. sc2's achievements are of a different flavor, but promote the same shitty game behavior.
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On October 29 2010 07:51 Resilient wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 07:30 Skillz_Man wrote:
I don't understand the complaining tbh. They by no means are breaking the rules, are you jealous they'll have more portraits than you because they do it a nolife way? Well it doesn't matter, no rules broken, what do you have against it people?
I personally did it for 750 Protoss wins since I LOVE the Selendis portrait, and I really wanted to have it... I play 1v1 in custom so it would take a loong time for me to get since I don't ladder.
Selendis is from team games though, so you did harm other players. I don't see a problem with doing it in 1v1 but it was pretty lame leaving your allies to finish a game for you in a team game.
Me and a friend did it together, so we weren't harming anyone.
Also with the idea of a time limit... It doesn't solve anything. Think of it this way. If the time limit is 2-3 minutes, if the game is less than that, game is a draw. So in this case you could fast expand every game, and you scouted cheese, you could just leave... But if you make it 1 minute or less, well then waiting for a minute to leave wouldn't be that bad. There is no real solution to this unless you want to resort to banning or something which I think is unfair.
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From my POV this is definately cheating. Its just like match fixing in any other sports, you give each other free wins in order to gain advantages(trophy/achievement). Blizzard should do something about it. Actually, this also reveals another flaw of Bnet 2.0, if you quit the match right away the other person still got a win. I think they need to make it 2-3 mins just like in BW/WC3.
For people said that this didnt affect you, so its not cheat. I dont agree, this may not affect you in anyway but it affects others. Think about someone that also in Bronze but put true efforts in earning his achievements and this is unfair for him.
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On October 29 2010 13:09 Caphe wrote:
From my POV this is definately cheating. Its just like match fixing in any other sports, you give each other free wins in order to gain advantages(trophy/achievement). Blizzard should do something about it. Actually, this also reveals another flaw of Bnet 2.0, if you quit the match right away the other person still got a win. I think they need to make it 2-3 mins just like in BW/WC3.
For people said that this didnt affect you, so its not cheat. I dont agree, this may not affect you in anyway but it affects others. Think about someone that also in Bronze but put true efforts in earning his achievements and this is unfair for him.
So what if someone just 6pool and worker rushes every game to get it? Is it unfair to the people who are playing standard length games?
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On October 29 2010 13:06 Skillz_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 07:51 Resilient wrote:On October 29 2010 07:30 Skillz_Man wrote:
I don't understand the complaining tbh. They by no means are breaking the rules, are you jealous they'll have more portraits than you because they do it a nolife way? Well it doesn't matter, no rules broken, what do you have against it people?
I personally did it for 750 Protoss wins since I LOVE the Selendis portrait, and I really wanted to have it... I play 1v1 in custom so it would take a loong time for me to get since I don't ladder.
Selendis is from team games though, so you did harm other players. I don't see a problem with doing it in 1v1 but it was pretty lame leaving your allies to finish a game for you in a team game. Me and a friend did it together, so we weren't harming anyone. Also with the idea of a time limit... It doesn't solve anything. Think of it this way. If the time limit is 2-3 minutes, if the game is less than that, game is a draw. So in this case you could fast expand every game, and you scouted cheese, you could just leave... But if you make it 1 minute or less, well then waiting for a minute to leave wouldn't be that bad. There is no real solution to this unless you want to resort to banning or something which I think is unfair.
Actually, I think waiting for 1 minute is enough to deter a lot of people.
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i'm not getting it... a bronze players with 88 points with a lot games played?
what's the problem? really?
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"Oh no they are going to get an avatar before me!"
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So to sum up the general consensus:
"Cheating is okay as long as it doesn't affect me personally. In fact, since I don't give two shits about the rewards they're trying to gain by cheating, it's not really cheating at all. The world, nay, the universe revolves around me and my value judgements. Win trading to get in the top 200 would be a bad thing, because one can only have skill if a leaderboard proclaims it to the world. Win trading to get portraits is not an issue because getting 4000 wins is a personal goal and you shouldn't care if other people get it with far less effort than intended."
<insert random comment equivocating win trading with successfully cheesing 4000 times>
Glad we had this discussion (again).
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On October 28 2010 22:42 Manifesto7 wrote:
Who cares. I can't imagine a worse use of the limited time we have on earth than win trading on SC2. Let them waste their life.
Because hitting "Search for game" and then "Surrender" while watching TV is a terrible waste of the finite calories expended to move your index finger down twice every few minutes. God help them if they do something even more time-and-attention-consuming, like chewing gum or picking their noses.
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I still dont see this as a clear-cut case of cheating, i think that is what the general consencus is.
They dont play the game the way you want them to play it, or for the same reason, therefore they are cheating?
Could it be considered cheating by Blizzard? Quite possibly, but they might also ignore it since it is within the constrains of the current ladder system and it does not affect anyone else!
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1. click a button 2. F10+n 3. repeat
Do that for hours. They'll get my pity, at least.
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On October 29 2010 15:53 DND_Enkil wrote:
They dont play the game the way you want them to play it, or for the same reason, therefore they are cheating?
I don't personally care about portraits. And I certainly don't care if they play the way I want them to play.
But they're not playing the game the way BLIZZARD wants them to play it. The ladder should not be manipulated. This is win trading, and people were actioned to hell and back in WoW for that. And that wasn't for anything tangible either, just a silly title and a cosmetic in-game mount (a $25 value!).
If Blizzard just wanted them to get 4000 wins by any means necessary, they wouldn't have stipulated the use of the ladder. There's no fucking way you can argue that tricking the ladder into matching you with people you agreed to win trade with is okay.
You can say you don't care. That's a perfectly reasonable position. But thinking that it's not cheating because you don't care, or because there's no specific clause in the TOS prohibiting you from that exact method of cheating, those are infantile positions.
Just like your third grade teacher didn't need forensic evidence proving that your dog did not in fact eat your homework to give you a failing grade, Blizzard doesn't need to spell every infraction out for you.
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The "problem" doesnt matter as its really just about the archivements, the worst part of SC.
I mean cmon archivements just produce annoying bad cheats/hacks/exploits and nobody that really plays the game (high diamond) cares for them anyway.
The battlenet system lacks a lot, but as long as your "real" Rating matters and not just your amount of wins nobody will get in Top 200 just by "cheating" the system.
*And if they do, i am sure they will get banned or somehow "removed" from the ladder.
Just imagine someone in Grand master that cant even play at all , how emberrasing must that be ?
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On October 29 2010 16:09 TheOnlyOne wrote:
I mean cmon archivements just produce annoying bad cheats/hacks/exploits and nobody that really plays the game (high diamond) cares for them anyway.
Only 1% of all players matter. They are in fact the only ones really playing the game.
Blizzard makes money by spending $100,000,000 making games that they then sell to 10 000 people for $60 a pop. They're frickin' geniuses.
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On October 29 2010 12:16 phaded wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 08:17 zomgtossrush wrote:
I don't think anyone has brought this up yet.
The problem is that if a significant amount of people do this, it can scew the race win stats. And blizzard is trying t balance their game using stats from all across the leagues. They wouldn't bother, the stats mean nothing. Terran would have like a 90%+ win rate vs Random at low bronze because every worker rusher just autoleaves vs Terran.
yeah, but these statistics are actually influencing the blizzard balance team, as stated in the multiplayer panel at blizzcon. There isn't as much weight in the bronze stats, but they are still looked at.
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Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 15:53 DND_Enkil wrote:
They dont play the game the way you want them to play it, or for the same reason, therefore they are cheating? I don't personally care about portraits. And I certainly don't care if they play the way I want them to play. But they're not playing the game the way BLIZZARD wants them to play it. The ladder should not be manipulated. This is win trading, and people were actioned to hell and back in WoW for that. And that wasn't for anything tangible either, just a silly title and a cosmetic in-game mount (a $25 value!).
But, then let Blizzard deal with it if they think it is an issue? If Blizzard do not deal with it they dont think it is an issue and are fine with it?
Could not really care less what they did or did not do in WoW, different game and quite possible different people making the decisions.
If Blizzard just wanted them to get 4000 wins by any means necessary, they wouldn't have stipulated the use of the ladder. There's no fucking way you can argue that tricking the ladder into matching you with people you agreed to win trade with is okay.
Of cource i can argue for it, actually i am arguing for it as is several others in this thread.
You can say you don't care. That's a perfectly reasonable position. But thinking that it's not cheating because you don't care, or because there's no specific clause in the TOS prohibiting you from that exact method of cheating, those are infantile positions.
I dont think it is cheating because i dont care, i am saying it is up to Blizzard to decide if this is cheating or not and if they wish to take action against it. Not you. Not me. Not TL.
Thinking that it is cheating because it does not match your personal opinion on what is morally okay is an equally infantile position. There are literally TONS of games where bottom-of-the-barrel win trading is allowed if the only gain is achivements/similar, Blizard has of yet to make a stand on this and therefore screaming "CHEAT" is just plain wrong.
They are working within the contrains of Bnet, they are not using any 3rd-party program. They are exploiting the matchmaking system, if this is a big enough infiction for Blizzard to take the time and ban them (or just remove the games played) then yes it is cheating. If not, then it is allowed.
Just like your third grade teacher didn't need forensic evidence proving that your dog did not in fact eat your homework to give you a failing grade, Blizzard doesn't need to spell every infraction out for you.
Just to be clear i am not doing this, dont have the time and value my ranking to much. And yeah, it is Blizzards house if they want to punish this they certainly have every right to do so. But until they do, there is very little to suggest it is cheating. Submit a ticket and see what response you get.
Personally, i think Blizzard agrees with most here, it is not hurting anyone and if they want to sink loads of time joining an quitting games no skin of our nose.
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im indifferent about this, if they wanna flash around there e-penis about there avatars fine but i could care less
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On October 29 2010 15:36 kojinshugi wrote:
So to sum up the general consensus:
"Cheating is okay as long as it doesn't affect me personally. In fact, since I don't give two shits about the rewards they're trying to gain by cheating, it's not really cheating at all. The world, nay, the universe revolves around me and my value judgements. Win trading to get in the top 200 would be a bad thing, because one can only have skill if a leaderboard proclaims it to the world. Win trading to get portraits is not an issue because getting 4000 wins is a personal goal and you shouldn't care if other people get it with far less effort than intended."
<insert random comment equivocating win trading with successfully cheesing 4000 times>
Glad we had this discussion (again).
R U SIRIUS?
Seriously, Blizzard won't rush to ban something this innocuous because it makes the game FUN for those cheesers, even if it's abusing the system. And please stop with the slippery slope arguments, you're setting up a straw man. There IS A BIG DIFFERENCE between cheating (like map-hacking) when it is both highly visible (ladderboard?) and which harms others, compared to cheating to get achievement portraits, which harms...no one.
Are you the guy which actively stops other people from jaywalking across a road? We get it, win-trading is WRONG, doesn't mean that you have to get so worked up over it. How about you complain about something worthwhile instead, like imba
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On October 29 2010 16:49 DND_Enkil wrote:
I dont think it is cheating because i dont care, i am saying it is up to Blizzard to decide if this is cheating or not and if they wish to take action against it. Not you. Not me. Not TL.
I'm fully aware of the fact that we are in fact not in charge of Blizzard's policies. I'm not even calling for anyone to be banned or receive any sort of account action because of it.
I'm stating and defending my opinion (on whether this is cheating or not), just like you are stating and defending yours. I'm also giving examples of Blizzard's behavior in the past when it comes to these supposedly grey areas of what's cheating and what isn't.
I'm not going to lose any sleep over this issue. I'm not going to report win traders. I just take issue with the attitude of many people in this thread, i.e. "Whatever I don't give a shit about is something no one else should give a shit about either."
I don't personally care about portraits and rewards, just like I don't personally care about LAN support. They're both things that don't affect me. But I can still sympathize with people for whom those issues are important.
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On October 29 2010 17:03 Daniel C wrote:
There IS A BIG DIFFERENCE between cheating (like map-hacking) when it is both highly visible (ladderboard?) and which harms others, compared to cheating to get achievement portraits, which harms...no one.
How does being #2 instead of #1 in the US Top 200 because of map hacks "harm" someone any more than being the second guy instead of the first guy with Dark Voice because of ladder cheating?
You're arbitrarily holding your personal preferences to a higher standard than other people's personal preferences.
Are you the guy which actively stops other people from jaywalking across a road? We get it, win-trading is WRONG, doesn't mean that you have to get so worked up over it. How about you complain about something worthwhile instead, like imba
I'm not worked up about win trading. I barely even care. What I might be worked up about is the intellectual laziness and myopia of my fellow posters, who are defending this crap.
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On October 29 2010 17:10 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 17:03 Daniel C wrote:
There IS A BIG DIFFERENCE between cheating (like map-hacking) when it is both highly visible (ladderboard?) and which harms others, compared to cheating to get achievement portraits, which harms...no one. How does being #2 instead of #1 in the US Top 200 because of map hacks "harm" someone any more than being the second guy instead of the first guy with Dark Voice because of ladder cheating? You're arbitrarily holding your personal preferences to a higher standard than other people's personal preferences. Show nested quote +Are you the guy which actively stops other people from jaywalking across a road? We get it, win-trading is WRONG, doesn't mean that you have to get so worked up over it. How about you complain about something worthwhile instead, like imba I'm not worked up about win trading. I barely even care. What I might be worked up about is the intellectual laziness and myopia of my fellow posters, who are defending this crap.
OK, since you're going to argue it that way, you're right, my personal preference is "arbitrary". Then what makes YOUR preference any less arbitrary than mine????
Two solutions: either a higher authority (Blizzard) lays down the law, or we have a consensus by popular opinion. You've obviously lost the battle of popular opinion, so your only choice is to go to Blizzard. Good luck
Edit: I'm not arguing whether it's right or wrong, only whether it's appropriate to get all fussed up about it. For the record, I think it's wrong.
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On October 29 2010 16:49 DND_Enkil wrote:
I dont think it is cheating because i dont care, i am saying it is up to Blizzard to decide if this is cheating or not and if they wish to take action against it. Not you. Not me. Not TL.
Thinking that it is cheating because it does not match your personal opinion on what is morally okay is an equally infantile position. There are literally TONS of games where bottom-of-the-barrel win trading is allowed if the only gain is achivements/similar, Blizard has of yet to make a stand on this and therefore screaming "CHEAT" is just plain wrong.
It is up to Blizzard to decide!? What is that supposed to mean? What happened to good old "thinking for yourself"? This attitude strikingly reminds me of the infamous "it-is-only-a-foul-if-the-referee-sees-it"-line of argumentation. These guys are trading wins on a ladder in order to get achievements. Of course this constitutes cheating - in any meaningful understanding of the term. They "trick" the system in order to farm wins and therefore manipulate their win/loss ratio. How does the fact that you and/or others don't care about achievements change anything about that?
Obviously, they don't seem to harm anyone and that needs to be taken into account when deciding on a reaction. And it may well be that it is better for everybody if those guys continue win trading and don't go back to worker rushing beginners. But a cheat remains a cheat, even if no harm is done. This is not personal opinion, but common sense.
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On October 29 2010 17:20 MiraMax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 16:49 DND_Enkil wrote:
I dont think it is cheating because i dont care, i am saying it is up to Blizzard to decide if this is cheating or not and if they wish to take action against it. Not you. Not me. Not TL.
Thinking that it is cheating because it does not match your personal opinion on what is morally okay is an equally infantile position. There are literally TONS of games where bottom-of-the-barrel win trading is allowed if the only gain is achivements/similar, Blizard has of yet to make a stand on this and therefore screaming "CHEAT" is just plain wrong.
It is up to Blizzard to decide!? What is that supposed to mean? What happened to good old "thinking for yourself"? This attitude strikingly reminds me of the infamous "it-is-only-a-foul-if-the-referee-sees-it"-line of argumentation. These guys are trading wins on a ladder in order to get achievements. Of course this constitutes cheating - in any meaningful understanding of the term. They "trick" the system in order to farm wins and therefore manipulate their win/loss ratio. How does the fact that you and/or others don't care about achievements change anything about that? Obviously, they don't seem to harm anyone and that needs to be taken into account when deciding on a reaction. And it may well be that it is better for everybody if those guys continue win trading and don't go back to worker rushing beginners. But a cheat remains a cheat, even if no harm is done. This is not personal opinion, but common sense.
The reason people aren't upset is that these people aren't farming wins to get a result that matters, I.E. a high ladder position. That's the part of getting wins that needs to be protected. Literally every user will get one of these portraits as long as they are willing to keep playing ladder games for long enough. Every single one of us will have a 1k wins portrait of some kind given enough time.
So they're not getting anything you can't get, they're just getting it slightly faster, and the opportunity cost for that extra speed is to put themselves so far at the bottom of the bronze ladder that the Chilean miners are giving them advice on how to survive down there.
If they were using win trading to get results that matter, I.E. climbing the ladder ratings unfairly, that would be a result that you couldn't duplicate fairly given time, and it would be a concern. All that these players have really done is established a league lower than Bronze. A "dirt league" where you get portraits really fast but brand yourself as a pretty big scrub.
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On October 29 2010 17:20 MiraMax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 16:49 DND_Enkil wrote:
I dont think it is cheating because i dont care, i am saying it is up to Blizzard to decide if this is cheating or not and if they wish to take action against it. Not you. Not me. Not TL.
Thinking that it is cheating because it does not match your personal opinion on what is morally okay is an equally infantile position. There are literally TONS of games where bottom-of-the-barrel win trading is allowed if the only gain is achivements/similar, Blizard has of yet to make a stand on this and therefore screaming "CHEAT" is just plain wrong.
It is up to Blizzard to decide!? What is that supposed to mean? What happened to good old "thinking for yourself"? This attitude strikingly reminds me of the infamous "it-is-only-a-foul-if-the-referee-sees-it"-line of argumentation. These guys are trading wins on a ladder in order to get achievements. Of course this constitutes cheating - in any meaningful understanding of the term. They "trick" the system in order to farm wins and therefore manipulate their win/loss ratio. How does the fact that you and/or others don't care about achievements change anything about that?
Okay in my opinion this is not cheating.
Foul of the line is completely different, it is clearly against the rules and is just about not being caught. They dont really manipulate the win/loss ratio, just the number of wins. And they dont trick the system as much as play versus opponents who only do the same as a natural extension of playing only for achievements. If they go up against someone who does not win-trade, something that i assume happens, that person will get free wins and his MMR will go up until he no longer is matched against win-traders.
Obviously, they don't seem to harm anyone and that needs to be taken into account when deciding on a reaction. And it may well be that it is better for everybody if those guys continue win trading and don't go back to worker rushing beginners. But a cheat remains a cheat, even if no harm is done. This is not personal opinion, but common sense.
And i ask AGAIN, what rule do the break? You say this is a cheat beacause they dont play the way you think the game should be played. If Blizzard goes out and says wintrading for achivements is forbidden then yes it is cheating.
I will use a comparison, the infamous Spitball in baseball (smearing the ball with spit/other substance to make it harder to hit). This was obviously not something *intended* when baseball rules where created but it was within the rules of the game and players who did it was probably frownded upon but not many called them cheaters and no legal action was taken against any player doing this prior to the rules where changed and spitballs where forbidden.
Did they cheat back then? No they exploited a hole in the rules. That hole was later plugged because it had a big impact on the game.
In this case Blizzard has the right to punish players for using a weakness in the system to farm wins, if they choose to do this or not is up to them and i se nothing that makes this cheating until such a time they do.
They are not playing the game to win, they are playing the game to get achievements and taking the shortest route they can. They play for different reasons than you, with different goals, this does not autimaticly make it cheating.
Dont feels like i am getting anywhere here, my personal opinion is let them waste thier time there if they want to. But if Blizzard choose to take action and forbid it i dont care much about that either.
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On October 29 2010 18:23 DND_Enkil wrote:
And i ask AGAIN, what rule do the break? You say this is a cheat beacause they dont play the way you think the game should be played. If Blizzard goes out and says wintrading for achivements is forbidden then yes it is cheating.
They are trading wins. If you play in a poker round and two guys secretly team up devising a code to help each other out and trade chips, then what rule are they breaking exactly? Or if someone tries to see your cards? Is he breaking a rule? What if you are just holding the cards a bit awkwardly and he simply takes advantage of this? He is just taking the shortest route to win, isn't he?
There are rules to games which don't need to be written down. You cannot expect that a set of rules covers any possibility and sure there are cases when it might be unclear if something crosses the line to cheating (your spitball example might be a good one). But intentionally losing to give yourself or others an advantage constitutes "cheating" under any circumstance I can think of. I think you would even agree in many other circumstances, but simply here not. Why do you make a special excuse here? Because noone is negatively affected? That would be the only argument I oculd think of, but it's a bad one if you want to decide on whether it's cheating or not. You cheat for getting an advantage, and they certainly get one. It's a good argument when deciding on whether something should be done about this type of cheating and I think there shouldn't. But a cheat is a cheat!
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What if you hold a poker event, and a few of the people who show up go off to a table in the corner and start playing some stupid game where they trade chips all the time and see each others' cards? Is that a cheat or is it just some guys wasting their time?
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If you've paid any attention to the pvp scene in WoW, you'd know that Blizzard does not intentionally tolerate win-trading. If they're not slapping down some magical cure to 'fix it,' it's because it's one of those problems that's very difficult to fix without revamping the whole system. The bandaid, for the moment, is punishing excessive win-traders on a case by case basis. If this isn't done, then the issue, like hacks, often balloons out of control and ruins the entire play environment simply due to how prolific it is. You'll probably never stop it, not till someone comes up with an innovative ranking system better than anything we've seen before, but that doesn't mean you should turn a blind eye to it.
There will always be a few bad apples who attempt to game the system. That doesn't mean achievements aren't a good feature. It just means that more thought needs to be put into how achievements are designed, so that they discourage quick grinding or farming tactics, like skipping actually playing the game to rack up artificial win statistics. I've never been a big fan of 'get X wins' style achievements for this very reason. For example, achievements could be tweaked to only count victories that took at least five minutes to achieve. There would still be win traders, but the time investment would be so much more that far fewer people would be interested in doing it.
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All it would take to fix this is making it so that if you are 0 or negative bronze league you can que up against anyone who is... say <= 500pts bronze (or w.e threshold is reasonable). This would ensure they can't match up against eachother every game, and would force them to at least worker rush or 6pool every game. (Which is a legit way to win regardless of how many games the person is intentionally losing to be in copper). If you are like 15pts in bronze its not like there is a huge skill gap between you and those with 500pts in bronze. Everyone who plays at that level is so bad that usually its a rock-paper-scissors game anyways, it really doesn't do any harm bunching everyone at the bottom into a 500 (or w.e size) block where they are treated as equal MMR.
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EPT
